Have to ask something

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Are BPDS self destructive at their core? Do they through self lothing actually hate themselves? I see my ex as in horrible pain and emptiness and using me and others who love her to set up the ultimate drama where she loses them and suffers the heartbreak of this horrible sad dilemma? Nothing else makes sense about her. She wants my love, I give until I'm almost dead then she pushes my love away?

Again? No understanding crazy?

[JerryRG]

Are BPDS self destructive at their core? Do they through self lothing actually hate themselves? I see my ex as in horrible pain and emptiness and using me and others who love her to set up the ultimate drama where she loses them and suffers the heartbreak of this horrible sad dilemma? Nothing else makes sense about her. She wants my love, I give until I'm almost dead then she pushes my love away?

Again? No understanding crazy?

[hopealways]

Yes.

And the push pull behavior is one of the hallmarks of pwBPD. They feel engulfed by your love so they push you away then to prevent feelings of abandonment they pull you back in. This toxic cycle drives the non crazy and will go on for as long as you allow it, or until they find someone else.

[JerryRG]

Wow, so it's a no win situation and for this brief moment my sorrow for her is very real. I normally just get angry and that would seem to just feed her need to punish herself that much more. Strange paradox indeed. I hope one day I can finally disengage my emotions about her and just see her as a severely wounded individual instead of resenting her behaviours.

Someone told me one time that I didn't begin to possess the nessesary tools to even begin to help her. I should have left her alone.

No wonder I'm confused they are a walking talking conundrum wrapped up in a paradox shrouded in a miserable mistery

[JerryRG]

I must say my dear Dr. Watson, I find all this dreadfully appalling and most rediculous!

Seriously need to let this go and try to sleep, damn I'm wasting time trying to understand crazy... .just crazy, crazy is crazy.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I don't know if pwBPD are self-destructive, per se, but they see rejection as the end result of every relationship, and to them it is inevitable.  Bringing about this rejection feels like a relief, because if they don't, it just hangs over their heads like a Sword of Damocles.

I guess you could say that they see rejection as their fate or destiny.  The initial high of falling in love with someone makes them disbelieve this temporarily -- but only temporarily.  Then they go right back to believing they will be rejected by their next partner.  They may for a time try to avoid it by being the best gf/bf EVER, and trying to earn your affection, but when this inevitably fails, you'll be back to square one.

[anothercasualty]

I hope one day I can finally disengage my emotions about her and just see her as a severely wounded individual instead of resenting her behaviours.

You and me both. I suspect there are many more on this board that would say the same.

[C.Stein]

I don't know if pwBPD are self-destructive, per se

I recall asking my ex on several occasions why she seemed hell bent on destroying everything good in her life.  Some of the things she did were very self-destructive, as well as relationship destructive.

[Fr4nz]

I don't know if pwBPD are self-destructive, per se, but they see rejection as the end result of every relationship, and to them it is inevitable.  Bringing about this rejection feels like a relief, because if they don't, it just hangs over their heads like a Sword of Damocles.

I guess you could say that they see rejection as their fate or destiny.  The initial high of falling in love with someone makes them disbelieve this temporarily -- but only temporarily.  Then they go right back to believing they will be rejected by their next partner.  They may for a time try to avoid it by being the best gf/bf EVER, and trying to earn your affection, but when this inevitably fails, you'll be back to square one.

Wow, I fully agree!

During the r/s my ex told me, quite often, that all men are, in her mind, equal, in that she cannot believe that a man can truly love her. Mind that she also said that it was her father the first man in her life to "betray" her[1], so she basically assumed that all men behave like her father. Completely broken logic, and she knew this, but she couldn't think differently.

Indeed, "rationally" she was able to see that I loved her; yet, from an emotional point of view she wasn't able to "see" this love. That's really, really sad, because if a person uses such broken logic you cannot build a true intimacy.

Also: when she ended the relationship she said that she was happy she took the decision to leave (instead of me); at that time I found this statement very odd, now I see that by having the "upper hand" in the final decision she avoided to feel abandoned.


[1] From what she said me, her father was not a bad man per sè; my ex's parents divorced when she was 7 y/o, and after that she told me that her father was quite absent, yet she told me he is an affectionate and funny man. Another notable thing to say is that she isn't talking with her father since 2012.

[Fr4nz]

I don't know if pwBPD are self-destructive, per se

I recall asking my ex on several occasions why she seemed hell bent on destroying everything good in her life.  Some of the things she did were very self-destructive, as well as relationship destructive.

The problem is: they often act on immediate impulses because of their extreme emotions/feelings, and do not foresee the devastating effects that behaviours such as extreme raging/fights/etc. have in the long term.

Also, when they go in "fight" mode they may behave in very cruel ways; indeed, when they come back to a "normal" state, it is not rare that they feel profound shame for their actions - even unbeknownst to us, which in turn feeds their profound self-loathing issues.

In conclusion, it's a matter of emotional control, and we all know that BPDs have a stunted emotional intelligence... .

[C.Stein]

I don't know if pwBPD are self-destructive, per se

I recall asking my ex on several occasions why she seemed hell bent on destroying everything good in her life.  Some of the things she did were very self-destructive, as well as relationship destructive.

The problem is: they often act on immediate impulses because of their extreme emotions/feelings, and do not foresee the devastating effects that behaviours such as extreme raging/fights/etc. have in the long term.

Also, when they go in "fight" mode they may behave in very cruel ways; indeed, when they come back to a "normal" state, it is not rare that they feel profound shame for their actions - even unbeknownst to us, which in turn feeds their profound self-loathing issues.

In conclusion, it's a matter of emotional control, and we all know that BPDs have a stunted emotional intelligence... .

My ex never raged and we rarely ever fought.  That is one of the reasons why I have had such a hard time with acceptance.

[Fr4nz]

I don't know if pwBPD are self-destructive, per se

I recall asking my ex on several occasions why she seemed hell bent on destroying everything good in her life.  Some of the things she did were very self-destructive, as well as relationship destructive.

The problem is: they often act on immediate impulses because of their extreme emotions/feelings, and do not foresee the devastating effects that behaviours such as extreme raging/fights/etc. have in the long term.

Also, when they go in "fight" mode they may behave in very cruel ways; indeed, when they come back to a "normal" state, it is not rare that they feel profound shame for their actions - even unbeknownst to us, which in turn feeds their profound self-loathing issues.

In conclusion, it's a matter of emotional control, and we all know that BPDs have a stunted emotional intelligence... .

My ex never raged and we rarely ever fought.  That is one of the reasons why I have had such a hard time with acceptance.

Yours belongs to one of those BPD flavours (according to Theodore Millon's classification) who turn their rage inward... .perhaps it's the "waif" type?

[anothercasualty]

My ex never raged and we rarely ever fought.  That is one of the reasons why I have had such a hard time with acceptance.

YES! I actually told her that I wished there was some anger and rage. It would have made it so much easier to walk away.

[C.Stein]

I don't know if pwBPD are self-destructive, per se

I recall asking my ex on several occasions why she seemed hell bent on destroying everything good in her life.  Some of the things she did were very self-destructive, as well as relationship destructive.

The problem is: they often act on immediate impulses because of their extreme emotions/feelings, and do not foresee the devastating effects that behaviours such as extreme raging/fights/etc. have in the long term.

Also, when they go in "fight" mode they may behave in very cruel ways; indeed, when they come back to a "normal" state, it is not rare that they feel profound shame for their actions - even unbeknownst to us, which in turn feeds their profound self-loathing issues.

In conclusion, it's a matter of emotional control, and we all know that BPDs have a stunted emotional intelligence... .

My ex never raged and we rarely ever fought.  That is one of the reasons why I have had such a hard time with acceptance.

Yours belongs to one of those BPD flavours (according to Theodore Millon's classification) who turn their rage inward... .perhaps it's the "waif" type?

Assuming BPD, I would classify her as primarily inward waif with slight hints of hermit, witch and queen.

[Fr4nz]

Mine was, very very probably, an undiagnosed, hybrid HPD/BPD - frankly I don't know which was the dominant component, since these "activate" in function of the specific context/situation. The HPD component was coming out especially in "social" activities, when there was the opportunity to get the attention from other people; yet, "in private" there was a lot of rage, sadness and strong emotions in general. Finally, it is nedless to say that these two components often worked togheter in order to create the "perfect storm" (or heaven, during the early stages of the r/s).

In any case, my ex is similar to a not-so-extreme mixture of the petulant, impulsive and self-destructive borderline subtypes (according to this classification: www.optimumperformanceinstitute.com/BPD-program/subtypes-of-BPD/).

[C.Stein]

Mine was, very very probably, an undiagnosed, hybrid HPD/BPD

I also believe my ex may be comorbid HPD.  Some of her behavior (past and during our relationship) strongly suggests this possibility.

In any case, my ex is similar to a not-so-extreme mixture of the petulant, impulsive and self-destructive borderline subtypes (according to this classification: www.optimumperformanceinstitute.com/BPD-program/subtypes-of-BPD/).

My ex displayed traits from all these categories. 

[JerryRG]

My ex attempted suicide in my apartment twice and cut, gestures I'm told. Just seems she deliberately tried to ruin everything in her life including bringing me down with her. She asked early on in our relationship if I would ever consider killing myself with her.

She seems bent on destruction of herself and everything around her. So miserable and tormented. Truly sad but being human myself I am only able to endure so much before her pain destroys me as well. Told her many times, I AM NOT GOD! no matter how you demand of me I am finitte.

[C.Stein]

She asked early on in our relationship if I would ever consider killing myself with her.

That is a massive red flag.   

How did you respond to this question?

[JerryRG]

Hi C, looking back I just ignored it, she was so desperate and I was so convinced I had to keep her alive long enough for her to see light.  I guess I'm color blind to red? Only see shades of green, but then again my ability to live in denial is profound. I too was living in the darkness of lies not truth. I hope I did help her in the long run.

Oh how I did think I was God... .

[Fr4nz]

Mine told me she attempted suicide when she was 14 (or 16) y/o, by jumping out of the balcony... .her sis stopped her just before that.

During the relationship, sometimes she told me she was thinking about the suicide, because she basically didn't feel worthy, even though I have to say that these seemed fleeting thoughts, that is, not enough strong to actually implement a suicide. Perhaps I should have considered those thoughts as huge red flags... .

[JerryRG]

Happy she will never be,

Nor her eyes ever see.

Her rage consumes,

All good the blooms,

Within her empty heart.

The fuel that sustains her,

Only drains her,

Oh why didn't I see this this from the start.

Closed me eyes,

To the lies,

And truly I did see.

She never was real,

Though my heart fought to feel,

Happy she will never be.

[MapleBob]

They're looking for unconditional parent--->child style love (because they didn't get it when they were supposed to, as a child), the kind that you can't get from another adult in a romantic relationship, the kind where they can act like children and still be taken care of and forgiven and taught. But if you give it to them they'll resent you for it. pwBPD really really really need a strong therapy plan including re-parenting to address their FOO issues. That's the bottom line, I think.

[WoundedBibi]

I think you're hitting the nail on the head MapleBob.

[FannyB]

They're looking for unconditional parent--->child style love (because they didn't get it when they were supposed to, as a child), the kind that you can't get from another adult in a romantic relationship, the kind where they can act like children and still be taken care of and forgiven and taught. But if you give it to them they'll resent you for it. pwBPD really really really need a strong therapy plan including re-parenting to address their FOO issues. That's the bottom line, I think.

Totally agree with your hypothesis Maplebob - but of course a pwBPD won't see it like that as in their minds they're simply on a neverending search for the mythical 'perfect partner'. Also begs the question as to where that leaves the non partner once realisation dawns.  I don't get how you can have a sexual relationship with someone that effectively needs you to parent them.  I could do either/or, but not fulfill both roles and if you rejected a borderline sexually in order to be the supportive 'parent' that would no doubt trigger abandonment issues. 


Fanny

[WoundedBibi]

That depends, Fanny.

In general I think BPDs want a partner to be a parent and a lover at the same time. Which in itself is weird/an issue/unhealthy.

But it also depends on their take on sexuality. My ex has serious issues with sex. His ehm tool, doesn't function very well. He does like to hit on anyone with a pulse (supply) and loves looking at beautiful women. At the same time a woman is not allowed to go after him, or 'throw herself' at him. That makes her a ehm... lady that earns her living lying down. A woman is not supposed to have any sexual desires. Or show sexuality by having on tight clothes or showing cleavage. At first I thought that just went for 'his woman' and he 'just' had a serious Maria-lady that earns her living lying down-complex. But then we went to a pub where he noticed a girl in a very tight dress and he got incredibly annoyed, if not angry. But the made it very clear he had an ex-employee in which he was very sexually interested and that casual sex wasn't an issue for him as a concept. I suspect something happened between them before I came along.

In that respect he went back and forth between being BPD and a cerebral Narcissist. Utterly confusing.

But yes, at a certain point I started to feel like I was a mother figure. Major turnoff for me. He is quite a bit younger than me so not a feeling I was looking for...

[MapleBob]

I don't get how you can have a sexual relationship with someone that effectively needs you to parent them.  I could do either/or, but not fulfill both roles and if you rejected a borderline sexually in order to be the supportive 'parent' that would no doubt trigger abandonment issues. 

Welllll, there is that. 

It's more like the "Russian doll" or "transactional analysis" kind of idea ... .that we still contain our baby self and our toddler self and our adolescent self and our teenage self and our adult self. All of those "selves" still exist within us. So pwBPD do have an adult part that wants to have sex, but they also have other parts of their selves that need reparenting. You can have ongoing, lingering problems in any of your "ages" that affect the other parts of your self - and you can interact with the world and other people from any of these "ages".

[GreenEyedMonster]

That depends, Fanny.

In general I think BPDs want a partner to be a parent and a lover at the same time. Which in itself is weird/an issue/unhealthy.

But it also depends on their take on sexuality. My ex has serious issues with sex. His ehm tool, doesn't function very well. He does like to hit on anyone with a pulse (supply) and loves looking at beautiful women. At the same time a woman is not allowed to go after him, or 'throw herself' at him. That makes her a ehm... lady that earns her living lying down. A woman is not supposed to have any sexual desires. Or show sexuality by having on tight clothes or showing cleavage. At first I thought that just went for 'his woman' and he 'just' had a serious Maria-lady that earns her living lying down-complex. But then we went to a pub where he noticed a girl in a very tight dress and he got incredibly annoyed, if not angry. But the made it very clear he had an ex-employee in which he was very sexually interested and that casual sex wasn't an issue for him as a concept. I suspect something happened between them before I came along.

In that respect he went back and forth between being BPD and a cerebral Narcissist. Utterly confusing.

But yes, at a certain point I started to feel like I was a mother figure. Major turnoff for me. He is quite a bit younger than me so not a feeling I was looking for...

This rings pretty true for my experience as well.  My ex's mother made sure he wouldn't have sex while she was alive.  He lost his virginity near middle age, after she had died.  She convinced him that if he had sex, he would get HIV and die.  One time his mother verbally ripped him to shreds for being alone with a girl at their house.  He was still terrified of sex during our relationship. 

He was, at the same time, pretty much an exhibitionist and a somatic narcissist.  He described himself as a "very sexual person," which was fairly accurate.  It makes me wonder what his relationship with his mother was really like -- if there was more abuse there than he was willing to talk about.  For a mother to keep her son sexually captive is very disturbing at any rate. 

For him, seeing me as both a mother figure and a sex object didn't seem to be too much of a stretch. 

And perhaps the scariest thing?  I didn't know ANY of this when our relationship began, but this is the SECOND man like this I have encountered.  The first guy I had any sort of romance with, back at age 15, had a very obviously sexual relationship with his mother, which I found out about 6 months in.  That really made me wonder what on earth was the matter with me!  I am a magnet for Norman Bates types!

[WoundedBibi]

Oh dear, for me it was the 2nd of this type too. A bit different, but same type of issues. Number 1 hated his mother (who was clearly disturbed herself), number 2 adores his mother (I once made an innocent remark about his mother after things had gone south and he hissed at me "you stay away from my mother!" and once said  he loved his sister so much it was almost incestious.

[Ab123]

Are BPDS self destructive at their core? Do they through self lothing actually hate themselves? I see my ex as in horrible pain and emptiness and using me and others who love her to set up the ultimate drama where she loses them and suffers the heartbreak of this horrible sad dilemma? Nothing else makes sense about her. She wants my love, I give until I'm almost dead then she pushes my love away?

Again? No understanding crazy?

My ex seemed this way. He threw in some grand notions of self sacrifice to reconcile the cognitive dissonance, I think. It's part of what makes the whole thing so tragic. In hindsight, he sabotaged our relationship - completely blew it up - with a story of sacrifice for his biological family to try to make sense of it to himself. Then, after he was sure I was gone and had moved on, chases after me promising the sun and moon and stars. I think he believes he could deliver too. So, now, he can mourn me as "the one that got away."  But, I'm 90 percent certain that if I went back, he'd blow us up again in 3-6 months.  It's really all very messed up. I feel too sorry for him to be angry. (Just keep telling myself to stay away, or he will destroy me too.).

[FannyB]

I don't get how you can have a sexual relationship with someone that effectively needs you to parent them.  I could do either/or, but not fulfill both roles and if you rejected a borderline sexually in order to be the supportive 'parent' that would no doubt trigger abandonment issues. 

Welllll, there is that. 

It's more like the "Russian doll" or "transactional analysis" kind of idea ... .that we still contain our baby self and our toddler self and our adolescent self and our teenage self and our adult self. All of those "selves" still exist within us. So pwBPD do have an adult part that wants to have sex, but they also have other parts of their selves that need reparenting. You can have ongoing, lingering problems in any of your "ages" that affect the other parts of your self - and you can interact with the world and other people from any of these "ages".

Hi Bob

I totally get how a pwBPD wouldn't see a conflict with a partner effectively parenting them all week then doing the horizontal bop with them on the weekend in order to reward 'good daddy'.   All I'm saying is that once I realised what was needed in the relationship then I wouldn't have been able to split myself to perform both roles as I find the thought distinctly unappealing.    I can do partner or parent - no overlaps in my book. Not sure if that makes me sound healthy or not! 


Fanny

[MapleBob]

I totally get how a pwBPD wouldn't see a conflict with a partner effectively parenting them all week then doing the horizontal bop with them on the weekend in order to reward 'good daddy'.   All I'm saying is that once I realised what was needed in the relationship then I wouldn't have been able to split myself to perform both roles as I find the thought distinctly unappealing.    I can do partner or parent - no overlaps in my book. Not sure if that makes me sound healthy or not! 

Oh I hear you, Fanny! There's some cognitive dissonance there for sure.

I tend to think of John Lennon, actually, and how he used to call Yoko "mother" all the time.