Matthew 8:23-27 [Christian Discussion]

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Any kind of police record, jumped up or whatever and my career is gone... .if that’s me counting earthly wealth then that’s just going to have to be a line wheee my faith stops. I’ve read enough posts from gents on the board who’ve involved the police in domestic business and it’s not gone well for them.

I have imvolved the right people, hell the pair of them have imvolved 5 different sets of Christian groups/leaders in an attempt to convince and gain validation that their “friendship” was blessed as sent by god! Each group told them to stop (excluding their local church whom they didn’t approach obvs) in no uncertain terms yet they continue unabaited... .and yes, these religious consultations were after the meaaages I shared in another thread. THEY KNOW but as Notwendy says, narcissists don’t believe the rules apply to them and BPDs can’t freaking help themselves when they feel it’s right!

[Enabler]

Any kind of police record, jumped up or whatever and my career is gone... .if that’s me counting earthly wealth then that’s just going to have to be a line wheee my faith stops. I’ve read enough posts from gents on the board who’ve involved the police in domestic business and it’s not gone well for them.

I have imvolved the right people, hell the pair of them have imvolved 5 different sets of Christian groups/leaders in an attempt to convince and gain validation that their “friendship” was blessed as sent by god! Each group told them to stop (excluding their local church whom they didn’t approach obvs) in no uncertain terms yet they continue unabaited... .and yes, these religious consultations were after the meaaages I shared in another thread. THEY KNOW but as Notwendy says, narcissists don’t believe the rules apply to them and BPDs can’t freaking help themselves when they feel it’s right!

[formflier]

Certainly I would involve a consult with a lawyer, but generally speaking, as long as you are presenting the truth and have evidence to back it up, it's not slanderous, libelous... .or any of that.

What exactly are they going to "go to the police with"?

Seriously... exactly what will they claim?

And... .if it's your value judgment to put your career above biblical clarity of your marriage vows... .that's an OK judgment to make.  I certainly support anyone and everyone to make value judgments about what they are going to believe or not.

If that is going to be the case that you arrange your values in that way, I would suggest that you evaluate that value judgment against your other values to make sure they are consistent. 

Use the same scale to measure yourself in different areas of your life... .also make sure the same scale that you measure yourself with, is one you are willing to measure others with.

Matthew 7:2 would be good to study on and I would certainly recommend reading surrounding verses to make sure it is in context.

I believe that general message to be consistent throughout the Bible.  Said another way, I'm not sure of any place where it is suggest to measure someone else by a scale you are not willing to use on yourself.

Thoughts?

Again... .they are getting a consistent message, yet their local church doesn't know.  I think it is entirely in your purview to let the local church know or ask those counselors to let the local church know... .or more than likely go with you.

The Bible is not big on doing things anonymously. 

FF

[Enabler]

What exactly are they going to "go to the police with"?

Invasion of privacy accessing personal data, coercive control (which is pretty easy to claim with very little evidence at all), general "abuse" (which again is very easy to claim with no evidence at all). She has already shown interest in restraining orders but not gone there and I believe she has opened an "abuse" file with the police as she received a letter from victim support. At that point I massively freaked and realised she was on her own on this one. I'm all for being proactive and trying to sort this out... .show people the truth... .make them see... .but there's a point where I am playing with someone with a gun and I'm not sure anymore whether or not she is prepared to use it as her delusions fueled by others that I am trying to destroy her are making her dangerous and unpredictable. Fighting to the death is not in anyone's interest.

Here's an example of how others are fueling (I might add I am fueling by the very act of trying to stop her from blowing up our family, snooping, trying to tell her, telling the church, telling her parents... .etc etc):

Her Mum recently bought her a book called "Unravelled" by Vikie Sharks... .“September 15th 2007 is a date that will stay with me always. For it’s the day that Paul, my late husband and father to my seven children, decided he’d had enough of the life he had created for us all, and took himself off to the woods on the edge of our property, and fatally slashed his neck and arms.” I was thinking, hmmm this is kinda positive reading the back summary, maybe this is something about BPD... .anyway, I read a bit and looked online and then watched the film on Netflix called "Kingdom of us". Turns out it isn't anything to do with BPD (although one of his surviving kids now suffers from BPD due to the childhood trauma), it's about the fact that the Dad was controlling, he had a model of happiness that he imposed on his wife and kids and when that model didn't provide the happiness he expected he planned to lock all the kids in each of their rooms and kill them one by one. Fortunately he changed his mind and instead committed suicide. My MIL thinks that I am the one that is controlling my family, the one attempting to derive some utopia, who's forcing his family to do xyz, to live here, to go here on holiday. She could not be further from the truth. So now, she's injected the idea that I plan to lock everyone in their rooms and kill the whole family... .because that's what 'Paul' did.

I see life in the grey, I am rarely Black or White about anything, in fact I'm the worst contrarian. I'm not even that Black and White about my wife's affair. On some level I do get it. I don't condone it, but I get how it happens. Sometimes I do feel like God is telling us to 'stay in the boat, keep your hands in and just bail out'.

Proverbs 20:22 - Do not say "I will repay evil"; wait for the lord, and he will deliver you.

Ephisians 4:1-3 - As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

My values are for me... .I will not have a relationship with another woman whilst I am married to my W. I will protect my family (I cannot protect them if I have a restraining order against me). I have realised that I cannot protect my wife from herself though.

[Notwendy]

Do you have your own lawyer, Enabler? Even if you personally are not interested in divorce, it seems you could need a lawyer to defend you for these false allegations.

Your MIL seems to have some distorted thinking too. With her, your wife, and OM all building a case against you, you may need someone competent with the law in your camp.

This reminds me of when my BPD mother was angry at me and called up relatives to give them an earful of lies about me. Then she told them not to tell me what she said. The one mistake she made was to call my in laws ( who are on to her ) and they told me about it. Otherwise I would have had no idea.

As a result, her FOO stopped speaking to me altogether. There were a few family occasions where I was there and it was embarrassing to think they really thought that what she said was true. I thought about approaching them to clear the record, but it would have put them in the situation to either believe her or me, and it could also backfire if I was perceived as speaking poorly about my mother- and that was consistent with what they have heard from her- "her daughter mistreats her".

Like you, I decided that Truth would prevail in its own time and so I went on living according to my own values. If they didn't know the truth, God did. But what was not at stake was a divorce, custody of children, my finances or my job. She did considerable damage to my relationships with her FOO, but not the other things I mentioned. You have a lot at stake in this. I hope that you have some solid defense.

[Enabler]

I wish it was overt enough to defend. I don't 'know' about most of this stuff ((or at least I am not supposed to 'know' and have 'found' most of it out by my snooping. I can theorise as much as I like about what has been said and what has gone on but only W knows the full picture. FOO's tend to rally around and protect the injured fawn... .in my W's case there are 3 injured fawn's all protecting each other... .MIL who's the root cause of the mayhem, SIL who's very spiteful and condescending (bullied W as well when younger), and my W... .FIL just nods and keeps his head down whilst taking endless verbal from MIL. I have had informal legal advice from a friend who is a lawyer and works in a large law practice. He spends a lot of time chuckling at the absurdity of it all. I also have a friend who's a police office who advised me about what would be the polices likely course of action there.

My hunch is that W has said I have abused her to FOO by "controlling her", MIL has drawn her own conclusions based on me having a job and have provided for my family and that I don't tolerate her kind of abuse (like FIL does) that I must be a psychopath who has some insane ideas of what a loving family should look like... .who will then go and kill his whole family! FWIW MIL's idea of a loving family is standing at the kitchen sink calling my FIL a useless idiot, whilst painting everyone black, blaming anyone but herself for the fact that the roast potatoes were ever so slightly more crispy than she'd like... .before ignoring everyone for 2 weeks. FEEEEEEEEEEEEL THE LOVE.

Notwendy, like you I have decided that there is enough 'evidence' out there to point people to the truth if they choose to see it. Every time I try and point to the factual evidence, it somehow reinforces to her supporters that I am abusive as they see the emotional evidence. "Can you not see you're upsetting her?"... ."I can but what does the fact that she's crying mean I actually did anything worth of her tears?"

I have a lot of evidence that suggests a pattern of behaviors which predates me. How this would help me I don't know really. I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

[formflier]

My values are for me... .I will not have a relationship with another woman whilst I am married to my W. I will protect my family (I cannot protect them if I have a restraining order against me). I have realised that I cannot protect my wife from herself though.

Doesn't God have some instructions about "how" you go about protecting your family from this kind of thing?

Your values are for you... I agree... .I would hope you would also agree they are for your marriage, at least what you can control.

So... .is there a criminal code that covers the items you listed?  Those sound very general.

I'm not minimizing them in the least.  This sounds like the kind of thing a conversation with a lawyer could clear up. 

FOG  ... .there is a heavy "fear" element based on her potentially doing irrational things.

FF

[Enabler]

Doesn't God have some instructions about "how" you go about protecting your family from this kind of thing?

Your values are for you... I agree... .I would hope you would also agree they are for your marriage, at least what you can control.

So... .is there a criminal code that covers the items you listed?  Those sound very general.

I'm not minimizing them in the least.  This sounds like the kind of thing a conversation with a lawyer could clear up. 

FOG  ... .there is a heavy "fear" element based on her potentially doing irrational things.

FF

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/controlling-or-coercive-behaviour-intimate-or-family-relationship

The definition is intentionally vague and focuses a lot on "causes the victim to xyz". Since intimate relationship deputes are predominantly focused around a lot of he said she said, especially in cases where there is not "incident" to speak of. It comes down to who the police believe. Just refer to the member a week or so ago who was slammed on the head deliberately by his dysregulating wife then proceeds to almost be arrested by a nearby cop! Anyway, my relationship with my wife is not under my control, I can offer my side of the relationship such that if she chose to offer her side we could reconnect... .but I cannot actually control the marriage because that is between 2 people. I fear that if I further provocate her it will be easy for the authorities to 'prove' abusive behaviour or at the very least harassment. e.g. she has told me that she wants a divorce and she has started the legal process. There is nothing stopping her from having an affair and in the eyes of the law since she has informed me she no longer wants to be in a relationship with me and started the legal process to action that (even at a slow pace) any attempt of me to involve myself in her personal matters (religiously right or wrong) could be seen as slander and harassment, especially since any evidence I would have would be from personal private emails between her and OM (albeit old now).

JADEing regardless of whether or not directly to her or via the church is counterproductive, we know that, as her reality is not based on a foundation of facts. Each time I have done this to 'save' our marriage and 'show' her the error of her ways it has further pushed her towards OM and reinforced their perception that "people don't get it". As we know, regardless of insurmountable evidence, people with BPD and NPD (maybe applicable to OM) will reject what evidence points to. She has to find out the error of her ways on her own. Where I can control that  is by not allowing her to escape via enabling her delusion (OM can do that and she will find out he is wrong). Not enabling her delusion comes in the form of not giving her what she feels she is entitled to which isn't reasonable (despite tantrums), not providing her with an excuse not to look at her own behaviour (being as emotionally chaotic as her in response to her), not rescuing her from situations with the kids that she creates, not standing in the way of the legal process of divorce, not allowing her to take a "Mummy and Daddy don't love each other" line with the kids when we tell them, not making grotesque promises about financial or practical support when we get divorced. I'm not sugar coating it in the slightest for her.

Her downside to irrational behaviour is very limited, mine is very high, she knows that. I feel some big educated F, limited O and no G. I'm playing smart... .I wasn't for 19 years.

[formflier]

So... .here is the thing that I would like you to think through.

I'm not at all trying to judge rightness or wrongness, I would like you to think through consistency and how it relates to your faith.   Also back to the "using the same scales to measure" thoughts.

God, through the Bible is pretty clear about his expectations of behavior in marriage, you wife has elected to ignore or otherwise rationalize ignoring part of that.

God, through the Bible is pretty clear about his expectations of how to "confront" someone doing things such as your wife and the OM, yet you appear to be ignoring or otherwise rationalizing skipping this part.

Lots to think about.

FF

[empath]

There is a weird, intense bond that happens between npd and BPD people - even without sexuality being involved. Also, men with narcissistic tendencies tend to be seen in higher than proportionate numbers in church leadership contexts.

It is very, very difficult to get people to admit the truth, and even if they admit it, they may not be willing to do anything about it. Sometimes, the web of lies is so thick that the truth is confusing and gets rejected. I know because I have been trying to speak truth into a web.

My h was involved in church leadership (he was clergy) and was serving under a rector who had some strong npd tendencies. They fed off of each other; I could see it, but others didn't seem to notice. Others were being told lies about me. I was told to worship somewhere else if what was going on at their church wasn't okay with me; I did. Then, they had to come up with lies to tell people about why I wasn't there.

Oh, h has lied and complained about me and my boundaries to his family who haven't really talked with me since much of this started.

For my part, I kind of knew that eventually h's instability would become apparent. I like to think of it as "stable instability". It did show itself again about 5 months ago when his church situation blew up. I also knew that keeping a safe distance was most likely the best course of action since it seemed to be the only one available to me.

I would encourage you to document the objective reality of what it going on during this time.

Do you have another church that you could attend?

[formflier]

Empath,

The "things going on" at the church that you were invited to go somewhere else... .if you didn't like them... .were they clear Biblical matters of sin (such as adultery... .I'm not aware of any way around that) or did they fall into "debatable" areas (I don't know... such as full immersion versus sprinkling versus role of women)

On the debatable issues I certainly have my own opinion but I completely acknowledge there are scriptures that suggest either way is ok...   In theory, Christians are supposed to "give grace" in those situations and are not supposed to try and "force" each other to change.  Debatable issues really aren't appropriate for Matthew discipline process either.

Anyway... I'm curious.

FF

[Enabler]

Empath, I attend another church, a church that I do not believe this situation would have evolved in. We were married in the church and my wife attended a great home group there (she has always been more active in the church and involved in church life). The home group was a good grounding for W and she still seeks guidance from the group. They have consistently said to cease any relationship with OM although they understood it to be just a friendship. She is intentionally frugal with the bits that might appear to make her sound guilty (for obvious reasons). She decided unilaterally to change churches due to the children having friends at the other church (namely OMs 2 kids) and I did not want to change churches due to new church being a very conservative CofE church. The new church doesn’t have any interest in seeing the truth and it’s pretty evident that neither does our local community, many of which tell me they ‘know’ nothing is going on between W and OM... .and refute any suggestion that I may have seen evidence to the contrary.

FF, I hear you, I really do. I feel I have done what the bible and my conscience tells me to. I am not a strong Christian and as I have mentioned before re my father I have felt let down by gods promises and confusing messages before. God needs to do something, it’s in his hands, I will be patient and trust he will help me but it’s out of my hands. Every time I try and do anything similar to what you suggest it fails. It’s over to you god.

[empath]

Empath,

The "things going on" at the church that you were invited to go somewhere else... .if you didn't like them... .were they clear Biblical matters of sin (such as adultery... .I'm not aware of any way around that) or did they fall into "debatable" areas (I don't know... such as full immersion versus sprinkling versus role of women)

FF, the things that were happening were clear Biblical matters of sin; I have grace for the "debatable" areas as well. I wouldn't have brought the issues up if they were preferences. When I've described what was happening to other Christian leaders, they are shocked that something wasn't done.


Enabler, I'm glad that you are at another church that seems reasonable and willing to take a stand. When I needed to find a different church, I went back to our former church that wasn't going to endorse what h was doing in our family life, and h wasn't going to attend there for the same reason. H's (former?) church wasn't interested in doing anything about the truth until they had to do something because the situation had gotten very bad and there were some serious consequences. The church believed that their leaders were going to bring them back to their glory days.

[Red5]

Good morning Enabler from the eastern seaboard of the Colonies, sitting here in the Jeep in the Church parking lot, I have usher duties this morning, it’s a beautiful Sunday morning here on the crystal coast of North Carolina this Lord’s day... .just wanted you to know that you and your family are in all our hearts and prayers... .I hope that you have a wonderful day, hang tough Enabler, we are all here for you,

Red5

[formflier]

FF, the things that were happening were clear Biblical matters of sin; I have grace for the "debatable" areas as well. I wouldn't have brought the issues up if they were preferences. When I've described what was happening to other Christian leaders, they are shocked that something wasn't done.
 

Did you  put it in writing... and did they respond in writing?  Did it keep going up the "chain of command" so far?

Did the entire church body hear the matter?

I'm curious... because I'm curious.  I've also stirred the pot some going "outside" the church I currently attend, to bring visibility to some things that are unethical (by their own written standards).

I'm going to be curious... .interested in where it goes.

FF

[Enabler]

I hope that you have a wonderful day, hang tough Enabler, we are all here for you

So it’s been scortchio here in many respects here today, in fact the temp in Enabler towers seems to be at nuclear level and has been for a couple of weeks now. Friday night started the fun with a social event in the village tainted by a death of an alcoholic husband of one of the popular village mums. W was upset and so my guess is that she contacts OM. I find them out the front of the pub on their own having a heart to heart, looked very private. I had planned to leave anyway and was actually attempting to find her to let her know I was going home. I spoke with appropriate abruptness and then proceeded to vent walking back through the pub. W confronts me “why are you doing this enabler?” “I’m allowed to be upset, the man is a @@@, you know what I know and I think it’s acceptable to be angry and upset. I’m going home.”

Yesterday and today she has been spitting venom, silently of course.

I am sitting in the garden, it is late for under 10’s to be going to bed and there’s a whole host of dysregulating people. Some whom you might expect to be because they are too young to control their emotions, and one adult.

Yet I’m sure it’s all my fault some way or other.

Red... .pray harder, your prayers are ALWAYS appreciated.

Oh... .took D9 & D8 to the old church today and they liked it a lot. W made it clear there was no moving back though.

[empath]

I agree with you, Enabler; it is perfectly acceptable for you to be angry and hurt about their relationship. God was pretty angry when his people kept committing "spiritual adultery".

My h doesn't want to attend either our former church or the one that I'm attending now - he says they would 'judge' him (iow, expect him to actually try to follow Scriptures... .).

One thing that I do know is God sees all of it.

[formflier]

Oh... .took D9 & D8 to the old church today and they liked it a lot. W made it clear there was no moving back though.

Old church?  I'm still learning your story.

FF

[Enabler]

Old Church - Church where we married, progressive Church of England Church, reasonable youth population, multiple congregations

W's New Church/Local Church - VERY conservative 10th century village Church of England Church. Our kids are pretty much the youth ministry, predominantly old people. W believes it is her calling to transform into a similar church to 'Old Church'. Kinda an odd church when every event seems to come hand in hand with a drink in the local pub... .not something I am used to being raised in a Baptist church.

W decided to stop going to old church because our kids were reluctant to go to the youth groups because they had no friends there... .they enjoyed it when they were there but it was always pitched as optional and running battles ensued. OM's kids went to 'New Church' so they were happier to go to Sunday School there. I felt no religious enthusiasm for 'New Church' and since W was more into Church than me she felt like she 'knew' and I didn't and made her own unilateral decision. I think she retrospectively generated the idea that it was her calling. W has done some good things at the new church but nothing has gained it's own momentum due to the lack of youthful bodies... .I also wonder if the fact that it's pretty common knowledge that her and OM are having an inappropriate relationship is a bit of a barrier to new people attending as they think "hypocrites"... .I certainly know some do.

[empath]

Enabler, my h's church is predominantly older people, mostly retired. My kids were the 'youth', too; well, until my young adult daughter started having a problem with the hypocrisy of her dad's life not lining up with what he said and stopped going to church and taking my younger daughter. H thought he could transform his church, too - they accepted him and swept the sin under the rug. It always felt more like a social club to me than a real church where people were growing in their faith.

[Enabler]

Do they go to the same church?

A friend of mine once described churches as “a golf club for non-golfers” it’s such a shame but many many churches are just that. You have the leaders who are power hungry monkeys who like the sound of their own voice and prove their “vision” by pushing through their grand ideas to build their Tower of Babel. Then you have the people who make the tea and coffee and they’re painful in need of something to organise and gain a sense of significance... .I could go on and on. It’s harsh and judgemental, and I guess we all need some sort of motivation, but it’s a shame that true altruism is few and far between in a lot of church institutions. I love those small churches in a shed, they feel very genuine. We judge the ‘success’ of a church on its size and youthfulness rather than whether it meets the spiritual needs of the congregation.

Xx

Enabler

[BetterLanes]

Hi Enabler - I have been following this thread with interest but little time to post on it lately, sorry!

Your W's new old church sounds very much like our local parish church before the new vicar came. The Catholic church is also a surprisingly good place to hide out - if you don't actively take your own sins to Confession, you can just go ahead and keep them to yourself. I think the system probably works with people with more developed consciences, and/or people who are genuinely concerned about ending up in Hell or Purgatory due to some unconfessed sin, but the latter tend to be in the older generation (I have met some). I have taught my D "once saved, always saved". If you don't have any internally or externally generated fears and can justify your behavior, you are quite free to turn up at Mass and say the words and never be called out. There are also no home groups (and few Bible studies) - you say the group gave your W correct advice which she is ignoring. I'd love a home group to participate in.

Praying for God to act on this for you soon! Psalm 10 is a good one:

 Arise, Lord! Lift up your hand, O God.
    Do not forget the helpless.
 Why does the wicked man revile God?
    Why does he say to himself,
    “He won’t call me to account”?
 But you, God, see the trouble of the afflicted;
    you consider their grief and take it in hand. 

BetterLanes x

[Enabler]

Thank you Betterlanes that's a lovely verse and very pertinent. I went to an ecumenical school which crossed the boundaries of Catholic, CofE and Free churches. I know what you mean about the Catholic structure. Sometimes it seemed more like symbolic ethnicity rather than meaningful faith.

My W and her OM sought counsel from 5 different religious groups/wise people. They prepared for it from what I could see on my snooping with OM he tried to primer her as to what to say:

"the important thing for tonight is about the overpowering and unbreachable need for support that we've given each other, I don't expect your group to buy that though because it has just complicated things for you. Let me know what they say and we'll have to plan a workable recession in the contact I guess, but not sudden, that doesn't seem to work. We both must be stronger than ever in our lives to do it, it's a pity that friendship should have to yield to such pressure but nobody else seems to get it like we do."

They kicked themselves when these interactions didn't come away with a validating response of "it's okay" or "that's God working in you both". But whatever was said, however vehemently the relationship was rejected as inappropriate... .they continued unabated. 

To give you a feel of my W thoughts, they both read a daily email from a popular London Church, they believed it was Gods way of talking to them. They believed they were special... .and arguably different rules applied to them:

"Psalm 91:9-16
To me, those were the words you were giving me during our phone call. I needed you to speak that to me, to reassure me, at my time of real fear. It worked and I was so immensely grateful to have you on the other end of the phone. And here I am now, this morning, reading it.

Corinthians 2:6-16
It feels like I am reading about my experience last night. Boy was His Spirit in me! The whole spiritual experience, plane, extraordinary, God's Spirit and mine in open communion. Christ knows and we have Christ's Spirit. My comment about me not knowing what was going on, what I was fighting, but not needing to know because His Spirit knows. It's all in there in these passages.

And then... . 

•   This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words’ (2:13).

This to me, this is what happened when I was talking in tongues last night.

The below also explains why OM's W and Enabler cannot fathom it. Simply because they do not yet have His Spirit. As it was with me, it is the only thing that brings true understanding. "

[Notwendy]

I don't understand what OM is saying. It sounds like he's making up stuff.

I once got a phone call from a person wanting to solicit a sale. He talked like "OM" saying things like "It would be a good steward of your finances to consider this product" and other Biblical phrases, but the point of the call was to sell me something and he was framing the sale as if it was some honorable thing to do.

Is OM sugar coating what he wants in religious phrases?

[Enabler]

Yes, very very much so. That's what he does. It's his cloak of respectability.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works

1 Peter 5:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

See the thing is my W searches out people who validate the bad/ immoral/ disrespectful/ inconsiderate/ impulsive things she does. She searches out people who validate her delusional thought (which then leads to paranoia), OM is just this type of guy.

A long standing friend said to me a 18m ago... ."Oh Enabler, EnablerW doesn't speak to me about these kinds of things, because she knows she wont get the answer she likes." Which really sums it up. I can track the rollercoaster of our relationship based on the people she was associating herself with.

[Red5]

Notwendy wrote: I don't understand what OM is saying. It sounds like he's making up stuff... .Is OM sugar coating what he wants in religious phrases?

Enabler replies: Yes, very very much so. That's what he does. It's his cloak of respectability.

Oh' Man!

I have to add, the scripture is VERY explicit about anyone who attempts to use the word of the Good Lord, the actual verses of scripture to bad (evil) ends, .yes "very", .and wow !

That's "whole affair" is not going to go over very well with the Good Lord... .and'... .to use the scripture to validate it... .wow  !

Jude 1:4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and LORD.

2 Peter 2:3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Revelation 22:18-19 18;I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19;And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Woe be tide to "OM"... .hmmm,

Red5

[Turkish]

My "OM" was super holy Christian.  It was painful, but I trusted Galations 6:7, and also that vengeance wasn't mine to repay.  After a couple of years it came true.  He even ended up being arrested because of her (and he not following there directionsof the cops).