Hello. I need help: We both have been abused, I want a healthy relationship

[letgo]

Hello!

I am not sure whether my partner or I have borderline personality disorder, or narcisstic personality disorder.

We are both addicts (one of us to food, one of us to computer/internet/gaming). We have both been diagnosed with mental disorders (one of us with bipolar disorder, one of us with obsessive compulsive disorder) We have both been making progress in our compulsive addictions over the last few months. We both grew up in severely abusive homes with mothers who did not respect boundaries, nurture us appropriately, and who verbally abused our families. My father didn't fight back. He accomodated and placated my mother. My spouse's father screamed back at my spouse's mother.

Both of us had to break away from our families. I moved three hours away and did my best to stay separated from my birth family's insanity, except for holidays. My spouse moved out, but stayed close enough to visit regularly and took care of my mother-in-law during her last years, although it was painful for us.

My mind is clearer, and my perceptions are not as clouded, now that I've cut back on my addiction. I believe that at least one of us has borderline personality disorder because our boundaries seem to be a mess most of the time, from my perspective. I would like to be able to communicate and set healthy boundaries and not lose myself in this relationship. Our income is limited. Years ago, we had gone to couple's counseling and it helped. Now that we are no longer working, I am not sure we can afford counseling again.

I need to grow up and let go of my own selfishness. I also need to let go of my expectations that my spouse will change. I want to learn to have a healthy relationship, or, if that is not possible, then I want to let go of my marriage. My spouse does not want our marriage to end. I want to understand what my spouse needs and wants, and which of those things I can safely do in a healthy way, and which of those things would be harmful for either of us.

We have been together for over 30 years.

Thanks for listening.
"let go"

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[once removed]

hey letgo, and

i admire your attitude! mental and emotional change are really hard work, but they can pay enormous dividends in our relationships, and in terms of our own peace of mind and emotional equilibrium.

30 years is a long time, congratulations! i can tell the two of you are committed to each other and your relationship.

setting boundaries can be a challenging concept to grasp. we often think of them as a quick fix to squabbles ie "ive been disrespected, so ill set a boundary." our boundaries come from our values, and i like to think of healthy boundaries as a lifestyle, and they are around the things that i can control: me, and my actions.

we have a great article here thats a great start, along with a discussion that includes practical examples: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

so, what are some of the problems around this area in your relationship?

[letgo]

hey letgo, and

i admire your attitude! mental and emotional change are really hard work, but they can pay enormous dividends in our relationships, and in terms of our own peace of mind and emotional equilibrium.

30 years is a long time, congratulations! i can tell the two of you are committed to each other and your relationship.

setting boundaries can be a challenging concept to grasp. we often think of them as a quick fix to squabbles ie "ive been disrespected, so ill set a boundary." our boundaries come from our values, and i like to think of healthy boundaries as a lifestyle, and they are around the things that i can control: me, and my actions.

we have a great article here thats a great start, along with a discussion that includes practical examples: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

so, what are some of the problems around this area in your relationship?

Hello "once removed,"
Thanks for the links. I started reading about the 3 parts of Value, Boundary, Action. I am not sure yet how to apply this in my case.

Here's something which happened earlier this week. I apologize for the length. I believe a certain level of detail is needed.

• In the morning my spouse asked me to walk one of our dogs and to take out the kitchen trash. It's in a small room off the kitchen, which also has the washer and dryer in it.
  
• I agreed, acknowledging that I had noticed the trash was getting full the previous night.
  
• My spouse said yes, and now it's even worse.
  
• My spouse left to walk our other dog.
  
• I walked our dog
  
• At some point while spouse was out, I took the trash out. I noticed the black spots on the bottom of the trash can which had been there a while. I decided to do something about it.
  
• I put diluted bleach in the bottom of the can and set it in my bathroom tub, to let it soak and loosen things up.
  
• I moved my spouse's laundry from the washing machine to the dryer.
  
• When my spouse returned, I remember we were both in the kitchen. spouse noticed that I had put the trash can lid on top of the clothes dryer. All hell broke lose. I'll try to remember as best as I can, although my memory of these events tends be very bad when these episodes occur.
  
• Spouse says something about my never remembering not to put the lid on top the dryer, as they have asked many times in the past (I can't recall a single time, but that could be me)
  
• Spouse says it is disgusting and filthy and the top of the dryer is a place that was supposed to be clean because he/she presses against it while doing the laundry.
  
• Says something, I can't recall the exact wording, which means, "Go clean this disgusting mess you created up NOW!" The challenge to exert control now starts in earnest.
  
• I reacted with my own knee-jerk thought/feeling, something like: hey, this person is way over the line, so disrespectful, grrrr... .ANGRY
  
• I said something like, No. You can't contol my actions, my thoughts, my feelings, etc. etc. I stated the facts, and in my mind, there was no emotion. If that were true, then my coldness was unkind. If there were emotion, then it'd would've been my anger. Either way, I was not sensitive to my mate's triggered emotional state. Actually, I was not aware of the state because my own state was so intense. Had I been able to be aware of my spouse's triggered state, a much better response would have been to go to my heart and connected to them, with compassion, acceptance and understanding of *both* of our states. I missed this opportunity :-(
  
• Spouse responds by opening the refrigerator, spitting into it, telling me they are never going to wipe that clean, and that they did this by following my reasoning, that I can't control them or whether they spit into the refrigerator and later on would clean it up. Leaves the room in a huff (We are both over the age of 55.)
  
• Later in the day, while we are working together on a joint chore, this episode comes up. After spouse communicates how disgusting the trash can lid is, I say I will prove it is not. I get it from the kitchen, bring it over, and lick the bottom rim of it, all the way around, in front of them. How dangerous could it possibly be, now that they've seen me do this?
  
• Honestly, I don't recall the exact order of these things. We were working on our joint task. Spouse brings up the subject of ending our marriage. I say, I would be okay with that. Spouse looks floored, says something like, oh, so you would be {fine/happy/something I did not say.} I correct the use of language. I said, I did not say I would be fine. I did not say it wouldn't hurt, that I would not be in a lot of pain. I said I would be okay with it, that I would accept it. Basically, I was saying I would respect that decision if they made it.
  
• Also during our working on this joint task, at one point, my mate leaned in to within just a few inches of my face and angrily screamed something in my face. I had been deep-breathing to keep my calm at that point, and so I did not react with defensiveness. I let it go. Years ago, I would have screamed back. Even more years ago, I would have left the room and stayed away for hours, shaking and crying. I have learned that my running away doesn't resolve anything.
  
• We finished our joint task eventually.
  
• A while later, we had the "resolution talk" that my spouse likes to have after one of these episodes. We rehash things. Sometimes it is a verbal sparring match about who was wrong and who was right. That went on a little bit. I recognized that I lacked sensitivity when I bluntly (and possibly, from her perspective, brutally) stated the facts that they could not control my actions. I apologized for reacting that way. He/she apologized for getting up in my face and screaming. Throughout the conversation, spouse continued to try to put words in my mouth and thoughts, beliefs or feelings in my head/heart. I found myself constantly correcting these mistakes. "No, that's not what I said. No that's not what I was thinking. No that's not what I'm feeling/was feeling." I tried to express that I believe it is my responsibility for me to learn how to create safe boundaries for myself in our relationship. That doing so does not mean that I get to ask him/her to change behaviors. They disagreed and said that is what relationship is about - understanding one's partner and trying to change behaviors accordingly. After this talk went on for a while, somehow we got to the point where we both agreed we wanted to continue our relationship. We were able to move on with other things.
  

Again, sorry for such a long post. I want to understand the three part boundary creation process, and maybe even role-play practice it with someone. Values... .boundary... .action. I practice deep breathing and meditation outside the interactions with my spouse, and doing so makes it possible for me to do it "on the spot" when a crisis event occurs.

Thank you!
"let go"

[Radcliff]

Welcome!  I am impressed that you've come to the conclusion that you are going to work to better your relationship skills to see if you can preserve your long relationship and live happily.

You've described quite a bit of reactivity in your interactions with each other.  The first thing to do is to get out of the mindset of fixing all your relationship problems each time there is a conflict.  Your first goal is to avoid making things worse.  Establish self-control.  If you can get through a few conflicts without fanning the flames, like licking a garbage can lid to prove a point, then you should pat yourself on the back -- it's a huge accomplishment to learn how not to react.  Delaying tactics can sometimes be helpful -- take a deep breath or two to gather your wits before you respond.  Rehearse some phrases like, "you might be right," or "thanks, I'll take a look at that" for when your spouse says something in a not-so-nice way -- phrases that don't necessarily agree, but show them you've heard them.

Besides relieving yourself of the expectation of fixing all your relationship problems in one conversation, you also must let go of fixing your partner -- you can only control your own actions.

Check out this Three-Minute Lesson on Ending Conflict..

Are you able to take advantage of any 12 step recovery programs in your area?  They can be a huge help, since they combine teaching tools with in-person fellowship and support, and they are free.

WW

[letgo]

Welcome!  I am impressed that you've come to the conclusion that you are going to work to better your relationship skills to see if you can preserve your long relationship and live happily.

You've described quite a bit of reactivity in your interactions with each other.  The first thing to do is to get out of the mindset of fixing all your relationship problems each time there is a conflict.

I have already let go of that, after three decades of marriage, and also our previous marriage counseling.

  Your first goal is to avoid making things worse.

Yes, lot of goals, and this is one of them. I know there are ways to engage my loved one and a conflict situation without provoking more reactivity from my mate.

  Establish self-control. 

This is very good advice. I'm attempting to do so, and it is getting easier now that I am no longer engaging in addictive activities. Engaging in addiction makes it impossible for me to control the reactivity impulse.

I am more present in my life and in my marriage. My spouse has noticed this and has expressed appreciation. Yet, when triggered the other day, came out with "Why don't you go back to your addiction?" I said I wouldn't do that. But it is confusing for me when my loved one says opposite things at different times.

Both of us have serious mental illnesses, and addictions. We both have our shares of impulsive control issues, and both were verbally abused in childhood. I don't expect myself to have 100% control over my reactivity 100% of the time. That would be setting myself up for failure.

If you can get through a few conflicts without fanning the flames, like licking a garbage can lid to prove a point, then you should pat yourself on the back -- it's a huge accomplishment to learn how not to react.

I did that to desensitize my OCD spouse about deadly germs being on the garbage can lid. I did not do it to "prove a point."

When I responded coldly, rather than empathetically and with understanding, earlier in the day, it set up the conflict later in the day. Declaring "facts" about how my spouse can't make me do things, using my logical mind rather than integrating both my feelings and my logical thoughts into a more compassionate response. Had I done this in the first place, the situation may have gone differently... .

I am not sure if the desensitizing technique worked to calm exploding anxiety and fear. I believe that in this situation it was not a cruel, escalating reactive behavior which "fanned flames."

Delaying tactics can sometimes be helpful -- take a deep breath or two to gather your wits before you respond.

Agreed. I was practicing deep breathing when we came back to this issue later in the day.

Rehearse some phrases like, "you might be right," or "thanks, I'll take a look at that" for when your spouse says something in a not-so-nice way -- phrases that don't necessarily agree, but show them you've heard them.

My spouse hears these phrases as agreement and it only leads to further pain for me later when I say I didn't agree but I am told that I did agree.

Besides relieving yourself of the expectation of fixing all your relationship problems in one conversation, you also must let go of fixing your partner -- you can only control your own actions.

Yes, that is why I said I would like to learn the correct way to set up safe, healthy boundaries for myself. I can only control my own thoughts, beliefs, words, actions, and feelings. The boundaries are about my values, and how I will behave in situations which may come up.

Check out this Three-Minute Lesson on Ending Conflict..

I watched it. Thanks. I found the music very distracting.

Regarding the content:

1. I am not sure, due to my own severe mental illness, addiction and childhood abuse, that I can be the one to stop the cycle of conflict. I am trying to do so.

2. Identifying the words and actions which trigger me first.
Yes, this is my responsibility. The most triggering thing for me is when my spouse assumes that they can "drive me" as though I were their vehicle and they can make my body and mind do what they say. This triggers me because this is exactly what my mother did to me and my siblings as children. I remember thinking, when I lived with my family, how I felt as though I were a puppet with many strings, and that my mother was using the marionette bars to dictate all of my movements. The pain of enduring this for the first 20-ish years of my life is deeply ingrained in me. It's why sometimes I think I might be either BPD or npd too.

3. Visualize how I could better respond to the triggers.
For me, it is more of a "feeling-hearing" experience. I can close my eyes and go to my body and my "inner ear" to find how I could better respond to triggering situations.

4. Rehearse on my own.
If I can practice a more empathetic response to myself as thoughts, as spoken words and also write them down, then maybe I will be able to access them when conflicts arise again.

Let my partner know I hear them.
Yes, good point. My spouse does say that they feel invisible or unheard.

Form a habit of making sympathy, empathy and truth statements.
When I get hooked or triggered ("shenpa", I know I need to be present with myself, and take a moment to experience "space" within myself before I go off on another person. It's a struggle for me. It takes practice, too.

 

Are you able to take advantage of any 12 step recovery programs in your area?  They can be a huge help, since they combine teaching tools with in-person fellowship and support, and they are free.

WW

I have been participating in a 12 step recovery since the end of March this year. It is helpful. I have a sponsor. We just finished step 2. It's voice meetings, online.

It didn't occur to me to ask them for help with role-playing conversations or conflicts I have with my possibly BPD mate.

Thank you for the suggestions. I will focus on S.E.T. and finding and rehearsing less "hot" reactions for those times when my spouse and I are having a conflict. Because my loved one and I have such similar backgrounds and have to cope with similar issues within ourselves, I believe we are especially well suited to be able to relate to each other's struggles.

--"let go"

[pearlsw]

Hi letgo,

Impressed you are interested in self improvement - that's great!

While your partner is OCD and you say you intended this to desensitize, I have to say licking the garbage can, while it may be perfectly clean, sounds pretty extreme and not a measured approach. There is a bit of a shock/insult factor there in my reading of it.

I have met a couple people with serious cases of OCD and that seems downright scary to observe such a thing - especially if you have not been invited into this role of "desensitizer". Ya know?

Can you imagine a scaled back version of this that reads as less reactive or extreme?

Has your own mental health been diagnosed? What do you suspect the issues are for you? BPD, Bipolar, and Narcissism you suspect?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[letgo]

Hi letgo,

Impressed you are interested in self improvement - that's great!

While your partner is OCD and you say you intended this to desensitize, I have to say licking the garbage can, while it may be perfectly clean, sounds pretty extreme and not a measured approach. There is a bit of a shock/insult factor there in my reading of it.

I have met a couple people with serious cases of OCD and that seems downright scary to observe such a thing - especially if you have not been invited into this role of "desensitizer". Ya know?

Can you imagine a scaled back version of this that reads as less reactive or extreme?

Has your own mental health been diagnosed? What do you suspect the issues are for you? BPD, Bipolar, and Narcissism you suspect?

wishing you peace, pearl.

I will ask my spouse.

I'm diagnosed with bp. I suspect i may also have narcissistic personality, though i suppose BPD is possible. I will ask a psychiatrist to evaluate me for cluster B disorders.

 I am too afraid to ask my wife to have a psychiatrist do the same for her.

Thanks
--Letgo

[letgo]

August 4, 2018

I asked my wife how she felt when I licked the bottom rim of the trash can lid.

She said she felt horrible. She also said she thought I was crazy, and also thought that I was doing it to get back at her for spitting into the refrigerator. She saw it as an act of "tit-for-tat." I let her know that I'd forgotten about her doing that. I told her that I'd done it to try to get her to understand there was no danger. She did not experience it that way. I was wrong to believe that she would take it this way.

I tried to understand what was horrifying for her, but I wasn't able to understand. Eventually, she told me she was still waiting for me to get sick from licking it, even though this conversation took place more than 24 hours later. So after I asked if she was afraid I would get sick, she said she was concerned for me. This felt false to me. If that were true, why not lead off with saying that? Being concerned about my well-being was an after-thought, after I had prompted her. If I had gotten sick, she would only care that it had inconvenienced her, and she would not have had sympathy or empathy about my being sick; rather she would have blamed me.

The virtue of my attempting helping her to feel safer in our world was completely lost on her. I felt no fear. The trash can lid was not fatally disgustingly filled with germs, it was completely safe. I thought my lack of fear and the presentation of facts could help her re-establish the reality of that there was actually no danger. I thought I could bring her back to reality from her OCD-induced delusions. I was mistaken to think this.

Quite the opposite, in fact. By telling me she thought *I* was the one who was crazy, she let me know two things 1) she would rather stay in her self-induced prison of false terrors and 2) if I try to pull her out of it, she will gaslight me and tell me *I* am the one who is crazy. In saying this, she has pushed me farther away than I was when I was in full-blown addiction.

Because I have bipolar disorder, I have insecurities about my perceptions and beliefs about reality. I worked hard for many years using Dr. David Burns' cognitive behavior techniques to get out of a place of deep, dark, suicidal depression. It took incredible courage and patience to do this for myself. However, my spouse has no sympathy or empathy about my insecurity in this area. In fact, she would rather invalidate me, and tell me she thinks I'm crazy, than admit her own perceptions of reality are false. She will not play by fair rules.

Her perceptions of reality and truth are very different from mine. I wanted my wife to feel safer. I took a very small risk to *jolt her out of her false reality* of "danger everywhere, fear, fear, fear" into a reality of having the freedom of "no, it really is not that dangerous. I can see my spouse's confident actions proving my fears are false." It isn't wrong for me to have the desire to end her suffering. I feel pain because she feels intense anxiety so much of the time. But I was wrong to try to "fix" her perception of reality or her beliefs. I can't fix her. I have to let go of this. I have to respect that she will make herself crazy, and let her do that to herself. For me to do anything else would be invalidating her, and maybe even feel like gaslighting to her. I can't help her, and I can't save her. It breaks my heart to have to admit I can't save her from herself.

We are both doing the same thing... .we try to force the other person to perceive the world the way we perceive it, and force the other person to believe the world is we believe it is, not as they believe it is.

Every single day, my wife trys to force her perceptions of dangers, germs, and chaos on me. No wonder I've gotten so seriously depressed and out of touch with reality. I have not had the strength to stop her from doing this. Her forcefulness of making me change my perceptions and beliefs to match hers is a never-ending brutal assault on my mind, heart and spirit. I am forced to doubt my senses, doubt my thoughts, doubt my memories, doubt my beliefs, and doubt my sanity. She invalidates me at every turn, and then *she* tells *me* that *I* am the one who invalidates her! Living with someone who has disappeared into their OCD horror show and who keeps trying to yank me into it is incredibly debilitating.

Now it is crystal clear to me why I buried myself in computer gaming for the last four years or so, and why I was a workaholic for 21 years before that. I needed to exist in a reality which she could not define or touch. Even if it was a false reality, at least it was one of my own making.

I feel enraged about her continuous onslaught on my inner being, and my outer words and deeds. But, no one will believe me that this is happening, except others who have also experienced something very similar to this.

At this moment, I don't feel courageous. I don't want to try to invalidate her reality for her anymore. I am afraid to stay in the relationship. I'm afraid I will lose my mind again if I stay. I don't know what to do.

I don't believe she is consciously manipulating me into all this doubting, driving me away, and trying to control my reality. I believe it is based on some deep unconscious needs she has. She isn't evil, she's not a monster, and doesn't intend to create misery for me.

To protect myself, I will no longer agree to her perceptions of danger, or that *I* am the one who is crazy. I don't have her perceptions and fears, and *I*WILL*NOT*ACCEPT*THEM*AS*REALITY*. I can't indulge and coddle her and the OCD-induced "reality" she lives in.

For my own sake, I must stop her from invalidating my perceptions, beliefs and understanding of reality. I know my understanding of reality is not 100% accurate, but it's far more accurate than hers. It is *vital* that my grasp on reality become more accurate, not less accurate. She unintentionally seeks to corrupt my understanding, so it becomes less sane and accurate.

I will try to find compassion because she did not ask to be abused as a child, to have OCD, to become an addict, or to have the borderline personality traits that she has. What is it like for her to live with all of that? She is not capable of supporting my efforts to become more sane because she is lost in her own delusional version of reality.

But, the forceful stripping away of my more accurate perceptions of the world feels like a violation, a sort of "mind-rape." I can't let it continue. I feel like my heart is breaking.

 She is not a sadist. She is sick. I am powerless to heal her sickness. I need to find the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. Her sicknesses are among them. I need to find the courage to change the things I can. I am in the process of finding the wisdom to know the difference.
 
 --letgo
 

[once removed]

To protect myself, I will no longer agree to her perceptions of danger, or that *I* am the one who is crazy. I don't have her perceptions and fears, and *I*WILL*NOT*ACCEPT*THEM*AS*REALITY*. I can't indulge and coddle her and the OCD-induced "reality" she lives in.

fair enough. certainly, you shouldnt do those things.

letgo, do you think that the trash can incident was an emotionally grounded or mature reaction? what are your feelings about it?

[pearlsw]

Hi letgo,

Here are some random thoughts I had and wanted to share. If it helps great, if not toss it! It's your life.

August 4, 2018

I asked my wife how she felt when I licked the bottom rim of the trash can lid.

She said she felt horrible. She also said she thought I was crazy, and also thought that I was doing it to get back at her for spitting into the refrigerator. She saw it as an act of "tit-for-tat." I let her know that I'd forgotten about her doing that. I told her that I'd done it to try to get her to understand there was no danger. She did not experience it that way. I was wrong to believe that she would take it this way.

I think this is an important insight.

I tried to understand what was horrifying for her, but I wasn't able to understand. Eventually, she told me she was still waiting for me to get sick from licking it, even though this conversation took place more than 24 hours later. So after I asked if she was afraid I would get sick, she said she was concerned for me. This felt false to me. If that were true, why not lead off with saying that? Being concerned about my well-being was an after-thought, after I had prompted her. If I had gotten sick, she would only care that it had inconvenienced her, and she would not have had sympathy or empathy about my being sick; rather she would have blamed me.

This reads to me as unfair expectations here. No reason for her to lead off in a certain way. And no, she may not have cared if you were sick, she may have just wondered if you would get sick. Two different things. And let's take a big step back and recognize that she does care about you and your well-being. Maybe you want it to be expressed differently, but all this stuff about after-thought, prompts, is, speaking as a tired, middle-aged woman here, not worth splitting hairs over.

If you want her to show care for you then ask for it, don't assume it does not exist. It exists. Just say "I would like you to show more concern for me. Can you do X please?" You say how you feel/what you want/and offer a suggestion. See how that goes.

My SO shows care for me by taking out the trash, coincidentally enough. Just that. I ask, and he does it. He's trained himself to do it fast and with a happy spirit about it. There are a lot of things he does not get quite right, but by praising him for this he is so happy and feels so good doing it I think. It makes me happy too.

I thought I could bring her back to reality from her OCD-induced delusions. I was mistaken to think this.

This reads as a really big overstep. It's great to learn from a mistake!

Quite the opposite, in fact. By telling me she thought *I* was the one who was crazy, she let me know two things 1) she would rather stay in her self-induced prison of false terrors and 2) if I try to pull her out of it, she will gaslight me and tell me *I* am the one who is crazy. In saying this, she has pushed me farther away than I was when I was in full-blown addiction.

She is not in a self-induced prison of false terrors. Her problems and perceptions are real. She is not making it up and it is not easy to live with. Leave it to her doctors, I'd advise, you cannot take on this role. And maybe read up on her illness so you can find more compassion in your heart for it.

Because I have bipolar disorder, I have insecurities about my perceptions and beliefs about reality. I worked hard for many years using Dr. David Burns' cognitive behavior techniques to get out of a place of deep, dark, suicidal depression. It took incredible courage and patience to do this for myself. However, my spouse has no sympathy or empathy about my insecurity in this area. In fact, she would rather invalidate me, and tell me she thinks I'm crazy, than admit her own perceptions of reality are false. She will not play by fair rules.

There is no reason to compare between you two. Each of you have issues and love, compassion, and understanding will take you farther than judgement.

I applaud your courage and patience in working on yourself - it is not easy! Teach each other how to validate each other if you can. It is just a technique, it is worth a try to learn and apply it.

We are both doing the same thing... .we try to force the other person to perceive the world the way we perceive it, and force the other person to believe the world is we believe it is, not as they believe it is.

Exactly. Brilliant insight here!

Every single day, my wife trys to force her perceptions of dangers, germs, and chaos on me. No wonder I've gotten so seriously depressed and out of touch with reality. I have not had the strength to stop her from doing this. Her forcefulness of making me change my perceptions and beliefs to match hers is a never-ending brutal assault on my mind, heart and spirit. I am forced to doubt my senses, doubt my thoughts, doubt my memories, doubt my beliefs, and doubt my sanity. She invalidates me at every turn, and then *she* tells *me* that *I* am the one who invalidates her! Living with someone who has disappeared into their OCD horror show and who keeps trying to yank me into it is incredibly debilitating.

Mental illnesses are extremely challenging for the people who have them, and for the people who love the people who have them. Try to depersonalize if you can. It is the illness here doing this, she is not actually trying to destroy, though believe me, I know it feels that way. I live with a similar struggle every single day. It is HARD!

Now it is crystal clear to me why I buried myself in computer gaming for the last four years or so, and why I was a workaholic for 21 years before that. I needed to exist in a reality which she could not define or touch. Even if it was a false reality, at least it was one of my own making.

Okay. So now what? More gaming? Or other healthy ways to help you stay grounded while having a mentally ill partner? What is the healthy answer here?

I feel enraged about her continuous onslaught on my inner being, and my outer words and deeds. But, no one will believe me that this is happening, except others who have also experienced something very similar to this.

We know how hard it is to be in relationships with people with mental health issues. What is a healthy way to manage your anger?

She is not a sadist. She is sick. I am powerless to heal her sickness. I need to find the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. Her sicknesses are among them. I need to find the courage to change the things I can. I am in the process of finding the wisdom to know the difference.

You are doing an admirable job under very difficult circumstances. You have a lot of insight. There is work ahead, but you already have a lot to be proud of!

with compassion, pearl.

[Radcliff]

letgo,

It's been a little while since you last posted.  How are you doing?

WW

[letgo]

letgo,

It's been a little while since you last posted.  How are you doing?

WW

I'm still here. Struggle with depression a bunch. Trying to become more aware of my own side of the fence, and relate with less reactivity.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

Is there anything we can help with?

[Radcliff]

letgo, to help unlock the power of the support you can get here to make your situation better, how about telling us about a painful situation or behavior that keeps happening, and we can help you find some tools to make it better?

WW

[pearlsw]

I'm still here. Struggle with depression a bunch. Trying to become more aware of my own side of the fence, and relate with less reactivity.

Hi letgo,

Sorry to hear you are struggling with depression! Many members here are.

I know it is not always easy to manage our own emotions and reactivity.

Can you describe how you do this? Or perhaps some successes you may have had with it?

warmly, pearl.

[letgo]

I take medications to help me manage mood swings, depression, racing thoughts, insomnia, mania and other BP symptoms. Regular sleep helps a lot. Disrupted sleep makes things a lot worse.

I do deep breathing. I write. I try to catch myself as soon as I feel anger, and find a way to examine it on my own rather than blow up on the spot. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I am also working a 12 step program.

I am considering talking with SO about a boundary regarding being told my own thoughts, preferences, feelings,  etc.

I believe each person has the right to define their own inner reality.  If I'm in a conversation with someone who denies my inner reality,  I need to respond in a way which clarifies the boundary without escalating tensions.

Another thing which happens is that I get blamed by my SO when they harm me or damage my property. I think it is projection of SO's own feelings of guilt, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure about how to set that boundary yet.

[Radcliff]

OK, so you are interested in working on setting boundaries on the following three things:

1. Being told what you think
2. When she breaks your things
3. When she harms you

Let me suggest that you invert the order:

1. When she harms you
2. When she breaks your things
3. Being told what you think

Take a look at this page on setting boundaries.

Can you give us more detail about what you mean about her harming you?

WW

[letgo]

OK, so you are interested in working on setting boundaries on the following three things:

1. Being told what you think
2. When she breaks your things
3. When she harms you

Let me suggest that you invert the order:

1. When she harms you
2. When she breaks your things
3. Being told what you think

Take a look at this page on setting boundaries.

Can you give us more detail about what you mean about her harming you?

WW

Only recently there were two incidents when my partner harmed me, accidentally, I believe - door slammed on arm, car trunk lid slammed on fingers. I think these were due to my partner feeling tired and disoriented.

My partner does not usually break my things. On the occassions when this happens, she pays for repairs or replacements. I used to throw dishes, break glass, etc but it has been a very long time - decades. Having ground rules around this would be helpful.

It's the other stuff that happens which creates the most misery for me.
1. I can't tell my spouse what I really feel, because of intense emotional outbursts that can follow (usually rage)

2. Being expected to agree to whatever my spouse thinks is needed. Actions to be taken. Joint responsibilities. Since OCD comes into play, I rarely perceive these things as necessary.

3. When my spouse insists that situations are too dangerous, harmful, disorganized, messy, dirty, etc and I am not given the respect to decide what my own perceptions of the situations would be

4. Being in a position of either having to reassure my spouse about whether something is really a problem, or even worse, when I'm not believed when I express that it is not really a problem. My spouse will drag me into hours worth of "crisis-handling" when nothing was really wrong in the first place. Sometimes it is about what is going on in the environment. Unfortunately, sometimes it is about our dog's health. Recently, our dog supposedly ate a mushroom. Doctors called, poison control hotline called, vomitting induced, dog brought to the doctor and held overnight for observation.  I sometimes wonder if there is a disorder similar to hypochondria, but projected onto dependent family members, like pets. The amount of money we've spent on Veterinary bills is outrageous, and far more than I would spend. We are in a lot of debt because of it.

My spouse is responsible for own OCD and I hate getting sucked into any of these issues, in any manner.

5. Being trapped in a car with my spouse. Sometimes, it is road-rage episodes, with my car being driven. It doesn't matter though which car, when I realize that an uncontrollable emotional outburst is happening and I am powerless to do anything in the situation except to say, PLEASE CALM DOWN! as forcefully as I can. There are other times when "discussions" happen in the car, and I am literally physically trapped in a situation where I can't enforce no-contact. There have been a small handful of times in the relationship when I've either opened the car door to get out, or have actually gotten out of the car, wherever we were.

6. A small handful of times when I've said I'm leaving, but I get charmed back in. There are blindingly fast, head-spinning changes in behaviors displayed.  All of a sudden, my spouse no longer has 99% of the issues she previously had with me. I'm no longer bad, bad, bad, wrong, wrong, wrong about almost everything and everyone.

7. The unasked-for caretaking. I don't want my food bought or prepared for me, unless I ask for it. My spouse was extremely anxious recently and repeatedly asked me to call my psychiatrist to get a haliperidol refill. I said "No" each time, since I've not needed it in well over a decate. Fiinally I gave up, saying, "If you really think I need it, why don't _you_ call up and get it." And she did that. Then, more then two weeks later, she tells me that my psychiatrist wants her to be at my next appointment. Talk about stepping all over boundaries. I hate being treated as though I am a child who can't take are of myself.

8. Lack of boundaries. If my spouse feels or thinks something, or makes a decision, or perceives something a certain way, there isn't any opening for me to express and have myself heard when my feelings, thoughts, beliefs, decisions, or perceptions are different. I feel like a broken record, "We are different people, you know." By the time my spouse is done saying and doing things, I can't even remember what my differences about these things had been. I am constantly admonished for interrupting her. Sometimes I get pen and paper so I can write down my thoughts so I don't lose them when it is finally my turn to speak.

I'm miserable. I need a face-to-face support group. I am starting to feel hopelessly trapped again, and that scares me because that can lead to severe depression in which I have suicidal thoughts and feelings. There are even times when I've wondered if my "bipolar disorder" diagnosis is correct. I sometimes believe that 95% of my own "mental illness" is actually what I use to cope with all of the craziness I've been exposed to all my life. Craziness inducing craziness.

What would I be like if I lived by myself and I were no longer submerged and drowning in this crazy-making environment that I'm in? What would my life be like? Would I still have severe depression? Would I feel like I'm going crazy? Would I be able to handle making all the decisions I would need to make for myself? Would I feel tremendously relieved from not being invalidated so much of the time? Would I finally know my own thoughts, feelings, beliefs, attitudes, values, etc if I weren't being interfered with so voraciously every day? Would I stop feeling so afraid all the time?

[pearlsw]

Hi letgo,

There is a lot going on here and I can't touch on all of it in one post, hopefully others will join us. But I think an overarching theme here is acceptance of your partner's OCD. I know it must be hard to live with someone with severe OCD. I hear that you feel it messes with reality for you because you can't share the kinds of concerns she has. That must be extremely difficult!

I am reminded of a visit to a friend of a friend's once whose partner had OCD. She had a giant pile of papers as high as the ceiling that could not be thrown away. Another room was filled with boxes that could not be thrown away. This took up a lot of space and the home was filled with tension and a heavy sense of sadness and shame. I know there were many, many more issues involved and their relationship was under a great deal of strain. I can imagine just a bit of what you face regularly.

It sounds like you need a support group or a therapist to help with just this alone because the OCD isn't going anywhere.

Do you really want to leave or are you fantasizing about it? If you wanted this, would there be a way to get a break, to test your theory?

wishing you peace, pearl.