Is this ever going to change?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Sunflower I don't allow it, I can't stop it, all I can do is not engage it, and look for him to be polite and reward that when he does. I'm going to have a 5 min polite check in call with him shortly . I hope I can avoid getting into any drama.

[unicorn2014]

Sunflower I don't allow it, I can't stop it, all I can do is not engage it, and look for him to be polite and reward that when he does. I'm going to have a 5 min polite check in call with him shortly . I hope I can avoid getting into any drama.

[formflier]

I don't really care if he's feeling rejected.

I'm rejecting the relationship as it is now in the hopes he will change his situation.

This is why, this is EXACTLY why we keep imploring Unicorn to step away for a week, couple weeks, whatever.

She may start missing the guy or caring about him during that period of time.

If she does, then find a healthy way to continue.

If she doesn't miss him, then find a way to end the relationship.

The emotional warfare Unicorn has been choosing to engage in is unhealthy for both parties in the r/s.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Formflier I didn't look at that stuff until today, I did disengage. Yesterday the thing that threw me off was the silent treatment after I established a boundary. He prides himself on being able to be comfortable being silent on the phone. To me it's a waste of time. I haven't reacted to any of the trash he's thrown my way since last night.

Im not engaging in emotional war fare.

I'm trying to stay in a relationship I find morally reprehensible by encouraging him to do the right thing. He's the one being aggressive not me.

I'm

Following your advice and doing a 5 min check in call shortly.

I haven't responded to any of his accusations.

Also I don't not care about him but any reference to his physical attraction to me makes me uncomfortable at this point. All I did yesterday was establish a boundary. I didn't put him down, insult or reject him. I took care of me.

[formflier]

I'm

Following your advice and doing a 5 min check in call shortly.

Please follow my advice and check in with him in a week.

FF

[empath]

He's been crossing the line with me for years.

If he has been crossing the line with you for years, why do you continue to allow him to do that? When people have issues that repeatedly come up, usually, they are getting something out of the situation. Once they discover how the situation benefits them, they can understand how they contribute to the issues.

How is it benefiting you personally?

I wonder if this has anything to do with it

He's lucky I'm still putting up with him.

[unicorn2014]

If he wasn't married and living out of state I would want to be in a relationship with him so I'm patiently waiting for him to change those things. I'm treating him like a close friend at this point, he still thinks we're in an intimate relationship. I love him but I'm not going to be intimate with him again until he changes those two things. I can't tell him this again because it will set him off but he knows where I stand. All I did yesterday was gently remind him of this boundary and it set him off. I suppose next time I can just ignore his comment which will also get a blast of hot air. Or I can simply not tell him next time  my d15 shows up with a hickey on her neck because then he will have nothing to reference, even if it's to say he would never do that to me, at least not on purpose. Those were his words and that's what made me uncomfortable .

[sweetheart]

If he wasn't married and living out of state I would want to be in a relationship with him so I'm patiently waiting for him to change those things. I'm treating him like a close friend at this point, he still thinks we're in an intimate relationship. I love him but I'm not going to be intimate with him again until he changes those two things. I can't tell him this again because it will set him off but he knows where I stand. All I did yesterday was gently remind him of this boundary and it set him off. I suppose next time I can just ignore his comment which will also get a blast of hot air. Or I can simply not tell him next time  my d15 shows up with a hickey on her neck because then he will have nothing to reference, even if it's to say he would never do that to me, at least not on purpose. Those were his words and that's what made me uncomfortable .

 

[unicorn2014]

I tried being polite and this is what I get

So when I say I miss you

No response and you talk about D15 instead... .

Very good

Ms. Unicorn

I will let you know when will be available to receive phone calls from you

>I

How do you suggest I respond? I haven't said anything yet. He's being very hurtful. He expects me to miss him after the way he treated me last night?

[empath]

If he wasn't married and living out of state I would want to be in a relationship with him so I'm patiently waiting for him to change those things.

So, you're hoping that he will change so that you will be able to be in a relationship and live closer together -- in the future. I imagine that you would like more contact, including in-person contact at that time.

[unicorn2014]

We were in a relationship until I found out his divorce hadn't been filed and called it off. That was last September. I haven't seen him since last June. My values don't allow me to be in an intimate relationship with a married man. Now he's being very punitive to me because I established a boundary with him last night. This is very hard.

[sweetheart]

Yes it is very hard Unicorn, boundaries are.

Boundaries are hard because they can protect you from perpetuating the dysfunction, but you also run the risk of alienating him further and loosing him.

If you can keep yourself from just not responding/reacting to these kind of comments when he makes them and responding only to interactions that feel ok for you, then you are modelling the types of healthy responses that you want to form part of your friendship.

How does that sound to you?

[Sunfl0wer]

How do you suggest I respond? I haven't said anything yet. He's being very hurtful. He expects me to miss him after the way he treated me last night?

Let go of the drama and who is right/wrong. Let go of the hurt feelings or the resentment enough to take yourself out of the day to day drama



Step 2 - Take a step backward

Things aren't as they once were. They probably haven't been for a long time. You have tried everything you can to resolve matters. Things got better for a while, but there were problems again. For some things, you have just given up.

It may not be obvious to you,but all of this has damaged you. You are likely now a part of the problem, too. Most likely you have lost your ability to see things clearly. You may have lost your ability to feel things properly. You may be deeply caught up in the drama, too close to everything to actually see.

You need space. Emotional space. Intellectual space.

This may not be easy to do. In the past this may have triggered your partner to be more consuming and needy. Or maybe they pushed you away and became angry or retaliatory. Or maybe you wanted them to notice and they didn't, leaving you feeling hurt.

When our partner suffers from borderline personality disorder, they often like to control our "space". It gives them comfort. Taking away that comfort is often triggering to them. After all, fear of abandonment and rejection sensitivity are classic symptoms of this disorder.

So, this is a bit of a delicate thing. The objective is not to move out and live on a mountain - it is simply to let go of the drama and the battle of who is right/wrong. Let go of the hurt feelings or the resentment just enough to take yourself out of the day to day drama - long enough for you to see things more clearly.

You should do this privately without notifying your partner - just quietly make time. Maybe take more time at the gym, more time in the yard working, maybe extend a business trip by a day or two. Quietly clear enough time/peace so you can re-balance yourself, think more clearly, and be a little more open minded.

For now, accept that things are not what you want them to be, that they may not be fair, and that bad things have happened. Accept that your partner has a complex disorder that is not just going to go away. This is not to say that we should agree with any of this or to say that it is OK. It's just important to surrender a bit here, let go of the drama.

How do you do this? You know your partner better than anyone. You know what it will take. Maybe admit that you are wrong, maybe postpone things, maybe give in to some simple things your partner wants. It's not a lifetime commitment, it's just a way to buy time.

Self care is important here - see your dentist, exercise, get enough sleep, eat well. This will all help to clear your mind.

They may feel they "won". You may feel they "won". Just take comfort in knowing that the wise general knows about sacrificing a battle to win the overall war. For now, we're probably not sure exactly what war this is and this is one of the reasons why you need this healthy space.

Reread!

[formflier]

If he wasn't married and living out of state I would want to be in a relationship with him so I'm patiently waiting for him to change those things. I'm treating him like a close friend at this point, he still thinks we're in an intimate relationship. I love him but I'm not going to be intimate with him again until he changes those two things. I can't tell him this again

Listen, this is the type of emotional warfare I am talking about and you are denying, and they posting about doing.

Tell him where he stands, let him make a choice to continue the r/s or not.

Reasonable to give him the opportunity to tell you where you stand.

Take time away after getting this information and consider your future.

You are doing the same type of thing to him that he did to you.  That is punishing.  I'm not aware of any r/s that has improve by one partner (even one who may have legitimate grievances) punishing the other for their transgressions.

You have the power to stop the bloodletting or to continue it.  This is on you, not him.

Yes this is very frank, direct talk.  I hope you can hear it.

FF

[unicorn2014]

I am not punishing him. I tried to have a civil 5 min conversation with him and I had to end it because he was attacking me. When I hung up this is what I got

Based on how you treat me and how you talk to me we are clearly no longer in an intimate or romantic relationship any longer, so I will adjust my behavior accordingly.

If you would like to talk with me about D15 in the future just give me a heads up so I will be expecting your call & give you my undivided attention

You hung up on me and you have made your choice

And I called you back and it went to VM so now you are avoiding me

I can not allow you to hurt me any more

I am going to try to call you one more time

If of goes to VM I am done trying

I called and that is that

You do not read or respond to my txt and you do not take my call... .You do not respond to me being warm and affectionate to you... .I get it

I appreciate your posts and will reread them. He's being very hurtful to me because I'm not encouraging him to think about our physical relationship. He's the one who's actually punishing me for upholding my boundary. I haven't said anything insulting or hurtful to him.

[unicorn2014]

Yes it is very hard Unicorn, boundaries are.

Boundaries are hard because they can protect you from perpetuating the dysfunction, but you also run the risk of alienating him further and loosing him.

If you can keep yourself from just not responding/reacting to these kind of comments when he makes them and responding only to interactions that feel ok for you, then you are modelling the types of healthy responses that you want to form part of your friendship.

How does that sound to you?

That sounds good. I tried to have a civil 5 min conversation with him and when I told him I was hurt and saddened by how he was treating me he threw it back in my face so I hung up on him as I was outside the library. I'm not pushing him away or rejecting him, I'm simply not comfortable with him referencing our physical relationship at this point in time. He's the one that's mistreating me which is why I ended the conversation . I know the ground I am standing on is solid, but I'm in a lot of pain.

He claims calling me was a mistake.

I'm not going to respond to his attempts to manipulate me and this is going to be hard. He thinks he's entitled to treat me this way, he sees nothing wrong with what he is doing. I feel emotionally abused and its up to me to distance myself from him until he can treat me civilly. This is very difficult .

[formflier]

He's being very hurtful to me

Do you think he believes he is being hurtful to you?

FF

[sweetheart]

Yes it is difficult very difficult.  

There is no quick fix for this and it might be painful for some time to come.

You're right it is up to you to protect yourself emotionally from what is happening, but you can still reach out to him on a day to day level, keeping things focused around safe, neutral subjects that are not triggering. Does this sound doable for you, are there other options you could think of ?

He is most likely going to continue to see there is nothing wrong with what he is doing, it will be up to you to model appropriate behaviour and responses without stating directly what it is about his behaviour that is upsetting you. How do you feel about doing this?

Taking tiny, safe, incremental steps might help you deal better with how you are feeling, so that you feel less hurt and overwhelmed.  

[Daniell85]

Will you stop hanging up on him?

Why do you hang up on the guy. You are insisting he treat you with consideration and respect and you refuse to even hold your own self to that standard.


Is it really that hard to say I need to go, goodbye?

We are talking about basic standards of behavior here.

Just because someone is being difficult you retaliate?

Stop retaliating. Stop retaliating. Stop retaliating.

[unicorn2014]

He's being very hurtful to me

Do you think he believes he is being hurtful to you?

FF

He apologized so I think I weathered this storm.

[empath]

Okay, lets go back to the phone call... .

Yesterday's hang up, by him, was not like the rest. I was telling him my daughter's crush gave her a hickey, he said "I'll never do that to you", and that made me uncomfortable. I told him he first of all that wasn't appropriate for somebody our ages and second of all he shouldn't be talking to me about that until he was divorced. Dead silence. The after I went in the store I said "are we done having an awkward silence?" He responded "one, its not awkward and two I essentially shut the conversation down by what you said."

He prides himself on being able to be dead quiet on the phone but not be having an awkward silence. I find that infuriating.

I said "good, I'm glad I shut the conversation down, I want you to take me seriously".

He hung up on me, didn't call back, I didn't call back

After he said that he wouldn't do that to you, you told him what he should and shouldn't do. Those are not boundaries. Boundaries are lines to protect ourselves, not to control what the other person does or doesn't do. They usually start with "I" statements. In this case, "I am uncomfortable talking about the physical aspects of our relationship while you are married/unavailable, so I cannot talk to you anymore right now." Then you follow through on that.

When things are expressed in "you should/shouldn't/can/can't", those are ways that we try to control other people; they aren't boundaries.

[unicorn2014]

Yes it is difficult very difficult.  

There is no quick fix for this and it might be painful for some time to come.

You're right it is up to you to protect yourself emotionally from what is happening, but you can still reach out to him on a day to day level, keeping things focused around safe, neutral subjects that are not triggering. Does this sound doable for you, are there other options you could think of ?

Yes! I called him back when I got home and we had a 5 min conversation about my d15, he wanted to report some progress to me. He apologized for hurting me.  Once he realized he had hurt me he actually asked to start over. Initially I said we could talk when I got back from my d15 orientation tonight but then he called me so I called him back. Everything seems to be fine for now, I told him I didn't react to him and it seems not to have caused any lasting damage so we can move forward now. That felt good. I have one win under my belt.

He is most likely going to continue to see there is nothing wrong with what he is doing, it will be up to you to model appropriate behaviour and responses without stating directly what it is about his behaviour that is upsetting you. How do you feel about doing this?

I think I can do this. I didn't react to him last night or this morning I finally told him how I felt this afternoon, he could hear the emotion in my voice because I was sad and hurt and that is why he apologized. I don't think he realized he hurt me so I suppose it was good I was vulnerable with him. I think I can put this little storm behind us without much damage, and perhaps be just a tiny bit prepared for the next one: don't react. It seemed to have worked this time so I think I will try it again next time.

Taking tiny, safe, incremental steps might help you deal better with how you are feeling, so that you feel less hurt and overwhelmed.  

Thank you so much, that was very helpful. I was able to affirm to him that I want to be in a relationship with him, that I don't want to talk about the past, that I am waiting for him to divorce and relocate. That to me is being as affirmative as I can. It is letting him know I still want to be with him despite everything we have been through together and that I am still waiting, patiently, and calmly, for him to get his act together.

There is another issue I want to talk about, his sensitivity to me, specifically around his relationship to my d15. On the one hand he wants me to pay attention to it, on the other hand if I do pay attention to it I get punished for it. Is there a way I can bring this up to him?

[unicorn2014]

Will you stop hanging up on him?

Why do you hang up on the guy. You are insisting he treat you with consideration and respect and you refuse to even hold your own self to that standard.


Is it really that hard to say I need to go, goodbye?

We are talking about basic standards of behavior here.

Just because someone is being difficult you retaliate?

Stop retaliating. Stop retaliating. Stop retaliating.

I wasn't retaliating, I was following the advice of a sr. ambassador. It doesn't matter who hung up on whom. I was taking a step back. I was in a public place and he was attacking me. I gave myself 5 min on the phone call. He didn't have a bad reaction to the hang up, in fact he apologized for hurting me, and he called me back. There was another woman sitting in the same area I was in and I didn't think it was an appropriate place to have that conversation as well.

Last night's problem was him telling me he would never give me a hickey like my d15's crush gave her, and me telling him that wasn't appropriate for him to talk about while he was still married. He got insulted and offended but I was just upholding a boundary. I didn't say anything nasty or insulting. He just doesn't get it. There is no going back to what we once had until he is divorced. I don't bring it up except when he crosses my boundary. I didn't react to him hanging up on me or to him being nasty to me but when I did talk to him this afternoon he could hear the hurt in my voice and he apologized because it was real.

A former site director said it right when he said that I bent my values to be in a relationship with him because he said he was getting a divorce but when I found out it wasn't filed that changed everything, my boundaries snapped back into place. The only reason I permitted the relationship in the first place is because he assured me he was getting a divorce.

I also learned from another sr. ambassador on this site, as well as others on this thread not to talk about his divorce. That's very hard for me, on the one hand I want to know where it's at, on the other hand I have to stay out of it, and I have been. I only affirm that I'm waiting for him to get a divorce when he crosses my boundary.

Its a very difficult situation.

[unicorn2014]

Okay, lets go back to the phone call... .

Yesterday's hang up, by him, was not like the rest. I was telling him my daughter's crush gave her a hickey, he said "I'll never do that to you", and that made me uncomfortable. I told him he first of all that wasn't appropriate for somebody our ages and second of all he shouldn't be talking to me about that until he was divorced. Dead silence. The after I went in the store I said "are we done having an awkward silence?" He responded "one, its not awkward and two I essentially shut the conversation down by what you said."

He prides himself on being able to be dead quiet on the phone but not be having an awkward silence. I find that infuriating.

I said "good, I'm glad I shut the conversation down, I want you to take me seriously".

He hung up on me, didn't call back, I didn't call back

After he said that he wouldn't do that to you, you told him what he should and shouldn't do. Those are not boundaries. Boundaries are lines to protect ourselves, not to control what the other person does or doesn't do. They usually start with "I" statements. In this case, "I am uncomfortable talking about the physical aspects of our relationship while you are married/unavailable, so I cannot talk to you anymore right now." Then you follow through on that.

When things are expressed in "you should/shouldn't/can/can't", those are ways that we try to control other people; they aren't boundaries.

I hear what you are saying and I got the wording wrong, but the sentiment right. Next time I will say what you said, I will write it down in my notebook so I can memorize it. He accused me of shutting down the conversation and I told him he was right, I was, because I wanted him to take me seriously, and that's when he hung up on me. Thank you for your suggestion, I will take it to heart.

____

I should add that whenever I point out to him he's still married his latest line is that his lawyer says its just a contract. I of course have not talked to his lawyer on the phone have not seen any documentation, have just heard his words. To me what he is saying is insulting and demeaning, its basically dismissing and discounting my feelings as if they don't matter. How do you suggest I respond to that?

Also for me it would be "... .while you are married/living in another state" because the unavailability of a LDR is now very uncomfortable and inappropriate for me. What do you think?

[formflier]

He's being very hurtful to me

Do you think he believes he is being hurtful to you?

FF

He apologized so I think I weathered this storm.

And this answers the question how?

FF

[sweetheart]

Unicorn I think for now and perhaps for a while wherever you possibly can, keep things low key, emotionally safe, neutral and away from potentially triggering difficult areas.

Areas involving your daughter, the divorce, all things BPD  . I understand that this will probably feel counter intuitive to you, going against how you have been trying to resolve and improve things between you before, remember though this will protect you, reduce the potential for conflict.

What matters for now is helping yourself feel better, calmer, more grounded, remember again, there is no rush, things are as they are for now.

Focus on things you enjoy doing together, little things, good things, enjoyable things, what are they? Make a list if necessary to help you reframe your expectations and bring your focus back to less triggering areas.

Where can you invest your energy positively to get the best outcome for the relationship as it is today? Keep yourself in the moment, now, nowhere else, can you do that?

Unicorn in choosing to stay, the hard work will be done by you, as unfair as it may sound, that's the reality of a relationship with someone with BPD. As the non, the healthier person, if you choose to accept, and it sounds like you have already , it will be up to you to be the one leading by example, modelling healthy emotional behaviours and interactions. How does this sound, doable with support and guidance?

[unicorn2014]

Unicorn I think for now and perhaps for a while wherever you possibly can, keep things low key, emotionally safe, neutral and away from potentially triggering difficult areas.

Areas involving your daughter, the divorce, all things BPD  . I understand that this will probably feel counter intuitive to you, going against how you have been trying to resolve and improve things between you before, remember though this will protect you, reduce the potential for conflict.

Thank you sweetheart. This is very difficult. Today after berating me for only valuing him for his contribution to my d15 he wanted me to pay attention to the progress he made with her. Then when I said congratulations on your progress he said he was doing it for us. Its a no win situation for me.

What matters for now is helping yourself feel better, calmer, more grounded, remember again, there is no rush, things are as they are for now.

Focus on things you enjoy doing together, little things, good things, enjoyable things, what are they? Make a list if necessary to help you reframe your expectations and bring your focus back to less triggering areas.

Where can you invest your energy positively to get the best outcome for the relationship as it is today? Keep yourself in the moment, now, nowhere else, can you do that?

Its difficult because it is a LDR but I am very interested in the work he does, both for other people and for himself. That is something we can talk about. We also enjoy talking about cooking and gardening and fashion and literature and tv and cinema together. That is why I enjoy the relationship so much when we are getting along, we have so many connection points.

Unicorn in choosing to stay, the hard work will be done by you, as unfair as it may sound, that's the reality of a relationship with someone with BPD. As the non, the healthier person, if you choose to accept, and it sounds like you have already , it will be up to you to be the one leading by example, modelling healthy emotional behaviours and interactions. How does this sound, doable with support and guidance?

Yes that is why I come to this board and that is why I think this particular situation was a win as I did not react, and I have a better way of responding next time instead allowing him to give me the ST: "I am uncomfortable talking about the physical aspects of our relationship while you are still married and living out of state, so I can not talk to you anymore right now." Yesterday I allowed him to stay on the phone with me without saying anything at all which was a waste of my time and his time and I don't want to go through that again.

[Turkish]

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