Optical Illusions

[Ripped Heart]

So despite the 3 year gap since I finally managed to break free from a highly abusive marriage with exN/BPDw and the 2 years of email bombardments that followed I finally got the last bit of email correspondence back in June. Was strictly NC since I got out the house and haven't looked back since. ExN/BPDw tried many different ways to communicate but each time, I blocked her off. Had to set up rules at work and get her blocked there as well as my personal email.

So we get to last month and I have an email pop up for LinkedIn - People you might know. There should be no way possible for her to even appear on there and then I found she has befriended several people from within my company despite it being in a different country. Not an issue because I'm way beyond that but there was one thing that was extremely haunting:

The photo of her was sinister and extremely creepy. She was so pale, so gaunt and had a stare that could kill a horse. It was the difference between looking at Charlize Theron and the pic of when she portrayed Eileen Wournos in terms of the stare and the unhealthy look.

Now this is the part that I struggle to understand. I know it's been 3 years and there may be a lot of other factors gone off within those 3 years but had I met that face 5 years ago every alarm bell and    would have been firing off in my head. She looks like a very unhealthy psychopath to the point I feel a lot of sorrow and empathy towards her.

Or is it a distortion in my own mind having lived through that and survived that I see her for who she truly is? They say love is blind but believe me, that is blind multiplied by a 1000 at least.

Has anyone else come across their ex a couple of years later and found the same thing? That they look far more unhealthy than when you were together.

For me it serves as a kind of validation and a further reminder of a lucky escape. During our marriage, I managed to look and feel far worse than she ever did. She would often remind me that I must feel so lucky to have such a beautiful woman as a wife. By the time I managed to get out, I had lost a lot of weight and looked ill (something my grandmother commented on a few weeks ago too as well as friends who were there for me when I got free)

[jhkbuzz]

Just had that experience... .4 months after the breakup.  Absolutely made my head spin with the "creepiness" factor.  Unsmiling, dead eyes.  This is someone who I spent 8 years of my life with and, when I look at that picture I feel as though I don't even recognize her.

Strange thing is that it's a FB profile pic... .I understand that everyone can take a bad picture... .but why post it?

[Indyan]

That's how I often see my now BPDx (we "broke up" a few months ago - in fact he just blackpainted me all of a sudden).

Last week, when going to pick up my baby son, BPD turned and looked at my D10 and I when we were sitting in the car. I said "wow, weird face... ." and my D10 (not his daughter btw) answered "creepy you mean... ."

He looked like MJ in Thriller, with bulging angry eyes, the look of a madman... .

[downwhim]

God, I pray everyday that I don't run into mine. Can't wait to move in June... .Whether he looks creepy or not just seeing him will repulse me, trigger and set me back.

[Popcorn71]

I have noticed that my xBPDh has a look about him that I didn't notice before.

When I was going through old photos, I saw how miserable and hard-faced he looked in some.  I hadn't noticed at the time.  Now I see photos of him on Facebook and in most of them he has the same look.  Sometimes he's trying hard to look happy, but the eyes give it away.  He has a lost, unhappy look and I almost feel sorry for him when I see it.  Then I remind myself that he brought it all upon himself.

[jhkbuzz]

An update:  the Christmas FB photo just looked creepy... .the new one that went up looks wild eyed and unstable... .smh.

For my ex I think it's a guilty conscience (she cheated).  She has "moved on" in terms of her life (and her replacement), but the one thing you can't do is "cover over" your guilt - you can try, but without resolution, unresolved guilt eats away at your mental stability.  I think that's what I'm seeing in these pictures.

[Deeno02]

God, I pray everyday that I don't run into mine. Can't wait to move in June... .Whether he looks creepy or not just seeing him will repulse me, trigger and set me back.

Unfortunately, I dont have a choice right now. Volleyball Season is coming up soon and she coaches my son... .yuck. Im going to be the invisable man!

[thatwasthat]

@ripped heart:

Your first name doesn't by any chance start with a J?

Check your PM!

[CloseToFreedom]

I notice the same thing when looking at pictures of her, or sometimes seeing her in real life (at parties with common friends). She looks tired, pale and has black strokes under her eyes.

Then again, as I'm dealing with grieving, I might not look like I used to either.

[BorisAcusio]

An update:  the Christmas FB photo just looked creepy... .the new one that went up looks wild eyed and unstable... .smh.

For my ex I think it's a guilty conscience (she cheated).  She has "moved on" in terms of her life (and her replacement), but the one thing you can't do is "cover over" your guilt - you can try, but without resolution, unresolved guilt eats away at your mental stability.  I think that's what I'm seeing in these pictures.

Guilt is about taking responsiblity for one's aciton. The definition of splitting excludes the possiblity of experiencing guilt as it is projected outside. What they feel is toxic shame, it was there before she cheated on you. Tausk summed up perfectly:

For all these behaviors that seem confusing, I have to bring myself to remember that my ex is still the terrified, abused, three year old, with limited abilities, and who is living the very nightmare of her existence with the Disorder.

My exgfwBPD never really felt remorse or guilt.  She only felt shame, which was either repressed or erupted upon me through anger and projection.  Shame is how we feel about ourselves, Guilt/Remorse is how we feel about our actions.   Shame is a baser emotion than guilt. Remorse is a higher emotion that involves self awareness and and the ability to take responsibility for one's actions. 

When a want is the same as a need, as with my exgfwBPD, there is no guilt or responsibility, only shame.  If you stole a loaf of bread because your children were starving, you might feel shame, but probably limited guilt because you were acting on a need.   For my ex, the want and the need were the same. 

Or in another perspective, it's like a three year who impulsively steals a cookie and gets caught.  While being scolded, he may say he's sorry, but he really doesn't have the capacity to take responsibility for his actions.  He saw the cookie and at three years old he doesn't have the impulse control and executive decision making capacity to deny his desires.  His want for the cookie is the same as his need for the cookie.  And he does not have the ability to take responsibility for his actions.  But he feels great shame at her mother's scolding.

So he'll say he's sorry if he's forced to say it.  But inside he's feeling towards his mother is,, "You are mean and abusive, and I hate you!"  And he's really only sorry for getting caught or that you are mad.  Thus the, "I'm sorry your are mad" responses that so many of us have heard. 

The limited capacity for remorse,  self -responsibility, empathy essentially means that my ex will never change.  The capacity for self reflection and real adaptation are simply not within her.  Believe me we tried.  We went to counseling and learned ways to apologize.  But in the end she couldn't do it.   

It's not that she didn't want to apologize and take responsibility.   It's that she simply didn't have the capacity to take responsibility for her actions.  Her emotional development was arrested at the toddler age, and the pathways were never developed.  Emotional growth is simply beyond her.

The Disorder is a B___.  The Disorder is more powerful than me. The Disorder does not want happiness.  The Disorder always wins. 

Sadness.

T

[Ripped Heart]

Since I began this thread, guess who has tried to re-engage?

Was done by contacting my sister for an alternative way to contact me "in case of emergencies"

I certainly think this is related to her photo because she looks like someone who has lost control and that doesn't bode well for her NPD. I know I looked a mess when I finally managed to get out of there, even my grandmother commented on how think I was and had a look of a prisoner of war. However, I got myself back on track and back to looking healthy. Even situation with BPDgf right now has taken some out of me but not to the point people have recognised.

I think that photo was intended for me to try and lure me back in (as she used to be a model) but if anything has made me see just how ill she really is. It's only been 4 days since she tried to contact my sister so I'm expecting more attempts some time in the next couple of weeks. I won't engage on any level and if anything that image is burned into my mind as a reminder of what is in store should it ever cross my mind in the future.

[jhkbuzz]

An update:  the Christmas FB photo just looked creepy... .the new one that went up looks wild eyed and unstable... .smh.

For my ex I think it's a guilty conscience (she cheated).  She has "moved on" in terms of her life (and her replacement), but the one thing you can't do is "cover over" your guilt - you can try, but without resolution, unresolved guilt eats away at your mental stability.  I think that's what I'm seeing in these pictures.

Guilt is about taking responsiblity for one's aciton. The definition of splitting excludes the possiblity of experiencing guilt as it is projected outside. What they feel is toxic shame, it was there before she cheated on you. Tausk summed up perfectly:

For all these behaviors that seem confusing, I have to bring myself to remember that my ex is still the terrified, abused, three year old, with limited abilities, and who is living the very nightmare of her existence with the Disorder.

My exgfwBPD never really felt remorse or guilt.  She only felt shame, which was either repressed or erupted upon me through anger and projection.  Shame is how we feel about ourselves, Guilt/Remorse is how we feel about our actions.   Shame is a baser emotion than guilt. Remorse is a higher emotion that involves self awareness and and the ability to take responsibility for one's actions.  

When a want is the same as a need, as with my exgfwBPD, there is no guilt or responsibility, only shame.  If you stole a loaf of bread because your children were starving, you might feel shame, but probably limited guilt because you were acting on a need.   For my ex, the want and the need were the same.  

Or in another perspective, it's like a three year who impulsively steals a cookie and gets caught.  While being scolded, he may say he's sorry, but he really doesn't have the capacity to take responsibility for his actions.  He saw the cookie and at three years old he doesn't have the impulse control and executive decision making capacity to deny his desires.  His want for the cookie is the same as his need for the cookie.  And he does not have the ability to take responsibility for his actions.  But he feels great shame at her mother's scolding.

So he'll say he's sorry if he's forced to say it.  But inside he's feeling towards his mother is,, "You are mean and abusive, and I hate you!"  And he's really only sorry for getting caught or that you are mad.  Thus the, "I'm sorry your are mad" responses that so many of us have heard.  

The limited capacity for remorse,  self -responsibility, empathy essentially means that my ex will never change.  The capacity for self reflection and real adaptation are simply not within her.  Believe me we tried.  We went to counseling and learned ways to apologize.  But in the end she couldn't do it.  

It's not that she didn't want to apologize and take responsibility.   It's that she simply didn't have the capacity to take responsibility for her actions.  Her emotional development was arrested at the toddler age, and the pathways were never developed.  Emotional growth is simply beyond her.

The Disorder is a B___.  The Disorder is more powerful than me. The Disorder does not want happiness.  The Disorder always wins.  

Sadness.

T

I once heard a very good explanation of the difference between guilt and shame:

Guilt is about what you did (your behaviors), shame is about who you are (at your very core as a human being).

I believe my exBPDgf feels both.  Her shame predates me; her guilt over what she has done in our r/s exists as well - and it adds to her shame.

[BorisAcusio]

I once heard a very good explanation of the difference between guilt and shame:

Guilt is about what you did (your behaviors), shame is about who you are (at your very core as a human being).

I believe my exBPDgf feels both.  Her shame predates me; her guilt over what she has done in our r/s exists as well - and it adds to her shame.

Well, there is some overlapping between the two feelings, but guilt is closely related to making amends and work to not engage in the same hurtful behavior again. According to object relations theory, it would eventually lead to synthesising good and bad part objects into a whole object, thus' eliminating the very fundamentals of the disordered beleif system.

That was the process I never recognized in my exBPDgf, instead it was swept under the rug(shame) or blamed on me(projective identification).

Guilt and depression, while difficult to bear, contribute to better integration of good and bad objects. The realisation that love and hate are directed at the same object enhances the infant's capacity to "intnoject" a good object more securely (Rosenfeld, 1965). External reality in form of close and happy relationships has to prove the groundlessness of the infant's insecurities; eventually, his fear of losing his mother diminishes and she is established (introjected) more securely internally (Klein, 1940), indicating that the depressive position has been "worked through". If external reality cannot provide proof for the groundlessness of the child’s insecurities and worries about his internal world, the ego is not capable ot working through the depressive position. The fear of losing the loved object, characteristic of the depressive position, is merely superimposed on the fear of persecution bv bad objects characteristic of the paranoid-schizoid position. Failure to work through the depressive position leads to a regression to the paranoid-schizoid position. During such regression, the child's harsh superego is projected back outside, so that excessive guilt can be avoided at the expense of reemerging early persecutory fears. These persecutory fears, in turn, justify the deflection of aggressive impulses out onto persecutory bad objects (Klein, 1940, 1952; Rosenfeld. 1965; Kernberg, 1980).

[BorisAcusio]

I once heard a very good explanation of the difference between guilt and shame:

Guilt is about what you did (your behaviors), shame is about who you are (at your very core as a human being).

I believe my exBPDgf feels both.  Her shame predates me; her guilt over what she has done in our r/s exists as well - and it adds to her shame.

From a CBT manual:



I hope Ripped Heart doesn't mind the "slight" divergence from the original topic.

[jhkbuzz]

I once heard a very good explanation of the difference between guilt and shame:

Guilt is about what you did (your behaviors), shame is about who you are (at your very core as a human being).

I believe my exBPDgf feels both.  Her shame predates me; her guilt over what she has done in our r/s exists as well - and it adds to her shame.

Well, there is some overlapping between the two feelings, but guilt is closely related to making amends and work to not engage in the same hurtful behavior again. According to object relations theory, it would eventually lead to synthesising good and bad part objects into a whole object, thus' eliminating the very fundamentals of the disordered beleif system.

That was the process I never recognized in my exBPDgf, instead it was swept under the rug(shame) or blamed on me(projective identification).

I'm not sure about that... .guilt is more of a feeling that you have done something wrong - my ex knew she did something wrong.  In fact, she once said that she "never thought she'd be the kind of person to have an affair."  She felt guilty for what she did.

What you've described in the bold is an apology with a promise (and concrete steps taken) to change the behavior - referred to as repentance in the Christian tradition. With 'repentance' comes the opportunity for true healing.

However, it is also possible to experience guilt and FAIL to make amends, to apologize, to "repent." I think that leads to instability.

[BorisAcusio]

I once heard a very good explanation of the difference between guilt and shame:

Guilt is about what you did (your behaviors), shame is about who you are (at your very core as a human being).

I believe my exBPDgf feels both.  Her shame predates me; her guilt over what she has done in our r/s exists as well - and it adds to her shame.

Well, there is some overlapping between the two feelings, but guilt is closely related to making amends and work to not engage in the same hurtful behavior again. According to object relations theory, it would eventually lead to synthesising good and bad part objects into a whole object, thus' eliminating the very fundamentals of the disordered beleif system.

That was the process I never recognized in my exBPDgf, instead it was swept under the rug(shame) or blamed on me(projective identification).

I'm not sure about that... .guilt is more of a feeling that you have done something wrong - my ex knew she did something wrong.  In fact, she once said that she "never thought she'd be the kind of person to have an affair."  She felt guilty for what she did.

What you've described in the bold is an apology with a promise (and concrete steps taken) to change the behavior - referred to as repentance in the Christian tradition. With 'repentance' comes the opportunity for true healing.

However, it is also possible to experience guilt and FAIL to make amends, to apologize, to "repent." I think that leads to instability.

Their reality testing is mostly intact. Lewis described that in both cases, the wrongful act is take into account ("I did a horrible thing", but shame put emphasis on the actor rather than the act itself("I" did a horrible thing), the concern is about "others evaluatuon of the self" rather than "concern for one's effect on others".  

The bolded reference may resonate with Christian tradition but it comes from Object Relation Theory. Melanie Klein stressed the relationship between sublimation and the general capacity for developing guilt and reparatory trends on the patient's part. Kernberg in his book “Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism" describes that concern and guilt can not be reached when positive and negative intorjections are not brought together. The ego missing the capacity to do so. While as you pointed out, it is possible to feel guilt and fail in making amends but there has to be an inclination at least.  

Brown also makes it clear that feeling guilty can absolutely be a healthy thing, as this emotion can and often does lead to positive behavior change: “I feel badly about my behavior, and I’d like to fix the situation and behave differently in the future.” Shame, on the other hand, is incredibly unhealthy, causing lowered self-esteem (feelings of unworthiness) and behaviors that reinforce that self-image: “I am a bad person and there’s nothing I can do about that, so I might as well continue behaving badly.” In short, guilt is potentially a very healthy feeling, and shame is not.

That's the never ending cycle we see. It has to be stressed that borderline is spectrum disorder, some may retain impaired capacity for mourning, and their depression may contain elements of guilt.

[jhkbuzz]

Brown also makes it clear that feeling guilty can absolutely be a healthy thing, as this emotion can and often does lead to positive behavior change: “I feel badly about my behavior, and I’d like to fix the situation and behave differently in the future.” Shame, on the other hand, is incredibly unhealthy, causing lowered self-esteem (feelings of unworthiness) and behaviors that reinforce that self-image: “I am a bad person and there’s nothing I can do about that, so I might as well continue behaving badly.” In short, guilt is potentially a very healthy feeling, and shame is not.

Yes indeed.

[raisins3142]

Lack of guilt and ability to do bad stuff but only feel shame in hindsight might come down to the object permanence thing.

My ex could look away from me at a bar and I didn't exist and then she could flirt with dudes.  It was like if I wasn't there I didn't exist in the room nor could see her doing anything.  Totally in her own world.  Sometimes we would be following each other in our cars and I'd pull next to her at a light and turn and smile and wave.  She would be staring straight ahead with a sullen look.  This happened every time, probably 10 different trips, etc.  I found that really odd.  Whenever I am following someone and been behind them for an hour, we usually acknowledge each other when we are alongside each other later on.

[raisins3142]

Their reality testing is mostly intact. Lewis described that in both cases, the wrongful act is take into account ("I did a horrible thing", but shame put emphasis on the actor rather than the act itself("I" did a horrible thing), the concern is about "others evaluatuon of the self" rather than "concern for one's effect on others".  

Bingo.  Only sorry about lies because they get caught in them and you are upset and might leave them.  But defrauding you into a relationship based upon false pretenses is fine because they can't stand to be alone and supposed really like you.

The lies are actually a compliment.  Mine knew I'd never date someone that had cheated on past BFs, so she lied because she knew of my integrity and that I would walk and choose to be alone.

[BorisAcusio]

Their reality testing is mostly intact. Lewis described that in both cases, the wrongful act is take into account ("I did a horrible thing", but shame put emphasis on the actor rather than the act itself("I" did a horrible thing), the concern is about "others evaluatuon of the self" rather than "concern for one's effect on others".  

Bingo.  Only sorry about lies because they get caught in them and you are upset and might leave them.  But defrauding you into a relationship based upon false pretenses is fine because they can't stand to be alone and supposed really like you.

The lies are actually a compliment.  Mine knew I'd never date someone that had cheated on past BFs, so she lied because she knew of my integrity and that I would walk and choose to be alone.

I agree with your conclusion.

Borderlines are chameleons seeking to mirror and reward your good so they can feel good about themselves.  

HappyNihilist brough up an interesting article by Thomas Fuchs, "Fragmented Selves: Temporality and Identity in Borderline Personality Disorder" which clearly describes what Kernberg and others outlined:

The temporal splitting of the self excludes past and future as dimensions of object constancy, bonding, commitment, responsibility, and guilt. Thus, it avoids the necessity to tolerate the threatening ambiguity and uncertainty of longer-term interpersonal relationships.

Suffering results from the inability to develop real attachments, from inner emptiness and loss of meaning, last but not least from being overwhelmed by excessive feelings of anxiety and shame , for these are the main emotions that now replace the feelings of guilt and remorse related to one’s past.