this one is a tough one

[david]

XBPDw promised S16 a computer of his dreams a few months ago if he did certain things. He did them. She then tried to deny it but he had solid proof that she could not deny.

S16's computer of his dreams is close to $15,000. When he talked to me months ago about it I told him the price was ridiculous and he should think of something in the range os 600 to a max of 1,000.

Well ex apparently let him order all the computer parts so he could assemble it himself. The total is a little over $1,900. That did not include a monitor. Ex told S16 to talk to me about buying him a monitor for the computer.

During the entire time ex has never contacted me about any of this so there is no co parenting going on at all.

I decided to send an email to ex asking if she did indeed tell him to ask me to buy the monitor. She replied that she did. She indicated that she gave S16 a 1,500 limit and that he spent it all on computer parts and has no more left for the monitor. That is not true because he showed me the list of things he ordered and it came to a little over $1,900.

I do not like the direction this is going and am not sure what to do. A year before ex left she came to me with $40,000 debt on her credit cards. I put them on our mortgage and wound up paying them off. I do not want to even suggest in any way, shape, or form that will happen again. This is a boundary issue and am not to sure how to handle this. Looking for thoughts.

[enlighten me]

The person here that needs you to have an adult discussion more than anyone is your son. He is caught in the middle and will no doubt be feeling torn by what is going on. You need to explain to him that his mum cannot make promises to him and expect others to honour them. Explain that you do not wish him to be in the middle of a tit for tat war and in the future if his mum promises something then he should discuss it with you as you don't want him to get hurt if its not something reasonable. I would then tell the ex that she has no right to make promises and expect you to honour them if she is not willing to discuss it with you before hand.

[livednlearned]

Does S16 seem to be careful with money? I would worry about my kid thinking that things will "all work out" like your ex seems to think, and that someone will rescue the debt.

Can you talk to S16 about the limit his mom gave him, and ask how it ended up at $1900? Maybe he didn't know how to calculate shipping and tax? Ask him if there is anything he could return for something less expensive? If not, and he wants the monitor, I would ask him to propose a way to earn the extra money from you. But only after you feel satisfied that the excess of $400 is somehow due to his mom not giving him a firm limit, or S16 not understanding how shipping charges and tax works.

I think you can handle this without putting him in a bad spot, by just getting the facts. And then asking S16 to propose a solution. Maybe get him to show you three monitors, and pick one. He can go with the most expensive, but it will take him longer to get it. Then talk about ways he can earn the money to get the monitor.

Because it's great that he's interested in building his own computer. And he needs a monitor  

He knows his mom moves the goalposts. You can show him how to keep his own goalposts in a steady position, and work with him to stay within the limits you agree to.

[david]

 I had a few discussions with him the last few months about this. I agree it is a good thing for him to build his own computer. I believe computer science is the direction he is going in his future.

I have several concerns for him.

The dynamics between his mother and him and how this started as her promising him the computer of his dreams (around $15,000), his mother giving him a limit, and her still agreeing with spending more than the limit and not including a monitor. That is between him and her as far as I can see. We had discussions about it (S16 and I) and he actually showed me all the parts he had picked out. The majority of the costs are for upgrades so that he has a really good gaming computer. He could have decided on something half that cost and still had a very good computer except for the gaming aspect. We talked about that several times and he knows my thoughts. I made it clear that I didn't agree with the extras and that was between his mother and him.

In ex's reply she indicated that she has been talking to S16 for over two years about this. I do not believe that but it is what she said. I do not want to feed into her delusional thinking and that is a boundary for me and her that I established. I've been through the reckless spending habits of hers and have no intention of going there. My urge to fix things for her is in the past.

There are several parts that he could purchase at a later date. Those parts are strictly for the gaming aspect of the computer. He could build it now, it would still operate well as a computer, and figure a way to purchase those other pieces at a later date. Those pieces alone would reduce the present cost by at least $650. He would then be under his mom's imposed limits and he could get the monitor he wants.

I honestly would not try to discuss these things with ex because that would lead to conflict. I have seven years of experience in that area. Any ideas I have expressed have triggered her in the past and that would be an effort in futility. I pointed that out to S16 and he acknowledged it. 

I am actually quite surprised she spent the money she spent and that caught me off guard. We are currently (fingers crossed) finishing up a custody petiton I filed over two years ago. She has been dragging this out with delay after delay. The delays are pretty much exhausted and I suspect she is trying to buy loyalty or something from S16. We have a temp order that gives me more time during the school year. Both boys grades have improved since that temp order was established.

S16 figured out how to eliminate all shipping costs and taxes except for about $15.00.

If he reduced the costs by the $650.00 and took a few months to earn that money on his own the prices for those pieces would probably decline by then. It wouldn't be by much but it would be less.

I will be talking to him again this Monday when I see him.

If anyone else has ideas I would greatly appreciate them.

[livednlearned]

This sounds like a clear-cut boundary issue, then. No? It sounds like you have been really clear with your son about your expectations, and gave him good advice. Then his mom fudged the limit and wants you to fix it for S16.

It is hard sometimes to watch our kids learn lessons. Your son sounds very resourceful though. If he knows his mom is not going to buy the monitor, and you are not, he will figure it out. It's a gaming computer he wants badly -- he is motivated (my son is like this too).

My guess is that if you stick to your boundaries, your ex will suddenly find money for the monitor, but blame you for making her pay 

[Matt]

I agree with LnL and Enlighten Me - best to work this out with your son.

If it was my, I'd probably say (to my S16), "Well what your mom bought for you is between you and her.  If you can earn the money for a monitor, great, or you could ask for it for Christmas or your birthday.  Or maybe you can find a cheap monitor on eBay or Craigslist, good enough for now, and then get a better one later."

That is, "No, I'm not going to bail you out - you and your mom made choices and one of those choices was to spend all the money and not get a monitor.  That was a mistake.  But it can be worked out a number of ways, and I'll support you to work it out, either by waiting til Christmas, or finding the money for a monitor."

The lesson he learns might be, next time, make a budget, and make sure everything you need is in the budget.  And, next time, if you want Dad to help, ask him first - don't assume.

But... .you don't want to be seen as inflexible, or a jerk.  And you don't want to make your decisions based on making Mom's project a failure.  So, if there is a practical way you can help - like for example, if you can suggest that he sells something on Craigslist to get the money for a used monitor (maybe less than $100?), you should do that - don't try to make him fail, make suggestions and offer to help, but not by giving him the money.

In this situation, my S16 would probably find a creative solution, like selling something to get the money, or asking around for a monitor somebody isn't using.  (Monitors are pretty cheap, and there are lots of used ones that can be had very, very cheap.)

About a year ago, his iPod's screen broke, and fixing it would have been expensive.  He was working at Subway, so he had some money, but he also wants a car;  I told him, "If you spend the money on the latest, greatest iPod, you'll set back your effort to save money for a car."  He struggled with it, but finally decided to buy a refurbished iPod on eBay, not the latest model, for about half the money of the newest one.  I thought that was a good solution - he can't live without music, and he can't get a car for a while anyway, but this was more frugal and sensible than buying himself the best iPod.

The experience is teaching him about money - the shift between a child's view that when something is needed Dad will pay for it, and the adult's view that there are only so many dollars so if you buy one thing you can't buy something else.  We're doing them a favor by helping them learn this lesson sooner rather than the hard way later.

At Christmas time, though, you could view anything you give him as an investment in his education, if it will truly help him learn computer science, and not just waste more time on video games... .

[GaGrl]

I'm with Matt.  Offer alternatives, but it's not your problem to fix for him and his Mom.

[david]

I picked the boys up at school today. S16 gets out an hour earlier so we had time to talk. I started the conversation. He quickly explained what happened.

He figured that his mom only gave him a 1500 limit. He convinced her to go the extra 400 for the internals. She knows nothing about computers. He said he thought I wouldn't buy the monitor because of our previous talks but figured if he ordered everything else and I said no his mom would get mad at me and buy the monitor to spite me. He was correct in his calculations. We then had a talk about taking advantage of people and I left it alone.

I sent an email to his mom two days ago. I said that since she indicated S16 and her have been talking about this for close to two years and I was not part of the conversation I was going to respect her decision to do this without me.

[Matt]

So your son - like most kids his age - is experimenting with manipulation, and this time it didn't work.

You are doing him the service of letting him learn from that.

[livednlearned]

So your son - like most kids his age - is experimenting with manipulation, and this time it didn't work.

You are doing him the service of letting him learn from that.

That hasn't played out yet, though. If his mom buys the monitor to spite david, S16 played it exactly the way he expected it would.

[david]

I'm not sure what to think about S16. On one hand the fact that he "gets" his mom and understands how to play the game is good. However, I don't like the fact that he can and does "manipulate" his mom

like that. Knowing that he can is one thing but if he continues doing things like this I don't think it's a good thing. Not sure what I should do if anything at this point. Maybe just keep an eye on things and see if this becomes a regular occurence.

[david]

So I get an email from ex last night. It is attached to the other emails. She ignored the entire dialogue of emails and basically pretended it was the first email. She said she was buying (she already did) S16 a computer and she thinks it would be a good idea if I bought him a monitor for Christmas.

I'm not going to reply since I already said what I needed to say.

It reminds me of our dysfunctional realtionship and how I just went along with whatever ex proposed. It was easier than disagreeing back then or so I thought.

[Matt]

So there's the question of buying him a monitor.  You've decided not to do that, and you have communicated it to S16.  End of subject.

Then there's the question of his behavior toward his mom and toward you.  By not buying him the monitor, and telling him that youha understand his scheme, you've dealt with that - he knows you see through his manipulation and that it won't work with you.  (He may try it again sometime, but if you deal with it consistently the same way you did here, that should work well I think.)

The hardest part is how you deal with his behavior toward his mom.  Here, since you're not directly involved, you could be perceived as "preaching" or "lecturing".

I've found that it usually works well - when dealing with almost-grown kids about honesty - to just have a chat and let the child know how I see it and what I believe is right.  If my S16 did what your son did, I might say,

"With some people it's easy to be direct - they deal with you directly, no tricks on either side, and it's a good relationship.  With some people that isn't so easy, so you can try to deceive or manipulate them - tell them whatever you think will get them to do what you want them to do - and that can work pretty well.  But it's not honest, and it makes things complicated;  you develop a relationship based on dishonesty, and it makes you a different person - not the kind of person I think you really are.  So I think it's best to be direct, even when you're dealing with someone who doesn't always respond to that the way you want."

or something like that.

By the way, I did have an honesty issue with S16 a few weeks ago.  He works weekends at Subway, but one Saturday there was a party he wanted to go to, so he called in sick.  He told me he wasn't scheduled at Subway that day.  I found out (from D18) the truth and asked him about it, and he said, "Well I thought you would make me miss the party."  He was wrong - I wouldn't have made him choose one way or the other.  What I objected to was not telling me the truth.  This time, no punishment.  I just told him what my parents always told me:  "If you aren't honest with me - and I don't just mean lies, I also mean deception or manipulation - anything other than the whole truth - I can't trust you, and that's not the relationship we should have.  So tell the truth and deal with me and everyone else on that basis - OK?"  Time will tell how that plays out... .

[david]

Thanks Matt, I think that could be a good conversation.