New Chaos

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

For the past couple of years, my uBPDh has wanted to quit his job as a chaplain. I said that the reasonable and responsible thing would be to find another job to replace the income he earns (he is the sole income earner right now - he tends to sabotage my jobs). With the AD that he has been taking, he has been able to stick it out another couple of years, but it has become increasingly stressful between driving and the interaction around the patients' abusive family situations. This spring, he began having some significant pain issues that have not been resolved nor the sources identified. Additionally, there are some troubling laws that have been passed in our state that impact him directly.

Anyway, he told me that he and the supervisory people at the organization 'sat down' and they 'mutually agreed' that the job wasn't a good fit for him any longer - they brought up his poor job performance. So he is leaving the job in a week and a half.

His 'plan' is to pick up another couple of classes at the college where he is teaching and do some freelance work to supplement. This does not meet our financial needs. In my discussions with him and others, he has floated the possibility of us 'working together' on the financial situation. The reality is that we don't 'work together' on common problems - I have tried, but he never seems to get the concept of together. Another reality is that I don't have anything significant that I can contribute to the financial situation right now; I'm trying to finish a training program to enter a new career path, one that I'm not excited about but is a stepping stone to something more. In order for it to be a step, I need to use the earnings to pay down some debt.

As I was thinking today, I was able to define one of my boundaries (I'm getting more of those as the days go by). I am not comfortable with putting my earnings in a common account without being able to make joint decisions about the money going out of that account.

How do I steer through this one?

[empath]

For the past couple of years, my uBPDh has wanted to quit his job as a chaplain. I said that the reasonable and responsible thing would be to find another job to replace the income he earns (he is the sole income earner right now - he tends to sabotage my jobs). With the AD that he has been taking, he has been able to stick it out another couple of years, but it has become increasingly stressful between driving and the interaction around the patients' abusive family situations. This spring, he began having some significant pain issues that have not been resolved nor the sources identified. Additionally, there are some troubling laws that have been passed in our state that impact him directly.

Anyway, he told me that he and the supervisory people at the organization 'sat down' and they 'mutually agreed' that the job wasn't a good fit for him any longer - they brought up his poor job performance. So he is leaving the job in a week and a half.

His 'plan' is to pick up another couple of classes at the college where he is teaching and do some freelance work to supplement. This does not meet our financial needs. In my discussions with him and others, he has floated the possibility of us 'working together' on the financial situation. The reality is that we don't 'work together' on common problems - I have tried, but he never seems to get the concept of together. Another reality is that I don't have anything significant that I can contribute to the financial situation right now; I'm trying to finish a training program to enter a new career path, one that I'm not excited about but is a stepping stone to something more. In order for it to be a step, I need to use the earnings to pay down some debt.

As I was thinking today, I was able to define one of my boundaries (I'm getting more of those as the days go by). I am not comfortable with putting my earnings in a common account without being able to make joint decisions about the money going out of that account.

How do I steer through this one?

[formflier]

Ask him for a number.  A specific dollar amount that he is requesting.  Do not suggest anything back to him... .his idea... his specifics.

I would try to guide him to several specific numbers.

1.  $$ that he believes is reasonable to cut from the budget.
2.  $$ that he believes is reasonable for him to earn "extra" from added time at college and freelancing.
3.  $$ that he believes you are able to provide to the family budget.

I'm going to give Babyducks credit (again) for the "each thing in it's own bucket" idea. 

"Administration" of those dollars is completely separate from the three things listed above.

Remember, less is more.  Do no bring up where your money is deposited.  You control that.  If you have agreed that you will spend $100 per month of your month on family things... .you stroke that check.

If he asks why you won't deposit it in joint account "I don't feel comfortable with that proposed arrangement".  If her persists, assure him that you will provide your part of the bargain (you will stroke the check)... .or... .that you will notify him immediately if that becomes an issue.  (just like he let you know about his job)

Now... .advice that you didn't ask for.

Be prepared for him to bring in no (or little) extra money.  Think through what really matters.  Prioritize.  Turbulence is likely coming... keep your seatbelt on and when all else fails... .be deliberate about being kind to yourself.

Hang tough... .

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I am not comfortable with putting my earnings in a common account without being able to make joint decisions about the money going out of that account.

That's simple (rather than easy). Open an account in your name, and put the money you earn into it, and control how it is spent.

Not easy, because you will are likely to get all sorts of pushback over it. But you do have the power to do this, and I really don't see what he can do to stop it, if you make that choice.

In my discussions with him and others, he has floated the possibility of us 'working together' on the financial situation. The reality is that we don't 'work together' on common problems - I have tried, but he never seems to get the concept of together.

Again, simple--not easy. If you've been burned too many times, and don't believe it will work, refuse to participate. He can't "make" you work together, especially if "work together" actually means you contribute your earnings, and he does what he wants with the money.

The financial hardship is very real, and the best way through is to be realistic and make hard choices. I'm guessing uBPDh doesn't have this capacity, and doesn't acknowledge that he has a problem, or that you can do a better job at it than he can.

That's also real. And it sucks.   But pretending that you can magically do something different and make it go away is just going to make things worse.

[formflier]

You obviously know money is triggering.  

Be wise:  Money is a tool.  :)evalue it as much as you can (to you).  Then focus on finding a solution that works, vice one that you want (your perfect solution).

Example:  I would never in a million years advise anyone to manage money the way that I am at the moment.  I hate it.  But... .it works and money hasn't been argued over in months in my family.

(last money argument was when I refused to give wife cash to pay for Wed. night church supper... .that was a few months ago.  But really... .money was a prop in that argument.  I would not have held a door for her, handed her something she was demanding because of the way she was talking.  It was about her manner... .not the money.)

We do have a family account where mortgage and light bill gets paid.  My wife has access... .but rarely uses that money.  I provide 100%.

My wife has account where she puts all her work money and I put all of my Navy retirement (monthly check).  She buys food and clothes the kids with that money.  I have NO visibility and I never ask about that account... .NEVER.  There is food to eat and my kids aren't neekid (yep... still a southerner... )

I have an account that I provide 100% of the money to.  I use it as I see fit.  My wife no longer asks about it... .I NEVER discuss that account with her.

I don't like this situation... .but it does work.  Bigger fish to fry at the moment.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Figuring out a household budget is a useful tool. I recommend you start and plan it on your own, no discussions with uBPDh. This is an exercise in common sense, accounting, and hard choices. I think you can make this plan on your own... .but we can help you on ideas if you need it.

Discussing and/or agreeing on this (common sense and accounting) matter with your uBPDh is a different problem. It is a communications problem. A tough one because uBPDh has a mental illness... .and I'm guessing that money issues are triggering to him, making it worse. I'm sure he feels ashamed of losing his job, whether he acknowledges it or not. All this extra stress on him will probably bubble out in other directions, with worse behavior targeted at you and others.  

This part isn't about facts, reality, or common sense. This is about his feelings. And yes, his feelings are still real.

Lets plan what parts of the solution you can implement on your own... .what parts you need uBPDh's agreement on, and how to best communicate with him and negotiate with him. I'm guessing a mix of boundary enforcement, and tools like S.E.T... .along with generally trying to be as validating as you can.

[empath]

That's simple (rather than easy). Open an account in your name, and put the money you earn into it, and control how it is spent.

Not easy, because you will are likely to get all sorts of pushback over it. But you do have the power to do this, and I really don't see what he can do to stop it, if you make that choice.

My earnings are deposited into a separate account that he doesn't have access to. I started that a little over a year ago, and sure enough, I still get pushback on it. That is a matter of being responsible for me, so it is still there. It hasn't been too much of a problem because I haven't had any earnings to put in it, except from seasonal retail work.

Budgeting: This is a tricky area for us because we can 'talk' about the budget, but he can't really commit to one, or hasn't historically. He currently manages the bill paying because I was done trying to rescue him from his choices, and we are not current on our bills right now. When he asked to talk about it a little over a month ago, I figured something was amiss; he had maxed out the credit cards and pawned everything that he could think of. He wanted me to fix it. I've asked him to come up with the data for our discretionary spending habits, but so far, he hasn't come back with that information. His 'hope' was that I would be able to pick up the slack for his lack of income, but when he asked about my earning potential, I was clear that it wasn't a lot right now. I do have a list of the bills and the amounts owed on the credit cards, though; that's a positive step.

I'm fairly knowledgeable about finances and accounting, so that's not a problem for me. Money is an area that triggers him (spending is a soothing activity for him); there are many parts where he feels shame, including some childhood experiences, FOO, and being seen by others as irresponsible - finances and job wise. I'm well acquainted with those areas, and often have to use some serious tools to be able to even have a simple discussion.

FF, it's not what I would hope for either, and certainly it's not what is in the 'normal' range for marriages. It's what works in our situation. In my case, we have involvement of church people who don't quite understand the challenges (who think that working together would be good).

I'm concerned about going into the winter season which is worse for the depression with the added stress and him not having health insurance to cover his therapy appointments.

This is not an unusual situation, like I said; we've been down this road before. It's not a smooth road, and it may be a bit more bumpy now.

[babyducks]

I tried to discuss budgeting once with my partner.  Never tried it again.   I never saw the emotional immaturity that is a hallmark of this disorder roar to the surface like it did during that discussion.

Money was all magic numbers to her, based on her emotional state of the day.

I'm completely with Grey Kitty on this on.  Plan the budget on your own.   Be fair.  Be reasonable.    Be kind.  And then present it as pretty much a done deal.

I would also suggest being careful with the wording you use.  It's household money, not his/yours.   It's shared or common expenses. 

I ended up creating a household account with both our names on it.  That took care of day to day spending.    I very carefully and very deliberately locked her out of my personal accounts, especially my savings.    When her Bipolar wasn't under control she was capable of draining the account in hours. 

I expected dsyregulation over the money and tried to schedule them for times that worked better for me.

[Grey Kitty]

Budgeting: This is a tricky area for us because we can 'talk' about the budget, but he can't really commit to one, or hasn't historically. He currently manages the bill paying because I was done trying to rescue him from his choices, and we are not current on our bills right now. When he asked to talk about it a little over a month ago, I figured something was amiss; he had maxed out the credit cards and pawned everything that he could think of. He wanted me to fix it. I've asked him to come up with the data for our discretionary spending habits, but so far, he hasn't come back with that information. His 'hope' was that I would be able to pick up the slack for his lack of income, but when he asked about my earning potential, I was clear that it wasn't a lot right now. I do have a list of the bills and the amounts owed on the credit cards, though; that's a positive step.

I'm a hardcore pragmatist on this kind of stuff.

Talking to him about a budget and getting him to agree to it doesn't work--he will agree, then he will max out credit cards and pawn stuff anyways.

Don't have these conversations expecting them to change any of this. Instead expect it to "work" for a few days/weeks/months, and them for him to lose it and do something irresponsible.

Getting him to provide data on discretionary spending isn't going to solve anything... .I'm pretty sure you know that he is just out of control sometimes... .and suspect that he knows it as well, but feels so ashamed that he finds ways to avoid acknowledging it, even to himself.

Work out what ways you need his cooperation to make things better... .and what things you can do on your own whether he cooperates or not. Let us help you work through the tools on the areas you need help.

Are there more things you can actively DO that will protect your household budget from his (presumably irresponsible, at least sometimes) spending?

Since he will max out credit cards, can you stop him from carrying them, or get him off of joint ones. Or leave them maxed out, making minimum payments (yes the fees and interest suck... .but at least he can't put more debt onto them!)

[formflier]

Here comes FF the pragmatist.

Offer a suggestion of how to fix it... .one more time.

Give him the data on how to direct deposit his income into your account and send him a list of the items you will pay out of that.  On that list put down a number of what he will have access to on the date he will have access.

If he goes for it... .great.

If not... press on.

Thoughts?  Very important to be non-judgmental... .offer a solution.  Phrase it as "With all that you have on your shoulders these days, I could handle these responsibilities for you."

FF

[formflier]

Money was all magic numbers to her, based on her emotional state of the day.

I once sat down and showed the financial math to my wife of what she was proposing in a previous budget.  She said "it makes no difference what way we do it... ."  Yet one way was thousands of dollars different.

I tried to convince her it mattered... .didn't go well.

Today I would have the conversation only to try and divine what she wants to happen and perhaps how "strongly" she feels.  I have no interest in convincing her of seeing budgeting "my way"...

Note:  I'm used to running line item budgets of over $30 million across several departments... .annual audits... .etc etc.  Financial chaos at home took a while to "get used to".

FF

[empath]

Give him the data on how to direct deposit his income into your account and send him a list of the items you will pay out of that.  On that list put down a number of what he will have access to on the date he will have access.

My thoughts are that restricting one spouse from marital assets can be seen as financially abusive. A few years ago, we were required to go through Financial Peace University due to concerns raised about the amount of debt that we have. I made it clear to my husband that I was really just showing up to be supportive of him - none of the things that were taught were new to me or to what I had been trying to encourage in our finances. I had mentioned that the only way that I could figure out to prevent the difficulties that he was having was to block his access to the joint account, and that would have been considered abusive by many people. So, I hadn't taken those steps. This was before any discussions of abuse within our family happened.

In our current situation, it is a narrow line that I walk because I'm calling out his abusive behaviors; I don't want to 'do it back'.

[formflier]

It is his choice... .give him the data and the choice.

He can ask for extra... .if it is there you can make a mutual decision.

It is NOT abusive to restrict him from an empty account.

FF

[empath]

It would be abusive to restrict him from funds, if he is earning those funds. (it's one of the questions that is sometimes on DV intake forms)

[Grey Kitty]

There are some subtle points about abusive behavior which you are missing here.

First, intention does matter, not just the actual behavior. Silent treatment IS verbal/emotional abuse, and one of the worst forms of it, I might add. Removing yourself from a circular argument isn't abuse. The action (refusing to talk) can be exactly the same.

Abuse is (ultimately) about controlling the other person, trying to get them to do what you want them to do... .or trying to stop them from doing what you don't want them to do.

Second, refusing to accept abusive behavior does NOT constitute abuse, even if the person who wants to continue abusive behavior says it is (and probably honestly believes it is too!) ... .and engaging on that matter would be engaging in a circular argument, and likely subjecting yourself to more abuse.

My thoughts are that restricting one spouse from marital assets can be seen as financially abusive. [... .] the only way that I could figure out to prevent the difficulties that he was having was to block his access to the joint account, and that would have been considered abusive by many people. So, I hadn't taken those steps. This was before any discussions of abuse within our family happened.

In our current situation, it is a narrow line that I walk because I'm calling out his abusive behaviors; I don't want to 'do it back'.

So what is your intention? I believe you are trying to protect yourself and your household. You are trying to make sure that money is there for critical things that both of you need (housing, food, transportation, etc.)

It would be abusive to restrict him from funds, if he is earning those funds. (it's one of the questions that is sometimes on DV intake forms)

If you and he have shared finances with uneven income, I don't think this is 100% black and white.

If he's that irresponsible, I can see limiting his access to spending money from the joint account. He will probably kick and scream a bit, but I expect he will (ultimately) be grateful that the money is managed better than he is capable of.

Also, remember he has a choice where to deposit the money he earns. If he doesn't like what happens in the joint account, you have no way of stopping him from putting it into an account that you have no control over.

[empath]

Abuse is (ultimately) about controlling the other person, trying to get them to do what you want them to do... .or trying to stop them from doing what you don't want them to do.

That's the thing. I am trying to stop him from doing something that I don't want him to do - leaving no money for things we need. I can only control my actions, not anyone else's. There is a difference between withdrawing from an unproductive or toxic interaction/relationship and attempting to impose consequences 'on' another person.

[Grey Kitty]

That's the thing. I am trying to stop him from doing something that I don't want him to do - leaving no money for things we need. I can only control my actions, not anyone else's. There is a difference between withdrawing from an unproductive or toxic interaction/relationship and attempting to impose consequences 'on' another person.

You say this like it is a black and white situation.

It was until the two of you opened a joint account, put shared money into it, and started living off of the money in the joint account together. Now you've got a much more complicated and messy situation with a bunch of grey in the middle. Especially because you and he have made different amounts of money at different times, and it is shifting again, adding stress, and muddying the waters further.

If you CAN keep him from spending money on frivolous things that would mean you cannot pay for necessities, even if it involves taking his control of the money away from him, I don't believe it qualifies as abuse.

I would say that him blowing money frivolously with the result of you (and possibly him!) going hungry, or getting evicted or foreclosed on is much more abusive than you preventing him from having access to do exactly that.

[empath]

Well, it is a bit less complicated at least emotionally since I've established a separate account that he doesn't have access to. It is difficult because I am legally liable for finances as well.

[formflier]

Empath,

I'm in a very logical place this morning... .likely overly so.      Hopefully you can be extra kind to yourself.

If a person is given choices... .and they choose of their own free will (even if they claim to be coerced), is that choice abusive?

Is there a chance that you are confusing one party "feeling abused" and "actual abuse"?

Just because a question is on an intake form, doesn't mean that a person answering yes to the question... .means there is abuse.

In this case I imagine it would look like this.  Your hubby goes to shelter and says and writes down "My wife won't let me have the money I make, she is financially abusing me"

They look into it and perhaps you have the budget and one or two paragraph email where you proposed (not demanded) this as a possible solution.

You have a copy of the paper that he signed to switch his direct deposit.

You show them the amounts that were agreed on that have been put in his account for his control each month. 

You can show bills that are now paid on time since you are doing the finances and compare that to before the switch.

Do you really think after all that... .that a reasonable person would label you as a financial abuser

Because at the end of the day... .he can sign a form and send the money wherever he wants.

FF

[empath]

Do you really think after all that... .that a reasonable person would label you as a financial abuser

Since I have talked with shelters about it, yes, I do think they would label that abuse, regardless of the pragmatism of the actions. People choose to be abused a good amount of the time; that is something that shelters deal with as well.

[formflier]

 
Do you think they would label you as the abuser?

FF

[empath]

Yes, they would label me as the abuser if I were to control his financial access.

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, they would label me as the abuser if I were to control his financial access.

Do YOU think that it would be clear-cut abuse?

[Sunfl0wer]

Yes, they would label me as the abuser if I were to control his financial access.

Humm, what about abuse via neglectful?

My mom has schizophrenia.  
She is not able to manage finances, she would spend stuff, with no awareness of consequences to her housing, food, etc.
She has a legal guardian.

In my book
NOT ok for the guardian to allow my mom access to drain all her fund until she is homeless.
If I took the guardian to court for being neglectful via elder abuse/neglect laws, I am sure I have a leg to stand on in court.

Sure, my mom has already been declared incompetent.
Before she got the label... .
Would it be "neglectful"...
Aka abuse via neglect for her to be allowed to cause herself harm by spending her money until she cannot pay for her needs?

Ya know, I am a fan of labels, in certain circumstances, but man... .
I'm having trouble following this thought process without labeling it a cognitive distortion.  Not meaning to be rude, just literally having trouble with the black/white and greyness and how to see it from all angles.  Interesting tho.

Imo, the opposite of what you are saying is abuse... .
Seems to me the term "abuse" is somewhat subjective no?

Would you feel it more ok to let my mom make herself homeless?
(Even if she was not declared incompetent)
Cause, that REALLY limits her real life options and hampers/controls everyones options in then helping her acquire housing.

My mom gets a monthly allowance.  She spends this on junk, cigarettes, soda, etc then whines she doesn't have money for stuff.  Maybe we are abusing her?  

How are you defining abuse?
When we limit someone's access?
Is it abuse that they will not allow me to rent a beach front condo with my income?
Just seriously trying to figure out how it works, is it subjective to you, or what?
I'd for sure say that it could be abuse if you show up to pay bills, yet nothing is there!  Is that abusive to you?  To him?  Wasn't YOUR access to the money then limited?  

Impulsive spending IS a form of self harm/(self abuse.)
Not sure I would feel ok enabling that in another.

[formflier]

Yes, they would label me as the abuser if I were to control his financial access.

And how would you control his financial access?  His signature on direct deposit slip is his control... .his choice.

You can request all day long... .but you can never control it.

He may allow you control for a while... .even years.

He may tell them he was coerced... .threatened

But I honestly don't see anyway that you "control" his finances in any way that approaches abuse.

No effort to argue... .I just don't see it... .   What am I missing?

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

(Sorry for poppin in late, chiming in, didn't really take in entirety... .too late to erase, working on being mindful, sorry empath)

[empath]

My mom has schizophrenia.  
She is not able to manage finances, she would spend stuff, with no awareness of consequences to her housing, food, etc.
She has a legal guardian.

When a person is mentally incapacitated, then it is appropriate to help them manage their lives.

And how would you control his financial access?  His signature on direct deposit slip is his control... .his choice.

The choice to be controlled does not lessen the fact that the person is controlled and has less of a voice in the decision-making. Abuse is one person having power and control over another person.

Big picture idea: people have a 'right' to make their own decisions, including really bad ones that significantly impact others around them. Trying to limit that right reduces a person's 'personhood'.


In the 'way things are now', my husband is at least aware of the financial issues and feels the stress acutely. He is taking some responsibility for fixing the mishandling of finances - he had to sell some plasma this week to keep things afloat and to buy food. (I wasn't going to rescue him - he asked me first) He also said he had an interview yesterday for a job.

For my part, I am stepping back from the rescuer role; my husband has had other people with spiritual authority tell him that he needs to reduce his debts. We also have church leadership that is invested in our lives - he can't really hide it.

[formflier]

  Abuse is one person having power and control over another person.
 

Hey... .I think we fundamentally define abuse differently.

I voluntarily signed a paper that sends a good chunk of my monthly money into my wife's account.  I have no visibility.  She buys food and clothes from that... and... .whatever else. 

While my wife has been abusive, I don't consider my choice to let her control that amount of money abusive.

My .02 cents worth.

Big picture:

While I disagree on definitions.

I see the strategy of not rescuing.  I like it. 

How long has this strategy been in place? 

FF

[empath]

I think we agree that ideal would be a couple working mutually working together with respect for each other's needs and desires. The reality is that doesn't happen in our marriages, so we have to figure it out a bit more creatively. Your wife didn't require you to deposit the money into her account, and I'm assuming that there is an adequate amount to provide. 

The strategy of not rescuing has been in place for over a year - it's hard to say exactly when it started officially because there are so many different areas that it applies to.

[formflier]

She didn't require it...   I just did it.

I have a couple sources of monthly money.  I signed one to go to her account.  She didn't fight it... .but I didn't ask.

She was brought up "co mingling" everything again... .BMC was aghast that I wouldn't "share" and "believe the best"... .I simply said no to all requests.

Our case is a bit different because I have been sole provider for a long time.  Wife is recently back in job market (few years)

FF

[empath]

She was brought up "co mingling" everything again... .BMC was aghast that I wouldn't "share" and "believe the best"... .I simply said no to all requests.

Of course. If they think they are dealing with 'normal' marriage issues, they would think this is all not normal.

'Our' pastor (the one at husband's church) told me that he thinks it would be good for us to work together. I think I said the working together doesn't happen in our marriage - that is one of the core issues. It takes two.