Reflections on my own healing and the relationship (cont.)

[Depression = 72% of members]

probably not (although i dont know her). and i suspect she had the intention of reconnecting, and in the end, felt that it might be better for everyone, not to. that is my guess based on what youve told us.

Yes, I think maybe that was the case, too, now. I will never know, I suppose. She made a few comments about how we shouldn't hang out otherwise she would end up falling into old habits with me, too. So perhaps she just felt it was for the best to remove herself.

i can certainly see why youd have that impression (that she hated you). just cutting someone off, not replying, is really, deeply hurtful, tends to leave the person on the receiving end wondering why, and just wanting some explanation. its happened to me a few times in my life with people i wasnt even near as close as you were to this girl, and it still stung.

it would have probably been better, at least in the long run, if shed been upfront and said it would be better to go your separate ways, if thats how she felt. unfortunately this sort of thing (ghosting) is increasingly on the rise in the dating and friendship world, as a method of choice to sever ties.

I agree. A simple sentence or two of "I don't think we should talk for a while" would have been quite helpful. Perhaps things were just too tense; she is avoidant by nature anyway, so no surprise. It's sad that ghosting is so common, yes. It could save a lot of people a lot of pain, really. It's not always easy to be upfront, I hear that. But it's better in the long run for everyone, I feel.

how much time passed between those two events?

I think two weeks or so.. Not that long. Perhaps she was still angry from the incident, I don't know.

[clvrnn]

probably not (although i dont know her). and i suspect she had the intention of reconnecting, and in the end, felt that it might be better for everyone, not to. that is my guess based on what youve told us.

Yes, I think maybe that was the case, too, now. I will never know, I suppose. She made a few comments about how we shouldn't hang out otherwise she would end up falling into old habits with me, too. So perhaps she just felt it was for the best to remove herself.

i can certainly see why youd have that impression (that she hated you). just cutting someone off, not replying, is really, deeply hurtful, tends to leave the person on the receiving end wondering why, and just wanting some explanation. its happened to me a few times in my life with people i wasnt even near as close as you were to this girl, and it still stung.

it would have probably been better, at least in the long run, if shed been upfront and said it would be better to go your separate ways, if thats how she felt. unfortunately this sort of thing (ghosting) is increasingly on the rise in the dating and friendship world, as a method of choice to sever ties.

I agree. A simple sentence or two of "I don't think we should talk for a while" would have been quite helpful. Perhaps things were just too tense; she is avoidant by nature anyway, so no surprise. It's sad that ghosting is so common, yes. It could save a lot of people a lot of pain, really. It's not always easy to be upfront, I hear that. But it's better in the long run for everyone, I feel.

how much time passed between those two events?

I think two weeks or so.. Not that long. Perhaps she was still angry from the incident, I don't know.

[clvrnn]

OK!

I have been reading a lot about radical acceptance. I think before, I wasn't open to moving forward and accepting things... I realise now, though, that I need to start doing so.

So I accept many things (even though they're painful and not what I wanted)

I accept that she is probably not thinking about me. That maybe she has/or had met someone else. May not talk to me again, and may not care much about me. Those things were cutting to accept and realise, before. They still hurt, but I accept them.

Still sometimes succumbing to small bouts of self-doubt and blame - "maybe something I did caused this!" - but the more and more reading I do, I understand it. I even had a couple of sessions with AJ Mahari and she helped me understand more. Most notably that ex pwBPD is used to unhappiness, trauma, etc - so by cutting me off (or any relationship) she is returning to what she knows. Trauma repetition, if you like.

I get it. I get the anger outburst now; I get the rage, the minor things that triggered her. I realise her silence may have been shame/guilt/dissociation/pain, whatever.

Me... I'm trying to bring the focus back around to me. I have worked out for the last two days. Practising the guitar, both electric and acoustic which wow, is amazing and I seem to be picking it up quickly which is fun. Those callouses aren't fun though ha.

It's a shame that people can become so disordered in this way, I can see how much pain living with it must cause to whoever has it, as well as those around them. I know now she wasn't really being mean, this is just how things are and just how she is. I'm sure she did care about me at one point.

Just have to keep moving forwards each day at a time.

[Wicker Man]

I even had a couple of sessions with AJ Mahari...

You actually got to have sessions with her? That is great!  I have watched more than a few of her youtube videos.  As someone who has recovered from BPD herself, I found her to be a wealth of information.  She has a wonderfully firm and realistic but compassionate point of view about BPD. I admire her work and her point of view.  They must have been  reassuring and informative sessions.  

[pwBPD] ... ... used to unhappiness, trauma... ...she is returning to what she knows.

My therapist told me, it often appears to him, people suffering from BPD will self sabotage.  If things are going swimmingly they will throw a wrench into the works.  Often it is presented in impulsive behavior, which I have come to believe is a (horribly dysfunctional) coping mechanism.  

On a much more minor level I saw my father do similar things in his career.  He would experience guilt when he was successful -he always felt like an imposter in his work.  He was a brilliant photography -everyone but him could see it.  He didn't suffer from BPD -he suffered from an old world (alcohol infused horror show) Irish catholic upbringing.  He ended up emotionally battered and bruised as an adult, but had nowhere near the level of trauma someone suffering from BPD experiences.  If I extrapolate his self doubt and self sabotage forward to what someone suffering from BPD might experience -it begins to explain a lot of my relationship with my undiagnosed ex.  We had our two worst blowouts when we were trying to plan the physical logistics of our relationship -actually laying the ground work for realizing a future together.  

It's a shame that people can become so disordered...

I guess I theoretically knew there were people in extreme emotional pain...  theoretically...  I have found it an incredible loss of innocence to have fallen in love with one of them.  I feel on some level I have walked a mile in her shoes.  I have seen a glimpse of her pain and confusion.  My life was far easier when I had but a theoretical understanding of psychological dysfunction.  

I know now she wasn't really being mean, this is just how things are and just how she is.

Ummm... for the first time I cannot agree with your observations.  I am guessing she was mean as hell sometimes.  Now... we can explain, perhaps, why she was mean.  Maybe she was in searing pain, full of self doubt, and may have been cognitively distorting your relationship to fit the life long narrative of pain and abandonment.  Maybe...  But... It this neither expresses nor implies she wasn't mean.

I'm sure she did care about me at one point.

I would bet my last dollar she cared about you.  From my anecdotal experience I felt loved on a level approaching pathology.  She loved to an impossible and unsustainable level.  I believe people suffering from BPD 'feel' far more than a neuro-typical person -love sweeps them away... their pain is momentarily gone...  They have found the 'one'... Then the pain comes back and there is hell to pay.

Just have to keep moving forward...

Amen sister!

[MeandThee29]

I have been reading a lot about radical acceptance. I think before, I wasn't open to moving forward and accepting things... I realise now, though, that I need to start doing so.

So I accept many things (even though they're painful and not what I wanted)

I accept that she is probably not thinking about me. That maybe she has/or had met someone else. May not talk to me again, and may not care much about me. Those things were cutting to accept and realise, before. They still hurt, but I accept them.

Still sometimes succumbing to small bouts of self-doubt and blame - "maybe something I did caused this!" - but the more and more reading I do, I understand it. I even had a couple of sessions with AJ Mahari and she helped me understand more. Most notably that ex pwBPD is used to unhappiness, trauma, etc - so by cutting me off (or any relationship) she is returning to what she knows. Trauma repetition, if you like.

I get it. I get the anger outburst now; I get the rage, the minor things that triggered her. I realise her silence may have been shame/guilt/dissociation/pain, whatever.

It's a shame that people can become so disordered in this way, I can see how much pain living with it must cause to whoever has it, as well as those around them. I know now she wasn't really being mean, this is just how things are and just how she is. I'm sure she did care about me at one point.

My faith tradition is different, but the concepts behind radical acceptance is something that I'm beginning to understand. Against culture and all evidence to the contrary, you can ultimately come through anything and be BETTER. The victim mindset does absolutely nothing for you. I don't always agree with her, but Kris Godinez recently had a video on forgiveness that I listened to twice that is along the same lines.

Trauma repetition is a good description. So tragic too.

[clvrnn]

You actually got to have sessions with her? That is great!  I have watched more than a few of her youtube videos.  As someone who has recovered from BPD herself, I found her to be a wealth of information.  She has a wonderfully firm and realistic but compassionate point of view about BPD. I admire her work and her point of view.  They must have been  reassuring and informative sessions.  

Yes, I did! I took the plunge and did it - I figured I'd pay that in therapy anyway, so had a few sessions. She is very, as you say, firm and realistic. I came away from each of those sessions feeling quite empowered and able to see things differently. 

Ummm... for the first time I cannot agree with your observations.  I am guessing she was mean as hell sometimes.  Now... we can explain, perhaps, why she was mean.  Maybe she was in searing pain, full of self doubt, and may have been cognitively distorting your relationship to fit the life long narrative of pain and abandonment.  Maybe...  But... It this neither expresses nor implies she wasn't mean.

Well, maybe she was mean. I think it's my overt empathy that got me enabling her so much and so often. Yes, there is an explanation but no excuse, right?

[clvrnn]

I think I'm slowly moving away from the actual break up and relationship. I can see it wouldn't have worked. I understand why she did what she did (although I don't think I forgive, just yet). So much information about BPD has gone into my head I feel like I could start giving lectures at my uni about it!

The pain/frustration has moved into something else, now. Same old - I've gone from being afraid of seeing her at uni to just not wanting to. I'd give anything to be able to just press 'skip' on the whole thing. A few reasons I don't want to go back:

1. I really don't want to be ignored and avoided by her. Regardless of whether I make the decision to interact with her or not, her silence/avoidance is particularly painful for me, as she will literally act as if I don't exist. Act overtly cheerful/buddy up with classmates whom she told me she didn't even like (which yes, I know she's allowed to do, but when paired with the acting like I don't exist part, it's horrible)

2. I don't really want to be in that environment without her. That's where we met, spent all of our time, late nights in the library talking and laughing with each other, sitting together in lectures, even getting coffee together. I just don't want to be there, really.

3. The end of uni - it's unlikely I'll see her again. So it feels like it's over for me, but not really, if that makes sense. The whole ending of uni for me is a kind of momentous thing anyway, and it upsets me that it has this added part to it.

4. I think if she does try and engage with me, I will feel offended because I seem to be some sort of uni-only commodity to her and I have never really felt part of her 'real' life. So it's unlikely I'll even want to engage.

I had been stupidly hoping for her to recycle, as time went on and it was clear she wasn't going to (although I did change my number so how could she have, really) I was forced into getting over everything. I think there's a tiny hope that she'll recycle at uni - when she doesn't, I think I'll be hurt.

I can't see any reason she will engage with me at uni either. People move on. It's been so long. She's under no obligation to talk to me.

Soo... sorry for the long post but this uni thing? I'd rather not, really. I feel as if I've almost got everything under control in terms of moving forwards. It's all very slow but I know without seeing her again I'd be fine. But I do have to, and yeah. No idea what to do.

I know life isn't ideal, but there seem to be so many complexities to this particular thing. I probably wouldn't even be thinking about it this much if I didn't have to see her again.

[Wicker Man]

...an explanation but no excuse, right?

Yes -I agree.  Mental illness is not an excuse for abusive behavior.  It does however seem explain it.  It helped me greatly to finally have a reason (aka she is seriously mentally ill) for what seemed otherwise to be outlandish behavior.  She only raged, for the most part, when I was out of country -our greatest issues was her by leaps and bounds eroding my trust in her and brick by brick destroying the foundation of our relationship.

I don't think I enabled much, but I certainly became a wizard at coming up with excuses for her (-young, bad habits, cultural issues, 'maybe she is telling the truth' and so on and so forth).  Whenever she did something which I felt was harmful to us I would speak to her about it after the heat of the moment --but the conversations would appear to go in one ear and out the other.   In the worst case one of these discussions compelled her to jump ship, ghost me and hop in bed with someone else... She sure showed us... ugh.

It was learning about the cognitive distortion and amnesia people with BPD can suffer from which made me begin to understand why she does the things she does.

I am truly glad to hear you benefitted so much from your therapy sessions!  Yay you.

[clvrnn]

It’s perfectly OK for a person to end things with another person and not want to engage, I get that. I’m not suggesting that she must forever stay in contact with me against her wishes.

I find it so hard to articulate how I feel about this university thing – I feel obsessed most of the time, but it feels as if it is looming over me and I can’t escape it. This entire dynamic has caused me so much stress and confusion since it began, all I want to do is move on with my life. I don’t want to be around someone who is rejecting me and doing it in a way that I feel is more hurtful than it needs to be.

I understand that she is protecting her own emotional wellbeing, and that she can’t help how she acts. Everyone is entitled to take actions that ensure their own emotional wellbeing, yes. She is not responsible for my happiness, no. But the situation that we were in has affected me and my happiness, yes.

During this time I have learnt that I am probably suffering from CPTSD – not just from her, but from childhood events. I’ve learned so much about why I am the way I am, and how people in my childhood treated me and how that has made me into who I now am. So this all feels a lot harder than simply going into uni and just ignoring her myself.

Even thinking about it now, I can feel myself in the classroom, seeing her over there – the urge of wanting her to notice me or talk to me will probably be there. And I don’t want that to be there, I just want to step out of all of this. It’s gone on so long, I’ve thought about it so much, I’ve written so much about it – I just want it to end, now.

Honestly, I have thought so many times about just leaving university. I have zero interest in it, now. My emotional health feels more important than some piece of writing telling me I’ve got a degree in something I’m not even that interested in, anymore. To sit around in the vicinity of someone I do still have feelings for, but who has convinced herself in her mind that I shouldn’t be in her life because of some wrongdoing I didn’t even do.

To know that she has completely written me off as a person. To know that she doesn’t care about the rest of me, or the time we spent together, isn’t interested in talking to me. I get that all that stuff comes after any break up – but here it was different. She didn’t just fall out of love with me or get bored or whatever else.

I wish she’d even just say “hey, I’m sorry about what happened” – but I’m not holding out for it, nor do I think she’ll ever do that. She seems content in never engaging with me again. I know that without seeing her ever again I could just move on.

I’m probably overthinking a lot of this, my own anxiety and worry doesn’t calm down. There’s a lot of fortune-telling and mind-reading going on, I can see that. I don’t know what will happen, and I don’t know what she thinks or feels about me or the situation. Maybe it will be just as difficult for her, maybe she does think about me, maybe she does regret it – although after this amount of time I doubt it.

Even these posts, I feel like I am boring everyone to death with this – I myself am bored to death of it all. I just want to move on.

[ClearEyes]

Hi clvrnn,

I've been following your story with interest and compassion. Obsessing, ruminating and worrying caused by anxiety disorders bring their own extra challenges to this mess which is difficult enough already. I am personally struggling with OCD and GAD.

My case is also kinda similar to yours. Just like your are worried going back to uni and seeing your ex, I'm scared to go back to work next week after holidays because I know it will cause huge anxiety to see the person who made me understand I mean everything to her and now it's like nothing ever happened.

You said that you've thought about leaving uni. I strongly recommend and encourage you not do that. It may seem like a tempting short term solution, but it most likely will make you regret it later on. Are you familiar with Mark Freeman's book The Mind Workout or his YouTube channel? If you're not, please check them out, they're full of quality CBT/ACT based content about living your life according to your values no matter what feelings, emotions and thoughts you're experiencing.

Take care, we will get through this!

[Wicker Man]

...the urge of wanting her to notice me or talk to me will probably be there. And I don’t want that to be there, I just want to step out of all of this. It’s gone on so long, I’ve thought about it so much, I’ve written so much about it – I just want it to end, now.

I think I can understand -however I have to say I would actually be quite afraid to see my ex.  I am not sure what she is capable of since, although she ended us, she feels we were not done.  There seems to be an obsessional aspect to her though processes. 

...My emotional health feels more important than some piece of writing telling me I’ve got a degree in something I’m not even that interested in, anymore...

If you can you should complete your degree.  Even if you are no longer interested in that specific discipline having a degree will help you in whatever vocation you decide to pursue.  Don't give her the power over you to the extent it will alter your life's decisions. 

“hey, I’m sorry about what happened”

As easy as it would be for us as (relatively) healthy neurotics to say something to this effect I am afraid for someone with BPD traits it would be tantamount to chewing glass.  If she were to make this sort of an admission it might imply she is wholly bad and evil (dichotomous thinking).   For us we realize when we make a mistake we are fallible and move on -for them to admit fallibility seems to imply utter failure.

The last note I had from Dream Come True was something to the effect of 'If, just if, something bad happened... '  We were talking about the week she ghosted me and hopped in bed with some actor.  I told her 'Yes -something bad did happen -you made me not trust you.'  Even in the end of days she could not accept accountability for her missteps.  It really helped me to realize this.  Had we been able to have a 'real' discussion about this it may have filled me full of doubt -but no.  I made the right decision.

Maybe it will be just as difficult for her, maybe she does think about me, maybe she does regret it – although after this amount of time I doubt it.

From what I have read people with BPD do not get over loss easily.  Mine kept inappropriate contact with no less than 3 guys from her past. -I don't read Mandarin so I don't know if there were more.  Oh!  Ironically (I mean horrible) she told me in our last contact '...remember I told you I have two phones'...  She hadn't... ugh!

I feel like I am boring everyone to death with this – I myself am bored to death of it all. I just want to move on.

That is catharsis and healing!  When you get completely bored with the rehashing and retelling the 'reward' of doing so lessens -which means you don't 'need' it anymore.  Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance

[clvrnn]

I think I can understand -however I have to say I would actually be quite afraid to see my ex.  I am not sure what she is capable of since, although she ended us, she feels we were not done.  There seems to be an obsessional aspect to her though processes. 

Obsessional? Forgive me for asking if you’ve mentioned it on these boards before, but has there ever been any incidents that worry you, her acting out in any way, or whatever?

I don’t want to be around her because it makes me start thinking about her, and I don’t want to do it. I want to move forward, not get dragged back into my hyper vigilance around her and what she thinks about me, or what she’s doing or who she’s talking to. Something about her mere presence draws me in, I have since learnt that it is the ‘energy’ surrounding her which reminds me of an abusive family member. I mistook it for chemistry, before.

If you can you should complete your degree.  Even if you are no longer interested in that specific discipline having a degree will help you in whatever vocation you decide to pursue.  Don't give her the power over you to the extent it will alter your life's decisions. 

As easy as it would be for us as (relatively) healthy neurotics to say something to this effect I am afraid for someone with BPD traits it would be tantamount to chewing glass.  If she were to make this sort of an admission it might imply she is wholly bad and evil (dichotomous thinking).   For us we realize when we make a mistake we are fallible and move on -for them to admit fallibility seems to imply utter failure.

Oh of course, changing my life path isn’t a good idea and I have come very far with the degree I suppose. It just, in general, didn’t turn out to be this life-changing experience I thought it would be. Well, it was life-changing, but in all the wrong ways!

Oh definitely, the dichotomous thinking. Even for NTs it’s hard to turn around and say sorry, no one likes to feel as if they’ve done something ‘wrong’ or hurt anyone. Saying that though, interpersonal relationships are often important to us so rather than lose them we apologise, right? Resolve. Move forwards.

Her line of thinking was always that things would break down, that she’d “break my heart” (a flippant comment a year and a half ago which I dismissed), or that she didn’t want to date me because if things broke down it would be awkward in class – she never seemed able to think it would work out. So yeah, guess she knows who she is.

The last note I had from Dream Come True was something to the effect of 'If, just if, something bad happened... '  We were talking about the week she ghosted me and hopped in bed with some actor.  I told her 'Yes -something bad did happen -you made me not trust you.'  Even in the end of days she could not accept accountability for her missteps.  It really helped me to realize this.  Had we been able to have a 'real' discussion about this it may have filled me full of doubt -but no.  I made the right decision.

So that was DCT’s way of telling you something HAD happened? You seem very astute (is that the right word?) about how she would communicate with you, and what it all meant. That sort of vague, non-committal language must have been quite stressful to be on the receiving end of.

From what I have read people with BPD do not get over loss easily.  Mine kept inappropriate contact with no less than 3 guys from her past. -I don't read Mandarin so I don't know if there were more.  Oh!  Ironically (I mean horrible) she told me in our last contact '...remember I told you I have two phones'...  She hadn't... ugh!

I have spent a lot of time on another BPD forum and the general line of thinking is the whole ‘supply’ thing, the old ‘discard and replace’ mentality, which seems to have been borne out of anger (and I understand) but I don’t think life or people are as dogmatic as that. As for getting over loss – hmm.

As I am only used to being with people who don’t have BPD, silence = don’t want to talk, I’m over you, etc. As I’ve learnt, the more you mean to them/closer you are, the more pronounced the silence/distance.

Two phones? How did that make you feel? How long were you and DCT involved?

That is catharsis and healing!  When you get completely bored with the rehashing and retelling the 'reward' of doing so lessens -which means you don't 'need' it anymore.  Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance.

YES! This is where I am, I think. This is why it’s just a huge step backwards heading back into that environment with her – I know how it is likely to affect me. I just want my brain back, want to get on with life. I don’t care who she’s with, or what she’s doing. She made her choice, right?

Of course I still care about her, but this person has never been able to or never wanted to offer me any form of consistency. All I want is just to move on. I don’t care about who she sees, what she does, I don’t want to know. I just want to think about ME and where I go from here.

I don’t regret any time spent with her, I only wish I knew what I was dealing with and maybe I wouldn’t have made the decision to go so far with it, or to keep waiting for her to change and treat me better.

[Cromwell]

clvrnn I feel the same sense of not caring, I wrote the relationship off, but there is one small part left to do, can I actually have some peace and get on with life? or is it too much to ask, on top of the rather small things such as getting over heart break, depression etc. It is very much the drop of what makes the whole thing change in my reflections as an upset, to being more "sour" in the here and now.

A lot of this is rooted in practical terms, we talked before about if you could study elsewhere etc but it would not work out well. My only issue is that when I weigh my life circumstances up, I have already done so much that has helped to keep her away, but there is residual outfall. We live in a small city, I already encountered her once before by chance, everyone knows someone who knows someone else. Because of her active stalking in the r/s it has left me with an edginess.

I would move but like yourself, when I weigh it all up, the result pops out - she is not worth uprooting the positives I have. I used to be quite defiant about not adapting my life around to suit someone else who is an antagonist, but it is not about that anymore, I had to shift to making choices more along the cost/benefit weigh up. Seems to me like you may have already done something similar.

Well all I can say clvrnn as some hope is that this upset and frustration just made me more mentally stronger and resilient in the end. I just enjoy my life each day, keep to my own plans, and when I come across sad types like her, or her, my attitude has changed, it is an indifference towards what we are really talking about here is insane people and this is not just about my ex, the mentally ill abound and my eyes have just been made more open to the prevalance of it. I just did well prior not to have had a relationship with a pwBPD, it is not an overt in your face illness until you get emotionally deep into it.

It is quite strange to me, the legal basis of the mental health act in the UK. "if you are a harm to yourself or others", being a key condition. Well, these people certainly have harmed others - psychic trauma is also legally recognised as fitting this.

The reason I feel Im having to go through this, is the cost saving measures in mental health - ie, the asylums and move towards what was coined "care in the community" - cost saving, I dont know, but disasterous and unfair on all concerned who deal with the brunt of it. Here is the sneaky get out clause - it is a disorder not a mental illness, which expunges a lot of obligation to treat it as such.

clvrnn it is up to you how much you want to dig, research, understand etc, I did but whilst informative stuff, I only got emotionally better when I realised "ok, it is more obvious if it never was prior, she is not right in the head and you never realised"

thats it, make peace with it - move on - be happy and do so by dropping inward looking anxiety that limits enjoyment of the here and now.

it was not your fault

[clvrnn]

Thank you Cromwell. A lot of good points in that reply. Yes, the 'risk to others' part only seems to cover physical danger, it seems. Emotional and psychological abuse doesn't seem to be taken seriously or as seriously as it should be. You mention it to people and it's still hard to try and convey it in a way that articulates the true nature of it.

[clvrnn]

I'm sorry for posting so often. I have had to stop therapy and I only feel safe talking here - other forums, non cluster B ones, I just don't feel safe there. People come on and just berate me, or tell me to "get over it", and that just leads to a deep feeling of shame for the way I do feel, and the fact that I am not fully over it.

Yesterday was tough. I began thinking about going back to uni, and I had a couple of panic attacks, crying, whatever. The thought of being ignored by her, and just in general the sound of everyone in the class talking while I'm finding it so difficult... it just set me off. It bought everything back, it made me feel sick with anxiety.

The feeling of being ignored and having to keep up appearances with people in class at the same time AND having to absorb all this essential information with the degree and write assignments while trying to understand what was going on with her and I was just so overwhelming. I remember one class I was just sitting there staring at the lecturer's slides with tears in my eyes as pwBPD sat a couple of rows ahead of me, and all I wanted to do was leave the room, leave the building. The entire thing was just very overwhelming. I wasn't able to take time off, because it was assignment time, and if you stop going in they stop helping you financially, and I'd already had a warning about my attendance. I felt trapped, forced into this continued interaction with the environment that was stressing me out. No time at all to have space from someone that was acting in ways that hurt me, none.

I think all of that just came back to me yesterday and as we approach the new term I feel a lot of it coming back, the worry and anxiety. I've emailed my advisor to ask about not being put into groups with pwBPD, but there are some classes that we do have to have together.

I have realised also that my hope that she talks to me is because I feel that if she does speak to me that I did mean something to her. If she doesn't interact with me, it will confirm for me that she doesn't and never did care and I guess it's just like another rejection. This is all so complex and difficult to articulate. I feel mad, most of the time.Maybe I am.

[Baglady]

Hi Clvrnn,

Please don't feel any shame over perfectly valid feelings of anxiety regarding handling interactions with a person who has deeply wounded you.  I have the exact same feelings when I have to interact with my exBPDh due to coparenting and I thank you for articulating them so clearly.  The thought of in real life contact with my ex is almost panic inducing for me and I think it comes down to our desperate but very understandable need to try to protect ourselves from a deeply toxic human.  The anxiety seems almost biologically driven and I know I go straight into flight mode whenever I see my ex. In theory, these are people that we should never have to interact with again in any capacity for our own sanity but sometimes life doesn't allow us to go non-contact with them for various reasons.

I'm not sure what the answers are to this dilemma but know that you are certainly not alone in this struggle so please remove any feelings of shame from the equation    

Warmly,
B

[Wicker Man]

Obsessional? Forgive me for asking if you’ve mentioned it on these boards before, but has there ever been any incidents that worry you, her acting out in any way, or whatever?

She, from what I know, still may have delusions of us being together or getting back together at some point.  As I mentioned she tattooed my surname on her hand 4 months into no contact.  She is also, as far as I know, still using my surname on a social media account. 

She was never violent toward me, but from what she told me she had been involved in  give and take domestic violence in previous relationships.  My concern would be about her dysregulating or disassociating because of the stress.  Seeing her would not change my resolve that being -she is dangerous to my wellbeing and there could never be a future with her.

...the ‘energy’ surrounding her which reminds me of an abusive family member. I mistook it for chemistry...

This is a breakthrough realization!  Well done.

...didn’t turn out to be this life-changing experience I thought it would be...

I know the feeling.  No level of accomplishment really changes who we are when we look in the mirror each morning.  It isn't life changing to earn a degree, but it is a life accomplishment and something to be proud of.

...she’d “break my heart” (a flippant comment a year and a half ago which I dismissed)...

I was told directly 'You must leave me -I will destroy you'.  I didn't understand at the time -this was an honest truth and an expression of deep love on her part. 


...So that was DCT’s way of telling you something [infidelity] HAD happened?...

She would lie about each occurrence, but the story would shift.  She lied often, but was terrible at it.   For instance I had a meeting with a guy she spent the night with.  On the way to the meeting she said -He may tell terrible lies about me and that evening...   Ugh...  She, of course, never came up in the meeting -it was business.  However, what she told me in that statement was... 'Something bad happened'. 

I have spent a lot of time on another BPD forum and the general line of thinking is the whole ‘supply’ thing, the old ‘discard and replace’ mentality...

In my opinion that is more accurate for narcissists.  People with BPD are leaves blown in a tempest -there is no design to the mayhem they cause.  --However their lack of motivation or intent does not make their actions less painful to us.   If 'get over it' worked there would be no need for the mental health trade...  It is wonderful and yet... useless advice... 

Two phones? How did that make you feel? How long were you and DCT involved?

I think we made it 18 months before the wheels flew off.  Hearing about the 2nd phone, presuming I understood her correctly just made me sad.  It means she really was never able to 'let go' and fully invest in what could have been a very beneficial relationship for her.  (I know she had 2 WeChat accounts -and that could have been what she meant, but she definitely said 'phone' and my mandarin isn't THAT terrible)

...She made her choice, right?

Yes -this is true, but it is sort of like 'Get over it'.  One has to take a truth like this and build a safe place around it.  Dream Come True blew us up, and I know in my mind she is dangerous, but it took me a good year to accept this in my heart. 

Of course I still care about her...

@Sadly wrote something like 'We are mourning something we never had'.  There is wisdom in this notion.

I don’t regret any time spent with her...

I wish I had never spoke to Dream Come True.  It caused me incredible pain and a loss of innocence.  I was forced to 'grow up' in a manner which I would have rather avoided.  The good was better than anything I have know, as was the bad... And the potential was there for literally ruining my life.  Just imagine for a moment a custody battle with the Pacific Ocean in the middle of it.  China doesn't care much for the rights of her own citizens...  I almost bought her family a house for god sake (dumbass)...   However in the moment it made sense.  Meeting her family was the happiest week of my life.

I have to head out for work (yay!)  sorry for the staccato reply.  You are really doing well and should be proud of your progress.  If you doubt it look back at your first posts.

[clvrnn]

Thank you WM, I really appreciate it 

In a weird place right now - uni is creeping up and it does feel odd, to me. I have forced myself to develop beliefs around her:

• I don't think she will talk to me or recycle
• I think that there IS someone else
• I don't think seeing me at university will make a difference to how she feels
• I don't think she regrets anything and I don't believe she thinks about me at all
• I believe that this is 'it', and that she'll never speak to me again, ever

I feel like a lot of those beliefs are cognitive distortions but I have almost welcomed them, in a way. When I think positively about her - "oh, she might talk to me" - I go down a route of hope and it makes me feel sad and hurt. I feel like, by thinking the negatives, I can try and prepare for everything.

This has been such a strange time. I've had relationships lasting over two years that haven't affected me or left me feeling this way for so long.

I also wonder whether I've just been in extreme denial, thinking there's still a chance - or whether my thoughts and feelings around that are justified, due to her previous comings and goings. I do know though, that if I ever have another relationship, the break up will be a breeze compared to this one!

I still feel quite depressed and I am worried about uni as a whole, I would have liked to have her in my life as studying with her and just hanging out was so much fun and it was nice to have my own friend, after so many years of struggling with friendships. That is a disappointment for me - I don't really meet many people I 'gel' with, and I tried hanging out with people in class, none of them really 'fit', if that makes sense. I feel worried that I'm probably going to have to spend a lot of time alone this year. She isn't responsible for my life and my social circle, I know. I just wish none of the bad stuff had happened, but hey.

[Cromwell]

Hi Clvrnn.

"fit", "gel"?

are we referring to the same person who put you down about your personal hygiene? and all the rest.

You do not have to be lonely. at the same time I fully believe that there are others besides her that can provide whatever nervous system spark, or fun, or good qualities you were wishing for in a friend. If you cant find it in classmates, there is a whole world out there, she does not have a monopoly even if it may feel that way. The issue here is avoiding these distortions and evaluating her in the full form, before making a decision about what to do about it. Trying to battle uphill against disenchantment is creating this conflict and struggle, none of this is pleasant stuff, to talk about, ponder about, and anxieties and worries are rooted in the indecisiveness and speculating about what will happen, but not having a clear plan of what to do. Last time you just carried on without addressing key issues, there is a risk of the same pattern repeating itself, like failing a driving test the second time for the same faults.

what is worrying is a deeper issue of being worried about being alone and the tactic of having a fake friend as a crutch for this. worrying because this can carry its way foward to other spheres of relationships in the future. What will you do if you end up in an unhappy marriage - stay in it miserable simply because it seems preferable to being alone? Many do. Extend that to jobs that you might become disillussioned about, nothing in life is guaranteed to reach our expectations, even if it is nice when it does. We need this inner resilience to know how to ultimately be comfortable being alone (different than simply lonely) when there is a lack of external others to use as a crutch mechanism. This issue may be deeper than just the nuances of this relationship with her.

Going to uni, or anywhere else, is not by itself a life-changing experience. It is just a facilitator. It is up to you to make the experience whatever you want to make it. If you choose to spend it with someone who has made you this unhappy, induce worry and anxiety, at the opportunity cost of spending that time with others, or yourself - no one will stop you, but it is your decision to weigh up and decide if it was worthwhile.

Have to avoid becoming victim to the crystal ball doom fortune telling stuff, for all you know you could walk in to uni at start of term and find out she has dropped out. How would you feel? viz a viz all the ruminating and scenario making exercise, it would have been worry for nothing?

[clvrnn]

You do not have to be lonely. at the same time I fully believe that there are others besides her that can provide whatever nervous system spark, or fun, or good qualities you were wishing for in a friend. If you cant find it in classmates, there is a whole world out there, she does not have a monopoly even if it may feel that way.

As mentioned, I did try and interact with people in class but it was just not working out. I felt that I did put a lot of weight into the do-or-die act of finding a friend at university , and when it didn’t happen, I felt a lot of disappointment. At the time of enrolment, I was in another relationship with someone who’d gone to the same uni and she was constantly telling me how I would find “life long friends” at uni – and she had. The fact that I haven’t has I suppose made me feel a failure in a way.

The issue here is avoiding these distortions and evaluating her in the full form, before making a decision about what to do about it. Trying to battle uphill against disenchantment is creating this conflict and struggle,

You’ve nailed it. At times I can see her for who she is, but others I fall into sadness and disappointment, etc. The real disappointment of things not working, this person whom I thought was someone else, who I thought valued me in the same way, who I thought didn’t want to lose me, etc. Same old. I am trying to maintain one linear view of her but it just keeps flitting from one to the other. I’ve tried so many things – reading these posts again and again, therapy, journaling, everything. It is infuriating, at times.

what is worrying is a deeper issue of being worried about being alone and the tactic of having a fake friend as a crutch for this. worrying because this can carry its way foward to other spheres of relationships in the future. What will you do if you end up in an unhappy marriage - stay in it miserable simply because it seems preferable to being alone?

I think this relationship has opened up a lot of things. Often times the pain isn’t even about her, but about the fact that I don’t really know where to start, and life circumstances have led to a few difficulties in interpersonal relationships for me, self-esteem issues, mental health difficulties. I am very aware that these things impact how I interact with others and the relationships I choose. I do feel very alone and probably did grasp onto this person, despite the bad treatment. I tried for many years to socialise and meet all sorts of different people, or try to build relationships – it’s never worked. This experience with her I think was just the final straw, and I am finding it hard to want to interact with anyone, becasuse I feel as if I have issues that keep attracting me to the wrong people, and I have to stop for a while. So yeah, now that makes me quite lonely.

Going to uni, or anywhere else, is not by itself a life-changing experience. It is just a facilitator. It is up to you to make the experience whatever you want to make it. If you choose to spend it with someone who has made you this unhappy, induce worry and anxiety, at the opportunity cost of spending that time with others, or yourself - no one will stop you, but it is your decision to weigh up and decide if it was worthwhile.

You’re right. It was up to me. I tried being friends with a few different people, and tried a few different things. I was the president of a society at one point, but I didn’t enjoy it so I left. I hung out with different people, but I didn’t really enjoy it. I chose to hang out with her, yes. I suppose I did neglect other opportunities, but in all honesty after the failed attempt at president-being, I lost interest in those clubs. And the uni is way too far from my house for me to casually join any other groups – the journey there is an hour and half and I just really didn’t want to. Plus, at that time in my life, being around people on public transport was really stressful and I was having a lot of anxiety. A lot fo times I would have to get a taxi home which was really expensive, but it was the only way I felt 'safe' to travel. Joining groups and being out all the time was the worst thing I could have done.  I know that was my choice, so I can’t complain.

I believed that she just had some fear that could be overcome with time. I didn’t know much about the abrupt nature of the cutting-off that those with BPD could issue. I don’t know if I’d do the same thing at this point in my life. I can see that it was a mistake. During the first break up, she got in touch with me and I was with a classmate. I lied to the classmate – we were going for a coffee together – and said I was going home. I went to meet pwBPD. I honestly wish I had just gone for the coffee. I wish I had never responded to her after the four month silence. So many mistakes that I now see weren’t worth it, and I wish I’d made better choices.

Have to avoid becoming victim to the crystal ball doom fortune telling stuff, for all you know you could walk in to uni at start of term and find out she has dropped out. How would you feel? viz a viz all the ruminating and scenario making exercise, it would have been worry for nothing?

Lol, I’d feel very shocked and stunned, I think. Knowing her and how she struggled with essays of 2,000 words I can’t see how she’ll manage a 10,000 word dissertation on top of three or four 2,500 essays. I have never seen her pick up a book in her life. I was the person that helped her with all her work – I know for a fact that she failed the last round of assignments (that I didn’t help her with). I know she doesn’t even like the course, and is there only to collect the student loans. She wanted to drop out so often, and spends every lecture on her phone browsing Instagram or listening to music. It would not surprise me if she dropped out.

You’re right. I am not a fortune teller. My anxiety is at it’s height, right now. But despite how solid the scenario feels in my mind, I have no idea how it will go. This does feel all for nothing, but it also feels as if it’s a way of preparing myself for any outcome.

I just want to extend thanks also for the reply you've given. I really appreciate the fact that you took the time to write all of that. And I don't really disagree with anything you've said.

[Cromwell]

Its fine Clvrnn, Id like you to know that whilst detached im still very much in a healing stage and it helps to talk with you.

I try not to dwelve too deeply and latch on to points you make, the way I see it is, your bright enough to forge your own way and when I know you have sacked your therapist and like myself, gone into DIY therapy, I dont want to nudge you off track.

In other words, I believe in you, how you present yourself here - the rest is like your studies "all will be revealed in time".

In trying to reduce my own levels of anxiety Ive found success in learning to pace the recovery. For example, I allow myself one cup of coffee a day rather than say "none" whatsoever. One a day is far better than 10.

What else since no contact - I plan to have a holiday every 3 months, go to the gym slightly less, pick a weekend here and there where I will just rest as in, lay in bed and do nothing at all. Clear up my diet. When it comes to anxiety, the subforce at play is psychological initiating a physiological response. All that an anti anxiety pill does is counter-act the physiological response, lowering blood pressure is one way. Meditation, even a long walk in the country (a leisurely walk), maybe none of these things in isolation will cure the anxiety, therapy might be needed at some point if it is being resisted now, but these things accumulate to manage anxiety.

I have a mild depression clvrnn, it is super easy to deal with. Anxiety i get sometimes and it is so hard to cope with, except for after 20mins of a low dose pill and it disappears. Im saying this because I can relate to your experience of sitting in the class and feeling overwhelmed, my ex is not at uni but I have had stressful moments there, all it took to change the day was 2mg of an anti anxiety pill. Just sharing what has worked for me, and if you have not or have been unsure of going to the GP. I know looking back I wish I had earlier, it would have spared me many agonising days and nights of obsessive fear based ruminations.

DIY therapy route, not sure how much of a grasp of psychology you may already have, I have 2 years worth from earlier study in life. Currently reading the psychological birth of the human infant by Margaret Mahler, from the uni library, I was reading whilst I was in the spa and I couldnt help but think "thats clvrnn!" only to then reflect and think "or maybe its me". Relating to separation individuation, and how that translates into the relationships we got into and why it seems so illogically difficult for us to break free from them. I have not finished it so cant recommend it, it is in highlighter pen mode, but if you are looking for some reading if it helps instead of ruminating, Mahler is one of the most cited authors when I was reading through journals on BPD.

Lastly, you dont have to listen to those people sitting in the cheap seats of setting expectations for how you should lead your life. We have only life and ill live it my way - what does "you will make friends for life" even mean when you put it under scrutinity. How can she claim to have made a friend for life, she doesnt even know how long life is going to be or what will happen in future. It is just bragging and showing a veneer of how popular it is, people who do this have insecurities. My ex did this. Be the mature one clvrnn, in a world of human-infants, we do not need to regard "fun" as a regression back to the nursery/kindergarten sand pit with a playmate of that emotional stagnated maturity.

Hope you are feeling better and thank you also.