The worst feeling is feeling hopeless

[Penny2018]

Feeling hopeless, have been in a depression regarding my daughter. She is 18, lives with us, works a part-time job and has Borderline Personality Disorder and BiPolar, she is on 200 mg of Lamictil. She refuses to go to college or vocational school right now.

After a horrible breakup with her boyfriend in September, she has been very argumentative, irritable, rude, more so than normal. I see glimpses of the girl I love but mostly, my husband and son want nothing to do with her because she is terribly disrespectful.

We have certain house rules that she is refusing to follow, our biggest disagreement is that we want her home by midnight on the weekends but she wants to stay out all night. WE KNOW she is out at over 21 clubs and has no business being there.  I told her the other day to come home on time and she screamed at me and turned into someone I barely recognize. I said if she didn't follow our rules, she'd have to find another place to live.

She threatened to live with her drug dealer (I didn't know she had one?), become a stripper, shoot heroin, live in her car (which we own and let her use for work) move away and never see us again. She glared at me for several minutes with a weird look in her eye. She has been wearing a long black wig and looks ridiculous so there she is, glaring behind the strands of synthetic hair. There will be a consequence if you don't come home on time, I said. But she said she didn't care. She was going to do what she wanted because going out is the only thing that makes her happy. And when she got home the next day, I informed her the consequence was that she could ONLY use the car for work purposes. She started screaming at me and demanded that I drive her to Starbucks since from now on, I'd be her personal  Uber. I wouldn't and this brought on an hour of her yelling and carrying on until she told me "SHUT THE F*** UP!"

There is NOTHING I can say or do to get her to comply with our rules. I was reading about emotional dysregulation and that seems to be her. She has always been very difficult and defiant. Diagnosed with early-onset bipolar, she has been on various medications and seen therapists and psychiatrists.

My husband who is stubborn and hard headed, has absolutely had it with her. My son, who is 20, cannot stand to be around her. She will say terrible things one day and the next act like nothing is wrong. I have been struggling so much and the stress is wearing me down.  I look to the future and feel hopeless.

I'd like her to go to a residential treatment center for BPD, bipolar, mood etc. but she refuses. Unless, as she said, "It's a five-star resort!" She laughs when I bring it up and says, "You're not getting rid of me."

I want to stay in bed all day. Every single day brings new drama, an argument, disruption in the family.  I just want peace. Normal family issues. It's too much. What can I do? HELP.

Feeling helpless and hopeless.
Penny

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[once removed]

hi Penny2018, and

im glad that you reached out, and i hope that youll stick around and make yourself at home as part of the family here. everyone here will tell you that a strong support system is critical.

I wouldn't and this brought on an hour of her yelling and carrying on until she told me "SHUT THE F*** UP!"

this is hard, and its painful. its a battle of wills, and no one wants to be engaged in that with their daughter.

things can get better, Penny. it wont be easy, but it will be worthwhile.

i know you mention that shes always been difficult and defiant. when did the biggest problems start? what did things look like when she was younger?

[Penny2018]

From six months on, she was difficult. I thought she was just a "spirited" or "intense" baby. Later I believed it was Oppositional Defiance.

I brought her to UCLA medical center and one of the top child psychiatrists met with her and determined it was early onset bipolar. She was put on Risperdal which took the edge off, but then she became more and more moody and disrespectful as she got older. She was on Topamax, Prozac, many others that made her feel weird or gain weight.

Every time she gets sick, it's like the end of the world. I had to bring her to the ER twice in one month because she was so ill and had me convinced something awful was going on. It was nothing both times.

She loves drama and attention, likes a good argument, looks at our rules as challenges. I wish I knew what would help her because things are getting worse.

[once removed]

She loves drama and attention, likes a good argument, looks at our rules as challenges. I wish I knew what would help her because things are getting worse.

it sounds that way, for sure.

this will take some work, and some out of the box thinking. she responds to threats with threats of her own. she has a meltdown with any consequence.

when she was yelling and cursing at you after you restricted the car, how did you respond?

[babyoctopus]

Sounds very similar to what we are experiencing with 18 y.o. DD.
Quit school, no job, moody, met online, bad 'boyfriend' who is clearly using her, smokes pot, quite her meds,  disrespectful, mean to sibling, stays home all day, in bed , complains about being overweight but does nothing to get healthy, blames everything on me.
Cries so much, shes so depressed, my heart breaks for her, don't know what to do.
Starting dbt next week, but once a week seems so inadequate for what she is facing.

[bldrmama]

Hello Penny2018.
I have no ideas or strategies. I can just relate, and my heart breaks for you (and so many of us). I can relate to so many of the things you are sharing.
Hopelessness is my most dreaded feeling and I've been deep in that feeling this week in particular. Deep care for yourself (doesn't change your kiddo's experience/outbursts/drama/trauma), just for you. That's what I've prescribed myself this week... .I can get so very exhausted and exasperated with the hopelessness (there are plenty of "data points" to prove my point about why i'm hopeless), typically put myself last and stay exhausted too long. This week, I'm hoping to rebuild my self-kindness.  What do you do to care for yourself? What might be possible in the midst of the intensity and upheaval?

[Horace]

Dear Penny2018,
I only found this site a few days ago.  My DD is only 15, butte have been ‘walking on eggshells’ for at least 12 years.

I am also at an all time personal low.  But, I have taken the Advice on every website, in every book and article I’ve read and am at starting put my health and well being higher on list.

I encourage you to do the same. It really does help!  I think the shift for me away from the feelings of guilt and shame are key.  After years of hiding away the harsh reality of life inside our family; I have begun to share the truths.  For years I felt judged, and sharing with friends was unhelpful because they’d just suggest I become a ‘stricter parent!’ 
The confidence it takes to be a therapeutic parent , to constantly battle uneducated and unsolicited advice on where you’re going wrong, and to start fresh each day, hour and sometime minute as you and your BP ride the emotional rollercoaster... .those not familiar with it just cannot fathom!

But here is a community of people to share with and Who can help to support you in keeping yourself grounded in reality!

I am counting the days till her 18th birthday and working towards helping her accept responsibility and gain independence without feeling abandoned.  I will always love her, I will do my best to support her in managing herself.  But she will have to try, and fail, and sometimes succeed at being an adult.  I am hardening my resolve, but not my heart!

You are not alone.  And I hope you find strength and solace!

[Enabler]

Hi Penny2018,

Welcome to the family 

I checked out some of your other posts, the summer sounds like it's been pretty brutal for you and your family. Suicide threats and attempts must be devastating especially when it's the child you've nurtured and want the best for.

One part of your post stuck out to me. The part about her going out on the weekends and disobeying your house rules of being back by midnight. 2 things come to mind here, firstly, she is an adult, an emotionally disabled adult but she is an adult nonetheless. As an adult she gets to define her own values, she gets to determine which risks she exposes herself to and how she conducts herself. Our role as parents is to provide an age appropriate container with which to manage the transition between being a baby to an adult. She is now an adult (in the laws mind) so what if any container you should provide is debatable, one might consider that you shouldn't provide a container at all, but more determine how you support (provision of accommodation, the car, financial support)/interact with her. Defining rules by which she has to adhere to could be seen as misplaced... .defining your own rules/boundaries based on your own motivations might be more appropriate. Here's my mental gymnastics on it... .

- You object that she is out past midnight going to over 21's clubs... .would you object if she was out till 4am at a night time prayer meeting at the church? Therefore, is it the being out till after midnight or the over 21's clubs that you object to?
- Do you object because YOU worry what might happen to her? Therefore to salve your own emotions you wish to control her movements and have her back in your home safe so you can go to sleep? Are you projecting your own fears on to her?
- Are you defining what is right and wrong... .and for someone with BPD whether THEY are right or ALL WRONG
- Doing drugs is not right or wrong... .to some people, having a drink or even getting drunk is not right or wrong... .to some people.
- Would a different way to express your boundary be, "I like the door to be bolted when I go to bed for my own safety, I go to bed at midnight on the weekend, if you're going to stay out after midnight then please stay elsewhere." This isolates what you are going to do for you and your home, and she has the choice to be back... .or not. You are making no judgement on what she does or how that impacts you (since she is not responsible for you, only herself) only what you need to do for your own security.

Boundaries are a 2 way thing, knowing where you end and she 'should' begin is as important as knowing where she ends and you begin. Accepting that your blueprint for her may not be the same as her blueprint for her is part of this.

The second thing that spring to mind is a point that Bon Dobbs paints very nicely in his book "When Hope is not Enough". When she arrives home late having disobeyed your rules, how do you express yourself emotionally. He paints exactly the same picture where his daughter returns home late having not informed him and his wife, and he immediately rips into her with an outpouring of anger and dissatisfaction. He notes that on reflection this was a poor expression of his emotions. His actual emotion was worry and concern for her safety, him and his wife did not know what had happened to his daughter and they were afraid that something bad had happened... .so lets call the emotion Fear. Often when our pwBPD is afraid this manifests itself in anger, if when our loved ones return home and we have been afraid for them it manifests itself in anger... .see the commonality. Being grounded enough to say "Hey sweety, so glad you're back, we were so worried, is everything okay?" is a colossal task BUT... .which expression is an accurate expression of our primary emotion? How do you respond when she comes home late... .anger... .or relief that she's safe?

I know this is biblically tough for you at the moment, and you have my every sympathies, I have 3 young daughters and hope (optimistically) that I do not have to endure what you are going through. Although my points above may not be validating to you my intention is to seek another perspective on things, one where you might consider other less conventional paths and empathise with her viewpoint. This could reduce conflict, bringing her to a place where you can show her a better way.

I am very sure there are tons of nuances that add to your situation, not to mention the years of behaviours from your D, you other family members personalities and your experiences of 'how I was brought up'. Please see this as the start of a conversation, an alternative perspective rather than 'advice' or instruction from 'someone who doesn't get it'.

Bestest

Enabler x

[Penny2018]

Thank you all. I'm glad to know I'm not alone, sorry for those who are in my shoes as well.

I want to keep my daughter safe. Going over an over 21 club that has a reputation for being sleazy and attracting low lives is not where she should be, especially when she has poor impulse control.  I don't think I'd want her out all night even at a prayer meeting.

I am usually in bed when she comes home so I don't talk to her until the next morning. Often times, she'd say she's spending the night at a friends place so she doesn't come in late, then show up at 2 or 3 in the morning and say the sleeping over didn't work out.

Eventually, we caught on to her... .she had no intention of staying a friends house, she just wanted to be out late. Instead of allowing this to go on, we said, "no more sleepovers, please by home by midnight."  What she does until midnight, we have zero control over.

Sex trafficking is huge in this area and she was approached by someone at the club asking if she wanted to work as a prostitute. So I cannot in good conscience tell her its okay to be out all night.

[once removed]

Going over an over 21 club that has a reputation for being sleazy and attracting low lives is not where she should be, especially when she has poor impulse control. 
... .
Sex trafficking is huge in this area and she was approached by someone at the club asking if she wanted to work as a prostitute. So I cannot in good conscience tell her its okay to be out all night.

thats pretty understandable. you want your daughter to be safe.

shes also pretty rebellious... .how do you stop her?

[Enabler]

I want to keep my daughter safe.
... .

Often times, she'd say she's spending the night at a friends place so she doesn't come in late, then show up at 2 or 3 in the morning and say the sleeping over didn't work out.

Eventually, we caught on to her... .she had no intention of staying a friends house, she just wanted to be out late. Instead of allowing this to go on, we said, "no more sleepovers, please by home by midnight."  What she does until midnight, we have zero control over.

Hey Penny2018,

I read your post before going to bed last night and thought I would sleep on it before responding.

Firstly let me say that as a parent of 3 young girls I want nothing more than to keep my children safe. It hurts me every time something happens to them and the thought of something bad happening to them fills me with absolute dread.

These feelings are my feelings though, and my feelings are my responsibility. My mother doesn't drink, at all... .complete tea totaller, she doesn't get why anyone would ever want to drink alcohol let alone get drunk. Rationally she might well be correct and drinking might not be a sensible idea... .yet I still disagree with her. She's never going to understand why I like a drink and I'm unlikely to understand why she has such a problem with it. Over time we've learnt to respect each others opinions and respect each others rite to choice. You have developed an opinion about the over 21's club, maybe it's not the type of place you'd like to go and hang out, clearly and understandably it's not what you had in mind for your daughter in your blueprint for her, but maybe she has a different opinion of the club, and the risk of sex traffickers.

I highlighted some parts of your comments above and want to challenge you on your thought process. You would like to keep her safe... .can you actually achieve this though? Realistically she has to be the one that has to want to keep herself safe, and maybe she believes she is safe. Does your behaviour encourage her to come home and be safe or does it encourage her to lie and be more manipulative? We know that pwBPD traits have a skewed perception of  need vs wants. In her head she likely see's herself having a need to socialise, going to the club, and will likely see any attempts you make to stop that, an obstruction to her attaining her needs. Upping the stakes by attempting to control her movements is likely to reinforce this sense of being restrained and inhibited from attaining her needs. There is a sense that there's a 'us vs her' situation where you catch her doing things and maybe confront her with her shame and guilt. How do you think she feels when you do this?

Are you able to talk to her about the club and leave your assumptions aside. Could you ask her what the club is like, maybe even start the conversation with 'I think I have made some dumb parental assumptions about this club, you clearly enjoy it there'. Start a new path, one that isn't judgemental, one that parks your own assumptions and your own judgements. Are you able to re-position yourself and your husband into a position of acceptance? Acceptance doesn't mean enable, it just means you accept her choices, you respect her rite to choose and also to bare the consequences of those choices. Similarly, are you able to consider what elements of your reaction are to salve your own concerns rather than behaviours that actually contribute to increasing her safety.

Enabler

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[zachira]

It is so difficult not to spiral into feeling that things are hopeless when there seems to be no end in sight to your daughter's problems and how her behaviors are impacting the rest of the family. Some children are born with severe mental illness which is not the fault of the parents, and the challenges with a severely mentally ill child can seem never ending. I hope I will not offend you with what I am about to say as I am not trying to blame you in any way for your daughter's  problems. My intentions are to help, and I admire enormously all the effort you have put into helping your daughter. As a parent, it is normal to love your child more than your child loves you. The challenge is not to want things more for your child, than he/she does. This is particularly difficult when there is a problem with drugs and alcohol. Likely you are in cycle where you care more about your daughter's well being than she does. The challenge is to find a way to be less emotionally invested in her well being, which is extremely heartbreaking when you are her mother who loves and cares for her children more than anything in the world. Therapy can be helpful in establishing better emotional boundaries with your daughter, so it is more on her to take responsibility for the choices she makes in her life. Therapy can also be helpful in dealing with feelings of hopelessness, which is a major sign of depression. We are here to listen always, so keep us posted on how you are doing, and let us know how we can best help.

[loveandcare]

Just quickly - Enabler... .I sent you a private message, then saw that you weren’t accepting private messages... .so sorry!

OP: Your story could be ours. My heart breaks for you. I understand only too well the difficulty in establishing those boundaries. As a parent it has been the hardest thing to accept once our DD turned 18.

This is where we struggle too. I absolutely understand your pain. It has been the hardest thing to accept that at 18 she is legally allowed to make these choices for herself, because of her impulsivity, risk taking behaviors, drug use, promiscuity etc.

We decided about 3 months ago to establish the boundary mentioned above by Enabler: be home by midnight or the door will be locked. Come home before 8am, you’ll have to sleep outside. Needless to say, she chose to stay out all night, and in fact a couple of weeks ago she said she’d be back in the morning by 10.30am... .and we didn’t see her again for almost 2 weeks. But she’s 18, I have to accept she is free to make that choice.

Since drug use was involved, however, we said she could only live in our home again on the condition she had the shot that blocks the opiate receptors to help prevent drug abuse. Everything was fine, but of course the evening of the day she had it she wants to go out again and we had to allow it, even tho every fiber of my being was screaming “noo!”

Long story short she got attacked and robbed by a guy who stole her purse with her phone etc. This is where it is so difficult to have to stand back and bare witness to an absolute train wreck occurring.

i agree with Enabler though; as difficult as it is you have to step back and allow her to suffer the consequences of her poor choices. Its the hardest thing as a parent. I get it, I absolutely get it.

[Enabler]

Hi loveandcare,

Sorry you couldn’t PM me, that’s odd as I’ve received messages from others, maybe I’ve accidentally changed a setting or something. I’ll look into that, thanks for pointing it out.

Loveandcare, super sorry to hear of your struggles. Thanks for sharing your story and your attempts to enforce rules. What did you aim to achieve by the midnight rule? Did she change her behaviour after being robbed?

Enabler

[loveandcare]

Hi Enabler -

We enforced the midnight rule because otherwise we’d have to wait up all night until she got in because 1. I don’t trust her with a front door key (there’s a reason for that), 2. I don’t trust her to lock up the house when she gets in, which impacts our security.
Hence, be back or stay out, no in between.

She was robbed only a few days ago. She appears to have a kind of vague understanding that her choices put her in a very unsafe and vulnerable position, but on the whole she doesn’t really “get it”. She mainly blames the perpetrator, but fails to see her contribution. Kind of like, if you go into a dark alley at night with someone you don’t know other than that he is a druggie/dealer and place your handbag on the floor with valuables in it, you are pretty much asking for trouble. Does that excuse *his* behavior? No - of course not - but you certainly left yourself vulnerable.

[Enabler]

Massive siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh. Not judging good or bad, but given the set of circumstances you found/find yourself in i.e. not trustworthy to have a key/lock-up and preserving your own sanity with sleep, that sounds like a very reasonable rule to have. Have you made any attempts to use SET to connect her reality together i.e. you play with fire you're going to get burnt. My guess is that in many respects she knows full well that she in part created the situation that led to her being robbed, although maybe felt a bit embarrassed about her own naive behaviour. I think most people tend to have feelings of self blame after being mugged, which typically they beat themselves up about... ."I should have known better", "Why did take out that jewelry", "I knew I was in a dodgy area", a whole set of cognitive biases generally make us think that situations were more predictable than they were and that we should have known better... .ultimately that leads to shame. pwBPD struggle with shame or self blame... .so as you pointed out, the situation was all the criminals fault.

I've tried to get in touch with my own emotions a little more, observe them a lot more than I used to anyway... .it's pretty crazy how often one feels certain types of emotions like shame, guilt, anger, sadness, fear... .even in the weirdest of situations.

Enabler

[zachira]

"'I've tried to get in touch with my own emotions a little more, observe them a lot more than I used to anyway... .it's pretty crazy how often one feels certain types of emotions like shame, guilt, anger, sadness, fear... .even in the weirdest of situations."

Enabler, it is actually not that unusual to be feeling emotions like shame, guilt, anger, sadness... .even in the weirdest of situations. People who grow up in healthy families get their emotions validated, so no emotion becomes overwhelming for them, at least for not long periods of time. Those of us who come from dysfunctional families often struggle with not having our emotions validated, and the emotions just pile up and can be overwhelming for long periods of time. Dysfunctional families teach their children that their feelings  are something to be ashamed of. There really is no such thing as a bad feeling. If feelings are noticed and felt as they come up, then with time feelings are not so overwhelming, and we are able to access our happier feelings more, which makes it easier to overcome life's biggest challenges even in the worst of times. Keep up the good work of trying to access your emotions more, and with time you will see a big difference in how you feel and respond to whatever comes your way.

[Enabler]

Hey Zachira,

My point is more that I came from a healthy family (give or take a few bits and bobs). I notice my own emotional reactions to things so little or at least I am so comfortable with them they kinda pass me by a lot of the time... .or used to. Yes I noticed the extremities of elation or despair (especially in the last few years) but the general hum-drum of life was just emotional noise... .I guess in a way I feel pretty lucky. However, this desensitisation to my own emotions has led to a disconnect between feeling and reaction... .since I needed to change automatic reactions to instead formulate responses one needed to retune myself to my emotions. If I could hear my emotions first through physical and cognitive signals I could head off reaction and instead replace with a response. My reaction in most cases would not be dysfunctional in the past, however it might not be in my best interests given an emotional sensitive spouse who was/is running for the door and at least one emotionally sensitive daughter.

It has certainly been clear to me that I reacted based on secondary emotions rather than primary emotions... .eg anger and outrage instead of fear or sadness. I regard myself to be a relatively emotionally sturdy guy, not wooden and in fact pretty emotionally expressive, but my emotions are something I derive  rather than something I’m infected with by inconsequential externalities... .I will laugh at you if you’re in a grump about something. This said, my default was that everyone thinks like me and everyone else should require a similar velocity jolt to nudge them off emotional balance... .sad but true but although I knew some people were more sensitive than others, the profound impact this sensitivity would have over the way they pictured the world has been a massive revelation.

Enabler