to guilt or not to guilt him

[Depression = 72% of members]

So, as I read through my fourth book about BPD and how to help them, it seems to me that my goal should never be to help my husband access his guilt that he should be feeling about the ways he has hurt and continues to hurt me. It seems that the best goal is only to make boundaries, limits, and requests that are easy to understand and achievable. Like not say 'you caused my depression to worsen to the point that I wanted badly to kill myself' but rather something more like 'when you say my request is only because I have a ptsd trigger, it sounds to me like you are saying that my request is not valid because I am mentally ill, maybe we could talk about whether or not the request is valid without considering if it is a trigger of mine or not'.

It is known that a defining characteristic of BPD is that they aren't able to feel guilty about what they do, understand how their actions affect us, or genuinely apologize. Maybe improving their BPD symptoms overall in the long run will allow them to start to develop these abilities? Without the ability to mentalize (understand the feelings of others) it would be impossible for them to actually be sorry. And when we try to make them sorry it causes them to project even more onto us the shadow material of their unacknowledged guilt and thus become more hostile.

I think that if it is never good to try to help them feel guilt that this would be an important thing for me to acknowledge. It would prevent me from doing something that is counter productive to his recovery and I wouldn't be disappointed when my efforts result in his anger instead of his sincere apology. I'm working on radical acceptance and I think that for now I need to give up on my desire to be validated by him. It's difficult because when others aren't willing to acknowledge that what they did was wrong you have no security in feeling that they won't continue to do it. Thus my idea that I can only set limits, not ask for regret on his part. Limits can provide the safety without asking him to produce an emotion that he is not currently capable of.

[Kailin]

So, as I read through my fourth book about BPD and how to help them, it seems to me that my goal should never be to help my husband access his guilt that he should be feeling about the ways he has hurt and continues to hurt me. It seems that the best goal is only to make boundaries, limits, and requests that are easy to understand and achievable. Like not say 'you caused my depression to worsen to the point that I wanted badly to kill myself' but rather something more like 'when you say my request is only because I have a ptsd trigger, it sounds to me like you are saying that my request is not valid because I am mentally ill, maybe we could talk about whether or not the request is valid without considering if it is a trigger of mine or not'.

It is known that a defining characteristic of BPD is that they aren't able to feel guilty about what they do, understand how their actions affect us, or genuinely apologize. Maybe improving their BPD symptoms overall in the long run will allow them to start to develop these abilities? Without the ability to mentalize (understand the feelings of others) it would be impossible for them to actually be sorry. And when we try to make them sorry it causes them to project even more onto us the shadow material of their unacknowledged guilt and thus become more hostile.

I think that if it is never good to try to help them feel guilt that this would be an important thing for me to acknowledge. It would prevent me from doing something that is counter productive to his recovery and I wouldn't be disappointed when my efforts result in his anger instead of his sincere apology. I'm working on radical acceptance and I think that for now I need to give up on my desire to be validated by him. It's difficult because when others aren't willing to acknowledge that what they did was wrong you have no security in feeling that they won't continue to do it. Thus my idea that I can only set limits, not ask for regret on his part. Limits can provide the safety without asking him to produce an emotion that he is not currently capable of.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Radcliff]

Kailin,

What you say about letting go of the need for validation and not invoking the guilt/shame response definitely rings true for me.  I have realized that my wife will never fill my need for validation.  I need to decide if what I get from her is enough, not expect her to change.  I need to look elsewhere for validation (and I think from your other post that you're also understanding self validation, which is good).   And hitting that shame trigger never works out well in our home.

In your first paragraph, you're thinking through how to discuss things with your husband, and I think how to explain your boundaries or what you want from him.  You may or may not have good luck here.  Despite your hardest attempts to explain your needs, he may not accept them.  Be careful about letting your husband be the judge of whether your boundaries are valid. 

I found this to be helpful:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

[Tattered Heart]

I struggle a lot with the invalidation that I get from my H too. It's hurtful, but I know that until he is willing to make changes he will not be able to see me, where I"m coming from, and how to support me when I need it. He tries, but his attempts at empathizing turn into him hijacking my story or struggle.

One interesting thing about pwBPD is that it can manifest in different ways. My H feels quite a bit of guilt. But his shame overtakes his guilt which twists the guilt from  taking responsibility for actions in a healthy way (like it does for most of us) to something he has to protect from being hurt and that's what causes him to lash out.

[Kailin]

Hi Wentworth, thanks for your comments. I also enjoyed the link that you recommended. Here's a quote I appreciated: "At the same time, if we have so few independent values, or such a weak commitment to them, we will then be "undefined" to ourselves and to others and the only values that matter are those of others. The latter is common in codependent or enmeshed relationships."  Defining my boundaries to myself has had an amazing effect on my self confidence, i see better now what a toll codependency and enmeshment took on me.

[Kailin]

Hi Tattered Heart, thanks for sharing your personal experience. I'm interested in what you said about hijacking your story or struggle. How does that manifest in your case?

I see what you mean about my H also as far as feeling some guilt sometimes but how that leads to lashing out. It reminds me of my Aunts husband who was an addict/ batterer. I lived with them for a short  while. He was diagnosed maybe 20 years ago as bipolar but looking back I think he was BPD. I could see that when he felt ashamed of himself it would inevitably lead to his lashing out at his family.