Scientific Explanation for BPD/NPD, and paternal family alienation - acceptable?

[Pou]

Ok… I am a rational person.  I like scientific thinkings … very simple.  I see the world as 1 plus 1 has to be 2.  But in a real world … dealing with emotions … it rarely is the case.  I think this is exemplified by dealing with BPD / NPDs.  World is upside-down, left and right and you tumble as you try to plant your foot.  Just not possible.  

For me, staying in a NPD relationship requires my mind going hyperdrive … meaning… I need to understand… I need to know what the heck is going on.  On individual level, on partnership level, on family level and on a societal level … and why would human beings evolve with BPD/NPD?  there got to be a reason such bizarre behavior exist at all.  As I start to acknowledge there is a such thing … I started to see people with it popping up everywhere.  Life can not be simple for them, they must input "imaginary" drama ... they must invent something and speak as if they are real ... they don't seem to understand what "promises" and "marriage vows" mean and they have no problem making things up as if words just don't mean anything.  I start to wonder … who is normal here?  Perhaps, it is me trying to stick to he sheer logic and rationality is the abnormal one … perhaps, human beings are not made to be 1 plus 1 equals 2 ?  NPD/BPD are very disruptive … very very disruptive ... their behavior leads to very very bad things … but then again, in evolution, this bad things often leads to selection and only the more superior thrives at the end.  So as I am aching and find it hard to function by staying in a NPD relationship, am I the weak one ?  Is the process of evolution in its tracks on its way to weed me out ?  

I don't know if anyone on this board is in the similar position as I am.  For some reason ... I can not find a friend and/or a family member to open up to.  I tried with them … but later, they kind of avoided this topic …  so I thought wouldn't a true friend care and follow up?  I know I would … but hey, I learned that maybe I am scaring people away with my problems.  So I stopped trying to open up.  Besides, BPD/NPD is a strange thing … not many people really have a grasp of it unless they live through a relationship that has it.  In the real world, I have yet to meet someone who is in a BPD/NPD relationship and having no problem opening up about it.  It seems for men, at least from what I can understand … it is a pride issue.  I start to wonder … is that why some men step out of marriages and relationships and leave family just to get away from all these insanity.  I observed that moms at my kids school are extremely territorial … and that goes to the extent alienating dads and dads' family.  It is not unique to my NPD wife … I say to myself … that is weird... why would women be more territorial than men when comes to kids?  My philosophy is help and allow kids to foster more relationships with all relatives ... but it seems that my wife has other ideas and start up drama just to alienate.  I notice this in some moms at the school and I notice all the dads stay away from school and involved in making decisions in school… Is this healthy for our kids?  If you have kids, haven't anyone notice that schools glorify moms and celebrate mothers day as it should, but completely neglects fathers' day?  Well… I don't get it and society is wondering why there are more dads running away from home then moms ... If moms are practicing alienating kids from dads and paternal side of family … how does one expect dad to stay when he is completely rendered powerless in a family setting?  

I am trying to understand the complexity of BPD/NPD and its effect on family and overall, I notice that the alienating behavior could be a separate issue, but with my wife, it seems to be joined hand in hand.  Perhaps, evolution tells women to do that so they can keep a fixed number of offsprings to help them age.  Meanwhile, men has the ability to father more number of offsprings, so there is not a desire to alienate?   I don't know and I welcome all discussions.  My observation could be unique, so it can be inconclusive, but I just want to post them here for a conversation to get started … does anyone of you also see what I see?  whether you do or don't, please post your observations.  

 

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[formflier]

Ok… I am a rational person.  I like scientific thinkings … very simple.  I see the world as 1 plus 1 has to be 2.  But in a real world … dealing with emotions … it rarely is the case.  I think this is exemplified by dealing with BPD / NPDs.  World is upside-down, left and right and you tumble as you try to plant your foot.  Just not possible.  

For me, staying in a NPD relationship requires my mind going hyperdrive … meaning… I need to understand… I need to know what the heck is going on.  On individual level, on partnership level, on family level and on a societal level … and why would human beings evolve with BPD/NPD?  there got to be a reason such bizarre behavior exist at all.  As I start to acknowledge there is a such thing … I started to see people with it popping up everywhere.  Life can not be simple for them, they must input "imaginary" drama ... they must invent something and speak as if they are real ... they don't seem to understand what "promises" and "marriage vows" mean and they have no problem making things up as if words just don't mean anything.  I start to wonder … who is normal here?  Perhaps, it is me trying to stick to he sheer logic and rationality is the abnormal one … perhaps, human beings are not made to be 1 plus 1 equals 2 ?  NPD/BPD are very disruptive … very very disruptive ... their behavior leads to very very bad things … but then again, in evolution, this bad things often leads to selection and only the more superior thrives at the end.  So as I am aching and find it hard to function by staying in a NPD relationship, am I the weak one ?  Is the process of evolution in its tracks on its way to weed me out ?  

I don't know if anyone on this board is in the similar position as I am.  For some reason ... I can not find a friend and/or a family member to open up to.  I tried with them … but later, they kind of avoided this topic …  so I thought wouldn't a true friend care and follow up?  I know I would … but hey, I learned that maybe I am scaring people away with my problems.  So I stopped trying to open up.  Besides, BPD/NPD is a strange thing … not many people really have a grasp of it unless they live through a relationship that has it.  In the real world, I have yet to meet someone who is in a BPD/NPD relationship and having no problem opening up about it.  It seems for men, at least from what I can understand … it is a pride issue.  I start to wonder … is that why some men step out of marriages and relationships and leave family just to get away from all these insanity.  I observed that moms at my kids school are extremely territorial … and that goes to the extent alienating dads and dads' family.  It is not unique to my NPD wife … I say to myself … that is weird... why would women be more territorial than men when comes to kids?  My philosophy is help and allow kids to foster more relationships with all relatives ... but it seems that my wife has other ideas and start up drama just to alienate.  I notice this in some moms at the school and I notice all the dads stay away from school and involved in making decisions in school… Is this healthy for our kids?  If you have kids, haven't anyone notice that schools glorify moms and celebrate mothers day as it should, but completely neglects fathers' day?  Well… I don't get it and society is wondering why there are more dads running away from home then moms ... If moms are practicing alienating kids from dads and paternal side of family … how does one expect dad to stay when he is completely rendered powerless in a family setting?  

I am trying to understand the complexity of BPD/NPD and its effect on family and overall, I notice that the alienating behavior could be a separate issue, but with my wife, it seems to be joined hand in hand.  Perhaps, evolution tells women to do that so they can keep a fixed number of offsprings to help them age.  Meanwhile, men has the ability to father more number of offsprings, so there is not a desire to alienate?   I don't know and I welcome all discussions.  My observation could be unique, so it can be inconclusive, but I just want to post them here for a conversation to get started … does anyone of you also see what I see?  whether you do or don't, please post your observations.  

Incredibly interesting... .

While I like the practical aspects of this board.

Questions and discussions like this are fascinating.

I'm going to think on it for a bit... and I will come back and post some thoughts later.

[bpbreakout]

Lot's of big questions here, I've though about them too.

Re evolution - it hasn't finished yet so not sure you are necessarily being weeded out. NPD, BPD and co-dependence must have been around for millions of years maybe one can't survive without the other. I hope that as more and more people on the planet get educated on this stuff then the world will become a better place. The more we stop enabling, the more these behaviours will wither and die.

I am heavily involved in helping my kids make decisions with their lives. BPDw accepts it now but definately had major problems as she saw it as her domain and obviously expoected me to just bring home the bacon while she made decisions on behalf of the kids. She comes from a classic NPDhusband/BPDwife FOO so has very traditional views, perhaps all that B/W thinking is related.

Looking forward to seeing some more posts on this

[JohnLove]

Hi Pou. I am bit of an expert in Electronics Technology. I too, enjoy scientific thinking. I like to know how things work. I like to understand things... . the why. I like to approach things logically. I like your post. It demonstrates you are looking for real answers or real truth. I think human beings are not always pure logic... . as in 1+1=3. Humans are (supposed to be) always evolving. I hope ultimately we could be capable of so much more, of so much better.

I am always looking for the root cause... . almost like I think that there is an almost simple answer to explain all of it... . that will in turn cause a revolutionary shift in the thinking of the BPD. That will lead them to behave differently or make better choices or think or feel "normally"?. Is this what has happened in the people that have successfully recovered?... . success and recovery can be subjective to the person involved.

[Pou]

To Bpbreakout, Johnlove ... . I will attempt to address the dynamics of the PDs in a relationship from someone an evolutionary perspective below.  Your input on this matter is welcome.  Everything that I write is a running hypothesis... . simply trying to get feed backs and firm up the hypothesis in seek of the truth. 

Ok... . so I suffered like many of you on this board.  Mostly, my life has been surrounded by women.  I grew up with 2 sisters and 3 girl cousins.  My dad was seldom in the picture.  I started to notice as I grow older is that most women seem to display characteristics of BPD and I believe statistics also says it is around 70% women.  This is where I developed a scientific theory after years of soul searching living with my wife and frequent episodes of demeaning me, redirecting truth, projecting and endless lies (she is an undiagnosed NPD) ... . if you can follow me on this... . can be off, and hypothesis needs some tweaking (you can help here).  As global culture is evolving more equal for men and women, in a strange way, we are deevolving back to the cavemen days.  What do I mean?  A social contract for men and women (marriage) is artificial.  Darwin wanted to see it is true in the birds that he studied and he reported such about how nature favors monogamy, only to be disapproven with genetic analysis that most female birds are carrying offspring from neighboring nests' male birds.  So what does this mean?  To break it down below in bullet points in chronological order:

1) man meets woman and fall in love.

2) man and woman are in love and build a nest together.

3) man is committed and driven to seek resources for the family.  while woman takes care of the offsprings ... as our genetics programmed us to do ... to feel fulfilled with life.

4) while seeking for resources, man will meet other woman and forge reproductive relationships with other women. 

5) These other women (who are already committed to their men) who have inappropriate relationships with other resource seeking men will start to reject their current mates.

6) A form of rejection that is manifested is "personality disorder" as we call them here. 

7) "Personality Disorder" for women becomes more intense in a culture where men are equal to women.  Women has a fixed number of eggs and if they are empowered to secure resources via their own means or through other partners, they are empowered to drive the current mates out via any means.  It is instinctual to maximize diversity in women's reproduction and to ensure survival.  The same reason why men go around and have reproductive relationships with other women.

The problem of today is because our court/legal system favor so much the women, women are abusing it since men are held liable to provide resources to the child that they reproduced.  So women are empowered to have different kids with different men so to broaden their genetic pool and while men (at least for the ones with moderate resources) are becoming more careful in forging the exercise of broadening their gene pools.  Usually the men with a lot resources and very little are the ones that disregard such change.  PD manifested drives men away from their own offspings, which is unnatural for a man, because man's instinct is to foster resources and develop bonds with woman and offsprings to keep that instinct intact.  PD woman breaks that instinctual need to stay with the family and disrupts it in such way to favor PD woman to seek other mates, because her current mate will no longer have the desire to stay. 

Next time, when you see a father leaves his family, look at the mom for such PD. 

Now, genders at times can be reversed as well.  Sometimes it really depends on the situation. 

I think the problem of today, our legal system favors so much to the women and as a result, manipulation of the legal system happens alot.  there is an imbalance and for the society to be healthy, there must be balance to restore a healthy relationship.  PD itself really is just abusive.  It often is severely mental abuse and sometimes it manifests into physical abuse to partners.  However, society don't recognize PDs and seldom know what it is and even with education, PD behaviors are so unbelievable that if you haven't experience it yourself, there is no way you can understand it.  Also even you experienced first hand, you could be in a fog for many years before realizing that you are in a PD relationship. 

So... I thought, well, effective communication will resolve it.  Now we know what it is about, communicate and my NPDw will change.  No, no, no... . my experience is that it is so hardwired, especially if one of the parents has PD, her behavior pattern will be wired to respond exactly that way ... . it is almost impossible to change because they will never ever acknowledge there is something wrong with them.  At times, they may say what is appropriate (hence the charm), but they are wired to believe in their PD world with conviction.  Believe it or not, PDs do do pretty well in a society, because management seems to mistakenly view PD characteristics as creative and with persistence.  In short, they are different, entertaining to see as a train wreck, but sucks when you are in a relationship with one.  These PD people tend to get promoted in our entertainment and insecure corporate culture. 

 

I look forward to your responses and comments.

PS I don't like to visit and/or post on this board, because everytime I do I am reminded my situation ... . uggg... . but need this board like air.  Thanks all for keeping me breathing and sane. 

[enlighten me]

I have to disagree that they are hard wired.

The brain is a computer and gets programed. The program loaded in a PD is from an early age so every other application added revolves around this.

As with all software its possible to rewrite. Unfortunately the longer the PD persists the more applications are attached to it so the harder it becomes to change.

I know this is a very simplified explanation but it is what I believe.

[Pou]

I have to disagree that they are hard wired.

The brain is a computer and gets programed. The program loaded in a PD is from an early age so every other application added revolves around this.

As with all software its possible to rewrite. Unfortunately the longer the PD persists the more applications are attached to it so the harder it becomes to change.

I know this is a very simplified explanation but it is what I believe.

If your idea is true, then it gives hope to all nons that one day, our BPD/NPD partners will be able to be "reprogrammed".  The reason that I see a genetic link is that I see a highly similar behavior pattern between my wife and my in-law.  Both are extremely controlling and they always try to over reach and cross boundaries mentally or in reality.  Their view of the world is that 1) if the ideas did not come from them, they don't acknowledge them.  2) they will take your idea and treat it as if they came up with them without acknowledgement.  3) they are determined to constantly proving to people around them that they know more and unable to take suggestions or advice even when logic is presented in front of their face.  Instead of rationalizing, they start to attack by making up things and leaving you confused if this is the first time you deal with them.  

Honestly, having dealt with people like them and reflecting on a few from past and present ... . speaking to the ones that I suspect having NPD/BPD ... . leaving me to conclude, hoping for them to change is counter productive.  Navigating through their land-mines is extremely time consuming and takes alot out of me.  It is painful to have admit to myself that I have married to a NPD and admitting defeat that they are hardwired.  

If I may allow to modify your idea / hypothesis is that you can probably moderate the severity of NPD / BPD on daily basis and it will fluctuate ... . but at the end of the day, you can not come close curing it.  If you use medication, you will be masking their personality, it is not cured, it will be just masked ... . In a strange way, you can look the north korean leader and say to yourself, well ... . he is programmed to be the way he is ... . to me, you got to be born that way in order to be that delusional and vicious.  I don't think you can re-program someone like that.

[enlighten me]

While I agree there appears to be a genetic link I believe it is more nurture than nature.

As BPD is linked to early development then I feel that at a critical stage in a childs development a key lesson is missed. Because the child grows up and has children of their own they then impart this behaviour on the child. The child learns that lying is acceptable so lies. They learn that they don't have to take responsibility for their actions as their parent has always passed it onto someone else including them. All of this must be acceptable in the childs eyes as their parent who is always right does it.

It acts like a disease by being spread in this manner.

It would be interesting to hear if anyone has had experience of children being separated from the BPD source and if they have developed it.

[enlighten me]

To add an example to my previous post.

Take a child that is raised in a racist environment. That child isn't born a racist but will most likely grow up to be one as his role models are. He will mimic them to gain acceptance and enjoy the praise he receives for doing it. This brain washing is the programing I am on about.

As it is from such an early age the likely hood of a cure is slim as you would have to strip back all their life experiences and memories to that age.

I have heard of an experiment with monkeys. Don't know if its true but I like the story so here it is.

A group of monkeys are put in a cage with some food. Every time they go near the food they get hosed down with cold water. Eventually most of the monkeys give up but 1 or 2 still try and they all get punished. The monkeys that give up start stopping the ones from trying as they don't want to get punished for their behaviour.

Slowly the monkeys are swapped out and as a new one arrives he sees the food and tries to get it. The others beat him up to stop him. Eventually this monkey gives up. The monkeys are swapped out one at a time and the pattern is repeated. Eventually none of the original monkeys who got hosed down are left but the monkeys wont go near the food.

This is an example of how the mind can be reprogrammed even if it doesn't make sense and goes against your very nature.

[Turkish]

Here is something from a study out of Harvard. Food for thought on this discussion... . I see a clear difference between S4 and D2. Our son is more like his mom, can't control his emotions as well, needs constant validation. I think it goes beyond "First Child" Syndrome. D2 is more like me... . controls her emotions, rarely acts out, more passive aggressive and her tantrums manifest themselves in just "stopping," rather than much crying.

uBPDx's family suffered a lot of trauma. Each older sibling witnessed the worst dysfunction. Perhaps the calmest sibling of them all was always like that, she said. Even as a baby, he would just sit there and observe everything. I picked up on his easygoing manner the first time I'd met him. The three older siblings (which includes my Ex) all show BPD traits to varying degrees. None of the three younger ones do that I can see, though the youngest brother (15) does show signs of depression.

Inborn Biogenetic Temperaments

The degree to which Borderline Personality Disorder is caused by inborn factors called the —level of heritability“ is estimated to be 68%. This is about the same as for bipolar disorder.

What is believed to be inherited is not the disorder, per se, but the biogenetic dispositions, i.e. temperaments (or as noted above, phenotypes). Specifically, BPD can develop only in those children who are born with one or more of the three temperaments noted above: Affective Dysregulation, Impulsivity, and Disturbed Attachments. Such temperaments represent an individual‘s predisposition to emotionality, impulsivity, or relationship problems. For children with these temperaments, environmental factors can then significantly delimit or exacerbate these inborn traits.

Many studies have shown that disorders of emotional regulation or impulsivity are disproportionately higher in relatives of BPD patients. The affect/emotion temperament predisposes individuals to being easily upset, angry, depressed, and anxious. The impulsivity temperament predisposes individuals to act without thinking of the consequences, or even to purposefully seek dangerous activities. The disturbed attachment temperament probably starts with extreme sensitivity to separations or rejections. Another theory has proposed that patients with BPD are born with excessive aggression which is genetically based (as opposed to being environmental in origin). A child born with a placid or passive temperament would be unlikely to ever develop BPD.

The fact that girls are more affiliative, and boys more instrumental, is believed to explain why there is a much higher frequency of females (i.e., approximately 75%) with the BPD diagnosis. This suggests that the disorder may be primarily a disorder of relationships. In contrast, antisocial personality disorder occurs disproportionately in males (about 75% of those diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder are male) and is thought to be primarily a disorder of action.

Normal neurological function is needed for such complex tasks as impulse control, regulation of emotions, and perception of social cues. Studies of BPD patients have identified an increased incidence of neurological dysfunctions, often subtle, that are discernible on close examination. The largest portion of the brain is the cerebrum, the upper section, where information is interpreted coming in from the senses, and from which conscious thoughts and voluntary movements are thought to emanate. Preliminary studies have found that individuals with BPD have a diminished serotonergic response to stimulation in these areas of the cerebrum and that the lower levels of brain activity may promote impulsive behavior. The limbic system, located at the center of the brain, is sometimes thought of as —the emotional brain“, and consists of the amygdala, hippocampus, thalamus, hypothalamus, and parts of the brain stem. There is evidence that the volume of the amgydala and hippocampus portions of the brain, so critical for emotional functioning, are smaller in those with BPD. It is not clear whether such neurological irregularities have either genetic or environmental sources.

In summary, research indicates that individuals who have difficulty with impulse control and aggression have reduced levels of activity in their brains in a number of key locations. It is theorized that in persons with BPD, mild to moderate impairments in several systems result in —errors“ in the gathering, dissemination, and interpretation of data, and they are consequently more likely to respond with acts of impulsivity or aggression. ~ John Gunderson, MD (2006)

[enlighten me]

Very interesting article.

I have to admit that while the genetic argument has evidence I do wonder how much the brains development can be affected by how its used.

What I mean is that if the part of the brain that deals with emotions isn't getting them fed to it will it develop the same way?

While 2 siblings being raised in a BPD environment may show different signs is this to do with genetics or the treatment that they have received. Even though parents say they treat their children the same they don't. The lessons hard learned with the first child can be quickly put into practice with the second leading to better practices. The elder sibling also has to deal with being put out by the younger. They are no longer the centre of attention and have to share the love that was once all theirs. The differences will have an affect. A child of a BPD parent may mirror their parent to try and gain their approval. While the other sibling might find that they are getting the good attention for being good and not playing up.

Im no expert just a normal guy with no qualifications in this field so these are only thoughts bouncing around my already confused brain.

[Pou]

Here is something from a study out of Harvard. Food for thought on this discussion... . I see a clear difference between S4 and D2. Our son is more like his mom, can't control his emotions as well, needs constant validation. I think it goes beyond "First Child" Syndrome. D2 is more like me... . controls her emotions, rarely acts out, more passive aggressive and her tantrums manifest themselves in just "stopping," rather than much crying.

Turkish, thank you for this great article that seems to explain everything and at the end it really didn't provide an answer and only leads to more questions   I just love these scientific papers … i sounds so great while reading them …. food for thoughts.  Great stuff

For me, in my simple mind, I think NPD/BPD as such … 1) hereditary makes predisposition possible; 2) developmental influence among the predisposed individuals; 3) onset influences at a particular time of BPD / NPD life (undefined... ).

I notice, NPD / BPD are driven to do things that may appear to be "good" largely due to some type illogical mental projection.  The intention is not logical, but not harmful, but the result could be good.  This applies to many circumstances where results could be "bad".  I think it is type of duality that leads nons guessing …. and because their actions seldom makes rational sense to NONs … we end up guessing and could not figure out a consistent pattern and initially, we are attracted to this because it is "mysterious", "charming" and then we fall into the trap that we start to think that we are the only one who can crack the "code".  As others move away from them, we move closer to them … because they need us to be there, no one else will (in our head) … so co-dependence starts here. 

[Pou]

Very interesting article.

I have to admit that while the genetic argument has evidence I do wonder how much the brains development can be affected by how its used.

Enlighten me, good comments.  I assume it is a "Perfect Storm" scenario.  When everything adds up to NPD / BPD, then we have one.  Good points about even twins can be treated differently in subtle ways.  Very true.  Be honest with you, sometimes I think my NPDw is living in a trance.  LIke she is under a spell and no logic can penetrate her way of seeing this world and how reacts to it.

[maxsterling]

I'm also a scientific-minded person, so please excuse my thinking out loud here  

I'm no expert on evolution - but I see some issues with applying an evolutionary model to BPD.    Let's start by addressing how we measure "success" as a species.  Two qualifiers I can think of are population and duration.  Nowhere does "intelligence" matter - evolution does not care if a species ever evolves to be "smart".  It's like business - a successful business makes a lot of money and is around for a long time.  Would you call a business successful if they made a lot of money for 5 years, then went bankrupt?  Or what if they were around for decades, but only barely scraping by?  

In that light, the way I understand evolution is that to be successful as a species, there are either two paths - have a lot of offspring so that a few reach sexual maturity, or have fewer offspring and a high percentage of your offspring reach the age of sexual maturity.  I think to apply this to BPD requires several big assumptions:

1) - that BPD is a genetic characteristic.  That is likely somewhat true, because many of the traits that make up BPD are definitely genetic, and are advantageous under certain circumstances.  I know from observing my GF there must be something fundamentally flawed with the "cause/effect" or "learn from mistakes" part of her brain.  That is obviously not advantageous on an evolutionary level.  In fact, if not for the rest of society, she's be dead many times over.  Now, whether this part of her brain does not function due to genetics, due to drug abuse, do to childhood trauma, or a combination of some or all, it's hard to say.

2) - that all genetic characteristics have a function, or a reason for existing, or at least did at one time.  I can think of many cases where this isn't true.  Is there a reason why some people are colorblind?  Would society still function and the human race continue the same way without colorblind people?  Sure, a colorblind person may be at a disadvantage, but with society as it is set up now, being colorblind in no way inhibits a person from reproducing or being a good parent.

And that is the way I would view BPD.  I don't see where it offers any advantages for either producing more offspring a greater survivability of offspring - the two components that would lead to a better "success" as a human species.  I think society would function just fine and humans would reproduce at the same rate if there were no such thing as BPD or PDs in general.  

[Fanie]

www.psychcentral.com/news/2009/09/04/brain-scans-clarify-borderline-personality-disorder/8184.html

[enlighten me]

Another interesting article but it still throws up questions for me.

How old were the test subjects?

I still believe that the possibility of the brains early programing could be the reason for this. If at a key stage you are not taught to deal with emotions but instead do something else then the area of your brain for this will not be developed properly.

Without having MRIs of subjects from birth to adulthood it will be hard to tell if people are born that way or develop that way.

I agree that people can be born different. Take autism or the super savants that we read about. The way their brains are wired together is different. Where we have dial up they have broad band connecting certain parts.

The fact that they are saying 2% of the planet are born like this defies evolution as it is a self destructive condition.

[Pou]

I'm also a scientific-minded person, so please excuse my thinking out loud here  

I'm no expert on evolution - but I see some issues with applying an evolutionary model to BPD.    Let's start by addressing how we measure "success" as a species.  Two qualifiers I can think of are population and duration.  Nowhere does "intelligence" matter - evolution does not care if a species ever evolves to be "smart".  It's like business - a successful business makes a lot of money and is around for a long time.  Would you call a business successful if they made a lot of money for 5 years, then went bankrupt?  Or what if they were around for decades, but only barely scraping by?  

In that light, the way I understand evolution is that to be successful as a species, there are either two paths - have a lot of offspring so that a few reach sexual maturity, or have fewer offspring and a high percentage of your offspring reach the age of sexual maturity.  I think to apply this to BPD requires several big assumptions:

1) - that BPD is a genetic characteristic.  That is likely somewhat true, because many of the traits that make up BPD are definitely genetic, and are advantageous under certain circumstances.  I know from observing my GF there must be something fundamentally flawed with the "cause/effect" or "learn from mistakes" part of her brain.  That is obviously not advantageous on an evolutionary level.  In fact, if not for the rest of society, she's be dead many times over.  Now, whether this part of her brain does not function due to genetics, due to drug abuse, do to childhood trauma, or a combination of some or all, it's hard to say.

2) - that all genetic characteristics have a function, or a reason for existing, or at least did at one time.  I can think of many cases where this isn't true.  Is there a reason why some people are colorblind?  Would society still function and the human race continue the same way without colorblind people?  Sure, a colorblind person may be at a disadvantage, but with society as it is set up now, being colorblind in no way inhibits a person from reproducing or being a good parent.

And that is the way I would view BPD.  I don't see where it offers any advantages for either producing more offspring a greater survivability of offspring - the two components that would lead to a better "success" as a human species.  I think society would function just fine and humans would reproduce at the same rate if there were no such thing as BPD or PDs in general.  

Maxsterlin, you got good points.  I agree, ... . evolution is not always about getting better. I think a species can also evolve out of extinction.  People tend to say extinction is due to lack of evolution.  But in reality if "evolution" goes toward the wrong direction, catastrophe could occur.  Ok... . so if we assume logical progression favors evolutionary survival, then it makes sense that NPD/BPD doesn't make sense.  Now, in many instances, evolution works for a population because "irrational" changes happen and by natural selection, the unanticipated environmental change favored one or two irrational changes ... and so they propagate and survived.  What I am saying is that NPD/BPD individually doesn't make much sense in what they do... but collectively, they are disrupting the system by generating outliers that one of it will survive natural selection.  Trust me, I rather not be married to an NPDw and gladly to be weed out by evolution if I can just have a happy life.  So individually, I prefer not to be in my situation, but population wise, someone(s) has to be in our situation in order to favor the entire species' survival.  I also think if the balance is severely upset (like a fixed number of BPD/NPD in a society is dramatically increased) ... there can be self destructive issues for society or species as a whole.  One can view that Hitler was able to push a nation into PD and so was Japan and resulted in massive death and leading to global disaster.  In today's world, we are talking about nuclear catastrophe and with enough number of PDs will probably lead to our species' extinction.  So what I am trying to say is that at low level of PDs may not be a bad thing - just don't marry one.

   

[Pou]

Another interesting article but it still throws up questions for me.

How old were the test subjects?

I still believe that the possibility of the brains early programing could be the reason for this. If at a key stage you are not taught to deal with emotions but instead do something else then the area of your brain for this will not be developed properly.

Without having MRIs of subjects from birth to adulthood it will be hard to tell if people are born that way or develop that way.

I agree that people can be born different. Take autism or the super savants that we read about. The way their brains are wired together is different. Where we have dial up they have broad band connecting certain parts.

The fact that they are saying 2% of the planet are born like this defies evolution as it is a self destructive condition.

Many good points, however 2% is only bad if you view PDs are definitely bad for evolution.  However, 2% may be just good enough to add diversity for evolution without harming overall population.  I think we think it is bad because we are having relationships with one.  In that respect, I agree, it is horrible.  I think natural selection often selects traits that are not normal and this could be parallel to the irrational acts and thinkings of PDs.   

[wilsonian]

Wow... . I dont know but myself if I did that much thinking of why my wife is BPD I would go crazy... I just want to have good days with her in a normal as I can get relationship... . Im a salesman so I spend the days selling myself and our relationship so I can stay in the white...

[enlighten me]

Lol wilsonian

Ive got plenty of time on my hands to think. I work away and don't have much to do when Im off shift. Kind of helps me to try and understand what goes on and why.

[wilsonian]

You know after reading the article again and it said certain parts of the brain... . my wife had a bad wreck when we were in high school together back in 79... . threw her from the car and she has damage to the front lobe area of her brain... . wonder if any chance that has to do with her BPD... or am I just over thinking this... ?

[Turkish]

You know after reading the article again and it said certain parts of the brain... . my wife had a bad wreck when we were in high school together back in 79... . threw her from the car and she has damage to the front lobe area of her brain... . wonder if any chance that has to do with her BPD... or am I just over thinking this... ?

We have a Leaving member whose exbf also suffered from a traumatic brain injury some years ago, and she thinks that have have contributed to his BPD behaviors.

At the risk of getting too existential, we are more than our brains, and we also are not... .

[Pou]

Wow... . I dont know but myself if I did that much thinking of why my wife is BPD I would go crazy... I just want to have good days with her in a normal as I can get relationship... . Im a salesman so I spend the days selling myself and our relationship so I can stay in the white...

Wilsonian … on many levels, we are the same….that is why I think so much just so trying to figure out (decoding and making myself occupied) how to stay in white. 

[formflier]

Wow... . I dont know but myself if I did that much thinking of why my wife is BPD I would go crazy... I just want to have good days with her in a normal as I can get relationship... . Im a salesman so I spend the days selling myself and our relationship so I can stay in the white...

What's your commission schedule?   

[Narellan]

Yes Wilsonian, my uBPD ex had a serious car accident when he was 19, and had huge damage to his frontal lobe. He told me he'd never develop emotionally past that age. I googled the link between traumatic brain injury and PD and was quite astonished to see the percentages. Don't quote me but I think it was something like 68% would go on to develop a PD of some description if this part of their brain had been badly damaged.

Aside from this he had a normal childhood with no abuse. So environmental or hereditary  factors don't really come into it. My ex was in a coma for a period of time and rehab for many months.

[Pou]

Yes Wilsonian, my uBPD ex had a serious car accident when he was 19, and had huge damage to his frontal lobe. He told me he'd never develop emotionally past that age. I googled the link between traumatic brain injury and PD and was quite astonished to see the percentages. Don't quote me but I think it was something like 68% would go on to develop a PD of some description if this part of their brain had been badly damaged.

Aside from this he had a normal childhood with no abuse. So environmental or hereditary  factors don't really come into it. My ex was in a coma for a period of time and rehab for many months.

i believe frontal lobe has been linked to impulse control.  Apparently, many people who committed crimes and with addiction issues also have this area damaged.   

[MaybeSo]

Best research we have right now points to BPD being a combination of genetic loading giving a certain vulnerability when experienced WITH certain environmental and cultural stressors, a bio-psychosocial model.

NPD actually appears to thrive and be rewarded in many cultures, arguably in western civilization narcissistic men traditionally thrive and gain more resources (wealth, women, status... . whole countries!),  but women too, who are more narcissistic  are often viewed as the more highly sought after for mate selection because they are the "peacocks" of the heard, so to speak,  they are NOT afraid to toot their own horn, put themselves out there, use their sexuality/powers of seduction, compete with other less dramatic women for mates and resources.   High functioning BPD and NPD styles often have the more obvious markers of a potentially good mate in terms of  lifestyle, status, access to wealth or resources, or just plain charisma etc. Sex sells.  It also produces offspring. We see a lot of anecdotal evidence on this board of men who feel hopelessly besotted by the BPD woman due to her powers of seduction, charisma, etc. etc. and the women on this board often speak in similar terms about their npd or BPD male partner (never felt so loved and alive until I met him, etc.)  ... . no matter how vile he/she may be a big chunk of the time... . the good stuff acts like a drug to many... . and if that is so, then it's a powerful drug that drives many in mate selection.

There appear to be correlates between the insecure attachment styles: avoidant and angry/resistant to a narcissistc and borderline relating style. People with insecure attachment styles often find others with the corresponding insecure attachment style; avoidants often hook up with angry/resistents.  Water seeks it's own level.

There are studies and books describing this pairing, the Narcissistic/Borderline couple.  It's a common pairing , these two styles (not necessarily full blown pathology) often find each other and their particular relationship issues dovetail perfectly with one another... . a beautiful disaster one might say.  The divorce courts are very familiar with the dynamic.

So... . these folks fall in love, produce children who have both the genetic loading and the environmental opportunity to grow up witnessing the fireworks that go on between mom and dad and voila... . is it any wonder why we don't see even MORE of this than we already do?

What is it for?

Who knows?

In gaining access to resources (wealth and power)  narcissism appears to work.  A type of natural selection, I suppose.

Ethically or morally, I don't agree with it... . but narcissism at least does seem to be rewarded and 'selected' in terms of power and access to resources, and those who have the most power and resources survive and live on to have children and the traits/style gets passed on inter-generationally.  

Those who survive pass on their genes to the next generation.  The genes we see are the genes that survived.

BPD is being shown to have perhaps an overactive 'danger detector' in the brain.  The part of the brain, the emotional brain that is scanning the environment for danger... . is more "UP" in a person with BPD.  :)anger is not just about saber tooth tigers... . it's about relational danger, a look on the face, a tone of the voice... . they experience more threat more of the time from more subtle cues than the average bear.  That insecure attachment style.  

It may wreak havoc past the honeymoon stage in a romantic affair in comfy western culture... . but from a pure survival standpoint, those who survive get to pass on their genes.  The organism that is most on alert and most ready and able to scan the environment for potential threat and for battle, has in many times during the worlds history, faired better than their more relaxed and laid back counterparts. Those who are 'on alert' may have picked up on potential danger better than the average bear, and lived long enough to pass on their genetic loading to offspring during harsh times. The worlds history has been fraught with actual real danger historically, much more than it is now in most 21st century western homes.  Most of us today are not huddling under our kitchen table waiting for marauders to rape and pillage our village... . but that has not been true for much of human history.  Being more 'borderline' or more "narcissistic" may very well be an ace in the hole in terms of sheer, raw survival, at least historically.

Back to more current times:

Princess Dianna was supposedly suffering from BPD. (Do we dare assume Prince Charles might have some fairly NPD traits?)  She was selected by Prince Charles as his mate out of all the potentially eligible young women in all of England.  Marriage.  Children. Infidelity. Ugly divorce.  New partners. High drama. Tragedy.  

An entire entertainment industry thrives on just such pairings.

A huge part of our legal system thrives on the joining and dissolving of this kind of pairing, too, making huge profits off the blame game and division of wealth.

If we didn't have these kinds of pairings, perhaps certain parts of our economy would collapse?