Introduction and question: Ruminating

[HurtinNW]

Hello everyone!

I have been posting on the deciding board. Actually I started with the leaving board, moved to the trying board, and ended up on deciding. This gives you an idea of the number of recycles I have had with BPD/NPD boyfriend! I know this board isn't for complaining, so my backstory in a nutshell: over 4 year relationship with boyfriend, tons of turmoil, recycling, his verbal and emotional abuse, my own issues. My mother was very mentally ill, BPD, and my family is off the charts dysfunctional.

I am eager to deal with my own issues and get a better understanding of myself.

On thing I struggle with is ruminating. After boyfriend does his rage and break-up routine he goes into weeks or months of giving me the silent treatment. I spend WAY too much time ruminating about what he is thinking, feeling, and saying about me. I have a vivid imagination and I will spend a lot of time imagining what he is saying to people, how he is feeling, and so forth. This really keeps me in the FOG. The ruminating is probably number reason I go back to him.

In the past it hasn't worked to tell myself to stop. I've also tried going NC. It doesn't work, makes it worse, as a matter of fact. I feel trapped in this cycle and the ruminating is part of the trap.

I'm trying to examine my own history and develop more self-awareness. I am very caught up in feeling that what boyfriend thinks about me defines me. It goes to a core wound that really ratchets up my emotions: I want to plead, beg, struggle to get him to change his mind about me. In my family my mother controlled what everyone thought about each other. I was the black sheep. This is going to be raw and personal, but my mother died without ever changing her opinion of me. Her behavior not only wounded me, it forever destroyed the relationship between my siblings and myself. I don't think I've yet to deal with that terrible grief. And it is a terrible grief.

Now that I think about it, when I was engaged with my family I ruminated a lot about my mother. I was either feeling hurt, betrayed, angry, or, rarely, forgiven and loved. The drama was a way she kept us enmeshed. I was able to detach from that but it meant losing my family. Eventually I stopped ruminating but the sorrow was still there. So I have not had a healthy experience of detaching from BPD in a way that feels empowered and healthy.

Not long ago a friend told me my boyfriend "has his hooks in you." I didn't know what they meant. But maybe they were observing an unhealthy reaction in me. That friend wonders out loud what I see in this guy. He's unemployed, has an anger problem, and so forth. I guess I see the person my mother could have been. The person we all can be. But his growth somehow became linked to me. To give up on him feels like giving up on me.

I'd like to figure out a way to reduce the ruminating about him. I know it is not healthy. I also know it won't work for me to paint him black the way he does with me, and my mom did. I am not sure what I am "getting" emotionally from the ruminating. Maybe understanding the purpose it plays in my own patterns will help me stop.

Any advice or thoughts appreciated!

[eeks]

Hi HurtinNW, welcome to the Personal Inventory board!

On thing I struggle with is ruminating. After boyfriend does his rage and break-up routine he goes into weeks or months of giving me the silent treatment. I spend WAY too much time ruminating about what he is thinking, feeling, and saying about me. I have a vivid imagination and I will spend a lot of time imagining what he is saying to people, how he is feeling, and so forth. This really keeps me in the FOG. The ruminating is probably number reason I go back to him.

This sounds like you might have anxious attachment style.  Check out an article based on the book Attached here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=279028.0  There's a quiz to find out your style in the book, as well as numerous free ones online.

There are other resources on how attachment style plays out in adult relationships, but this is a good place to start. 

I'm trying to examine my own history and develop more self-awareness. I am very caught up in feeling that what boyfriend thinks about me defines me. It goes to a core wound that really ratchets up my emotions: I want to plead, beg, struggle to get him to change his mind about me. In my family my mother controlled what everyone thought about each other. I was the black sheep. This is going to be raw and personal, but my mother died without ever changing her opinion of me. Her behavior not only wounded me, it forever destroyed the relationship between my siblings and myself. I don't think I've yet to deal with that terrible grief. And it is a terrible grief.

So if I understand correctly, it's not so much that the ruminating is wanting your boyfriend back and wanting to control/influence the situation somehow... .but a desire to control his negative thoughts about you, because you believe that those thoughts define you?

It can be really difficult to come to a full understanding that what a disordered parent thinks about you, may have little to nothing to do with you.  You recognize, correctly I think, that there is grieving to be done.  Anger can be part of it too (channelling that anger into healthy self-protection, chopping wood, wild dancing, whatever your style). 

I don't get a sense of this from your post, but I'll mention it because it's something that comes up for me: fear.  Actually it might be more accurate to call it "fear of fear".  My mother likely has complex PTSD (from sexual abuse as a child and also authoritarian parents, likely NPD father), and the way she copes with life is by controlling a lot of things (including me), so that she can have a mental handle on them and predict what will happen.  And so, some things she taught me to fear I know rationally do not carry the risk of harm that she thinks they do, but when I even think about taking risks I feel this tremendous wrestling inside between me and my (internalized) mother.  So you may find that there is also a component of learning to trust people again and/or approach new interpersonal situations "fresh" (that is, not burdened by your identity, emotions and old survival patterns from the traumatic aspects of your FOO)

I'd like to figure out a way to reduce the ruminating about him. I know it is not healthy. I also know it won't work for me to paint him black the way he does with me, and my mom did. I am not sure what I am "getting" emotionally from the ruminating. Maybe understanding the purpose it plays in my own patterns will help me stop.

Is it possible that even though ruminating is clearly having negative effects, that you are doing it to avoid the perceived even worse pain of grieving the loss of the relationship with your family and/or afraid of the grief and other intense feelings that you fear will come if you were to decide to fully end things with your boyfriend?

[Lifewriter16]

Hi Hurtin,

Not sure if this is way off centre for you, but I'd like to suggest that you write down everything you think your BPDxbf thinks about you (in the actual words you think he would use or is using in his head 'You are ... .and... .and ... .' etc) and then analyse what you come up with. Whose voice are you really hearing for each and every statement? Is this something that you actually think of yourself but can't bear to own?

I can't predict the outcome, but I'd suggest you are projecting your own voice onto him and that underlying your own voice, there's a lot of your mother and some of your father and siblings and teachers etc... .When you examine these thoughts and own them as your own or place them where they belong, I suspect the rumination will reduce big style.

Nice to see you on the Personal Inventory board. It's my favourite.

Love Lifewriter

[anon72]

Hi Hurtin,

Not sure if this is way off centre for you, but I'd like to suggest that you write down everything you think your BPDxbf thinks about you (in the actual words you think he would use or is using in his head 'You are ... .and... .and ... .' etc) and then analyse what you come up with. Whose voice are you really hearing for each and every statement? Is this something that you actually think of yourself but can't bear to own?

I can't predict the outcome, but I'd suggest you are projecting your own voice onto him and that underlying your own voice, there's a lot of your mother and some of your father and siblings and teachers etc... .When you examine these thoughts and own them as your own or place them where they belong, I suspect the rumination will reduce big style.

Nice to see you on the Personal Inventory board. It's my favourite.

Love Lifewriter

Hi hurtin, looks like you have received a lot of great advice already  A big hug for you - as we all need one.

I can totally relate to what you are saying in the sense that for so long I actually wanted my sisters and mother to change their opinions about me - as I was also considered one of the "Black Sheep" of the family (the "angry one".  Then it finally hit home when I found out about all this uBPD stuff - that trying to prove to my uBPD mother and sisters that I was no longer angry - was a complete waste of time (if that makes sense) - it felt like a relief (although am still processing much of the grief).  So I realized that it was their problem and issues (well - mainly my mother) and there was nothing I could do to change it.  Particularly as it suited her to have splitting going on the family - so that she could tell stories about me and my sister to the other siblings etc. etc. 

And Lifewriter reminded me of something - that much of my projections onto other people regarding their thoughts of me - is my mother's internal voice (and my sister) inside of my head.  Of course - i have to keep remind myself of this - but working with CBT and mindfulness is helping to reduce them over time.  And I know where it comes from originally.  So everytime I project - I remind myself where it comes from - and use CBT to combat this - and remind myself from a more rational place what is going on etc. etc.  And the inner critic/terrorist is starting to diminish little by little.  Mindfulness & CBT definitely does help - although it does take quite awhile - I am still working on it a lot. 

Over and out.  Take care, Anon72  

[HurtinNW]

Thank you everyone!

Hi HurtinNW, welcome to the Personal Inventory board!

So if I understand correctly, it's not so much that the ruminating is wanting your boyfriend back and wanting to control/influence the situation somehow... .but a desire to control his negative thoughts about you, because you believe that those thoughts define you? ...

Is it possible that even though ruminating is clearly having negative effects, that you are doing it to avoid the perceived even worse pain of grieving the loss of the relationship with your family and/or afraid of the grief and other intense feelings that you fear will come if you were to decide to fully end things with your boyfriend?

eeks, you hit the nail on the head. It is a way to avoid dealing with the grief of loss. I don't want to let go. The pain is not just the potential loss of the relationship, it is having to accept this person I love thinks terrible things about me. Blames me. Has hurt me, and will carry these thoughts about me. By ruminating I think I stay engaged, hopeful he will "see the light" and love me again the way he seemed to the first six months. Maybe it is me also not taking accountability and ownership for my own feelings.

Hi Hurtin,

Not sure if this is way off centre for you, but I'd like to suggest that you write down everything you think your BPDxbf thinks about you (in the actual words you think he would use or is using in his head 'You are ... .and... .and ... .' etc) and then analyse what you come up with. Whose voice are you really hearing for each and every statement? Is this something that you actually think of yourself but can't bear to own?

I can't predict the outcome, but I'd suggest you are projecting your own voice onto him and that underlying your own voice, there's a lot of your mother and some of your father and siblings and teachers etc... .When you examine these thoughts and own them as your own or place them where they belong, I suspect the rumination will reduce big style.

Love Lifewriter

Thanks Lifewriter! I don't think I am projecting, because these are all things he either said to me or reported he has said to others. He tells me I am crazy, deranged, that my mother was right no one will ever love me, that I am impossible, and other things. He also engages in what I now know is triangulation by proxy by painting me black to others and reporting how they commiserate with him about how frustrating I am.

You are absolutely right that these are things I am afraid are true. They are the same things my mom would say about me. What if they are true? I think it is that big fear that keeps me enmeshed. I don't want those things to be true but am afraid they are.

I can totally relate to what you are saying in the sense that for so long I actually wanted my sisters and mother to change their opinions about me - as I was also considered one of the "Black Sheep" of the family (the "angry one".  Then it finally hit home when I found out about all this uBPD stuff - that trying to prove to my uBPD mother and sisters that I was no longer angry - was a complete waste of time (if that makes sense) - it felt like a relief (although am still processing much of the grief).  So I realized that it was their problem and issues (well - mainly my mother) and there was nothing I could do to change it.  Particularly as it suited her to have splitting going on the family - so that she could tell stories about me and my sister to the other siblings etc. etc. 

And Lifewriter reminded me of something - that much of my projections onto other people regarding their thoughts of me - is my mother's internal voice (and my sister) inside of my head.  Of course - i have to keep remind myself of this - but working with CBT and mindfulness is helping to reduce them over time.  And I know where it comes from originally.  So everytime I project - I remind myself where it comes from - and use CBT to combat this - and remind myself from a more rational place what is going on etc. etc.  And the inner critic/terrorist is starting to diminish little by little.  Mindfulness & CBT definitely does help - although it does take quite awhile - I am still working on it a lot. 

Over and out.  Take care, Anon72 

I think I've been fighting back most my life against these voices. I've taken solace in being a good mom, having a successful career, etc. But proving them "wrong" by having a loving good relationship has not happened. I can see I have a lot wrapped up in this relationship in needing it to be successful. And trying to feel better about myself should be something I don't need to prove.

Last night I backslid. I checked social media and saw boyfriend's postings. I was upset with myself, but I quickly went back to what was working before, which was a completely social media blackout. I really need to figure out why I torture myself like that.

Thank you for letting me try to figure it out 

[Grey Kitty]

I think your realization that the way you ruminate about your BF feels like how you used to ruminate about your mother is very helpful.

One mindfulness tip is to just watch for it and gently notice "I'm ruminating" when you start doing it. (And do not be surprised if when you "first notice it" you've already been doing it for a few minutes! This mindful noticing is actually very hard and takes a lot of practice to get better at it!)

Then, instead of telling yourself "stop ruminating" direct yourself someplace else instead. Your mind isn't wired to do it that way. (Do not think about elephants while you read the rest of my reply, whatever you do!) Direct your attention to your breathing. Or to visualizing a beautiful peaceful place that you love. Or if you have a good trusted friend that you have shared a piece of this with, call your friend and say "I'm ruminating again, can you distract me for a minute or two, please?"

Another question is what do you get out of focusing so much energy on what the other person wants/needs/thinks? Is this something you do so that you don't have to think about how their behavior impacts you, or what you are feeling? The situations you do it, sound like times where you have been rejected, and are probably hurt, fearful, or anxious. Can you describe what feelings YOU have? And can you allow yourself to just feel them, without acting?

Another mindfulness tip when you notice yourself ruminating, is to cultivate interest and curiosity as to what this ruminating thing you do really is, and really notice what your mind is doing, where it is going. That kind of mindfulness probably will work better if you take an interest in your own feelings (like anger or sadness), but you might see something with the ruminating too.

Whups, a lot of this is the same thing you just acknowledged that eeks was suggesting, and we cross posted... .moving right along here... .BTW, what color where the elephants you were trying not to think about? Willing thoughts to go away doesn't work. It isn't that you don't have good willpower or are doing it wrong, minds just don't work that way

[HurtinNW]

Thanks everyone,

The past few days I have tried to pay attention to the ruminating. When I catch myself I have been naming the feeling behind it.

Right away I've noticed most the times my feeling is, "I am scared." I am scared of being alone, scared that I am not loveable, and scared that I will not be able to cope with being alone. I have lots of fears of ending this relationship, and fears of continuing it.

Another big one is "I am hurt." I am hurt by boyfriend's abuse, hurt by his inability or unwillingness to take accountability. I feel hurt that he hurt me, so callously, and hurt he blames me for his behavior.

Then there is also "I am angry." I am mad he hurt me and blames me, mad he has destroyed trust with my kids, and mad most of all he doesn't see the value in us as human beings. I feel discarded, thrown away, irrelevant.

This cultivating an interest in the feelings behind the imaginings is really helpful.

[Grey Kitty]

   That is excellent practice, noticing and sitting with those feelings. No I didn't say anything about it being easy, and I won't 'cuz I know better!

Most of us have learned ways to run away and hide from those uncomfortable feelings, and are so good at it we don't even realize we've already done it. Being interested in this process is one of the best ways to get around the habit.

HurtinNW, have you done any traditional Buddhist mindfulness (vipassana) meditation, or any other form of mindfulness meditation?

[HurtinNW]

Hi Grey Kitty!

No, I haven't tried that. I do a lot of active meditation. My older counselor turned me on to it. Because of my PTSD it helps to have movement when I meditate, so I go for long walks in natural areas. The only problem is staying focused enough to not ruminate, which has been hard lately! I will look into mindfulness meditation.

The feelings are hard to sit in. They are feeling pretty overwhelming lately.  :'(

[Grey Kitty]

Well, if you do try it, I strongly recommend you look for a meditation group to do it with. While it is individual silent meditation, doing it in a community, and with instruction is really important, especially when starting out. Weekly meditation groups can be found in many places.

I mention it because the tips about being interested in the ruminating and feelings are ones I learned in my meditation practice.

[eeks]

Well, if you do try it, I strongly recommend you look for a meditation group to do it with. While it is individual silent meditation, doing it in a community, and with instruction is really important, especially when starting out. Weekly meditation groups can be found in many places.

I mention it because the tips about being interested in the ruminating and feelings are ones I learned in my meditation practice.

Grey Kitty, have you come across any guidelines/recommendations for trauma survivors with regards to meditation?  I think I may have experienced flooding, the feeling that I just wanted to jump out of my body because it was too intense, and it turned me off meditation (the therapist I was doing it with said "just stay with it, all feelings change eventually" - I do not think this is correct approach to what I experienced).  I have also read of people having even more severe reactions than that.

[Grey Kitty]

eeks, I have seen reference to Pete Walker's book on Complex PTSD indicating that mindfulness meditation will not be possible/useful due to the inner critic (aka inner terrorist) that CPTSD victims ahve. For them, this inner critic is too loud and too destructive to be bearable... .so if you try to sit silently it will (silently) tear you up.

In this case, other work to tame and retrain the inner critic is required first before mindfulness meditation will be possible or productive.

I think this possibility of flooding like you experienced is a good reason to start out with a meditation group with a leader who has some training, and can support you if something like that happens.

In the case of finding the feelings too painful or intense to stay with (like you experienced), I'd suggest that it is OK to end your sitting session if you need to. And I'd suggest trying again the next day, and seeing if it was different, or if you had more capacity to sit with it the next time around.

[doubleAries]

I get trapped in that place too. I think another aspect of it is that growing up in severe dysfunction, and as children who can't just leave ("that's it!" says the 5 year old, "I'm getting a job and moving out!" haha) we have to come up with SOMETHING to make things better somehow.

I was the black sheep too--but not the angry one (anger was reserved exclusively for my mother).

It became important to me to "set the record straight". I was anxious about all the lies and assassination of my character that went on continuously, and I tried to defend myself all the time, to the extent that was somewhat allowed (meaning ignored rather than punished). Without having been taught how to develop a self (because we create a self, not "find" one) I also worried that the smears may be true. I became a perfectionist to make sure I was good enough and the accusations didn't apply. Um, that didn't work so well either.

But my point being that years of ruminating over my ex (which is still a problem) are/were directly related to (a) the "setting the record straight" coping method/pattern from childhood, and (b) that pattern having developed in a situation I couldn't escape from so became an endless loop that, when it didn't work, I tried even harder to make work. Something I still do.