Perhaps a way forward on church and kids

[formflier]

There is a lot that I don't like about the church my wife wants to join and there is a lot that I do like.

Question is, how to I accentuate the good and minimize the bad for the overall benefit of my family (specifically kids).

Family Bible studies have been centering for our family.  P is huge fan of them.  Wife seems to be becoming less a fan.

My guess is that it is because I have been focusing on healthy behavior.


Edifying:  Yep... Biblical term but basically means that your words are meant to "build others up".  Pretty anti-BPD.  I even occasionally get my wife talking to them about this... .

Grace before truth:  If you look at how Jesus communicated, usually there is "grace" before "truth".  Again... .pretty anti-BPD.  I've even taught lessons on SET using this. 

There has been a detectable "shift" in the way that kids are talking to each other.  There is more to be done.

How does this tie in with the church.  The church is crystal clear that dad's/husbands are in charge and responsible. 

For instance:  My wife is wanting to have kids evaluate themselves throughout the day and "report back" to each other on their sin.  This idea came out of nowhere during devotions today.  I have no interest in this, I think it could lead to "self-hate".

My goal is to shut it down... .but to do so tactfully by leaving ball in her court.

I want to stay open to the idea, provide a pathway for her and I to talk about it, study and pray so that we are both on  same page with what we are teaching.

In the interim, that "lesson plan" will be shelved while we still discuss it.

If the "who are you to shelve my lesson plan" comes up... .I will point her to church leadership for clarification. 

While I won't say this to her... .my goal is to teach love, kindness and consideration for others during family devotions.

I'll leave judgment to Sunday sermon.

Last thought:  I asked senior pastor about the "tone" of services and balancing "judgment" with "grace" during a class we took about joining the church. 

He acknowledged the tone issue and said that many where "newbies" that needed to hear it.  I asked the question in context of what my children were being taught and he followed up with Biblical references and practical advice that "church doesn't get it all done", it's only the starting point.

He clearly said that it was my responsibility and that of other Dad's in the room to "balance" any negativity they may hear in church with "grace" at home. 

So... .if my wife ever said "he won't teach "x" to my kids during devotions" or "he won't let me teach my kids "y" "  It is unbelievable to me that they would ever support her, especially if I have a well thought out plan of what I do want to teach and a future plan to work in my wife's desires for teaching.

Thoughts?

FF

[GaGrl]

My immediate reaction to FFWife telling the children to report their sins each evening would be to suggest the complete opposite -- have them focus on good deeds and behaviors at the level appropriate to their ages (caring, generosity, sharing, helpfulness/assistance, etc.).  Her approach is really a polarity to yours.

Do you think her negative approach is a life reaction to self-loathing?

[formflier]

Do you think her negative approach is a life reaction to self-loathing?

Yes... .

Interesting prescription.  My initial take is that I agree there is a lot to her idea to be discussed further, by her and I.  That I gently start putting in places where the kids can practice or "report" stuff they have done well.

Note:  I'm generally against "reporting yourself" for good or bad behavior.  I want to praise in public and reprimand in private. 

Last thing I want to set up is a "polarity" in teaching.  This is sort of a "delfection/delay" in her teaching and a gentle nudge by me in the right direction.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Wow, FF! It seems like you and your wife are on opposite ends of the spectrum: you're New Testament and she's Old. This report back on sin thing seems really harmful when placed in kid's hands. Yikes. I'm with Gagrl.

Adolescence is a time of kids being really judgmental anyway. I certainly wouldn't want to encourage them to become more so. And there's also sort of a "Big Brother-ish" element to what your wife is proposing. I'd shut that down immediately. 

[KateCat]

Another vote for what Gagrl proposes.

Maybe whenever you have the chance, you can make like Katniss Everdeen, in the epilogue of Hunger Games, speaking to her infant:

Did you have a nightmare? I have nightmares, too. Someday I'll explain it to you, why they came, why they won't ever go away, but I'll tell you how I survive it. I make a list in my head... .of all the good things I've seen someone do. Every little thing I can remember. It's like a game. I do it over and over. Gets a little tedious after all these years, but... .there are much worse games to play.

[empath]

My h grew up in a home that had some serious shame-based religious expressions at home and within their church system. It has been extremely difficult for him to 'feel' that God loves him; he tends to think of God as an angry judge, like his own dad. (I get compared with dad, too) His parents often emphasized his sin, sometimes doling out abusive punishments. He took on that shame and thinks that he 'is' bad and can't seem to get out of that thinking. That keeps him stuck and unable to grow, but he knows the 'right' things to say and do. I think it also contributes to the BPD traits. H's brother doesn't attend church as far as I know, now.

Thankfully, being impulsive means that he is not consistent with his input spiritually in our children's lives. I have had more of an impact and teach them to treat one another with love and respect - love God, love others.

He acknowledged the tone issue and said that many where "newbies" that needed to hear it. 

That's not how Jesus did it... . 

[formflier]

That's not how Jesus did it... . 

It's not that they "ignore" the gospel, but then tend to focus heavily on the letters after the gospels.  So, instead of focusing on how Jesus did it, they focus on what Paul wrote (under Godly inspiration).

I tend to focus on times when

"God actual" wrote things.  10 commandments.

Then

Things that Jesus actually said and did (as a model to follow)

Finally

Things that others said and did under inspiration.


I think one of my goals is to provide consistency in the messages to my children.

FF

[empath]

I think one of my goals is to provide consistency in the messages to my children.

Kids need consistency otherwise they get confused. Heck, adults get confused when there's inconsistency in messages. If the church has different messages than the children are getting at home, that doesn't seem like it would be working toward the goal.

[Notwendy]

My wife is wanting to have kids evaluate themselves throughout the day and "report back" to each other on their sin. 

That sounds really off IMHO.

And the idea that the new and old testament are opposite about sin is a misunderstanding. The two major religions from these texts: Judaism and Christianity have different platforms about sin, but each provide a means to forgiveness and resolution of them.

I support people choosing their own paths, or no religion if they so choose, but in the combined Judao-Christian teachings, sin and redemption are personal in nature. To pit sibling against sibling as little tattle tails on each other doesn't seem to be in the spirit of any kind of religion that promotes harmony between others.

It also smacks of no boundaries. This was an issue in my family- people not respecting boundaries. All this focus on sin seems to me to be shaming and demoralizing.

What about love, forgiveness, charity? How about getting the kids together to speak of what they can do to help a person who is sick? Volunteer in a soup kitchen? Donate clothing or toys to charity. Why not empower your children as agents of God's love in the world rather than an army of little sin police?

[MaybeSo]

For instance:  My wife is wanting to have kids evaluate themselves throughout the day and "report back" to each other on their sin.

I was once taught that sin is really about missing the mark, or falling from grace.

Maybe they can report on the ways they successfully overcame sin with God's help/support and share their successes with each other  eg., I was tempted to tease someone but I didn't, I nearly said something cruel to my sibling and I was able to refrain, I almost lost my temper but managed to calm myself down, I was short-tempered with a loved-one but sincerely apologized and made amends, etc. etc.  

Maybe mom and dad can join in with the sharing?

I'd be looking for ways to meet in the middle and avoid becoming reactionary to her extreme delivery/ideas.  :)on't get hooked into it. If it's not religion, it will be something else.   I think when your P models this for you... .she pivots or probably even leans in... .instead of picking up the rope and getting hooked into your wife's presentation.  If you feel the urgency to change her or make her change her mind, you are hooked into it.   If wife says black, and you say white... .the dance begins.  If wife says black and you say... .hmmm, tell me more, hmmm interesting, ya... .I see where you are going with this (you have to manage your own reactions/triggers/countertransference to do this) ... .and how about if we add xyz too?  

The dance steps just changed.    

[Notwendy]

The Hebrew word for sin is "chet" to miss the mark.

One of the topics we address in my ACA group is religious abuse, and abuse of religion ( two different things). Some of the members have experienced one or both.

Parents influence a child's concept of God, and so it makes sense that disordered parents can present a disordered image of God to a child. Some members have had to work on developing a more realistic idea of what God is to them. Some have changed religions and some have decided to not be religious.

It seems as if the BC, and your wife are focused on sin, but to me that is a dark and narrow focus of a bigger picture. I agree with FF that it can promote self hate but also pointing fingers at each other. Didn't Jesus say whoever is without sin can throw the first stone? Then why teach kids to point out each other's sins?

Seems like this would divide siblings instead of bringing them closer together. Also if the kids are taught to do this at home, then would they be the sin police at school with their friends?

[Verbena]

Regardless of the church your kids attend, they are getting a very confusing message at home.

Mom takes us to church, Mom reads Bible, Mom talks about God. 

Mom throws fits, Mom treats Dad like garbage, Mom wants us to hate Dad. 

[empath]

Sometimes, pointing out other's sins is taught as a way to draw them to Christianity, especially in certain groups. It wouldn't surprise me if this was how FF's church and wife are thinking about it based on the idea that 'newbies' need to hear the judgmentalism or how 'bad' you are.

So, the kids could become 'sin police' at school and be encouraged to do so by the church and FFwife. And, of course, some of these 'sins' that are pointed out are not sins in the first place... .FF is already 'bad' (sinful - because he isn't 'working' and FFwife is working, and not repenting of his sin).

My husband sometimes tells me that our daughters are not 'Christian girls' - what he means is that they aren't uptight about avoiding people who might be sinning or uptight about making it to church on time. I'm glad that he only tells me these things and not them; usually, I just listen, sometimes I'll point out that these things are not necessarily sins.

The things my husband learned in his FOO about God and Christianity are difficult for him to change his thinking about.

[MaybeSo]

I think the saving grace for any child in this kind of setting is to have at least one more balanced parent or adult role model that continues time and time again through skillful means, and through their own self- regulation, and their own calm responses and sharing ... .to influence and demonstrate a better and more balanced way of viewing the world as a whole. An adult that continues to let the child know they are loved just as they are, even though others have different styles and different ways of viewing the world. 

This is really what is in the NONs power to do day-in and day out,  and it's not dependent on someone else changing.  It is not easy.  But it is within the NONs power to do if they stay healthy and take very good care of themselves.  In a country where religious freedom is protected by law, FF will have to mitigate this and other issues too,  in his own way through his own healthy relationship with his kids, inside or outside the marriage.

Let's keep in mind, wife may forget this great new idea and come up w/ something entirely different next week. 

It's not like FF is going to be able control her religious views.  He can't control her.

His energy is best directed on what he can control, and it's not her.  IMHO.

BPD is genius at provoking reenactments of persecution. 

Gotta stop picking-up that rope!

[formflier]

 But it is within the NONs power to do if they stay healthy and take very good care of themselves.
  
His energy is best directed on what he can control, and it's not her.  IMHO.

So... spent a bunch of time on this subject today with P.  Will try a small "deflection" tonight to delay implementation of the "sin police".

My wife is not a big fan of talking to me right now.  I'm going to be interested in learning more about the idea so it can "be consistent" with our other teaching.

Goals are to avoid a direct yes/no thing and counting on her interests to wander off elsewhere over time.

Keeping myself healthy and "up" is a challenge.  But... .I've got to keep it at top of my priority list.


FF

[empath]

I should probably also say that I won't agree to attending a church where there is a fundamentalist and legalist mindset about what Christianity is all about. I don't want that taught to the kids at church, either; the church is more stable than my husband is about his teaching.

Goals are to avoid a direct yes/no thing and counting on her interests to wander off elsewhere over time

I'm a big fan of this tactic.