Did They Ever Really Care and Do They Ever Feel Guilty?

[KaishaMikasa]

I have Seperated with my wife and she has given me the kids without a fight.  She was having an affair although I caught it early enough it probably never got physical.  My question is outside of idealization phase did they ever really care?  :)o they feel guilty about the affairs and other things they out is through or are they too caught up in themselves? She hasn't even tried for the kids and said what is depressing her is that she can't find any of her stuff at her new place.  I am happy about the divorce and have not been lonely and the kids seem happier.  Although I am getting them both in to see someone just to be sure.  I just wonder what is going on in her head.  I know I shouldn't but do they have a sense of guilt?

[ReluctantSurvivor]

I think that they most likely cared very much but in an infantile way.  Their emotions can run deep but they change with the winds.  They likely felt very strongly and then they didn't.  New love and people are a drug and an escape from their inner emptiness and turmoil.  When the neurochemical rush of a new infatuation wears off they discard that connection as brashly as a junkie throws aside an empty baggie.  As far as guilt I think either they feel none because they justify their actions and see nothing wrong with what they have done or the other possibility as that the guild and shame of their behavior is so toxic that they compartmentalize it away so they don't have to face themselves.  I have never seen my dBPDex show any remorse for discarding our r/s.  Once I was out of the fog I saw a different girl, the real person she was as she no longer put much effort into presenting a likeable mask to me.  Pathological lies, fabrications of events that never happened to gain empathy from others and erratic changes in personality based on whoever her primary target for mirroring.  As far as what was going on in her head I don't think I would understand it even if I could see, the whole thing would likely be so alien to my own mind that it would be nonsensical.

[KaishaMikasa]

I think you are right about them feeling guilt in only a fleeting way due to the pain.  She is texting me at all hours of the night and she is either weepy or mad.  It changes minute to minute.  I feel for my kids as they have lost their mother but honestly I have noticed that they don't stay in their rooms as much and the three of us are doing things together more.  I feel bad for her as her mother is this way and followed a very similar pattern.  Her first husband which is my wifes father she cheated on and ran off with the kids with this man.  They stayed married for 16 years and he stayed until the kids were old enough then left her for another woman.  At that point she broke and just disappeared for a while.  My soon to be DBPDXW (hope I got the letters right) is falling apart.  Her mother doesn't drink as she is a Mormon but her fix is men.  My wife is going out drinking and hitting the Xanax as well as chasing men.  Looking back on it I think she may have cheated at least 3 times once before we were married and another recently with a contractor we had working in the house.  Now he may not have gone for it but she was obsessed with him and was wear the most revealing clothes possible.  Outside of this she was a hermit and rarely left the house.  She is very child like and my rescuing side kicks in all the time and I have to stop myself from trying to help her.  She did stop the weepy little girl routine as I finally called her out on it last week.  I worry that as she picks up guys in bars and wherever else she can find them she will get worse and my boys will have to watch it happen. However, she is better than her mother so far as her mother's MO is to befriend woman with husbands she is interested in.  Her mother has been married 4 times and engaged 2 that I know of.  She has also cheated on everyone of them.  In fact, she was at one point cheating on her boyfriend that she was cheating on her husband with!  That is not what I want my kids to watch.  Her brother is BPD but has some Schizotypal like things going on.  His wife cheated on him and he just cut off his first family and will not talk with any of the extended family.  It is sad that her mother has destroyed these two other people.

[hopealways]

Mine said "I do love you, but in my own way."

[joel6242]

That is a good question. All I can say is that when he felt like I was going to get him out of my life, he did horrible things to me. I would love to think that he cared or even loved me but you do not do the things he did if he truly loved someone. I also believe that he thinks that I am available for him use even today.

He did so much. Think of the worst thing that someone can do to a person without killing them. He did that to me and includes several credible threats to kill me.

I have done this three times now, two with people that I had to hide because of threats of violence and death. I can say that I do love and care for him much. I care that he is ok and letting go of the anger. I think that I have had my fill of BPD and need to move on past these questions. My BPD guy has a very hard time with feelings; I won't say that he has none. But when he is in an episode, it is hard to find that he has emotions. I love the word grace, I am trying to have grace in the process of letting go. I am not sure that someone with BPD can have grace. I intend to leave this situation with grace and dignity.

[Lonely_Astro]

I think that they most likely cared very much but in an infantile way.  Their emotions can run deep but they change with the winds.  They likely felt very strongly and then they didn't.  New love and people are a drug and an escape from their inner emptiness and turmoil.  When the neurochemical rush of a new infatuation wears off they discard that connection as brashly as a junkie throws aside an empty baggie.  As far as guilt I think either they feel none because they justify their actions and see nothing wrong with what they have done or the other possibility as that the guild and shame of their behavior is so toxic that they compartmentalize it away so they don't have to face themselves.  I have never seen my dBPDex show any remorse for discarding our r/s.  Once I was out of the fog I saw a different girl, the real person she was as she no longer put much effort into presenting a likeable mask to me.  Pathological lies, fabrications of events that never happened to gain empathy from others and erratic changes in personality based on whoever her primary target for mirroring.  As far as what was going on in her head I don't think I would understand it even if I could see, the whole thing would likely be so alien to my own mind that it would be nonsensical.

Well written.  I believe that they do care and that they do feel guilty, just not exactly how 'normal' people do.  I think, because it is a spectrum disorder, that each one is slightly different but fundamentally the same.  Mine could rapidly go from being the most loving/caring girl to ice cold in a matter of seconds.  Usually, I didn't see this unless she was confronted directly with irrefutable evidence of the action.  For instance, we had been fighting for several weeks in July when I found out she had been seeing someone else for almost a month.  When I confronted her about this, she denied it.  When I showed her the proof that I knew the truth, she instantly changed into a cold blooded monster that blamed me for what she had done.  Several days of NC later (ironically she was leaving the day it all broke to go on vacation with her family), she contacted me and was extremely remorseful.  I don't think she was manipulating me, I honestly believe she was feeling guilt/shame for what she had done.  Even to this day, she refuses to speak about the month of July.

I met with her last night to say our goodbyes.  While I focused on the positive, I didn't shy from the negative.  She had nothing to lose during that conversation, when "everything was on the table, no holding back" as she put it, she still felt so much remorse, guilt, and shame for that.  She admitted that she felt like July was forever ago because of her rapidly shifting emotions and perception of time, even though she understood that it wasn't that long ago for me.  She said she understood why I was suspicious of her behavior and why I accused her of seeing someone else when the discard took place in late Sept./early Oct. 

I guess my point in all that is that some are capable of feeling guilt/shame.  Some find justification in it somehow and kick the emotional can down the road.  Others compartmentalize it (lack of object permanency).  It all depends on where they are on the spectrum, it seems.  Mine, like many, was not able to let go of the 'bad' she had done, the guilt/shame was all she could feel, she couldn't feel 'forgiveness'.  She couldn't let go of the past or stop worrying about the future long enough to live in the present.

[KaishaMikasa]

I agree on the only time I get an apology is when she is confronted with irrefutable evidence.  I presented her with screenshots of her communication with her new flame and other evidence of a guy she met in a bar.  She then said that the actions were "inappropriate" but that this did not cause the downfall of the marriage.  In just one paragraph she apologized then started blaming me for her loneliness and depression.  I have told her that she is not allowed in the house and not to come over without calling.  This has held so far.  However, her episode is continuing and she is at the bar again tonight.  I think she is desperately looking for a replacement or just picking up random men. It hurts to watch her blow up but I am not jealous.  I wish she would move away so my kids don't have to watch it unfold.  She found out I was going to file while I was out of town and filed first.  This is good because she just gave up custody of the kids. No fight no discussion just wants to go out and play like she is in college or more correctly high school.  l think she is considering fighting over assets which are substantial as we own a good amount of real estate but she may just roll over on that as well.  She said she doesn't want anything that isn't hers.  I think she is just tired of trying to put on a front of being a normal mother and wife.  It is strange because sometimes I think she feels embarrassed if not guilty and other times I just don't think she cares at all.  I will not be surprised if in a short time she finds a replacement and just walks away from the kids like her brother did.

[KaishaMikasa]

By the way I realize my answers are cathartic and rambling but the breakup is new.  I am happier with just me and my sons.  In fact, I am a little unnerved by the fact that I am not hurt or lonely.  My T says it is because I have been grieving this marriage for years and I agree.  It is a relief it is over.  I just hope I can get it done before she shifts so that she can't change her mind.  If she does I have been building a file on her for 3 years that my lawyer says is admissible.  So thanks for the responses and listening it is very helpful.

[Lonely_Astro]

I agree on the only time I get an apology is when she is confronted with irrefutable evidence.  I presented her with screenshots of her communication with her new flame and other evidence of a guy she met in a bar.  She then said that the actions were "inappropriate" but that this did not cause the downfall of the marriage.  In just one paragraph she apologized then started blaming me for her loneliness and depression.  I have told her that she is not allowed in the house and not to come over without calling.  This has held so far.  However, her episode is continuing and she is at the bar again tonight.  I think she is desperately looking for a replacement or just picking up random men. It hurts to watch her blow up but I am not jealous.  I wish she would move away so my kids don't have to watch it unfold.  She found out I was going to file while I was out of town and filed first.  This is good because she just gave up custody of the kids. No fight no discussion just wants to go out and play like she is in college or more correctly high school.  l think she is considering fighting over assets which are substantial as we own a good amount of real estate but she may just roll over on that as well.  She said she doesn't want anything that isn't hers.  I think she is just tired of trying to put on a front of being a normal mother and wife.  It is strange because sometimes I think she feels embarrassed if not guilty and other times I just don't think she cares at all.  I will not be surprised if in a short time she finds a replacement and just walks away from the kids like her brother did.

Mine was different.  Well, I mean she had different apologies.  She would say sorry, but I got to where I could tell when it was a placated sorry, a dismissive sorry, a direct lie sorry, or a true sorry.  I am certain that their ability to 'feel' remorse/guilt is associated with where they lie on the spectrum of the disorder.  Mine often had periods of lucidity.  During those times, she would openly and freely talk about her disorder.  I could ask questions without fear of repercussions.  To this day, she's never held anything that I asked her about the disorder (during those times, mind you) against me.

4 years ago, she and I had a r/s that lasted roughly 4 months.  It was a whirlwind.  Of course, it blew up.  We were totally NC for 3 years.  When we started talking again (which led to a year r/s), she was extremely lucid and apologized profusely for the harm she had done.  She let me ask any questions I wanted and she openly answered them.  She had absolutely zero to gain or lose by her honesty.  It wasn't manipulation, it was straight forward honesty.  For all intents and purposes, mine was/is an emotional cheater.  She told me she had about 6 r/s going back during that time.  She said only one of those was physical.  Do I believe that?  Yes.  Why?  Because she had no reason to lie to me.  Back then, her and I wasn't physical.  She actually is very protective of her (and others) health, which is good, as some BPDs (like regular people) don't care about that and will do whatever with whoever whenever from the stories I have read here.

I say that to try to bring some perspective.  Is your soon to be ex sleeping around?  Maybe.  Maybe it's something in your head, because I suffered (and still do, btw) with the same thing.  I was imagining that she was sleeping with countless guys because she would have no problem picking someone up (she's extremely pretty, a former beauty queen).  It turns out that what was in my head wasn't actually true.  She had the emotional affairs to make herself feel better, but she was only in one "real" r/s at a time.  Completely faulty logic, in my opinion, but in her distorted way of thinking, she wasn't cheating if she wasn't sleeping with the 'other' guys.

You're in therapy, which is a great thing!  This will help you process and also receive the guidance you need in how to move forward.  Good luck and keep us posted!

[hashtag_loyal]

I say that to try to bring some perspective.  Is your soon to be ex sleeping around?  Maybe.  Maybe it's something in your head, because I suffered (and still do, btw) with the same thing.  I was imagining that she was sleeping with countless guys because she would have no problem picking someone up (she's extremely pretty, a former beauty queen).  It turns out that what was in my head wasn't actually true.  She had the emotional affairs to make herself feel better, but she was only in one "real" r/s at a time.  Completely faulty logic, in my opinion, but in her distorted way of thinking, she wasn't cheating if she wasn't sleeping with the 'other' guys.

Guys, I really wanted to stay silent here, but I have to say something. I thought the exact same thing about my dBPDxgf... .right up to the point that she gave me an STD. Be careful! If you are sleeping with a pwBPD, you are potentially playing with fire.

She said only one of those was physical.  Do I believe that?  Yes.  Why?  Because she had no reason to lie to me.

It may seem like she has no reason to you, but keep in mind that people who feel shame often struggle with admitting the truth even to themselves. Even if she sees she has no chance of recycling with you, she may have plenty of reason to continue lying to herself. Be careful!

[Lonely_Astro]

I say that to try to bring some perspective.  Is your soon to be ex sleeping around?  Maybe.  Maybe it's something in your head, because I suffered (and still do, btw) with the same thing.  I was imagining that she was sleeping with countless guys because she would have no problem picking someone up (she's extremely pretty, a former beauty queen).  It turns out that what was in my head wasn't actually true.  She had the emotional affairs to make herself feel better, but she was only in one "real" r/s at a time.  Completely faulty logic, in my opinion, but in her distorted way of thinking, she wasn't cheating if she wasn't sleeping with the 'other' guys.

Guys, I really wanted to stay silent here, but I have to say something. I thought the exact same thing about my dBPDxgf... .right up to the point that she gave me an STD. Be careful! If you are sleeping with a pwBPD, you are potentially playing with fire.

She said only one of those was physical.  Do I believe that?  Yes.  Why?  Because she had no reason to lie to me.

It may seem like she has no reason to you, but keep in mind that people who feel shame often struggle with admitting the truth even to themselves. Even if she sees she has no chance of recycling with you, she may have plenty of reason to continue lying to herself. Be careful!

I'm sorry that happened to you, hashtag.  Could ehartma5's estranged wife be sleeping around with random strangers?  Yes.  Would I suggest that he protect himself if (for some strange reason) he were to sleep with her?  Yes. I didn't say what I said to make it sound like we shouldn't have those thoughts about them.  However, we sometimes get into our own minds about what they are doing and who they are doing it with.  I'll use my situation as an example in this.  If I were to find myself in a situation where I was going to sleep with J again, I certainly would not even consider it without protection at this point.  Why?  Because I don't know what she's been up to in the past months that we haven't been intimate.  I also did get tested, just in case (came back all negative), even though I had no symptoms of anything.  I did it for my own peace of mind.  Does that mean J didn't sleep with someone else while we were together?  No.  Do I have any proof that she did?  No.  Do I think she did?  For me, its more probable than not, at least at some point.  Was I lucky?  Sounds like it.  Did I always distrust her word?  No.  Was she lying to herself and me?  Maybe.  I can choose to believe she always lied to me or choose that she didn't. 

As far as to where I said that she had no reason to lie me, I simply don't believe she was lying to me or to herself.  At that point in time, she was very lucid and I also know a couple of the guys she had an emotional r/s with and they all told me she was a "tease" (she would make out with them, get them all rilled up, and then she would find a reason to leave).  This was all independently verified when we broke up 4 years ago.  So, she confirmed something I basically already knew: she emotionally used them and wouldn't let them be physical with her.  Does that mean that she didn't sleep with any of the guys she was playing back then (besides the primary)?  No.  But it did lend credence to her not lying to me as I didn't find anyone who would say they had slept with her (and trust in the fact that they wouldn't deny it).

What we are broaching is the topic of should we trust our BPDs and at what point we shouldn't.  I was just simply saying that we can sometimes be our own worst enemies and make things worse on ourselves by thinking they are doing whatever.  Acting on something that opens us to risk of a disease is an entirely different subject.  I certainly am not advocating that we should take their word for it and have unprotected sex with them from the get go, especially after a breakup/distance/discard.  Your health is far to important to risk.  But, if everything was going smoothly and you suddenly got an STI, is that your fault?  No.  At some point, a healthy r/s is going to evolve to the point where non-protection is considered.  If you can't trust your partner enough to have that discussion and consideration, you never really had a meaningful r/s with them, anyway.  At least thats my opinion.  Anytime you consent to sleep with someone, you are consenting to potentially passing/receiving a STI (thats why its always called 'low risk', not 'no risk', BPD or not.

[Emelie Emelie]

I think they do feel shame and guilt. It's also a very difficult thing for them to handle. My exBF completely rewrote the script of our rs. He didn't hurt me, I hurt him. (Although he always did the walking away and could never really articulate why.)  Shame is a core issue with him. The only way he can live with himself is to make me the bad guy. He feels like ___ about how he treated me - other people - and he really can't handle it.

[Reforming]

I think the answer to this depends on how you define care.

They, and I'm generalising massively here, may well have felt a very strong feelings about their partners.

The difficulty is that those feelings are often not very stable or sustainable and they are frequently rooted in unhealthy coping mechanisms.

A desperate desire for emotional security and a stable sense of self. The fantasy that another person can save them and make them whole.

That's a huge burden for any relationship and no partner can give you these things. If you don't develop these qualities yourself your chances of having a healthy, successful, long lasting relationship are very low

Reforming