Responding to first contact

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Thanks to a Protection From Abuse order, I have had no direct contact with my stbxuBPDw for the past four months. She now has after school visits from 3:30-7:30 two days a week and she gets them from 7:30am Saturday to 9:00am Sunday. All of these visits are in my house, so I have to get out. It's proving to be a difficult arrangement for many reasons, including that our D12 has many activities that don't line up with the visits, and I don't have a place to stay during her overnight visits.

To make coordinating activities easier, I suggested allowing written communication about co-parenting only, and we recently set up Talking Parents accounts. Last night I got my first contact from her. It really threw me off balance to hear from her again. Here is what she wrote:

I was wondering if I could come over next week on Monday, the 19th at 6:00am after you leave for work.
I am off for spring break from the 19th-23rd and am available to help the children get ready for school, cook breakfast for them, take them to school, pick them up, cook dinner for them, get them ready for bed, etc and to be with them at the house. I am asking to stay overnight every night during that week.
Thank you.

I feel like this is pretty unreasonable. I don't have anywhere to stay. This is especially ironic because she never did any of those things when she was living with us. I want to respond reasonably and politely, but maintain my boundaries. It would be nice if I felt like she would reciprocate my flexibility and kindness, but I seriously doubt  she would.

Here is what I'm thinking of responding with:

Would you be willing to exchange your time with the children this weekend (Saturday, the 17th) for before school from 6:00-7:30 and after school from 3:30-8:00 every day this coming week?

That's a net loss of 3.5 hours for her, and I get a full weekend with my kids, plus I can sleep in my own home during the week.

Any thoughts? Your support is much appreciated!

[fontinalis]

Thanks to a Protection From Abuse order, I have had no direct contact with my stbxuBPDw for the past four months. She now has after school visits from 3:30-7:30 two days a week and she gets them from 7:30am Saturday to 9:00am Sunday. All of these visits are in my house, so I have to get out. It's proving to be a difficult arrangement for many reasons, including that our D12 has many activities that don't line up with the visits, and I don't have a place to stay during her overnight visits.

To make coordinating activities easier, I suggested allowing written communication about co-parenting only, and we recently set up Talking Parents accounts. Last night I got my first contact from her. It really threw me off balance to hear from her again. Here is what she wrote:

I was wondering if I could come over next week on Monday, the 19th at 6:00am after you leave for work.
I am off for spring break from the 19th-23rd and am available to help the children get ready for school, cook breakfast for them, take them to school, pick them up, cook dinner for them, get them ready for bed, etc and to be with them at the house. I am asking to stay overnight every night during that week.
Thank you.

I feel like this is pretty unreasonable. I don't have anywhere to stay. This is especially ironic because she never did any of those things when she was living with us. I want to respond reasonably and politely, but maintain my boundaries. It would be nice if I felt like she would reciprocate my flexibility and kindness, but I seriously doubt  she would.

Here is what I'm thinking of responding with:

Would you be willing to exchange your time with the children this weekend (Saturday, the 17th) for before school from 6:00-7:30 and after school from 3:30-8:00 every day this coming week?

That's a net loss of 3.5 hours for her, and I get a full weekend with my kids, plus I can sleep in my own home during the week.

Any thoughts? Your support is much appreciated!

[Panda39]

Follow the court order and do not give up time with your kids. Besides being inconvenient to you (are your kids even up at 6a?) it can set a precedence. Until your divorce and custody are final you do not want to give up any time with your kids.  

Clearly she can't spend the night with the Protection order, you don't want her moving in and you move out for the week because you may never get back in.

What is really going on here... .She's testing your boundaries using your kids to do it.

In my opinion the answer is no to the 6a visit and a gigantic NO! to spending the night for a week.

Panda39

[Mutt]

Hi fontinalis,

I agree with Panda39 don’t give up time with your kids and don’t have her sleep over for a week - you may have more than a couple of nights a week to contend with.

[livednlearned]

Inch = mile  

For now at least.

The PO likely came about because there was a drastic need to reset boundaries. Probably your boundaries had become severely eroded prior to filing for the PO.

With court orders, especially in the beginning, you point back to the PO or custody order as though it is the ultimate authority, the ultimate boundary.

Otherwise you not only cede ground, you tell her that the paper boundary is something you are willing to undercut, on your own volition. She will only push harder the next time she explores the boundary, looking for a way in.

"The protective order states the schedule that we are to follow. I will be following the schedule given to us until the court orders otherwise."

The downside is that you have to stick to the schedule and endure the inconveniences, too, at least until you move things to the next step, with a custody order.

Also, whatever led to the PO is something she probably struggles to take responsibility for. This inconvenience and separation from you and the kids is a reminder of something she desperately wants to ignore, or wants forgiven.

It can set you two up for much worse boundary violations if you cede brand new ones so early in the process.

It's really common for people here to say we want our partners/exes to take responsibility, but then we struggle to assert the boundaries that would help them with that.

That's our side of the street. It's not fun, and it's not easy

[GaGrl]

Yes, what they said.

She is facing a week without a schedule, or people around her. She is probably dreading the lack of stimulation and is anticipating that feeling of abandonment that BPD brings.

I like the reminder that the court order is the decider.

You don't want to set a precedent that allows her later to say, "But you let me do XYZ last time."

[fontinalis]

Thank you everyone! My lawyer agreed that the request for overnight visits the whole week was absolutely unreasonable, but he encouraged me to offer her some more time this week in exchange for some of her time later.

My kids actually do get up at 6:00am on school days. Their spring break is coming to an end this weekend, so if my stbx did get the house the whole week, what would she be doing in there the whole time they are at school? She already has dug through my papers during one of her visits. She got upset that I bought a TV (the first we've ever owned, actually), and she asked the kids why I'm spending so much money and said she would have to talk to her lawyer about it. THAT is ironic. We spent tens of thousands of dollars on her yoga and energy healing and assorted new age stuff. It bothers her that I am finally spending money on the rest of us? This is another reason these visits in "the marital home" are so difficult.

She doesn't live there anymore because she assaulted me and was arrested. I endured years of physical and emotional abuse, and I am finally taking care of myself and my kids. We had our individual meetings with our mediator yesterday, and I felt so validated when I told the mediator that I needed the space from my wife that the PFA provided and she said "your kids probably needed that space too." She met with my stbx before me, and it was also validating that she recognized that my stbxw has mental health issues.

Anyway, back to communicating about visitation time. I ended up offering her the additional time from 6:00am to 7:30am next week only, plus an extended overnight visit from Friday after school to Sunday evening in exchange for me getting the kids for the whole weekend of April 7th & 8th. I'm not worried about not being able to get her out of the house, because the PFA grants me sole use of the house with the exception of her parenting time.

She responded that she would like do the exchange of parenting time, but that "in the interest of the children" she would like to have "our house" for the whole week of her spring break. I just replied that it is not an option to have overnight visits on weeknights, and I would like to stick to my proposal. We'll see if she can back down... .

Panda & LnL, I read some of your posts recently about finding love after BPD, and they were so encouraging to me. Over the past two months, I have developed very strong feelings for someone who has been a wonderful friend to me through this process. She has feelings for me too, and I am so excited to build a relationship with her! I need end my marriage properly first. I really hope that it won't take two years like it did with your SO, Panda! I worry about how my stbxw could make things difficult for the next 10.5 years, potentially.

Thank you all! I will keep you posted.

[ForeverDad]

You have to leave when she comes to spend time with the kids?  Clearly she's not under supervised visitation.  Doesn't she have someplace to live? Or sometimes can't she take them to a park, a restaurant or the movies?

Another thought, it is unusual for parents to share every weekend.  The typical arrangement is alternate weekends.  That way each parent get a weekend with the kids as well a a weekend off.  Yes, there are variations, such as two weekends for one parent (weekends 2 & 4) and the other gets the rest of them for the month (weekends 1, 3 & an occasional 5).

This is probably a temp order but once the court addresses the long term, make sure they get the location fix and the alternate weekends fix.

[Radcliff]

fontinalis,

It's been a while, so I wanted to stop by and say "hello" and wish you well.  You sound like you are in a much better place than a few weeks ago.  Are you feeling better?  Are you enjoying the benefits of a peaceful household?  It's exciting to hear about the potential new romance.  There's lots to do to end the current marriage properly, as you say, get ready for a new one, and start a new one right, but it is tremendously exciting, I am sure, to see that something better is possible.  I am happy for you!

WW

[livednlearned]

Over the past two months, I have developed very strong feelings for someone who has been a wonderful friend to me through this process. She has feelings for me too, and I am so excited to build a relationship with her! I need end my marriage properly first.

You deserve to be happy and find someone who treats you well 

I met my current SO after a 2 year separation from n/BPDx. SO had only been separated from his uBPD x for 6 months.

People here cautioned me to put a hold on things mostly because it was too soon for SO.

I didn't listen 

Being in crisis can draw codependent people toward you because the lure of fixing and rescuing will feel intoxicating to them. Plus, the absence of BPD traits can make someone codependent seem downright wonderful.

As a recovering codependent, I do believe we are lovely people  and I also have eyes wide open about what issues codependence brings to a relationship.

With my SO, I limited how much I discussed legal or n/BPDx drama, and was very clear when discussing that part of my life that I had a team of advisors who were expert in the kind of support I needed.

Codependent types don't tend to be people with great boundaries, and I wanted a healthy relationship from the get go.

You can do it, and it takes a lot of work, especially if you want to start off on the right foot. It's so much easier to get it right at the beginning than realize a year in how the crisis defined your relationship and shaped the roles you fell into together.

If you do move forward with the relationship, make sure you have a therapist in your back pocket 

For a lot of us, our instincts and intuition got dulled in our family of origins. Having a skilled and neutral onlooker guide you through known traps is practically essential, to protect you from legacy behaviors that won't serve you well going forward.

And yes, it can work out. I love SO and am so glad we moved slowly and cautiously forward, despite the caveats.

Feeling emotionally close and safe with someone you love is priceless.

[fontinalis]

Hello all,

I already regret starting any contact at all back up. She did eventually back down on her request for having the kids in the house overnight during this week, but clearly she doesn't understand why she is in this situation, and she's showing signs that she is going to make the divorce difficult. We did eventually agree to an equal exchange of time, so she gets to spend some extra time with them this week, and I get them for a couple of weekends in April that are important for me and the kids.

I'm not good at maintaining boundaries, and I'm sure she knows that. It is a problem deep set in my FOO, and I need to work on it, especially as we head into mediation next week. I'm a pathological nice guy and overly worried about being misunderstood by others. It doesn't help that her mental health issues are the elephant in the court room.

I feel very good about our mediator. I know there's a real possibility that mediation will fail due to her unreasonable demands and delusions, so I definitely need to work with my therapist on learning to maintain my boundaries.

She just sent me a message on Talking Parents asking when my family is having my birthday party... .I don't think that's an appropriate use of the app. We are only supposed to communicate about the kids. Why does she want to know anyway? It's none of her business. It's my life now, and yes, I am in a much better place without her. I would be in an even better place if she would just leave! But it's time to take some more responsibility and big steps to take care of myself and my kids.

Oof, I hate how she can still throw me so off balance!

[ForeverDad]

An advantage of that court ordered email is that you don't have to reply immediately if not urgent.  You can take some time, ponder various replies, hey, even consult us here for our hard-won collective wisdom.  One way a pwBPD can overwhelm us is by demanding an immediate response on his or her terms.  Likely it was already couched in entitled terms making you feel guilty if you say No or don't agree to share information.

In most states I believe only the children's birthdays are issues the court deals with.  The parents' birthdays are generally not on the holiday/exception list.  (Your county ought to have a 'standard' list.  Beware that it may include many celebrations you and your ex never observed.  When you get a more permanent order try to get that long list thinned down to something approximating your historical observances.)  So if the kids are with you on any such events of yours then it is not a custody or parenting issue.  Now, how to say it without triggering her... .

[Panda39]

She just sent me a message on Talking Parents asking when my family is having my birthday party... .I don't think that's an appropriate use of the app. We are only supposed to communicate about the kids... .It's none of her business.

Not about the kids, no response required.

I'm not good at maintaining boundaries... .

I feel very good about our mediator. I know there's a real possibility that mediation will fail due to her unreasonable demands and delusions, so I definitely need to work with my therapist on learning to maintain my boundaries.

Mediation could fail also because you are unable to maintain your boundaries.  Is a lawyer attending mediation with you?  What are your goals in mediation?  What are your boundaries?  Where are you willing to compromise and how much?  You do understand that not everything has to be solved in Mediation.  You could agree to some things but not others, or you might come to full agreement, or  no agreement.  But for the sake of your kids don't agree to things you don't want to agree to (you can't always be Mr Agreeable nice guy or you could shoot yourself in the foot) You might want to start a separate thread on Mediation Strategies. 

Panda39

[Radcliff]

Mediation could fail also because you are unable to maintain your boundaries.  Is a lawyer attending mediation with you?  What are your goals in mediation?  What are your boundaries?  Where are you willing to compromise and how much?  You do understand that not everything has to be solved in Mediation.  You could agree to some things but not others, or you might come to full agreement, or  no agreement.  But for the sake of your kids don't agree to things you don't want to agree to (you can't always be Mr Agreeable nice guy or you could shoot yourself in the foot) You might want to start a separate thread on Mediation Strategies. 

I agree with Panda39.  The idea of mediating with a pwBPD who is out on a restraining order makes me nervous.  Especially if boundaries are an issue.  One option with mediation is to have a "consulting attorney" who you meet with for advice.  Avoid any format where you have to make decisions on the fly, especially in front of your wife.  Even if it means more meetings with the mediator.

I believe you said that your wife's expectations are not always reasonable.  Is that true?  Keep an eye on how things go.  You may make some progress with the mediator, but may have to bail if things don't go well.

WW

[kells76]

Hi fontinalis (and all);

(I've been off the boards for a bit -- can you believe that some crises have nothing to do with the kids?)

Sounds like you have some good stuff to look forward to (a positive relationship), and some new challenges to work with (coparenting boundaries). I'm with Panda39 -- is her Talking Parents message about the kids? No? No apologies or explanations necessary. An apology ("sorry, it just won't work for you to be at my birthday" or explanation ("it's only because you and I have a different relationship now", no matter how "softly" phrased, may sound like this to her: "Will you please erode my boundaries and have a conflict with me about this, emphasizing how you're right and I'm wrong?" Only you can decide if that's what you want.

Oh, and she may attempt to make non-kid related messages "about the kids" -- "the kids will be so sad if I'm not at your birthday", etc. If that sounds like a tricky situation for you, you can always run it past us on the boards, or a counselor/third party, to use their eyes to see if the message is REALLY about the kids.

In terms of mediation, FD has good advice about avoiding situations where you "have to" make a decision immediately. Maybe you can practice some key phrases to stay in the driver's seat: "Let me think about that", "Great question, I'll get back to you in 48 hours with my take on it", "I couldn't agree more that we should decide; I'll let you know on Monday by 5pm".

In some locations, a mediation participant can request separate rooms -- this may especially be true if a RO is involved. The mediator goes back and forth between the rooms. I think maybe LnL did this? You can think about if that setup would help you stay focused on what your kids need (vs the intensity of their mom's emotions).

[livednlearned]

In some locations, a mediation participant can request separate rooms -- this may especially be true if a RO is involved. The mediator goes back and forth between the rooms. I think maybe LnL did this? You can think about if that setup would help you stay focused on what your kids need (vs the intensity of their mom's emotions).

Yep, we had separate rooms.

It's apparently pretty normal in my county for high-conflict divorces to separate the parties in different rooms.

There are pros and cons.

[ForeverDad]

Apparently most courts require mediation as a first step, often after the divorce's temp order is set.  So you can't avoid mediation.  However, don't view mediation as something that must succeed.  It might but too often in our cases the stbEx is too entitled, controlling and demanding to agree to even halfway reasonable terms.

I had mediation ordered.  After the first of three ordered sessions the mediator said not to return unless we could negotiate on custody and parenting time.  It turned out to be a two year divorce and it was only on Trial Day 1.5 years later that we settled, she had a favorable temp order and couldn't delay any longer.

To repeat, enter mediation with hopes it might succeed but don't bargain away, Gift Away, any reasonable terms you have now. Yes, some day the judge may grant her more than you wish but if you have reasons otherwise with your boundaries then you shouldn't feel pressured to Gift what you believe shouldn't be gifted.