"Are you angry with me?"

[MiloSpiral]

Hey bpdfamily, it's been a while.

I recently reconnected with my BPD sister, and then summarily disconnected (or plan to summarily disconnect) with her again after a disastrous argument that occurred last weekend. It started with that simple title question: she asked me, "Are you angry with me?"

This was in response to my pleasant but distant demeanor towards her all weekend, and although I wasn't *actively* angry at her I was at that moment trying to figure out how to broach discussing with her that her behavior towards me six months ago, which prompted the first disconnect, was not appreciated and would not be tolerated again. So, I used her question as a way to say, "Well, I do have something to talk to you about... ." and proceeded to basically say exactly that.

I won't go into the details of her response and how incredibly hurtful and damaging it was, but suffice to say it was the same old gaslighting, thinly veiled threats, and word distortion that you may be familiar with coming from a BP. Now that it's been a week and I have safely migrated back to where I live, a two hour drive from her, I'm planning on writing her an email clearly stating the modes in which I am willing to engage with her and the fact that I will no longer be putting my feelings at risk by bringing them to her, so in short, she can consider the conversation ended.

But still, that pesky little question remains.

I've hit a point--at least for now, who knows what my resolve will look like in another six months--where I recognize that she is either unwilling or incapable of taking responsibility for her actions and how they affect other people, and I'm perfectly willing, after some amount of time, to return to a polite but distant relationship with her. However, I foresee her asking me that question again, and I have no idea how to answer it without starting an argument. I see that question as just another hook she uses to draw me down the rabbit hole, because if I say "No, I'm not" she'll needle me with "I can tell you are, why won't you just be honest with me, you're not doing yourself/me/our relationship any favors by keeping your feelings hidden, etc." I do think that it will be the truth if I say "No--" as I'm sure many of you have also experienced, there's a point where the anger just turns into apathy and a lack of respect for the BP's communication style/how they treat other people. However, I'm sure that there are others out there who have faced this question before--how have you responded to it? It feels like a trap that even if I resist falling into, she'll just do her best to push me in by badgering me until I *do* get angry--at being badgered. I want to be able to answer in a way that clearly states my boundary (in this case, my unwillingness to have the conversation) and won't invite any further discussion. What have others' experiences with this question (or similar questions) been, and how have you handled it, for better or worse, in the past?

[Peacefromwithin]

Hey bpdfamily, it's been a while.

I recently reconnected with my BPD sister, and then summarily disconnected (or plan to summarily disconnect) with her again after a disastrous argument that occurred last weekend. It started with that simple title question: she asked me, "Are you angry with me?"

Hi MiloSpiral!  

I'm not sure I can help much, but I'll share my thoughts and hopefully you'll get something out of it. The question "Are you angry with me?" just makes me shudder. It's a very childish question. My feeling is, when a pwBPD asks that, it isn't because they care that something they did or said hurt you or bothered you, but that you are going to reject them and abandon them. It's all about them.

I know it's not the same thing, but it reminds me of when my uBPD/NPD mother used to rage at me, and then afterward she'd have certain set reactions. Sometimes one of them was she'd turn into a waif and ask me to give her a hug and to kiss both checks. It was the last thing I wanted to do, but I knew I had to do it, and in a loving way despite the terror I was feeling, to make her feel better. It was always all about her feelings.

This was in response to my pleasant but distant demeanor towards her all weekend,

Again I think because of their sheer fear of abandonment and rejection, they are super careful to always check on how we are reacting around them, and then they change and manipulate accordingly to get the desired behavior from us.

and although I wasn't *actively* angry at her I was at that moment trying to figure out how to broach discussing with her that her behavior towards me six months ago, which prompted the first disconnect, was not appreciated and would not be tolerated again. So, I used her question as a way to say, "Well, I do have something to talk to you about... ." and proceeded to basically say exactly that.

Although I don't have BPD, I do have fleas. So perhaps this will help you. My husband has a harsh tone of voice sometimes. He doesn't mean it, it's just that he's a super intense kinda guy. I used to take his tone personally, because it often sounded parental and reminded me too much of my mother. He has since stopped it, and lately when he wants to broach something with me, he does it in a casual, friendly, non-chalant type of tone of voice (I have to thank him for this now that I think of it... .). I have to say, it puts me so much less on the defense when he talks to me this way. So, my advice to you is to try that out next time you say that you do have something to talk to her about.

I won't go into the details of her response and how incredibly hurtful and damaging it was, but suffice to say it was the same old gaslighting, thinly veiled threats, and word distortion that you may be familiar with coming from a BP. Now that it's been a week and I have safely migrated back to where I live, a two hour drive from her, I'm planning on writing her an email clearly stating the modes in which I am willing to engage with her and the fact that I will no longer be putting my feelings at risk by bringing them to her, so in short, she can consider the conversation ended.

Yeah she likely did that because she felt you were insulting her, "making her feel badly about herself", attacking her, etc etc. She was likely incredibly delusional about it all, so that's why she turned to her BPD defense mechanism of gaslighting, threats, word distortion (ugh I hate that one, it gives me a headache), etc.

I'd be careful about the email, because she may misread your tone and intention. My uBPD sister used to do that all the time. I'd say something completely innocent on facebook, and she'd go utterly off the wall crazy accusing me of god knows what.

I'm not sure I would actually tell her how you are willing to engage with her. This will make her angry and she'll either smear you to the rest of the family, or make you the problem. I would keep this to myself. She doesn't have to know. I also wouldn't tell her that you aren't willing to put your feelings at risk by bringing them up to her. She will not comprehend what you mean, and she will likely use this to fuel the fire of her defensive mechanisms and more BPD behavior. Again, keep this part to yourself. Set boundaries and limits but do not tell her what they are. Does that make sense? Remember you are not dealing with a rational person.

But still, that pesky little question remains.

As it should. It's not a question a healthy adult asks. It's a question a person with a very low emotional maturity who only cares about their own feelings ask. Someone on here--I think it was Turk--taught me that those with BPD may feel guilt, but they do not feel remorse. I think that type of question is an example of that.

I've hit a point--at least for now, who knows what my resolve will look like in another six months--where I recognize that she is either unwilling or incapable of taking responsibility for her actions and how they affect other people,

I don't think pwBPD are able to do this. Be careful of your expectations. We cannot expect the pwBPD to change, unless they are in active therapy working on their BPD. In my experience, this is a core BPD behavior. Everything is blamed on everyone else. They never look within. They can't. Not in a psychopathic way, but because at their core looking within would make them just utterly crumble.

and I'm perfectly willing, after some amount of time, to return to a polite but distant relationship with her.

This is probably your best bet. Low contact. But just know that she may act up and act out if she feels that you are being "distant" with her. It's taken me my entire life to figure out that my uBPD mother can feel my anxiety and terror around her, and that although part of her loves the power it gives her over me, there's a part of her that seriously cannot face that her child is terrified of her and is anxious around her. And that makes her anxious around me, which brings out all her BPD/NPD behaviors. If I am warm, calm, and loving around her, (but not a doormat) she actually calms down and I can tell feels loved. I've only been able to do this once, but it was really interesting to experience and gain insight from.

However, I foresee her asking me that question again, and I have no idea how to answer it without starting an argument.

I wish I knew what to suggest. Maybe you could say something nonchalantly like you're not angry at her, but you were curious about something, and keep it in that friendly, light, casual tone of voice? I'm not sure. Hopefully others will have suggestions for you. The key I think is for her to not think you're angry at her, because she can't handle that, and that's why she turns it into an argument. If she feels badly about herself, she'll blame you for it. Does that make sense? That's what they do. "It's your fault I feel bad, because you're angry at me"--something like that.

I see that question as just another hook she uses to draw me down the rabbit hole, because if I say "No, I'm not" she'll needle me with "I can tell you are, why won't you just be honest with me, you're not doing yourself/me/our relationship any favors by keeping your feelings hidden, etc."

Do not fall for this! Don't take her bait! She doesn't care what your feelings are. She just wants to know what you're angry about because it's making her feel badly about herself, but she'll twist it around and throw it right back into your face.

It feels like a trap that even if I resist falling into, she'll just do her best to push me in by badgering me until I *do* get angry--at being badgered

.
Exactly. You have a good clear understanding of her behavior and thinking.

I want to be able to answer in a way that clearly states my boundary (in this case, my unwillingness to have the conversation) and won't invite any further discussion. What have others' experiences with this question (or similar questions) been, and how have you handled it, for better or worse, in the past?

My T taught me to just nonchalantly in a friendly way just say something like, "Let's not talk about this now" and to keep repeating it over and over. If she keeps pushing and pushing, walk away. Say it in a way that you want to spend time with her, and enjoy each other's company. I forgot exactly how T worded it, but it made so much sense. It took my parents/sibling off of the defense and off of trying to control the situation to make themselves feel better.

I hope this helps.

[MiloSpiral]

Hello Peacefromwithin! Thanks for your reply!

Your thoughtful and thorough response makes a lot of sense to me, especially this part:

The question "Are you angry with me?" just makes me shudder. It's a very childish question. My feeling is, when a pwBPD asks that, it isn't because they care that something they did or said hurt you or bothered you, but that you are going to reject them and abandon them. It's all about them.

Because I've lived apart from my sister for a while now, and keep minimal contact with her, it's easy for me to forget that questions like these are traps. I am slowly coming to terms with the fact that I won't have a typical relationship with my sister, and that's a loss I'm grieving. So, thanks for reminding me that I am dealing with a historically irrational person; it will make it easier to not make mistakes like this one in the future, born out of hope that "maybe this time it will be different." Like you said, I can't expect her to change unless she decides to. (And, I should mention, she's not ~officially~ diagnosed with BPD, but therapists have suggested it and all the signs point to it.) So, she still has a lot of work to do, and she might never do it. That's hard to swallow (again, part of the grieving process) but I have to do it.

I'd be careful about the email, because she may misread your tone and intention.

I can understand your concerns about this. Everything you say about what she could (and likely will) do is valid. I should give some more context: just before I left the house last Sunday, she asked if she could talk to me for a minute, which is something she does just before you leave somewhere so that you either have to let her have the last word and be on time for whatever you're going to, or risk being late so that you can respond to her. I said, "No, I have to go. I'm expecting a call and I'm already going to be late. I can't have this conversation with you." She got angry and said, "Well, when you're ready to have the conversation, can you let me know?" I said, "Frankly, based on the way our conversation went yesterday, I have no interest in having a conversation with you about my feelings or anything to do with that. I'm too hurt." She persisted, "Well, when you're not so raw anymore, can we have a conversation about it?" I said, "Yes, *when* I'm not too raw, I'll let you know." Meaning, Never, never, no way, not in a million years, no, no, no, I will not be continuing this conversation with you. She finally stopped and I left, and spent the next week figuring out how to tell her, "This conversation is over." In my and my family's experience, she eventually behaves better when you make it very clear that you're no longer going to have the conversation, and then you stick to it, instead of just not saying anything. She'll come after you for not saying anything and won't let up, so you have to say "I'm leaving this conversation" or "I'm hanging up" so that you can reference that very clearly in your own mind when she tries to drag you back in. Whenever those worms of doubt whisper, "Well, it's true, you never *were* clear with her that you were done talking about it," I can respond in my own mind, "No, actually, I did. It doesn't matter if she regards it or not; I know I did and that's all that matters." Does that make sense?

Also, I've found writing to be the most useful mode of communication, because it allows me to say exactly what I want to say, with enough time to edit and reword, and it allows her time to sit with it (however much time she chooses to take--even if it's none at all). I find that she's much better at twisting my words in a verbal conversation because it's so ethereal, and it's easier for me to lose focus on my goal. There have also been many instances where I've flown off the handle and screamed at her, which is then of course used against me in the next conversation and which I *do* feel bad for; email doesn't allow me to do that because I do have enough control over my emotions to step back and take as much time as I need to compose an appropriate response.

I should be clear that I don't really care how she responds; I just want to state the boundary in no uncertain terms and then immediately stop answering. When I have done that in the past, I have felt better and much more empowered than by simply cutting off contact without saying anything. It makes it easier, too, to enforce it if I set it once. I'm also very lucky that I have a very supportive family (we have a pretty united front when it comes to dealing with my sister), so I'm not really concerned about what she says to them.

As for telling her in which modes of communication I'm willing to have with her... .you may be right about that. I'll have to think about it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

My T taught me to just nonchalantly in a friendly way just say something like, "Let's not talk about this now" and to keep repeating it over and over. If she keeps pushing and pushing, walk away. Say it in a way that you want to spend time with her, and enjoy each other's company.

Your T gave you good advice. I think this is a good goal to have--clearly I am not going to get the apology or recognition I want, so there's no use continuing to push for it.

Thanks again for all of your thoughts and suggestions. You've given me a lot to think about.  

[Peacefromwithin]

Hello Peacefromwithin! Thanks for your reply!

Your thoughtful and thorough response makes a lot of sense to me, especially this part:

Because I've lived apart from my sister for a while now, and keep minimal contact with her, it's easy for me to forget that questions like these are traps. I am slowly coming to terms with the fact that I won't have a typical relationship with my sister, and that's a loss I'm grieving. So, thanks for reminding me that I am dealing with a historically irrational person; it will make it easier to not make mistakes like this one in the future, born out of hope that "maybe this time it will be different." Like you said, I can't expect her to change unless she decides to. (And, I should mention, she's not ~officially~ diagnosed with BPD, but therapists have suggested it and all the signs point to it.) So, she still has a lot of work to do, and she might never do it. That's hard to swallow (again, part of the grieving process) but I have to do it.

I'm glad I was able to help in some way. :-) Years ago, I used to "forget" what they're like. I'd go visit them expecting everything to be normal, and I'd be crying in the car on the way home. I wish I knew mindfulness then. I would've just gone with the flow of their behavior, in the moment.

It definitely is a loss to grieve. T talked to that with me a while ago. That even though I'm healthier going VLC, it's still a big loss when you lose family, even if I'm healthier for it in the long run. We have to find healthy things and people to fill the void. Or just use the time to find yourself.

My parents and siblings weren't officially diagnosed with BPD/NPD either, but it was strongly suggested by mental health professionals... .They're not allowed to make an official diagnosis unless they're under their care. But dots can be connected so to speak... .Plus everything I've read about BPD and NPD fit the bill. Go with your gut. What's that saying, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck... .

What's helped me regarding my family members, is acceptance. It's taken a long time to reach this point. I now do not expect them to act healthy. I just sort of expect the worst, prepare for the worst, and go with it. I know my parents are beyond help at this point and are very sick, and I just hope in my heart they find peace somewhere in the afterlife. My sister--she tried therapy but the therapist stopped the appointment mid-session. So I am going to assume there's not much hope for her. (I'm going to have to watch very, very carefully over the next few decades of not to take any bait from her because she knows I've been in therapy. I made the mistake years ago of bringing up BPD to her.) But there's always hope that your sister gets miserable enough about her life that she tries therapy. If she's willing to be honest about herself, there's hope. We can't change others, but we can change how we react around them, so there's that, too, for yourself.  We have to let go of wanting them to be different.

I can understand your concerns about this. Everything you say about what she could (and likely will) do is valid. I should give some more context: just before I left the house last Sunday, she asked if she could talk to me for a minute, which is something she does just before you leave somewhere so that you either have to let her have the last word and be on time for whatever you're going to, or risk being late so that you can respond to her. I said, "No, I have to go. I'm expecting a call and I'm already going to be late. I can't have this conversation with you." She got angry and said, "Well, when you're ready to have the conversation, can you let me know?"

First of all, that is great you have a lot of awareness of the games she is playing. I can completely understand that they make you angry, that's very valid. It must be very frustrating to be leaving with your hand on the doorknob, only for her to want to talk to you. That's very controlling and rude of her. Her fear of abandonment and rejection makes her do that and it's not fair to you. I'm wondering if next time this happens, if you change your tone to something like, "hey I'd love to chat with you about this, perhaps when we have more time? I wish I could stay but I've got this call for work I have to take". That might diffuse her feelings of abandonment and rejection if you use a friendly, soft, kind tone. They don't call this walking on eggshells for nothing!--  People with BPD are hyper sensitive to tones of voices and all that, and they take everything personally. Try this and see how it works. Stay in the moment and observe how she responds. Is she using your soft tone of voice to manipulate you further, seeing it as a weakness? Or is the soft tone of voice calming and soothing her?

I said, "Frankly, based on the way our conversation went yesterday, I have no interest in having a conversation with you about my feelings or anything to do with that. I'm too hurt." She persisted, "Well, when you're not so raw anymore, can we have a conversation about it?"

A healthy individual would've commented empathetically that you were feeling hurt. However, the pwBPD cannot have a conversation about someone else's feelings in an empathetic manner. Here she is blaming you for having "raw" feelings--I am assuming she said it in a smug way, yes? She knows she cannot deal with your feelings, or she doesn't understand them, but she projects that onto you and blames you for having "raw" feelings. Does that make sense?

I said, "Yes, *when* I'm not too raw, I'll let you know." Meaning, Never, never, no way, not in a million years, no, no, no, I will not be continuing this conversation with you. She finally stopped and I left, and spent the next week figuring out how to tell her, "This conversation is over."

I wish I had advice as to how to talk to the pwBPD about your own feelings, but I just don't see how to. Unless you try that soft, casual, friendly kind of way my T suggests. Something like, "Hey, sis, I was wondering why you didn't call us and the kids to come for Father's Day? We would've loved to see you." Sometimes that way of approaching them diffuses their anger and defenses, because you're approaching them in a "loving" way. It's hard to explain. Just make sure not to do it in a "weak" way, because she'll pounce on that.

I think the pwBPD sometimes mirrors feelings, but I could be wrong. I'm just thinking about my own mother. If I was acting like a typical teenaged girl--cranky or PMS or something--she would take it personal. She'd go off in a huge rage that I wasn't "respectful" toward her, etc. etc. I found that if I was able to just smile and answer her the way she wanted to be answered, it diffused her rage. I'm just thinking that your sister is very hyperviligant to your feelings and attitude toward her, and that that is putting her on the defense. Approach her with love and kindness, while keeping boundaries and limits, and see if that works. What do you think?

It's sort of like this: think of her as a mentally ill person, and how you would treat a mentally ill person. If you were tired after them talking your ear off for 2 hours, and you needed to set a boundary, you'd approach them with kid gloves. Smile and say calmly and softly, "I'm going to go now, I need to get home and get some sleep." If they talk over you, or ignore you, I'd say it again and get up, smile, and say "Ok, it was really lovely seeing you. I'm going to go now and get some sleep. Goodbye! And then I'd lean over and give a warm a hug and kiss and leave.

I'm not saying this will be easy, because it's a fine line between treating someone like they're mentally ill and then having them feel that we are patronizing them. Maybe practice beforehand. I think the key is to be kind and loving but at the same time don't let that kindness and love be seen by the pwBPD as a weakness. Keep your boundaries. I was able to act this way the last time I saw my parents, and it worked. They were calm and at ease around me, because they felt loved. Usually I am very anxious around them, or I'm cold or curt in the way I speak. They still didn't "listen" when I said I had to go, but I think they're just not capable. So I just repeated it, hugged and kissed them, and left. No deep conversations with them about "feelings", either. I'm not sure I'd suggest having those sort of conversations with your sister. I'd keep things light and surface level. If we talk feelings, they will twist everything around and use it as ammunition in the future or when talking to other family members about us.

In my and my family's experience, she eventually behaves better when you make it very clear that you're no longer going to have the conversation, and then you stick to it, instead of just not saying anything. She'll come after you for not saying anything and won't let up, so you have to say "I'm leaving this conversation" or "I'm hanging up" so that you can reference that very clearly in your own mind when she tries to drag you back in. Whenever those worms of doubt whisper, "Well, it's true, you never *were* clear with her that you were done talking about it," I can respond in my own mind, "No, actually, I did. It doesn't matter if she regards it or not; I know I did and that's all that matters." Does that make sense?

That's very typical. They're like 2 year olds who test, test, and test again your boundaries. I don't know if it's conscious or subconscious but it certainly is annoying. I don't think not saying anything works with them. It makes them scared. I think silence is a form of rejection/abandonment, that you're ignoring them. That's actually a sensitivity "flea" I have with my husband. He will sometimes be silent if he's doing something else, and he's not good at stopping what he's doing to answer me. I have to either go into the room he's in, calmly ask him for his attention for a moment, or ask him if he heard me. He's not one to say "ok, got it!" I think it's a sensitivity to me to not be answered, because it triggers childhood memories of how traumatically I was ignored by uBPD/NPD mom and uNPD dad. Does that help? Ignoring = rejection = abandoment = not being loved. That's what your sister feels, and she gets angry at you for making her feel that way. That's why she lashes out on you.

So, perhaps instead of being silent, and instead of answering firmly, try that soft-but-clear-and-direct-method of, "Hey, sis! I'd love to chat more about this, but it's getting a bit heavy and I'd rather we talk about something else. Have you seen ____ movie?" Or something like that. Keep things light and friendly. Make sure your facial expressions, body language, tone of voice are all light, friendly, casual, etc., and still keep boundaries/limits. If she takes your new friendly way as a weakness, just add on to it, like this: "Hey, I don't get to see that often, sis, how about we table the deep stuff for another time... .I'd love to see your latest vacation photos!" How do you think that'd go?

I think the pwBPD on some level knows they are sick, and so they take our body language, tone of voice, lack of eye contact, anxiety, etc. as a way of us saying, "You are crazy and sick. I don't love you. You make me ill. I want to get as far away from you as humanly possible." Yes even with children, unfortunately... .Anyway I think they are so completely full of self-hate, self-loathing, and self-anger, that they project it onto others. It's like an abused dog who in order to protect itself, walks around growling and on alert wherever it goes and with whomever it meets, hyper-sensitive to everyone and everything, yet it is all entirely fear-based. Once it's loved, it can let its guard down. But loving a pwBPD must be done with your own self-care and boundaries/limits that they're not aware of.

Here's an example: my uNPD dad will talk your ear off, 90mph, about whatever it is he wants to brag and boast about in that moment. It used to make me crazy-anxious and I could barely make eye contact with him. He'd talk over me, interrupt me, talk right in my face, etc etc. I love my dad but this sort of thing day in and day out for hours at a time just wrecked me. Now, however, I will only stay on the phone with him for about 10 minutes (I admit I can't always abide by that limit, due to guilt). I will smile, so the smile comes out in my voice. I'll listen, sound interested, make him feel good, and I will actually interrupt HIM if I need to change the subject (if it gets too much) or if I have to go. I'm not graceful yet with this, as sometimes I find myself saying "Yes you told me this already" after hearing the same story 80 times. And, no, unfortunately this isn't just an age thing with him, as he's always been like this, although age is making it worse. But my point is, I'm trying to learn a way to be with him that makes him feel good and loved, while at the same time practicing boundaries, limits, and self-care for myself.

Also, I've found writing to be the most useful mode of communication, because it allows me to say exactly what I want to say, with enough time to edit and reword, and it allows her time to sit with it (however much time she chooses to take--even if it's none at all). I find that she's much better at twisting my words in a verbal conversation because it's so ethereal, and it's easier for me to lose focus on my goal. There have also been many instances where I've flown off the handle and screamed at her, which is then of course used against me in the next conversation and which I *do* feel bad for; email doesn't allow me to do that because I do have enough control over my emotions to step back and take as much time as I need to compose an appropriate response.

I am exactly the same as you with regarding to writing. I think I'm so used to keeping my feelings and thoughts in, that they just flow much more naturally when writing or typing. However, just know that our words--whether spoken or written--are often misunderstood and misperceived by the person with BPD. This is why we often just want to bang our heads against the wall thinking "How on earth did she think that from what I wrote?"  You may have communicated your thoughts beautifully, but know that the pwBPD may be hearing and reading something completely different. It's like they see through glasses that have years of gunk on them, and so they cannot see clearly. They're so used to seeing things and hearing things from this warped, unclear perception, that it's really hard to help them see the truth. They have to do work to see the truth for themselves... .

I do get what you mean about her being better with the written word. I find that with one of my siblings, sometimes it feels like we are actually having a normal back and forth conversation over email, whereas in person, the second we make eye contact, it's as if we are back to our childhood and all the nonsense starts up again. I also think that in person, the pwBPD is paying so much attention to tone of voice, eye contact or lack thereof, body language, facial expressions, that they're not really focusing clearly on what you're saying. With email, they can focus more on the written word, but know that'll still be twisted around. But I do agree, my experience has been that I actually feel like I'm getting somewhere over email. But T doesn't even want me to email them, because I guess email is a "written record" and they can easily forward it to other people. I felt safe emailing them about the weather, movies, books, holidays and nothing else. But even then, they'd use that as a way to push themselves in, test my boundaries, or see if I'd take their bait. So be careful.

I've also lost my cool in person because of the frustration I feel of how conversations just go in circles. And yes then they'd use my screaming to throw that back into face and make me the crazy one. I think when I see them next, I'm going to try to practice mindfulness techniques to check in with myself to see how I'm feeling. (Sometimes, too, I wonder if they make me crazy on purpose and want me to lose my cool so they can throw it back into my face.) To be Continued in a 2nd reply/running out of characters...

[Peacefromwithin]

email doesn't allow me to do that because I do have enough control over my emotions to step back and take as much time as I need to compose an appropriate response.

There might be a way in person to say something like, "Hey, sis! I hear what you're saying! (maybe even repeat it back?) That's a good question. Mind if I take some time to think it over?" You do run the risk of her getting angry, if she wants what she wants when she wants it (an answer immediately), but hopefully using that casual, friendly, I understand how you feel sort of way of talking to her, will diffuse some of her defensive angry reaction. What do you think?

I should be clear that I don't really care how she responds; I just want to state the boundary in no uncertain terms and then immediately stop answering. When I have done that in the past, I have felt better and much more empowered than by simply cutting off contact without saying anything. It makes it easier, too, to enforce it if I set it once. I'm also very lucky that I have a very supportive family (we have a pretty united front when it comes to dealing with my sister), so I'm not really concerned about what she says to them.

That's great that you are not affected by her response, because sometimes the pwBPD will respond in a way to evoke a certain reaction or response out of you. Ever see the movie Gone Girl? She did all that crazy stuff just to see if her husband loved her, without a care to how her actions affected other people. It's kind of like that. It's mental illness. You do need to do what makes you feel empowered, because these people want to drag us down to their level. Cutting off contact without saying anything will hurt the pwBPD, bring out all feelings of abandonment, rejection, not being loved, etc., and make everything worse for you because she'll project it all back to you, because of anger at you for making her feel like that.

You are extremely lucky that you have a supportive family. That is helpful for you, that you don't have to worry about smear campaigns, then. But then I'm going to assume that your sister feels even more like the victim here, if she feels that "you are all against her". It's like a child being the only one not invited to a party. That's likely how she feels. Is she married or has kids? What's things like with her relationship with them? Does she act jealous if they seem to get along better with you and the family? Unfortunately, we have to realize she's thinking from a very emotionally immature level, due to whatever fears of abandonment, rejection, and not being loved happened in childhood that she was never able to outgrow. The pwBPD is emotionally stunted.

For example, one of my siblings with uBPD was bullied badly growing up, and she's super sensitive about her own feelings, although extremely cruel and bordering on psychopathic in regards to other people's feelings. As a result, she became a bully herself, in the workplace, with strangers, with neighbors, and with whomever she feels she can get away with. But as her sister, I've seen both extremes--I've seen the bully in her come out (toward me at times) and I've seen the crushing puddle of a human being she can also be. It's bizarre to witness, but I just keep trying to witness in a mindful sense, without judgement, just factual. So I know the truth--that the "bully" is just a complete and utter facade--a way for her to act all powerful and hide her true cowardly puddle of a self. One of my T's used to say that it's like the line from The Wizard of Oz: "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". The Wizard of Oz made himself seem and be heard as this powerful giant being, but the truth was he was a tiny shell of a man when he was revealed.

Also, it's very important we let go of ever expecting rational behavior from irrational people. One of my T's taught me that, and it's one of the most important things I ever heard.

Your T gave you good advice. I think this is a good goal to have--clearly I am not going to get the apology or recognition I want, so there's no use continuing to push for it.

Yes I am extremely fortunate in that although I've had my share of T's who made things worse, I have had excellent T's as well. It's tiring, a lot of time, and a lot of money going to therapy, but it's what has helped me most. I had to stop trying to understand what I was doing wrong, that made these people treat me the way they were. I didn't start to make real headway in therapy until a T directly, firmly, and clearly looked me in the eyes and told me that my family was mentally ill. I was finally able to stop blaming myself for their behavior. I can change myself and my reactions, but I cannot change them, no matter how much egg-shell walking I do or how much people-pleasing I do. That stuff was harming me, not helping.

If I could sue my family for all my therapy bills over the years, I'd do it in a heartbeat!   But seriously, therapy when dealing with this population is very helpful. You might want to consider it. I'd caution you, however, to just make sure the therapist/psychologist you'd see has knowledge or experience with BPD. He/she can then give you helpful tools for how to communicate with your sister at not at the expense of your own well-being. People with BPD are suffering, and they unfortunately subconsciously want us to suffer if they think we are causing their suffering. It all goes back to their childhood fears of rejection, abandonment and not being loved... .

Thanks again for all of your thoughts and suggestions. You've given me a lot to think about.  

I'm really happy that my experience can help others! I do tend to be a bit verbose when writing/talking, so I apologize about that. Feel free to PM me if I can answer any questions or clarify something better.

[MiloSpiral]

Hello again Peacefromwithin! Thanks for your detailed reply--you and I have similar qualities, I think. I can be quite verbose too, and from your comments about "people-pleasing" it sounds like you have taken on the role of "peace-keeper" more than once in your life. That's something I relate to very much!

There's always hope that your sister gets miserable enough about her life that she tries therapy. If she's willing to be honest about herself, there's hope. We can't change others, but we can change how we react around them, so there's that, too, for yourself.  We have to let go of wanting them to be different.

Fortunately, my sister has been to therapy a couple times in her life--the last time she went, besides when she was hospitalized at the beginning of this year, was last summer. She allowed her therapist to mediate discussions between her and my parents, but stopped going without notice after a while. My parents think it might've been because she was being asked to look at and analyze her own behavior... .they tried it once before with a completely separate therapist, with the same result. Although she claims that she is going to therapy right now, my mom doesn't believe her. Based on what my parents say and the conversations I had with her six months ago, she is in pretty deep denial about needing psychological treatment, although she has gotten a bit better about some of her other issues, such as disordered eating.

Also, the story about your sister's therapist stopping mid-session... .how odd! I obviously have no context for why that happened, but I've never heard of that before. I wonder what happened.

I hope my sister will eventually go back to therapy and really commit to some introspection. Until then, however, I can't expect her to be different, as you said. Especially because that only leads to disappointment and hurt for me. I have to remove myself from the outcome.

You are extremely lucky that you have a supportive family. That is helpful for you, that you don't have to worry about smear campaigns, then. But then I'm going to assume that your sister feels even more like the victim here, if she feels that "you are all against her". It's like a child being the only one not invited to a party. That's likely how she feels. Is she married or has kids? What's things like with her relationship with them? Does she act jealous if they seem to get along better with you and the family?

Yes, that is almost certainly how my sister feels--and she will use it against you if you try to talk to her in any way that isn't enabling. For example, in my conversation with her that weekend, she told me "The way you talked to me reminds me of how Mom talks to Dad," which was of course a diversion tactic.

It does pain me that my sister feels this way. And, while I'm grateful that it's due to a united front of placing boundaries, I do recognize that my family could probably benefit from speaking to her "in an easy manner," as DBT teaches and as you mentioned. Out of frustration, it is really hard to find empathy when you are so sick of being mistreated. But I think, for now, I need to reframe it almost as if I'm speaking to an unreasonable coworker, especially since we're going to have a pretty distant relationship for the foreseeable future. "I understand you want to talk about your feelings right now, sis, but unfortunately I'm just not in a place to receive them, or in a place to talk about my own. This is what's best for me right now; I hope you can respect that, and do what you need to take care of yourself." Obviously a few degrees more personal than a true coworker, but it follows the pattern of "you requested something of me --> I can't do that thing --> so sorry, hope you're able to find help elsewhere." I've done this before (through text), and while it then resulted in a barrage of subsequent messages telling me she couldn't do what she needed, she needed my help, why wasn't I taking her seriously, if I couldn't help her I should have just told her that from the beginning (not sure what she interpreted my message as, if not that, but okay), etc. etc. etc. It was nervewracking to pick up my phone and see all those messages there, but I held fast and didn't respond.

Unfortunately, the more I think about it, the more I remember examples of her using my soft and easy manner--which is my natural state--to further manipulate me. I think that's why I've really hardened to her and have a hard time accessing that empathy anymore. It doesn't feel great, to be honest, but it's a defensive strategy--maladaptive or no.

Your question about my sister's current marital status brings up another interesting detail. Right now, besides her family, she has no one--no friends, no boyfriend, no coworkers, nothing. I've always known her to cycle through friends fairly quickly--having short relationships with them that, while not necessarily emotionally intense, are very "concentrated" in the sense that when she's made a new friend she really likes, that's always the person she references, calls up, brings to family things, etc. She's always been like that, and she's not good at staying in touch. So she has either not spoken to many of her friends in a long time, or she has pushed away the close ones through her erratic and unfair behavior towards them, or by cutting them off herself. As a result, her family is really all she has left, and she's slowly pushing us away too. It's especially hard because seeing as she has no one else, she then zeroes all of her attention in on us--depending on us absolutely for support (any kind) while also blaming us for the situation she is in (especially when we refuse her request for support). It's also worth mentioning that I am younger than her by a *significant* amount--seven years--and have, for most of my life, been her FP (favorite person). I am the one that is put on the pedestal and relied on or called on most for emotional suport/put in between her and my parents. It has been this way my whole life, although the emotional support used to be a lot more reciprocal, when she was healthier. Being in between her and my parents, though--that's almost never changed. If my sister ever gave me advice and I happened to mention to my mom about it, my mom would often become frustrated, especially if it was advice to have a conversation with my parents about expectations I wanted changed. If I mentioned advice my mom gave me to my sister, she would warn me that my mom often gave bad advice, and to take it with a grain of salt (which is not, per se, true). There is certainly fault on both sides, and it's taken me many years to slowly realize that it's unfair to me because, even though I'm the "littlest," I'm a human being with opinions of my own, and I don't want to be put in the middle anymore! I recognize that my parents mostly did it out of wanting to protect me from my sister's manipulation, but it didn't really work that well--mostly because I didn't believe I was being manipulated. And, it has instilled in me a deep distrust of my own instincts, which I'm starting to learn are actually quite good, and a slightly less deep distrust of other people.

That was a bit of an emotional dump--but it's important, to me at least. So if you read it fully, thanks.

A healthy individual would've commented empathetically that you were feeling hurt. However, the pwBPD cannot have a conversation about someone else's feelings in an empathetic manner. Here she is blaming you for having "raw" feelings--I am assuming she said it in a smug way, yes? She knows she cannot deal with your feelings, or she doesn't understand them, but she projects that onto you and blames you for having "raw" feelings. Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes perfect sense, and I think you are right! Although, her tone was not so much "smug" as it was angry at being told no. I've never really known my sister to be a smug person. It's how I know that she's not actually interested in hurting people's feelings--at the same time, she cannot take responsibility for it when she does. Instead, she criticizes the way you talk, the place or time you chose to bring it up with her (I was accused of "bringing this up out of the blue," even though that was due to needing *six months* to work through the trauma enough to build courage to confront her). I've told her, "I'm not here to workshop how I talk to you. I will do my best in conversations to not say hurtful, mean-spirited things to you, and I'll try to keep my tone as neutral as I possibly can. But I'm not here to workshop. I can do that with my therapist." She retaliated, "I'm not trying to be your therapist; I'm trying to be your sister." I thought to myself, If that's how you go about being a sister, then that's *not* a sisterly relationship I'm interested in having. But I didn't say it--why, I don't know. My T asked me if I had said it; she said it was a good line. This is a new T I'm seeing, by the way--she's wonderful, although I don't know if she has experience dealing with BPs or NPs. From how she talks about "people like my sister," as she says, it seems like she does.

Smile and say calmly and softly, "I'm going to go now, I need to get home and get some sleep." If they talk over you, or ignore you, I'd say it again and get up, smile, and say "Ok, it was really lovely seeing you. I'm going to go now and get some sleep. Goodbye! And then I'd lean over and give a warm a hug and kiss and leave.

So much of what you wrote brought tears to my eyes (good ones, don't worry!) including this part. Because, this is where I hope I can get to (or get back to) with my sister one day. When I talked to a friend about the situation the other day, I said to her, "I love my sister. I mean I really love my sister." And I had to take a moment and just sit with that for a second, because to be perfectly honest with you, Peacefromwithin, it's been a long, long time since I've truly felt that way. I've always known, intellectually, that it was true, but it was hard for me to access. For the first time in a very long time, I actually felt it when I said it. I think I've been avoiding feeling it because it would mean facing how truly heartbroken I am about the current state of affairs.

Sometimes that way of approaching them diffuses their anger and defenses, because you're approaching them in a "loving" way. It's hard to explain. Just make sure not to do it in a "weak" way, because she'll pounce on that... .  Approach her with love and kindness, while keeping boundaries and limits, and see if that works. What do you think?

Perhaps the way I was doing it before seemed weak to her, and that's why she would manipulate me. Or perhaps it was because she knew, consciously or no, that it was an in because I hadn't set very strong boundaries in the past. Either way, I do see what you're saying. I want so badly to be able to do that; I think one day I can get to that point, and I think right now I can at least practice. I think oftentimes saying it out loud reinforces it in our own minds, and makes it easier when we finally have to confront the person.

For example, one of my siblings with uBPD was bullied badly growing up, and she's super sensitive about her own feelings, although extremely cruel and bordering on psychopathic in regards to other people's feelings... .But as her sister, I've seen both extremes--I've seen the bully in her come out (toward me at times) and I've seen the crushing puddle of a human being she can also be. It's bizarre to witness, but I just keep trying to witness in a mindful sense, without judgement, just factual.

This is another part that pulled at my heartstrings. Your poor sister in her young life! Of course that’s no excuse for her behavior now, but I relate to the “bizarre” Jekyll and Hyde phenomenon you described. It is emotional whiplash as a witness if you get too invested—you don’t know whether to run or help—so you’re right, the best thing to do is try to be mindful. This is something I really think I need to practice, not only in my relationship with my sister but in my own life as well. I have struggled with major depression and anxiety, and I occasionally dissociate—I think that last thing, especially, is due to a lack of practice following my instincts. So I think that practicing mindful behavior now, even before my next interaction with my sister, will help me exude confidence and maintain an easy and calm manner. Thank you for reminding me of this!

By the way, I did end up sending an email to my sister a few days ago, which a good friend who is better than me at setting up boundaries in a firm but *kind* way, helped me to write. It basically said, "Hey sis! I'm going to take a break from all text-based communication with you, as I don't think we can have a productive conversation about our feelings right now. I'm very sure that this is the best for me, and I hope you will respect that. I'll see you soon and until then I wish you all the best! Love, me." As far as I know she hasn't answered, although I wouldn't know as I set up an email filter to send all incoming messages from her to a specific folder which doesn't notify me, and I can go through it on my own time for any relevant information. (Like I said above, oftentimes setting boundaries invites a barrage of text-based abuse... .)

Thanks again for your response. It has really helped me to talk to someone who deals with uBP siblings, especially because a lot of the resources I see about BP relatives have to do with parents. 

[Peacefromwithin]

Hello again Peacefromwithin! Thanks for your detailed reply--you and I have similar qualities, I think. I can be quite verbose too, and from your comments about "people-pleasing" it sounds like you have taken on the role of "peace-keeper" more than once in your life. That's something I relate to very much!

Someone else out there is verbose and as people-pleasing as I am?    

Fortunately, my sister has been to therapy a couple times in her life--the last time she went, besides when she was hospitalized at the beginning of this year, was last summer. She allowed her therapist to mediate discussions between her and my parents, but stopped going without notice after a while. My parents think it might've been because she was being asked to look at and analyze her own behavior... .they tried it once before with a completely separate therapist, with the same result. Although she claims that she is going to therapy right now, my mom doesn't believe her. Based on what my parents say and the conversations I had with her six months ago, she is in pretty deep denial about needing psychological treatment, although she has gotten a bit better about some of her other issues, such as disordered eating.

Well there's always hope if she's been in therapy. My uBPD/NPDm wouldn't step foot near a therapist's office to work on herself if the choice was between that and jumping into the fire pits of hell. She'd take the later. It is nearly impossible I think for the pwBPD to analyze their own behavior. They cannot look within because I think there's a part of them that knows how painful/shameful/horrible it will be. They don't want to look at their inner turmoil. They'd rather just project it out to everyone else.  

Also, the story about your sister's therapist stopping mid-session... .how odd! I obviously have no context for why that happened, but I've never heard of that before. I wonder what happened.

What happened was, the therapist made a comment (which my sister told me) and so I knew that the therapist had figured out that she was dealing with a very personality disordered person. I am also assuming that she my sister go from puddle of a victim/mess/waif to the most arrogant, ___y, snarky, evil, cruel, my-sh*t-don't-stink person in the span of an 1/8 of a second, figured out what she was dealing with, stood up and said what she said, and that was that. I was able to connect the dots pretty fast by what my sister told me she told the therapist, and by what my sister told me the therapist told her.

I hope my sister will eventually go back to therapy and really commit to some introspection. Until then, however, I can't expect her to be different, as you said. Especially because that only leads to disappointment and hurt for me. I have to remove myself from the outcome.

I hope your sister will go back to T too and work on herself. One thing my family members with uBPD and uNPD lack, is not even a seed of self-introspection or humility. Just so broken it's as if they are soulless.

Yes, that is almost certainly how my sister feels--and she will use it against you if you try to talk to her in any way that isn't enabling. For example, in my conversation with her that weekend, she told me "The way you talked to me reminds me of how Mom talks to Dad," which was of course a diversion tactic.

Hmm I don't see that as a diversion tactic but she's your sister, so maybe it's because I'm looking through it as if a non-BPD/NPD person would say that.

It does pain me that my sister feels this way. And, while I'm grateful that it's due to a united front of placing boundaries, I do recognize that my family could probably benefit from speaking to her "in an easy manner," as DBT teaches and as you mentioned.

Is DBT supposed to help the non BPD/NPD person as well as the person with BPD/NPD? I think the thing is to talk in an easy going manner but not to do it in a manipulative way or in a placating way.

Out of frustration, it is really hard to find empathy when you are so sick of being mistreated.

Trust me, I get it... .I just try to remind myself "this is a sick person" and not let it get to me. It takes practice.

But I think, for now, I need to reframe it almost as if I'm speaking to an unreasonable coworker, especially since we're going to have a pretty distant relationship for the foreseeable future. "I understand you want to talk about your feelings right now, sis, but unfortunately I'm just not in a place to receive them, or in a place to talk about my own. This is what's best for me right now; I hope you can respect that, and do what you need to take care of yourself."

I'm not sure this is a good method or not. Hopefully others will chime in. My first thought is that the pwBPD is unable to understand anyone else's feelings but their own, so don't waste your breath only to get disappointed when she doesn't care about your feelings, or gets angry that this isn't about her feelings.
I'd make what you say less business-like, and more light-hearted and casual but repeat it if she sees it as a weakness and leave if she still steamrolls over you.

My mother *hated* it whenever I spoke to her in the tiniest bit "business-like", or "assertive", etc. when I was trying to protect myself. She would rage about my talking to her in a disrespectful tone of voice, etc. It was AWFUL and led to some of her worst rages.  

Obviously a few degrees more personal than a true coworker, but it follows the pattern of "you requested something of me --> I can't do that thing --> so sorry, hope you're able to find help elsewhere." I've done this before (through text), and while it then resulted in a barrage of subsequent messages telling me she couldn't do what she needed, she needed my help, why wasn't I taking her seriously, if I couldn't help her I should have just told her that from the beginning (not sure what she interpreted my message as, if not that, but okay), etc. etc. etc. It was nervewracking to pick up my phone and see all those messages there, but I held fast and didn't respond.

Again... .I'm sorry... .something just is not sitting right with your wording and tone. I'm hoping your therapist can help here. It almost is coming across as too cold, too business-like, too much like you're saying you're sorry to blow her off and not caring. How about something like: "Hi [sister's name], gee I'd really like to help you out. I'm sorry but I won't be able to. I hope everything works out."

Unfortunately, the more I think about it, the more I remember examples of her using my soft and easy manner--which is my natural state--to further manipulate me. I think that's why I've really hardened to her and have a hard time accessing that empathy anymore. It doesn't feel great, to be honest, but it's a defensive strategy--maladaptive or no.

I can definitely see that! That's exactly how it is with my mother and siblings. But I think we have to find a happy, healthy medium between being soft and easy versus being hard, cold, and unempathetic. Being hard, cold and unempathetic is only going to trigger her secondary emotion of anger because of the primary emotion underneath every pwBPD/NPD's anger: FEAR OF ABANDONMENT; FEAR OF NOT BEING LOVED

Your question about my sister's current marital status brings up another interesting detail. Right now, besides her family, she has no one--no friends, no boyfriend, no coworkers, nothing.

That's sad. Know that there is a place deep inside of her that sees this, doesn't understand why or how to fix it, makes her full of envy, self-rage and self-hate and further fuels her fear of not being loved & fear of abandonment.

I've always known her to cycle through friends fairly quickly--having short relationships with them that, while not necessarily emotionally intense, are very "concentrated" in the sense that when she's made a new friend she really likes, that's always the person she references, calls up, brings to family things, etc. She's always been like that, and she's not good at staying in touch.

I don't think pwBPD/NPD have stable relationships for the most part. I'm sure they wish they did.

So she has either not spoken to many of her friends in a long time, or she has pushed away the close ones through her erratic and unfair behavior towards them, or by cutting them off herself. As a result, her family is really all she has left, and she's slowly pushing us away too.

Sometimes I wonder if the pwBPD/NPD are so full of self hate and fear of abandonment, that this happens because of (1)self fulfilling prophecy, and (2) I'll-reject-and-abandon-you-before-you-reject-and-abandon-me. What do you think?

It's especially hard because seeing as she has no one else, she then zeroes all of her attention in on us--depending on us absolutely for support (any kind) while also blaming us for the situation she is in (especially when we refuse her request for support). It's also worth mentioning that I am younger than her by a *significant* amount--seven years--and have, for most of my life, been her FP (favorite person). I am the one that is put on the pedestal and relied on or called on most for emotional suport/put in between her and my parents. It has been this way my whole life, although the emotional support used to be a lot more reciprocal, when she was healthier. Being in between her and my parents, though--that's almost never changed. If my sister ever gave me advice and I happened to mention to my mom about it, my mom would often become frustrated, especially if it was advice to have a conversation with my parents about expectations I wanted changed. If I mentioned advice my mom gave me to my sister, she would warn me that my mom often gave bad advice, and to take it with a grain of salt (which is not, per se, true). There is certainly fault on both sides, and it's taken me many years to slowly realize that it's unfair to me because, even though I'm the "littlest," I'm a human being with opinions of my own, and I don't want to be put in the middle anymore! I recognize that my parents mostly did it out of wanting to protect me from my sister's manipulation, but it didn't really work that well--mostly because I didn't believe I was being manipulated. And, it has instilled in me a deep distrust of my own instincts, which I'm starting to learn are actually quite good, and a slightly less deep distrust of other people.

Hmm I'm not sure what to say with this dynamic but hopefully your T will help give you more insight and solutions?

That was a bit of an emotional dump--but it's important, to me at least. So if you read it fully, thanks.

Not at all. :-)

Yes, that makes perfect sense, and I think you are right! Although, her tone was not so much "smug" as it was angry at being told no. I've never really known my sister to be a smug person. It's how I know that she's not actually interested in hurting people's feelings--at the same time, she cannot take responsibility for it when she does. Instead, she criticizes the way you talk, the place or time you chose to bring it up with her (I was accused of "bringing this up out of the blue," even though that was due to needing *six months* to work through the trauma enough to build courage to confront her).

The pwBPD/NPD cannot face taking responsibility for their part, so they project it onto you or blame you instead of taking the blame. They lack humility and push down any and all self-awareness because it's way too painful to face--just my opinion, I could be wrong here.

I've told her, "I'm not here to workshop how I talk to you. I will do my best in conversations to not say hurtful, mean-spirited things to you, and I'll try to keep my tone as neutral as I possibly can. But I'm not here to workshop. I can do that with my therapist." She retaliated, "I'm not trying to be your therapist; I'm trying to be your sister." I thought to myself, If that's how you go about being a sister, then that's *not* a sisterly relationship I'm interested in having. But I didn't say it--why, I don't know. My T asked me if I had said it; she said it was a good line. This is a new T I'm seeing, by the way--she's wonderful, although I don't know if she has experience dealing with BPs or NPs. From how she talks about "people like my sister," as she says, it seems like she does.

Actually, I kinda like that your sister said "I'm not trying to be your therapist, I'm trying to be your sister". And I agree with your T, that would've been an excellent time for your to calmly say "let's both talk about what our ideas are of what a sister is like. Let her have the floor no matter how crazy sounding she is. Smile and listen. When she's done, you calmly speak your peace. She may get some new insight, if she's open enough, to what a healthy sister-sister relationship looks like.

Running out of characters, to be continued. :-)

[Peacefromwithin]

Continued below:

So much of what you wrote brought tears to my eyes (good ones, don't worry!) including this part. Because, this is where I hope I can get to (or get back to) with my sister one day. When I talked to a friend about the situation the other day, I said to her, "I love my sister. I mean I really love my sister." And I had to take a moment and just sit with that for a second, because to be perfectly honest with you, Peacefromwithin, it's been a long, long time since I've truly felt that way. I've always known, intellectually, that it was true, but it was hard for me to access. For the first time in a very long time, I actually felt it when I said it. I think I've been avoiding feeling it because it would mean facing how truly heartbroken I am about the current state of affairs.

I hope you and your sister will be able to have some sort of relationship. I don't know if I'll ever be able to have a relationship with my siblings. But if I keep practicing what T teaches me, maybe I'll be able to as long as I continue to not take her bait, set boundaries, etc. I'm just unsure right now if I point out her BPD-like behavior in the moment, or if I just let it go and don't react. I doubt we'll ever be close, but maybe we can have some semblance of a relationship. I hope the same will be with you and your sister.

Perhaps the way I was doing it before seemed weak to her, and that's why she would manipulate me. Or perhaps it was because she knew, consciously or no, that it was an in because I hadn't set very strong boundaries in the past. Either way, I do see what you're saying. I want so badly to be able to do that; I think one day I can get to that point, and I think right now I can at least practice. I think oftentimes saying it out loud reinforces it in our own minds, and makes it easier when we finally have to confront the person.

I could have written this myself. I don't think my sisters take me seriously when I try to be assertive and strong. Hmm maybe that's why T taught me other methods of responding to them.

This is another part that pulled at my heartstrings. Your poor sister in her young life! Of course that’s no excuse for her behavior now, but I relate to the “bizarre” Jekyll and Hyde phenomenon you described. It is emotional whiplash as a witness if you get too invested—you don’t know whether to run or help—so you’re right, the best thing to do is try to be mindful. This is something I really think I need to practice, not only in my relationship with my sister but in my own life as well. I have struggled with major depression and anxiety, and I occasionally dissociate—I think that last thing, especially, is due to a lack of practice following my instincts. So I think that practicing mindful behavior now, even before my next interaction with my sister, will help me exude confidence and maintain an easy and calm manner. Thank you for reminding me of this!

I don't feel sorry for her. I was bullied, too. She went from a crying puddle of a victim, to my mother showering her with constant praise or how wonderful she was, etc etc (Golden Child) and then she became an arrogant, snarky, snobby, judgemental, know-it-all, I'm-better-than-everyone, stuck up, whiny, screaming, tyrant of a ___. I have no empathy for someone like that. Being bullied made me a strong survivor who treats others in a humane matter as much as possible. I would have more respect for her if she was bullied, overcame it, and helped other bullied children. Instead, she turned into a bully.

The Jeckyl and Hyde behavior from my uNPD father I am much more able to deal with, then the Jeckly and Hyde behavior from my uBPD/NPD family members. I am not sure why but I think it's because my father isn't a bully or manipulative. It's hard to explain. There's no game playing or bait to watch out for with me dad, unless my mother is making him do or say something to get way with us.

By the way, I did end up sending an email to my sister a few days ago, which a good friend who is better than me at setting up boundaries in a firm but *kind* way, helped me to write. It basically said, "Hey sis! I'm going to take a break from all text-based communication with you, as I don't think we can have a productive conversation about our feelings right now. I'm very sure that this is the best for me, and I hope you will respect that. I'll see you soon and until then I wish you all the best! Love, me." As far as I know she hasn't answered, although I wouldn't know as I set up an email filter to send all incoming messages from her to a specific folder which doesn't notify me, and I can go through it on my own time for any relevant information. (Like I said above, oftentimes setting boundaries invites a barrage of text-based abuse... .)

I would strongly encourage you to not take advice from any friends, family members, coworkers, etc. Not when dealing with a pwBPD. Only take advice from T or one of the moderators on this board. I'm sure your good friend is very skilled at writing these sorts of things when dealing with people in general and communication skills, but when dealing with the pwBPD/NPD, it's a whole other ball game entirely... .I already see a problem with what you wrote. You're expecting your sister to care about your feelings, when she is incapable of doing so. She's going to think you only care about your feelings and not hers. This email is going to make her "angry" which is really that "fear" I mentioned above. I hope that makes sense?

Thanks again for your response. It has really helped me to talk to someone who deals with uBP siblings, especially because a lot of the resources I see about BP relatives have to do with parents. 

I'm so glad it helped. 

Please be kind with yourself and go gently. Dealing with a sibling with BPD can be extremely draining. Practice good self-care. And follow your T's advice (hopefully s/he has training/experience with DBT and pwBPD.)

[MiloSpiral]

Hi Peacefromwithin,

I think I should explain a little bit more about my sister's manipulation style--conscious or no.

My sister plays everyone in the family off of each other. "The way you just talked to me reminds me of how Mom talked to Dad" was in response to me telling her "Hey, six months ago you did something that I really didn't find cool. It made me feel x, y, and z. I just need you to know that in order for us to move forward." (I now understand that the way I said it, while reasonable to a non-BP, would not work for a BP.) My tone, my body language, and my overall demeanor became more and more angry as the conversation went on, because she wasn't listening to what I was saying and projected a lot of her own insecurities ("This conversation isn't all about your feelings" onto me.

I get that the conversation was doomed from the start. But please understand: my sister has been talking about a "problem" between my parents for ages now. Whatever is going on between my parents may or may not be there, but she uses it to divert attention from herself when you try to talk to her about how her behavior affected you. It's like a weird double-mirror projection: she projects how she views my parents onto me. She does the same thing with my other sister, and she complains to me about my other sister and my parents if I let her.

Furthermore, she uses our "sisterly" relationship to FOG me. "As my sister, you should do x y and z for me" (in other words, fill these impossible demands that will change once you start to try to fill them.) "As my sister, you should support me the same way *I* supported *you* when *you* needed it." To a non-BP and coming from a non-BP, it might sound reasonable. But it's another way she tries to control. She does it to everyone in the immediate family.

I'm having a really hard time with what you're suggesting I do, which is show some amount of empathy, because I have no spoons left for empathy and I feel so used for my compassion and my very long fuse and patience. I am so afraid that if I show empathy it will be taken advantage of. Because, even when you say "That sounds really frustrating!" to try and empathize with her when she's venting, she'll say, "It's not just frustrating; it's... ." and then she'll list a bunch of words to better describe it. Some might say this is her articulating how she actually feels, maybe it is. From her tone and the context of the situation, which is usually "everything you say is wrong and the way you say it is worse", it just feels like she's once again telling me how much I suck. And, like you keep saying, I need to let go of that. I need to realize that what she's saying has nothing to do with me and everything to do with her. I need to let go of the idea that she'll ever truly appreciate what I do for her.

But I do hear what you are saying, I promise. And I am thinking about it. I am thinking about what you said about my response perhaps being too cold, although I meant it with feeling. I sometimes worry that I have adopted some of the BP ways my sister uses to gain control. Because I am so frustrated with not being empathized with, I don't feel especially motivated to empathize in return. Which is a clear signal that I need to take a break from contact with my sister, and work on letting go of this anger.

Right now, though, I'm frustrated, and tired, and isolated. My T has been on vacation for the last two weeks, and I've been dealing but I'm very ready to go back next week.

I have to think about what you said. Thank you for replying to me.

[Peacefromwithin]

Hi Milo,
I realize I don't understand about how your sister behaves. I'm just one person with a little experience but I'm no professional. ;-) I wish I knew what to suggest to help you.

Have you spent time looking at the Lessons, Tools, Videos, etc on this forum? I think that'll help you a lot. The moderators on here, who do this all as volunteers, are extremely helpful and can send you links for this site on how to find the Lessons and Tools. That will help you in how to respond to your sister.

Also some of the moderators have mentioned that Pete Walker's blog/articles is very helpful. I've read a few and I think they're a great resource for us.

I hope those tools will be of help to you in how to respond to your BPD sister. I hope your therapist will give you helpful practical tools, too.

I wish you the very best. Be kind to yourself and practice good self care. 

[Peacefromwithin]

Hi Milo,

I realize I don't understand a lot. You seem to have a much closer relationship with your sister than I had with mine. I'm just one person with a little experience but I'm no professional. ;-) I wish I knew what to suggest to help you.

Have you spent time looking at the Lessons, Tools, Survivor's guide, Videos, etc on this forum? I think that'll help you a lot. The moderators on here, who do this all as volunteers, are extremely helpful and can send you links for this site on how to find helpful links on this forum. These will help you in how to respond to your sister.

Also some of the moderators have mentioned that Pete Walker's blog/articles are very helpful. I've read a few, and I think they're an excellent resource for us.

I hope those tools will be of help to you in how to respond to your BPD sister. I hope your therapist will give you helpful practical tools, for specific instances, too.

I wish you the very best. Be kind to yourself and practice good self care.  

[MiloSpiral]

Hi Peacefromwithin,

Thanks for sticking with me. I hope you don't take my frustration in my last post personally. I think one of my own "fleas" is someone saying that the way I talked to my sister wasn't the best, because it reminds me of her... .but this is my own problem, and it's important to have constructive criticism. So, thank you for that!

You have been very helpful, and after taking some time to think about it I have to admit that you are right. (I knew that all along, of course, but I didn't like hearing it  ) I need to practice empathy. That is the only way forward to a good relationship with my sister.

I read a lot of the resources on this site when I first joined back in January, but after looking over the FOG one again after my last response to you, I realized that I'd forgotten a lot. So, I am going to reread a lot of the stuff I went over in the winter. And, I now remember that I can be angry at my sister and she can still deserve my empathy at the same time. It will be better for both of us in the long run.