Two months, and I'm still conflicted, and realizing there's more to it

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I've got a rather odd perspective on porn because when I was a college student, my now-ex-BPDh and I were traveling. We visited his old buddy who was living in a palatial house in the San Francisco Bay area with his girlfriend. The morning after we arrived, a film company showed up and began setting up lights and cameras. His girlfriend had rented out the house for a porn video shoot. As I ate breakfast, I watched porn being filmed just a few feet away.

If you already think porn objectifies women, what I saw was far worse than what I assume was the finished product. The production I saw seemed targeted at a particular audience--middle aged men--that described the director and the cameraman.

I'm reminded of the metaphor--"Law and sausage are two things you do not want to see being made." (Sorry for the pun, but I'd also add porn to that list.)

[Cat Familiar]

I've got a rather odd perspective on porn because when I was a college student, my now-ex-BPDh and I were traveling. We visited his old buddy who was living in a palatial house in the San Francisco Bay area with his girlfriend. The morning after we arrived, a film company showed up and began setting up lights and cameras. His girlfriend had rented out the house for a porn video shoot. As I ate breakfast, I watched porn being filmed just a few feet away.

If you already think porn objectifies women, what I saw was far worse than what I assume was the finished product. The production I saw seemed targeted at a particular audience--middle aged men--that described the director and the cameraman.

I'm reminded of the metaphor--"Law and sausage are two things you do not want to see being made." (Sorry for the pun, but I'd also add porn to that list.)

[Cat Familiar]

Oh and when I said that SC is "entitled" to be disgusted by porn and her husband is "entitled" to use it--I have to say, "entitled" is a poor choice of words. Sorry.

I think we all have free will and things start going south in relationships when we try and control our partner's behavior. So if SC's husband is trying to get SC to change her mind about porn, it's the same as SC trying to make him give up his habit.

[formflier]

I think Notwendy has great wisdom is suggesting putting these types of discussions on hold until face to face AND (I'll add) until the "temperature" of the relationship is such that you can focus on UNDERSTANDING what he means you to understand and he can focus on understanding what you have to say.

So... .he sends you a video.  Why not ask "What do you want me to understand from this video?"  ... .then listen... .ask follow up questions... .about what he means... .not what you want him to mean... .or an article says he means.

There is a relatively simple way to end all the speculation around the issue of porn in this relationship.  A conversation.

FF

[SweetCharlotte]

I think we all have free will and things start going south in relationships when we try and control our partner's behavior. So if SC's husband is trying to get SC to change her mind about porn, it's the same as SC trying to make him give up his habit.

Yes, you are right, CatFam, his porn use is a choice. It is a choice he has been making without my knowledge, and now I can't deny it any longer. He always knew that I find this habit disgusting and would not want to be with a man who does it. That's precisely why he hid it for as long as he could. Now that it is out of the bag for good, and as you say, I cannot change his behavior any more than he can change my feelings, I am dealing with a profound sense of loss and betrayal. We continue to be out of direct contact, and he continues without responding to my pleas for a conversation, which I would prefer to have in person with him. I feel so negated as a person that he does not think enough of me to have a dialogue. It's like he is making me feel what it is like to be a man with ED. He can't help the ED; he's been seeking medical help but to no avail, since Viagra doesn't agree with him (he has cardiovascular and G.I. concerns). But he can choose how he approaches the ED. He doesn't have to do it with porn. The porn also gratifies a certain wish to degrade women that is deep-seated with him, and comes out clearly when he speaks of his abusive long-deceased mother. So I have a feeling that even if the ED improved, he would still be hooked on porn.

[SweetCharlotte]

NotWendy, we do discuss sexual matters in a more or less immediate sense (what we like and don't like, what just happened, etc.) when we are together. However, this is a long-distance r/s, and we have not been together since the current problem flared up. In addition, this has to do with a whole side of himself that my uBPDh had kept hidden, and which also explains why he wanted a long-distance r/s in the first place. I tried to move to his city by applying for a job there, and when I wasn't hired, he called it "a blessing in disguise."

I thought that he/we were dealing with his growing ED okay. I was being patient, and he praised my tactfulness and respect in bed. But we never got to discuss his wish to escape from our sexual contact, because it happened so fast. It was a question of last weekend visit, he couldn't reach orgasm, then he evaded me on the last night to fall asleep early, then he started saying he didn't want to come see me and I said Sorry but okay, then he said actually he was coming and how come I was okay with his not coming (I thought he wasn't feeling well), then it was the texting argument on the train, when he said it was dirty for me to use the word vagina because my daughter might see it, then I said my daughter promised not to read my texts when she occasionally uses my phone (she has her own), then he texted me, "You are a fool," and I said I felt like I was living in "Lolita," and he said he was getting off the train and did so, and blocked me and cut me off. Three days later he wanted to reestablish contact, but the whole ordeal hurt me so much that I wasn't ready to do that. That is how I realized what is really happening and why I felt like I was the Shelley Winters character in Lolita. It wasn't because he is a pedophile per se, but I felt like I was being betrayed for some reason, and that his sexuality was not on the up-and-up. So not being in dialogue with him for a time has helped me to dispel the FOG, and see where I stand and what he has been doing. He never would have admitted this to me, though he was dropping subtle clues all the time.

As I said above to CatFam, I believe his porn use is part struggle with ED and part addiction/compulsion. The first few months of our r/s, we had phone sex regularly. Then it suddenly stopped, and he became much more sexually secretive. He probably went back into porn use at that point; he probably started after his first marriage disintegrated 15 years ago. So I believe it is very ingrained with him, and not only a result of ED.

[formflier]

 It is a choice he has been making without my knowledge, and now I can't deny it any longer.

 He probably went back into porn use at that point; he probably started after his first marriage disintegrated 15 years ago.  

What do you actually "know" about his porn use?  As he tells you about it or you have observed it.

How much of this is conjecture or connecting dots?

FF

[SweetCharlotte]

I've got a rather odd perspective on porn because when I was a college student, my now-ex-BPDh and I were traveling. We visited his old buddy who was living in a palatial house in the San Francisco Bay area with his girlfriend. The morning after we arrived, a film company showed up and began setting up lights and cameras. His girlfriend had rented out the house for a porn video shoot. As I ate breakfast, I watched porn being filmed just a few feet away.

If you already think porn objectifies women, what I saw was far worse than what I assume was the finished product. The production I saw seemed targeted at a particular audience--middle aged men--that described the director and the cameraman.

I'm reminded of the metaphor--"Law and sausage are two things you do not want to see being made." (Sorry for the pun, but I'd also add porn to that list.)

I love this vignette. I know that "conversion therapies" can be problematic, but maybe pornography use/addiction could be treated by having the patient watch a porn shoot like the one you describe. Plus, I'm sure there are many that are worse, involving trafficked "sex slaves" and/or minors. They would see that this is not a victimless vice.

[Cat Familiar]

Something for porn aficionados to keep in mind: that is someone's daughter; that is someone's son. Perhaps it could even be your daughter one day, should she get into financial trouble and make a series of poor choices.

I haven't personally seen much porn and I understand about consenting adults engaging in activities of their own choosing. What I've noticed in what I saw is that it was targeted toward men's arousal, not women's. Maybe that's different nowadays.

But what I saw filmed was explicitly directed by the very unattractive middle-aged director, down to every micro movement. The actors were merely robots acting out his fantasy. That was enough to turn me off to porn. But again, maybe it's different--I've heard that women, like Stormy Daniels, are directing it now.

[Notwendy]

I don't like porn but it seems to be available despite the concerns about it as far as relating to women and relationships. Because it is so available, it becomes something we need to address in a relationship.

Maybe the affects of watching are similar to alcohol. Some people don't drink at all. Some people can have an occasional drink and take it or leave it, and then some people can't resist it and overuse it or become addicted to it and bring ruin to themselves and their families. I don't think alcohol has the same exploitation aspect of porn, but it could be potentially destructive. Making alcohol illegal didn't work and I would expect it wouldn't work for porn either.

My own aversion to porn is due to the degrading aspects but also probably influenced by my own background. When the movie "50 Shades of Gray "came out, I knew I couldn't see it- somehow I knew I would find it to be disturbing. I have not been overtly sexually abused as a child,  but I was emotionally abused, and so reading or watching a situation where someone is being dominated is disturbing to me.  I would find these actions very disturbing if my H did them to me.

It is also possible that a man who was abused/controlled/dominated by parents as a child might find some kind of gratification in these acts.

This is not to judge or vilify anyone who has ever looked at porn- that's probably almost everyone. That would be like vilifying anyone who has a drink. However, just like there are some people who are prone to using alcohol in a destructive manner, there could also be people who do this with porn.  I also bring this up to consider that for some of us, our feelings about porn may also be influenced by our own experiences. Being the recipient of "acting out abuse" may feel revolting to someone who has experienced real -life abuse.

Charlotte- maybe this idea will help you in your discussions with your H. What he did is revolting to you, but he may have taken it as he is revolting to you. There is a lot of emotion in this topic for both of you. I hope there is a way for the two of you to discuss this- whether or not you choose to stay together- for some kind of mutual understanding of what happened. It may take talking in the presence of a therapist.

[Cat Familiar]

Notwendy brings up some great points. And like with other addiction patterns, it can become a substitute for intimacy with a partner.

Perhaps similar to individuals who become obsessed with computer gaming, there are some neurological changes that accompany a porn addiction, which could make it even harder to overcome.

The question to me that SweetCharlotte needs to ask herself is: "Is this a deal breaker or not?"

[SweetCharlotte]

... .Being the recipient of "acting out abuse" may feel revolting to someone who has experienced real -life abuse.

Charlotte- maybe this idea will help you in your discussions with your H. What he did is revolting to you, but he may have taken it as he is revolting to you. There is a lot of emotion in this topic for both of you. I hope there is a way for the two of you to discuss this- whether or not you choose to stay together- for some kind of mutual understanding of what happened. It may take talking in the presence of a therapist.

Thank you, Notwendy and CatFam—as you and others have encouraged me to open a dialogue with him about our feelings, I sent him an email asking whether this was his intention in sending me the link to the satirical porn video. In response, he has retreated farther into his shell. Now he does not want any more emails from me. So he does consider my wish to even discuss sexual matters to be an attack on his sense of self and masculinity.

I'm familiar with this pattern from years gone by. He waits until I miss him enough that I will take him back no-questions-asked. That way, I will be his submissive b*#@h again, in bed and out. This must make him feel more manly, and with his ED worsening (though he is receiving medical care for it; it's not always curable since Viagra-type meds disagree with him), he must get meaner to me to get the same effect as before. He does not want a conversation that would delve into his feelings, because he does not discuss those in depth except in anger, which is not productive. And seeing a therapist together is out-of-the-question for him. He does not trust them, and does not think that he needs one. He last saw a mental health professional when he was in his 20s (30 years ago) and had a real psychotic breakdown, failing out of college and losing his full scholarship to a top university, which was a huge blow. He now accuses this therapist not only of not helping him at all, but of stealing his life story by telling it to her daughter, who then published it as a book. I feel that this has got to be an incredible delusion of his.

Since I am tired of this pattern, and the codependency associated with it on my part that always leads back into pain and suffering, I'm going to try to stay NC and see my own therapist. I am just concerned because he has in the past (3.5 years ago, the last time I saw him) counseled me toward staying with my uBPDh because, "let's face it, you love this guy." Sigh.

[Notwendy]

We go into therapy vulnerable and seeking help. I would be concerned if a T advised me to stay or to leave. What I hope T would do would help me with arriving at my own decision. If you feel your T is encouraging you to stay and you are uncertain, bring that up to him. Another choice is to find a new T, but that takes time, and work and if you feel comfortable with this one, then you can bring up the fact that you feel encouraged to make a choice you don't feel comfortable with.

Your H has a behavior that has worked for him in the past: refusing to address an issue and then, waiting until you are missing him and upset enough to just go back without discussion. This leaves issues unresolved for you. The co-dependency action on your part is to accept him back to relieve your own emotional pain. The "cure" is to be able to manage your hurt feelings on your own- and then, any decision to stay with him as is or the not stay will be done from a position of thinking clearly and not in emotional pain. For your H, if his main relationship tool works - he's going to use it until it works or he figures out it isn't going to work and then has to decide to try something else or not. He's learned that what he does works- so why would he do something different? Your task- if you want a change in this pattern is to change your part in it.

[SweetCharlotte]

We go into therapy vulnerable and seeking help. I would be concerned if a T advised me to stay or to leave. What I hope T would do would help me with arriving at my own decision. If you feel your T is encouraging you to stay and you are uncertain, bring that up to him. Another choice is to find a new T, but that takes time, and work and if you feel comfortable with this one, then you can bring up the fact that you feel encouraged to make a choice you don't feel comfortable with.

Your H has a behavior that has worked for him in the past: refusing to address an issue and then, waiting until you are missing him and upset enough to just go back without discussion. This leaves issues unresolved for you. The co-dependency action on your part is to accept him back to relieve your own emotional pain. The "cure" is to be able to manage your hurt feelings on your own- and then, any decision to stay with him as is or the not stay will be done from a position of thinking clearly and not in emotional pain. For your H, if his main relationship tool works - he's going to use it until it works or he figures out it isn't going to work and then has to decide to try something else or not. He's learned that what he does works- so why would he do something different? Your task- if you want a change in this pattern is to change your part in it.

 
Thanks, notwendy: this advice will see me through the difficult passage that lies ahead.

[Notwendy]

Keep us posted! 

[flourdust]

Hi, SC, hope you are doing well. Have you had a chance to see the therapist? Do you think the upcoming holidays will have an affect on your relationship?

[SweetCharlotte]

Hi, Flourdust,
I'm seeing my T mid-week. That was the soonest he could get me in.
UBPDh is sending me an "impersonal email" every other day—a news link, for example. I'm not responding because last week he told me not to email him anymore.
He still has me blocked on the phone, phone apps, and social media.
I assume that, with the holidays coming, he will gradually get back in touch, staying low profile to avoid in-depth discussion. If I show a wish to discuss feelings, he will retreat. I assume that he would rather visit me for his Christmas break, but only if we can have a "let's pretend nothing happened."
I'm not willing to go back to walking on eggshells. I'm really no good at distinguishing between radical acceptance and walking on eggshells anyway. So, still not sure how I am going to proceed.
Thanks for asking,
SweetCharlotte

[flourdust]

I'm glad to hear you've got that appointment coming up. This may be a good question to bounce off your therapist ... .figuring out how to allow re-engagement and under what terms ... .and how to communicate and enforce that effectively. What do you think?

[SweetCharlotte]

That will be a good idea for next time, flourdust. I didn't get to discuss the r/s in depth this time, because it was my first time back in 3.5 years. I was bringing the T up to date on issues involving my employment (being put on an independent assignment for lower pay, losing my administrative post/stipend to a rival who had been badmouthing & sabotaging me during the couple years that I had it). We will discuss my options on the r/s next week, but for now he stated that, although he is generally in favor of couples working it out, he thought that our estrangement had been going on for a long time, with an impasse that is unlikely to change for the better since my H is not receptive to open communication. The T encouraged me to continue the estrangement and consider formalizing it with a legal separation or divorce. He cautioned me that while I am in NC with my uBPDh, the latter could be accumulating debts for which I would be responsible.

I didn't even get to mention that I stopped drinking a few days ago, which gives me a lot more energy. I had become dependent on throwing back more than a couple each evening to cushion the pain of the loss of my promotion at work. Having grown up abused by an alcoholic mother with a PD or schizophrenia, uBPDh is sensitive to me when I am drinking to excess. On some level I'm sure he could sense that I was rather tipsy when I made the "Lolita reference" that provoked his train ride turn-around and started the current NC period. However, even when I am 100% sober, he does not permit r/s discussions or negotiation of any sort. He is an autocrat in the guise of a victim.

[flourdust]

I'm glad you're engaging with your T and bringing him up to speed. These things do take time, so it's good you're planning to continue to meet with him.

And  on cutting back on the drinking before it becomes a problem! Go you!