Empathy, I'm confused

[Ahoy]

So I'm a little confused with something, I was wondering if I could get some help.

I'm quite sure my ex-wife is a high-functioning pwBPD, however my my understanding is people with this illness have no empathy. In looking back at my relationship, back when we lived together, although its true I was often the one comforting her after her long, drama-filled days, however I work quite long, unpredictable hours and I remember many times when I would come home exhausted and she would order me to take a bath and bring me a cold drink, there are other times, usually after I was stressed where she would do something nice to make my day easier.

i guess my question is, Is this a sort of empathy? I know when we lived in separate states, I got very little sympathy from her for being in an isolated town while she was off with her friends (and probably my replacement), however in the good times, she felt to me like a genuine, caring individual and she SEEMS to care very dearly and deeply for her core girlfriend group where she now lives.

As you can see I'm pretty confused, is her caring side an act, or is she maybe actually genuine when she is not triggered?

[C.Stein]

So I'm a little confused with something, I was wondering if I could get some help.

I'm quite sure my ex-wife is a high-functioning pwBPD, however my my understanding is people with this illness have no empathy.

I believe this is a general misconception.  From what I have seen other people report, including diagnosed borderlines, and in my own experience pwBPD are very much capable of empathy ... .up to a point.  That point being intimate relationships.  I believe once there is emotional/personal risk and/or consequence involved the empathy, understanding and compassion go out the window.  My ex was very much capable of empathy and compassion except when it came to me. 

In looking back at my relationship, back when we lived together, although its true I was often the one comforting her after her long, drama-filled days, however I work quite long, unpredictable hours and I remember many times when I would come home exhausted and she would order me to take a bath and bring me a cold drink, there are other times, usually after I was stressed where she would do something nice to make my day easier.

i guess my question is, Is this a sort of empathy?

Not really IMO.  I see this as her recognizing you needed to relax or needed a hand.  This is what any attentive partner would/should do in a healthy relationship. 

I know when we lived in separate states, I got very little sympathy from her for being in an isolated town while she was off with her friends (and probably my replacement), however in the good times, she felt to me like a genuine, caring individual and she SEEMS to care very dearly and deeply for her core girlfriend group where she now lives.

Exactly what my ex is like (see bold), and a BIG reason why I have had an enormously difficult time detaching from her.

As you can see I'm pretty confused, is her caring side an act, or is she maybe actually genuine when she is not triggered?

It is not an act IMO.  The problem is consistency and dependability and with truly intimate (not sex) actions towards a loved one.  If you look back at the stuff you found caring and genuine do you find those acts to be superficial with little to no emotional risk involved?

[heartandwhole]

Hi Ahoy,

Welcome to bpdfamily!    I'm glad you are here. I think you ask a good question. As we learn more and more about BPD, it can get confusing as to what behavior is "true" or not. It's important to remember that people with BPD are just people like you and me. Yes, they can have huge challenges in relationships (the closer the relationship, usually the harder the challenges—that's why your ex may have seemed better functioning with her friends), but they can also be loving and caring, or mean, or funny, or jealous, or weak—just like us.  

I know there are stories of behavior on these boards that make us all gasp with horror and/or recognition, but there are also members (like me) who experienced a lot of caring and empathy (and yes: dysregulation, projection, coldness at times) from pwBPD.

So, I think that it is more than likely that your ex gf does and did feel empathy, and that wasn't necessarily an act. BPD occurs on a spectrum, so everyone who has the disorder or traits is an individual and has his/her own personal way of coping. Even though many of us recognize the defense mechanisms often used by pwBPD (we, as partners often use strategies to cope that are also very recognizable), there is no one size fits all with BPD.

What do you think, Ahoy? Thanks for sharing, and keep writing. We are listening and want to help.

heartandwhole

[Ahoy]

I do think that when we started long distance, I told her how I wasn't coping with the work and missing her, she brushed it off or didn't acknowledge it. It was hard for me but at the same time she was at max stress in her home state trying to deal wit her BP dad and estranged sister, the squirrels in my head say she was unable to give me the care and attention I so badly needed. I think in a true relationship, however we should have both been there for each other.

I know in the end it doesn't matter, we are separated and I need to move on, but untangling this mystery is so important to me... .too bad it's like reading a nancy drew mystery and someone ripped out the final chapter!

In hindsight, think the care was there there, just at a very superficial level. Thanks guys I think I might have just found one of those missing pages

[C.Stein]

the squirrels in my head say she was unable to give me the care and attention I so badly needed.

Why did you badly need this care and attention?

[peace74]

I have a question regarding empathy also.

Like Ahoy said things seemed to be very shallow or superficial.  I know emotional immaturity comes along with BPD.  I also understand that all this falls on a spectrum.  My husband never seemed to be able to connect at a deep emotional level.

My question is can they feel guilt and shame without feeling empathy?  I know when he did something that hurt me he did feel guilt and shame.  However, he didn't seem to truly get or feel how his actions truly affected me.  So I guess the guilt and shame even was more about him and his image and ego?  

Looking back it seems like at times he wanted me to be happy and would be nice or do something for me.  More often than not though, it seemed he was doing it as a trade off to get what he wanted and he would even make comments indicating that.  Like I mowed the grass I guess you owe me a special favor.  He never wanted to participate in any household obligations.  I gave up and just asked that he pick up his own trash instead of throwing it on the floor beside wherever he was sitting, etc.  Which he still had problems doing.  I'm talking about basic things that every human being should be responsible for themselves.  Anyway, when he would decide to help and wash a load of laundry or do any other normal household chore he would say to our son "let's help mommy" or some other thing in such a way that made it sound like it was a big favor to me.  It used to irritate me and sometimes I would say "you're helping yourself also because these are your clothes that need washed, and your dishes too".  I also used to tell him that he made me feel like he could replace me with anyone.  He treated everyone the same and as long as he got attention it didn't matter.  I guess this was the objectifying.  It felt like he looked through me as a person like the actual "me" didn't matter.  I described all the behavior to my therapist after he left.  The self-destructive, impulsive behavior, push/pull, anger, no responsibility or accountability, etc.  I am so thankful she brought up BPD because even knowing about it, it is hard to accept or understand.  It has definitely been a help in healing.

[Ahoy]

the squirrels in my head say she was unable to give me the care and attention I so badly needed.

Why did you badly need this care and attention?

Firstly I do classify myself as needy, maybe caretaker/codependent but mainly because I was in a remote community thousands of kms away from her and my friends/family working 70 hour weeks. Doing that suddenly without your wife giving you hugs at the end of a long day was hard!

[WoundedBibi]

I'm with C.Stein and HaW on this. PwBPD might have a PD but are all still individual people. So there is not possible to write 'software' for all of their behaviour (if this, than that) all the time.

In my experience they can show empathy. But as said by C.Stein it is usually shown in a way that doesn't involve emotional investment on their part. So it's very practical (bath, drink) or support that doesn't go much beyond "he said that? What a jerk!" (so saying what you want to hear and not what you need to hear). The closer you are to them on an emotional level the more difficult it becomes to show empathy. And I think what also plays a role is physical distance. If you're not physically close to them they have even more difficulty showing empathy. If you're not there it's difficult for them to imagine/remember/feel you are an actual real person. And sometimes they completely forget about you if you aren't physically close. Out of sight out of mind.

So when you were in separate states you needed emotional support which she can't give because she doesn't know how, you were in a relationship together which makes empathy more difficult (closer is scarier) and you were physically apart (out of sight).

[C.Stein]

the squirrels in my head say she was unable to give me the care and attention I so badly needed.

Why did you badly need this care and attention?

Firstly I do classify myself as needy, maybe caretaker/codependent but mainly because I was in a remote community thousands of kms away from her and my friends/family working 70 hour weeks. Doing that suddenly without your wife giving you hugs at the end of a long day was hard!

Given the circumstances, specifically her not being there physically, how could she have given you care and attention in a manner that would have satisfied this perceived need?

[WoundedBibi]

I know when he did something that hurt me he did feel guilt and shame.  However, he didn't seem to truly get or feel how his actions truly affected me.  So I guess the guilt and shame even was more about him and his image and ego? 

Yes. Lack of ego actually. PwBPD have a lack of self and are convinced they are bad, unloveable people. They are just trying really hard not to feel that. Not just because the feeling in itself is bad but also because pwBPD feel everything to the extreme. So feeling something bad feels to them as if they are going to die. So basically a lot of what they do is to drown out their inner pain. Like putting their fingers in their ears and going "lalalalalala! I can't hear you!"

When you show or say he has hurt you, for a split second there is the shame and the guilt that he is a bad unloveable man taking up valuable space on this earth. He doesn't want to feel this all encompassing feeling so after they start feeling something negative they either do something impulsive, destructive or go into a rage. Those actions help them to drown out the feeling. For a moment.

But despite they feeling everything so excessively strong they cannot put themselves in your shoes and understand/feel/imagine why you feel hurt. It's like they are using up all their ability to feel for themselves and there is nothing left for you. Or anybody else.

We can feel for ourselves or others. They can just feel for themselves. Really feel I mean, beyond the practical bit of draw a bath and serve a drink after a long day.

[Ahoy]

the squirrels in my head say she was unable to give me the care and attention I so badly needed.

Why did you badly need this care and attention?

Firstly I do classify myself as needy, maybe caretaker/codependent but mainly because I was in a remote community thousands of kms away from her and my friends/family working 70 hour weeks. Doing that suddenly without your wife giving you hugs at the end of a long day was hard!

Its a very fair question, if I could explain, when she moved it was like she immediately forgot I existed. We shared such a crazy-close bond in our remote town, calling multiple times a day, visiting each other at work, having lunch every day, I became used to this constant contact. When she moved, all of this attention became focused on her friends, I guess they filled that need she had. I was only looking for a decent phone call every couple of days, no distractions, just a nice chat with my wife. What I got instead was 5 minutes of phone call a day, usually while she was driving between social engagements and heavily distracted because she was driving. No goodnight messages, I guess the love sort of vanished.

My actions when we started long distance were not amazing, I have a lot of regrets but our relationship dynamic just shifted so much, I think my actions sped up the devaluation stage greatly and they are some of my deepest regrets.

[WoundedBibi]

I think my actions sped up the devaluation stage greatly and they are some of my deepest regrets.

This I recognize. This regret haunted me for months. Until I realized my emphasis was on 'my actions' and the picture completely changed if I put the emphasis on 'sped up'. If it got sped up the destination was still 'end of relationship'. We just got there faster. And maybe that wasn't necessarily a bad thing. At that time of course like everybody here I wanted to hold on, I wished the relationship would have been longer, I wished I would have had more time with him. But the more I read about BPD, especially on this board the more I realized I probably had a lucky escape. The longer it lasts the bigger the damage. The longer it lasts the longer the recovery.

To some degree I still feel a bit bad about speeding up the end but I do realize the end was inevitable.

The bit I still feel bad about is mostly an ego thing; not being perfect in my reactions, not behaving calm enough because I felt clumsy and panicky around him at the end, not being mature enough in my reactions, not grasping enough something was wrong with him.

I also feel a bit bad because I made him feel bad but at the same time I realize he would have felt bad anyway. If I had behaved differently he might have reacted differently but he still would have felt bad. Because he feels bad about himself, and people and the world. He is at his core a very unhappy person and whatever my reactions or actions THAT would not have changed.

So I have not forgiven myself completely for everything yet but I have forgiven myself for speeding up the end of the relationship. It would have been uglier if I hadn't.

Maybe you can forgive yourself too.

[Ahoy]

You know what I'm the most proud of? without knowing what BPD was, something in my gut told me by the end that something wasn't right and I ended it. If I was to move interstate with her (we had JUST bought an investment property which we couldn't move into and had zero savings to move/buy a new house) my salary would have been less than half and we would be facing bankruptcy.

I made every compromise under the sun to keep it going to the point my friends/family said any more and you will lose respect for yourself.

A few weeks later I told myself "what the hell this is your wife, give it all up for goodness sake, MOVE" but by then it was too late, I was painted black and she had formally moved on with my replacement.

I could have moved interstate and lost everything I worked hard for these last 4 years and something made me stop and think about me, (well my support network did).

If I had moved, we would have ended sooner or later and I would have been in strange state with nothing!

Im still not happy with who I am (even before learning about BPD and co-dependency) but at least I'm healing from a stronger position (and not bankrupt)

I think you are 100% right, this is all still fresh but I think the first step to my healing will be forgiving myself, provided I truly learn my lessons and learn from my mistakes.

[C.Stein]

I think you are 100% right, this is all still fresh but I think the first step to my healing will be forgiving myself, provided I truly learn my lessons and learn from my mistakes.

And this is the hidden gift that comes from a relationship with a borderline.  You have an opportunity now to see things about yourself that you may have never seen had you not experienced this.  This can lead to improving yourself and your future relationship(s) so don't squander this opportunity.  It will be hard, self-reflection and change always is, however you will come out on the other side a better and strong person as a result.

[Concerns]

Hi, I'm going to lean towards WoundedBibi. My assessment is pwBPD lack empathy. Empathy really is the ability of one person to "put yourself in another person's shoes" and feel the emotions they may feel about a given situation. I think BPD's, in general, lack this capability. It's the nature of BPD itself, the present and primary concern at the outset of a given situation is to react. That reaction is driven inward and how it affecting them.

When she helped when you were sick was sympathy and not empathy. One marker I've seen is to see if they really "feel" you. I'm not talking about understanding. Human communication can feel these things. You know if something happens to you and the other person is really feeling what you are feeling. Its an empathetic connection. The BPD's I've had contact with are missing this connection or will try and mirror the emotion or feeling just something is just missing. You can feel it in your gut.

Now I cannot say that the empathy is not truly there and its just the disorder getting in the way. However, they not dysregulating all the time and there are opportunities to feel empathy for another. I've just never seen it.

[MapleBob]

We can feel for ourselves or others. They can just feel for themselves.

I think this is really the bottom line of it. My uBPDexgf was very capable of doing and saying things to show that she loved me, but it definitely felt like she was too busy managing her own feelings/perceptions to have the capability to step into my feelings/perceptions for, like, even a second.

[once removed]

some food for thought:

It is interesting that the architects of the DSM 5 recommended that a personality disorder be diagnosed when a person has diminished skills in two of the following -- either "empathy or intimacy" and either "identity or self direction".

The words they use to rate impaired empathy are telling (each one is part of  rating):

• See others as controling

• Excessively self-referential

• Unawareness of effect of own behavior on others

• Unable to consider alternative perspectives

• Threatened by differences of opinion

• Bewildered about peoples’ thoughts

• Destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others

It might be eye opening to see how family members score you (and each other) using this scale.

Skip

DSM 5 Empathy Assessment Levels

Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing. Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.

Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent is awareness of effect of own behavior on others.

Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.

Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

Extreme Impairment (4) Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance). Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.

ps. empathy is not limited to the ability to put oneself in anothers shoes - in fact that can just be projection. there are many, many things that we can in no way relate to, but still feel and show empathy; regardless, two people experiencing the same event will experience it differently.