She never apologize

[Dr.Me2]

Over the years I noticed my uBPDw she never really admitted she was wrong and apologize.

Even when as she returned to baseline and there are small signs of slight awareness of her disprortionate behaviour but all that falls short from apologizing for the DV, rage and emotional abuse that I have experienced throughout the years.

How she use the tool of blaming me to manipulate the situation and turn her shame into blaming me is beyond me.

If I respond then things will escalate, if I don't respond things will escalate too. 

[missy b]

Bordeline partners have difficulty saying they are sorry and they manipulate us so at the end we feel we are the ones to blame.There is no real solution but keep close contacts with others so not to get isolated

Good luk

[waverider]

Difficulty in apologizing is common. This is based in extreme all or nothing thinking. To accept responsibility  means complete failure, not only in this but in everything. This can sink into feeling worthless and depression.

To avoid being seen to be at fault is almost a survival instinct for someone with low self confidence. The more self confident you are the easier it is to admit responsibility without it really bothering you.

they manipulate us so at the end we feel we are the ones to blame.

This is projection at work. Their issues becomes yours, hence lessening their load. It is usually pretty subconscious, even if you point it out they will still deny it. Not engaging in it is the only way to deal with it. Arguing about it just completes the projection and validates in their eyes that you are the one with the issue.

[SoftLanding]

Sorry this happened to you Dr.Me2.  Unfortunately I know how you feel.

Waverider, I read your response with interest and have a comment. My uBPDbf never accepts blame, but like Dr.Me2 said about his wife, does acknowledge during regulated times that he's knows he's not perfect.  However, my passive acceptance of all blame gives him fodder during future dysregulated periods.  He'll use his revision of the issues to throw things back in my face during later ragings.  There is absolutely no give and take.  It's all about him 24/7/365... .and that's very exhausting.

I always use the SET and JADE tools and it appears they work like a charm for keeping the peace most of the time, but they leave me needing something more for myself. I mainly hang in the Staying forum, but I'm finding myself in the Undecided more and more as time goes on... .and that makes me sad. 

I moved a great distance to be with him back in the beginning (2.5 years ago) and unfortunately allowed myself to become isolated.  The only friends I've made here were either his or their spouses.  The ones that remain in our circle have no idea.  I've thought about contacting the ones he axed, but there's always the chance of gossip with the ones who are still mutual friends and I can't risk that.

Anyway... .I'm not trying to hijack this thread so I'll make my own.  I just wanted to comment on the experiences I've had with not trying to deflect the blame and projection that comes my way.

[Dr.Me2]

Arguing about it just completes the projection and validates in their eyes that you are the one with the issue.

So engaging is a non-starter with a BPD and yet not engaging them and remaining silent when you are being attacked with their blame-game may lead them to believe you agree with them or have nothing to say against.

Validating their feelings while they are using the blame-game to project their shame unto you, transferring the guilt does create a debilitating vicious cycle.

[waverider]

Arguing about it just completes the projection and validates in their eyes that you are the one with the issue.

So engaging is a non-starter with a BPD and yet not engaging them and remaining silent when you are being attacked with their blame-game may lead them to believe you agree with them or have nothing to say against.

Validating their feelings while they are using the blame-game to project their shame unto you, transferring the guilt does create a debilitating vicious cycle.

For important issues you use the SET principles followed by disengaging and not getting involved,. What they are left believing is their problem, you are not going to convince them of anything accept that you are argumentative. You have your truth you don't have to convince anyone of it.

There is probably a lot of trivial stuff that is not even worth answering, that does not make you a doormat

Only accept responsibility for your own part, never the whole. You need only do that simply, and once. As much to know in yourself you have acted fairly.

Just because someone slings mud at you does not mean you have to catch it, or throw it back. The game soon becomes dull for the mud slinger.

Dont try to "out bicker" a pwBPD, they are the experts.

Dont put too much weight in apologies from a pwBPD even if they are forthcoming, they are often not long lasting and will be overwritten quickly if no longer convenient. Sometimes they come as part of the idealization swing, and that is part of the Disorder also, they rarely come from a balanced and long lasting place.

[waverider]

I always use the SET and JADE tools and it appears they work like a charm for keeping the peace most of the time, but they leave me needing something more for myself. I mainly hang in the Staying forum, but I'm finding myself in the Undecided more and more as time goes on... .and that makes me sad. 

The advantages of spending time using the staying tools is that even if it falls apart you will have a better understanding of why, and will recover better

[EdR]

Just wanted to say: thank you guys. A very helpful and informative thread!  

I also experienced this, but I have a question: when she should have apologized for something (or when she felt me coming close... or after she expressed herself liking me), she would most often trigger her Silent Treatment.

After a while, she would just:

-re-initiate contact herself,

-eventually answer one of my simple, down to earth, posts (never the: 'why' or 'I'm hurt' ones)

-be overly nice and enthusiastic when I would run into her

In all 3 examples, there never was a 'closure' or 'apology'. It was just like: just pretend it never happened and go on with the show.

My question to you guys is this: Is this the way we should have coped with it (I am on the leaving board)? I tried, but it felt so... .frustrating.

This is not a rhetorical question by the way. I am really interested to know what you guys think, and what -according to you- the best approach is/should have been.

[Dr.Me2]

EdR,

In my case the only sign that she is heading to baseline, let alone no signs of even a non-explicit apology, is when she uses day do day chores pretending is all normal and to try to get me back.

It has worked for her in the past due to my willing to take any opportunity to return to "peace", unfortunately is always been short lived. Just as momentum gathers to improve the situation she finds ways to sabotage and set me for failure. I am not talking walking on eggshells, in my case there are land mines set and ready to explode with the smallest trigger.

I am confused and frustrated now as I realize I am suffering in pain from all these years of rage, attacks and violence. I know that he emotional reaction is my problem and need to work on this as it affects me at the core, it is just I never thought I will come to feel this confused and frustrated.

She does not want to admit there is anything wrong with her other the some temperament and yet I have experienced and carefully observed over the last couple of years 8 out of the 9 symptoms in BPD.

Exhausted.

[EdR]

Thank you. It's weird though... .all these similarities. I keep seeing new ones everytime I read a thread on these boards.

I am a bit confused because of the 'boundaries' and 'triggering' paradox... but I'll probably create a new topic for that.

[waverider]

Bottom line what we are trying to achieve as a stayer is minimum conflict, reducing your own internal stress and tension to a tenable level. A happy and worthwhile life.

This will not be achieved by attempting to make anyone else change their personality to conform to what we believe is right or the normal.

This leads us to us tackling things from both ends. Reigning in a lot of their triggers and over reactions as a result of the way we interact with them. Changing what we perceive as acceptable behavior.

A part of this is our expectations in regards to apologies. If the pursuit of an apology causes stress then it is not worth the result.

We have to learn not to be stubborn. Understanding why people behave the way they do is more important than the actual words that come out of their mouths.

Each BPD relationship is unique, you have to throw away standard RS templates and be creative and accept a lot of eccentric behavior.

[SoftLanding]

For me, the best approach, meaning the least stressful for myself, is to disengage and walk away and wait to see what happens.  I can't tolerate the drama.  I don't expect apologies any more because there are none... .ever.  When he's ready, he basically acts like nothing happened.  I'm constantly working on lowering my expectations.  If the bar gets too low, I imagine I'll just have to walk away.

[Dr.Me2]

Softlanding,

I agree, the bar is getting so low in terms of expectations that in my case can be hardly be called a r/s.

[Dr.Me2]

If I walk away and see what happens she will use the kids as shields and emotional blackmail  :'(

[Dr.Me2]

Just read this from the book  "Beyond boundaries":

when BPD says "You are a bad Father and the children hates you"

Means 

"I feel I am a terrible Mother and the children hate me"

It is hard to just focus on her negative feelings without paying attention to the content as she tries to manipulate through making me feel guilty as she persists over and over.

If shame is so deeply seated with this disorder why then casting off the shame by trying to transfer the guilt to me no matter what I do becomes such an emotional and charging event for her if in fact she is convinced of that?

[Somewhere]

I suppose this is just reason #472 that it is called a Personality Disorder.  Like trying get something out of a vending or soda machine that has "disordered."  Press a button and you have no idea what will come out, except not what you were looking for.

Had an interesting conversation with the Father in Law earlier this year regarding Mrs. Somewhere.  (sort of diagnosed Borderline Traits, on top of Addictions -- I say sort of because she immediately quit the T who said that).

Since I am doing Alanon, and now the kids Alateen due to her crazy stuff, and she is pretty much "dry drunking" the AA side of the house we have that model to work from.

Conversation went like this.

Me:  (quoting Alanon stuff)  I cannot Control, Cure, nor Cause her problems.

FIL:  She (Mrs. Somewhere) is your wife.  You should be able to control her.

Me:  Can YOU Control her?

FIL:  (sad laugh) I guess that is true enough.

Me.  I am just amazed she is supposed to be working a 12 step program with no apologies.

FIL:  What I have figure out is she Rarely says Thank You, and NEVER says she is Sorry.

Me:  Will true dat.

Wonder why he waited 13 years to tell me that.



 

[Dr.Me2]

I can say that one time she apologized to everyone (a life time event) where we thought is going to start a clean slate to move on and as she is apologizing for everything she not only broke into tears but you can also tell part of her (Mrs. Hyde) refused to apologize and as she broke into tears I thought the r/s was reset. NOT

Then a few weeks went by and,a small trigger brought back what in her mind were the same negative memories that were so supposed to be  "forgiven" and went again into a rage of anger and violence perhaps more intense than before.

Instead of resetting the r/s and start a new constructive cycle it was very quickly sabotaged by all the emotional baggage she carries before she met me. She refuse to go to T.

Never admitted there is something wrong with her other than some temperamental burst, yet I have to leave the house as the emotional and verbal DV, in front of the kids, started to become physical.

[Chicken Soup]

I am not talking walking on eggshells, in my case there are land mines set and ready to explode with the smallest trigger.

I asked my uBPDw if she was aware if that I was getting low on white socks.  I then got a lecture on how the only time I can ask her about the laundry is if I need something washed.  All I was expecting was a simple "yes".

[Dr.Me2]

The target if blame (us) receives a disproportionate angry reaction for the simplest little things. Put and outsider in the scene and all of a sudden they can control themselves and their impulse.

[Chicken Soup]

I'd like to thank everyone for the help dealing with a pwBPD.  I really felt like curling up in a ball this weekend. 

Reading up on BPD on the website has helped me realize I have choices on how to deal with my uBPDw.

[Dr.Me2]

Chicken Soup,

We are all here or you.  You are the only one that can save your uBDw from the dark forces, even if you don't know how (just like me).

And reflecting on the dark forces that bringing us all to this, we need to become guardians of the peace and justice in their world, otherwise they are the ones that are going to destroy themselves if we don't save them.

May the force be with you so to speak!

[Chicken Soup]

Dr.Me2:

I gave up trying to save my wife a long time ago.  I'm trying to save my sanity.

From experience, I know people only get well when they want to get well.

In the meantime, reading "bpdfamily.com" has opened up a ray of sunshine in my head.  I remember the circular arguments my wife and I had ten years ago about whether to have a fourth child (she yes, me no).  I finally realized she didn't care what my feeling were about the matter.  So I stopped arguing with her.

[hergestridge]

Ok, as an adult I suppose one can learn not to expect an apology and get used to pretending like nothing happened (although I think it's not to reccomend for your own mental health) when the BPD person gets out of his sulk, but is this working out when kids are involved?

I know from experience that BPD people behaves like this towards their own kids. The kids never get an apology from BPD mum/dad and they have a harder time intellectualizing about the whole thing and they don't care about "BPD". When they finally learn to adapt, it's a dangerous lesson IMO. They learn to let dysfunctional people into their lives, adapt to their abusive behaviors and become (frankly) doormats themselves.

I am not writing this to moralize over someone's decisions. I have a child myself togehter with a BPD woman and I am currently in agony over the whole situation and I find the whole scene very, very problematic. 

[Dr.Me2]

I always wondered why I have not been able to bond with my uBPDw over the years. I reflect that, I order to bond both parties need to know and admit when they are wrong and apologize by accepting they are vulnerable.

Without it there can be no real bonding and this is why is so difficult to establish one with a pwBPD. To apologize means to accept your own vulnerabilities and take responsibilities for your actions and behavior when they have affected others or yourself.

The deep seated shame makes the disproportionate behavior in a pwBPD justify the denial of their vulnerabilities since by admitting them, they feel shameful and the more shame the more the deep seated shame drives the lack of apology again and again.

[maxsterling]

Yes, this is my experience, too.

I've noticed recently that she may get to a point where it's apparent that she understands her behavior is not healthy and tell me she has changed her behavior, but never to the point of actually apologizing for what has already happened. 

Example:  yesterday she mentioned that our house was messy, and that she now realizes that she is also at fault for the house being messy, and acknowledged that before she blamed it all on me.  The truth is that most of the mess is hers, and that I have done 95% of whatever cleaning has been done the past 6 months.  And she criticized me over this NONSTOP for months, blamed my "mess" for her being unhappy, yelled, screamed, and insulted, and can now acknowledge the mess was hers all along, but can't yet apologize for the hurt she put me through in the process.  It was one of those things where she may have papers strewn all over the table, but she will nitpick me over the one coffee cup I left on the patio table outside.  And the house is *not* that messy.  But after that acknowledgement, she did then add that she thinks part of the reason she is so messy is that the house isn't very well set up for storage.   I could have agreed with that statement when she first moved in, and since I have added new shelves, new cabinets, new hooks, bought new storage containers, and NOTHING has changed.  The house being not well set up for storage is another excuse.  So here was a situation where she seems aware she is at fault for something, but there is always a "but", and usually never really an "I'm sorry".  For now, I'll take it so long as the blaming stops. 

I've also noticed when she does apologize, it's usually twisted to be about her.  "I'm sorry I am so depressed and bhity sometimes" as opposed to "I'm sorry I hurt you by screaming at you."

One more thing - I have also noticed that she will want an apology from someone else for something that person did to her, but she does it to someone else, she sees no reason to apologize.  She likes to complain that her dad never owns up to the hurtful things he does to her, but when she does almost the exact same thing to me, *she* never owns up to it.

I freely recognize even nonBPD (including myself) can be bad at apologies sometimes, but this just seems different with pwBPD

[hergestridge]

One more thing - I have also noticed that she will want an apology from someone else for something that person did to her, but she does it to someone else, she sees no reason to apologize.  She likes to complain that her dad never owns up to the hurtful things he does to her, but when she does almost the exact same thing to me, *she* never owns up to it.

My BPD wife expects our three year old child to apologize to her when she's been she's done something wrong, but when my wife's lost her temper and threw a tantrum to the extent that the poor child has become scared - she doesn't apologize. She goes "Now look what you made mommy do" instead - pushing the blame back at the child.

Afterwards she's having an awful guilt trip and is suicidal and all the usual crap, but apologizing is simply out of the question. Especially the times when she's really f**ked up.

[Dr.Me2]

It like they don't remember or they don't want to remember their dysfunctional behavior and how their rage caused verbal and emotional abuse on the SO.

Apologizing for what? She says as she Attacks back projecting the blame expecting for me to apologize.

[Dr.Me2]

I realize now that the same intensity and lack of impulse control goes either way and both are not only not health but lead to chaos.

If it is a major high it will lead to a painful drop and if it is a major low it will lead to a painful climb.