Sadism?

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I am feeling very worn down today. I've been studying overtime and had so much on my mind, so I'm hoping that writing a little will help to clear my mind.

I haven't posted much since I started taking a very time-consuming class, but I've kept up on reading posts. And doing this reading made me think of something my BPD sis said to me a while ago, which was very eye opening. She told me that she enjoys hurting people. That it makes her feel powerful. She said she has to fight against the urge to do this (a fight she often loses, apparently). I was pretty taken aback, but it put a whole lot of things into perspective. It also led to me decision to stay way back from her.

There are a lot of discussions online as to what causes people to lash out, are they in pain when they do this, can they stop, how to have compassion for them. Reading these made me think of what sis had told me. That led me to start googling things like antisocial personality, etc. And that led to a description of sadism. It's not an official diagnosis, since there is a ton of overlap with other disorders, and because sadists aren't unhappy so they don't seek treatment. But a lot of psychologists do recognize it as an issue. So what makes you a sadist? Enjoying hurting other people. Antisocial p.d. hurt people in order to achieve some other goal, narcissists hurt people in trying to one-up them, and so on, but sadists see their victims as weak and just plain get a kick out of causing people pain. And this is exactly what sis told me, so she fits the textbook definition of a sadist.

I do think she has BPD, because she has so many symptoms in common with what I read here, and I've had professional therapists tell me that she is. But there is one thing that she hasn't done. She has never done any self-harm. No cutting, no suicidal gestures or discussion. Obviously, that is a good thing, except it seems so different. I read so many stories of people who are just lashing out all over the place, at themselves and others. My sister's rage is completely focused on others, while of course painting herself as the victim. She has told lies that got her husband arrested and left him with a record (she told me later that it was a lie), had an affair with a teenager, and got somebody to quit his job and move across the country because he was her "soul-mate" only to kick him out less than a month later. She has done tons of smaller scale abuses, you all know how that goes. Not that any of it is excusable, but when you think of it as something she can't help, you make more allowances. Seeing it as a way that she got her jollies, just to make herself feel good... .well, it makes me a little sick to my stomach. She really scares me. She gets away with a lot, partly because she plays the victim, but mostly, I think, because she is very rageful and she scares people into backing off. As well they should, because apparently she's so good that she can convince the police that you tried to choke her, even if you didn't.

Well, I'm hoping that now that I've said my piece I can get this off my mind so I can study. Thanks for reading.

[lost and found]

I am feeling very worn down today. I've been studying overtime and had so much on my mind, so I'm hoping that writing a little will help to clear my mind.

I haven't posted much since I started taking a very time-consuming class, but I've kept up on reading posts. And doing this reading made me think of something my BPD sis said to me a while ago, which was very eye opening. She told me that she enjoys hurting people. That it makes her feel powerful. She said she has to fight against the urge to do this (a fight she often loses, apparently). I was pretty taken aback, but it put a whole lot of things into perspective. It also led to me decision to stay way back from her.

There are a lot of discussions online as to what causes people to lash out, are they in pain when they do this, can they stop, how to have compassion for them. Reading these made me think of what sis had told me. That led me to start googling things like antisocial personality, etc. And that led to a description of sadism. It's not an official diagnosis, since there is a ton of overlap with other disorders, and because sadists aren't unhappy so they don't seek treatment. But a lot of psychologists do recognize it as an issue. So what makes you a sadist? Enjoying hurting other people. Antisocial p.d. hurt people in order to achieve some other goal, narcissists hurt people in trying to one-up them, and so on, but sadists see their victims as weak and just plain get a kick out of causing people pain. And this is exactly what sis told me, so she fits the textbook definition of a sadist.

I do think she has BPD, because she has so many symptoms in common with what I read here, and I've had professional therapists tell me that she is. But there is one thing that she hasn't done. She has never done any self-harm. No cutting, no suicidal gestures or discussion. Obviously, that is a good thing, except it seems so different. I read so many stories of people who are just lashing out all over the place, at themselves and others. My sister's rage is completely focused on others, while of course painting herself as the victim. She has told lies that got her husband arrested and left him with a record (she told me later that it was a lie), had an affair with a teenager, and got somebody to quit his job and move across the country because he was her "soul-mate" only to kick him out less than a month later. She has done tons of smaller scale abuses, you all know how that goes. Not that any of it is excusable, but when you think of it as something she can't help, you make more allowances. Seeing it as a way that she got her jollies, just to make herself feel good... .well, it makes me a little sick to my stomach. She really scares me. She gets away with a lot, partly because she plays the victim, but mostly, I think, because she is very rageful and she scares people into backing off. As well they should, because apparently she's so good that she can convince the police that you tried to choke her, even if you didn't.

Well, I'm hoping that now that I've said my piece I can get this off my mind so I can study. Thanks for reading.

[Attie]

My mother would never self harm either. It was always directed at others. Never at herself. She would lash out, hit me, throw plates in direction of my father etc. Never hurt herself (at least not that I could see, obviously I'm not monitoring her 24/7).

I know she has a lot of empathy because if there's a snail on the street, she will bend down and pick it up so it doesn't get run over by a car. And if a bird drops from a nest and hits our balcony, she will take it in and feed it until it can fly away. Etc.

So, I don't think it's sadism. I think it's more a "I'm inflicting pain on you, so you can see what pain feels like, I'm not going to be the only one in pain here and it makes me feel better to know you're in pain as well... " and the whole pressure rage builds up and then you rage at someone and that pressure gets released and they falsely associate the good feeling of releasing said pressure with feeling good about hurting people?

It takes a lot to be actually diagnosed as a sadist, it's a very specific and very disturbing diagnosis. It usually is co-diagnosed as someone has a certain personality disorder with sadistic tendencies. Meaning the person doesn't always act like a sadist.

[HappyChappy]

She told me that she enjoys hurting people. That it makes her feel powerful... .

... .So what makes you a sadist? Enjoying hurting other people.

Lack of empaythy allows people to cause pain without remorse. But you need to go back to childhood, to the point where we enjoyed it. A young boy may pull the wings of a fly, for example as an experiment. Most of us then move on from this, and realise this is cruel. Some, like my brother, get stuck in this phase. I notice that my young son will tease his sister until she crys and he loves this. But he'll move on. Narcassists get stuck in the young child phase, and some never move beyond the enoyment of teasting their sister or playing God with insects. It's control, it makes them feel powerfull. But well done on you BPD for at least admiting that.

[Linda Maria]

Hi there!  I was interested by what you said about your sister never indulging in any form of self-harming.  I have worried about whether my uBPD sis really fits the bill as while she does have many of the classic symptoms, the splitting, the mad lies etc. she too has never done any self-harming, attempted suicide etc, or even taken drugs, or drunk to excess.  When we were younger and I lived at home she was occasionally violent towards me when my parents weren't there, but it was fairly rare.  We also had the same upbringing, very stable, loving etc.  So I think the origins for her must be mainly genetic - we are both adopted.  But I'm glad I'm not the only one who has a FM who doesn't have those symptoms, as they do seem very common to most people with BPD.  Would be good to hear if this is the case for any other people - just don't want to "label" her incorrectly - not that I'd be brave enough to tell her I think she has this - I am currently virtually NC  to preserve my sanity!  JB

[HappyChappy]

My BPDm has never self harmed. BPD have been subcategorised into Queen, Which, Waif etc... .certain types are more prone to self harm than others. Self harm is also an indication of low self esteem, and a need to punish yourself. Some would say an addiction to marathon running is a form of self harm, or bulimia is self punishment. So sometimes self harming isn't always obvious.

BPD is a spectrum. lost and found regadless of if your sister means to, or is BPD, the behaviour does the same damage. And Linda Maria if someones behavior can be predicted by a BPD diagnosis, then the "label" has a use, even if it's wrong. Sounds like you both had ordeals to put up with.

[lost and found]

Thank you all for sharing your ideas, it helps. I feel a bit better, I was really bothered by the idea that all this pain could have been caused just for fun. I do think that a lot of it is power-based - in fact, sis said exactly that, it makes her feel powerful. Happychappy, the child analogy seems fitting. It is like dealing with a 2-year old, but of course now that they are in adult bodies they can do adult-level damage! Attie, it's interesting what you said about empathy. Both my mom and sis, who are very similar, feel extremely sorry for animals, characters in books, even inanimate objects, but when it comes to dealing with actual people the empathy ends. Maybe so they don't have to deal with their conscience over treating people so badly. Linda Maria, it is confusing isn't it, how differently people can act even coming from the same upbringing, or having the same illness but it is expressed so differently. I'm no contact too, although it is my sister's choosing. Therapy made me far less easily manipulated, so now she has pretty much declared me a horrible person and won't speak to me. Which means no more abusive emails, Woot! Woot!

[slimmiller]

Interesting thoughts here

One thing that I can relate that has been mentioned here by several folks. My exBPD is very destructive and at times a complete emotional terrorist (Ky kids words... :'() but she never admits to being depressed or self destructive. No suicidal thoughts or anything that would elude to that. Partially I think she is too smart to admit that. She has other ways to cope and complains of the emptiness etc. Classic BPD stuff but never any self harm.

I have a hunch that part of the reason for this is that she knows too well as there are several relatives of hers that are very big into drugs, alcohol and other coping methods, what the consequences are. It would show weakness and and could possibly shift responsibility back on her. What I mean is she would have to take some form of ownership something which she is incapable of. She shifts everything to be caused by others, not her.

Which is a part of the BPD paradigm, making others own the pain while they continue doleing it out to those they are closest to

[Turkish]

Which is a part of the BPD paradigm, making others own the pain while they continue doleing it out to those they are closest to

In a moment of lucidity, when I asked her about why she lashed out at others, my uBPDx said, "I just want everyone else to feel my pain!"

I was shocked, but it made a lot of sense, moral judgment aside.

[Ziggiddy]

L&F - interesting thread with some noteworthy points.

My uBPDm engages in behaviours that are self harming (in particular several suicide attempts) There is definitely an attention seeking element to them but having recently lashed out at someone for the first time in years myself I have actually been giving this subject a great deal of thought lately.

Firstly I'd like to point out that I don't always trust the expressions a pwBPD makes about their understanding of themselves. Maybe in that moment with that clarity of that emotion it's what they believe but it's shiftable as sand in the next moment.

Is the statement a true reflection of what they usually, stably feel? it seems doubtful to me.

Second point. A few days ago I lashed out (in an email) at my brother for his treatment of me as a kid. it was in his words, brutal. it wasn't the behaviour then that got me riled, it was the glib reply to the email where I said I was hurt and upset by something he had written to me a while ago. I wrote a list of his offenses (some of them) and pressed send deliberately without review or compunction.

My intention was to hurt him. I don't recall any time where I have outright decided to hurt someone (I'm highly tolerant and easyforgiving) but I wanted validation dammit.)

Was I remorseful? Hell yes. i've regretted it every day since and am still writhing around in pain at the rift it caused between us.

But in that moment if I am honest I wanted him to have a measure of the pain he had inflicted on me. I WANTED to hurt him, not for a kick but so HE COULD UNDERSTAND how I'd felt all those years.

Now I also truly believe that people wBPD have a strong sense of unreality (this is my intuition) and need to create action around themselves to feel real. The more chaotic, the more drama, the better to believe they exist. they MATTER. What more effective way to do that than to inflict pain? It's more complex than just enjoying seeing people hurt.

[PleaseValidate]

As most people above have said,  many people w BPD want you to hurt as much as they do. Once around age 8 when my BPDmo was fighting w my uncle, i was hiding in the cellar. She screamed at me point blank,  " if i had to listen to it when I was a kid, you have to listen to it too!"

I am quite embarrassed and ashamed to admit that I have knowingly been guilty of this myself in interpersonal relationships. I am sure it is a coping mechanism I picked up from BPD mo. The last time I did it was when my bff "dumped me" 3 yrs ago and to hurt her,  i told her a certain group of people never liked her and only tolerated her for my sake. (This was a huge deal for me because I try and practice existential honestly and hadn't told a lie like that in at least a decade.)

My BPDmo never self harmed either. Only threatened suicide in a manipulative wolf way. But the dishes, canned foods and slaps came to me often. Self harming isn't part of the diagnosis per se, it is just present in many victims.


Ziggiddy, im very intrigued by this idea:

Now I also truly believe that people wBPD have a strong sense of unreality (this is my intuition) and need to create action around themselves to feel real. The more chaotic, the more drama, the better to believe they exist. they MATTER. What more effective way to do that than to inflict pain? It's more complex than just enjoying seeing people hurt.




I recognized my BPDmo need for drama very early and just like a good little codependent,  i would report all of the drama that happened when she was not home. Not because I cared about any of it, but because I was trying to get her to notice me.

I also have a theory that some children from chaotic homes grow up and gravitate to drama and are in need of more stimulation in general.

I also think that from living w such high drama and trauma at home, i had become VERY disassociated at home. I had totally blocked this out until I stepped into my childhood home (w same drama and trauma) 2 yrs ago and the questioning of how all of my molecules stuck together and why I can see out of my eyes surfaced. I felt "zombified."

I personally have never noticed a need for high interpersonal drama, but I am an "adrenaline junkie" and did seek out work in emergency services.

[healinghome]

hi all     my understanding of the enjoyment my uBPDm and uBPD-bf express when they cause others pain is related to the thrill of it.  when they create drama they get a rush of adrenaline, when they cause others pain there's a chance that the others will react and start an argument, this reolization causes the BPDs to get a rush of adrenaline of what could be about to happen. 

I see BPD with emotional and mental dysfunction due to trauma, but also a biological addiction... .to adrenaline.  I think many of them live in such a depressive state with a lack of awareness of their self, that the only way to feel anything is via a big chemical like adrenaline.

its a real mind melt though, to know that the people you were born to in this world to people actually enjoy seeing you suffer.  my uBPD said she used to stroke my face when I was a baby, because she knew it irritated me and caused me to flinch.  sick