NC but she's reaching out again

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I've put myself in NC with my uBPD mom since April (my siblings chose to cut contact with me as a result, as they chose loyalty to her). I guess I didn't go full-on NC because I didn't block her on messaging or social media, but I have remained silent to her. She has continued to send a few messages occasionally that I haven't answered.

Anyway, she's been silent since early August, but reached out again today. Just wondering if I can get some feedback on this? (heads up: you'll see some religious content here; she is very committed to Christian faith but also tends to use it as a weapon in arguments)

"Just 2 things. I should have listened to my instincts, and what was probably the Holy Spirit, telling me not to have these previous conversations with you through messages. They should have been face to face. Much has been misheard, misunderstood, heard in the wrong tone, because emotions were high and everything gets lost through messages.
Second, in your first message to me with specifics, you said that you may be wrong about things and you hoped so. (this is an ever-so-slight twisting of my words; I said "these are my perceptions, and they might be off, but they feel real") I told you things about us that were indeed wrong. But in your last message, you said that if I denied everything there couldn't be a relationship. That doesn't leave much room for anything for us. We have to confess that the things you have decided about us are true, even if they're not, if we want a relationship with you. I was on the verge of that just to get you back, but the Spirit convicted me and wouldn't let me. I grieve the loss of you and [my child's name] daily."

She's referring to when I listed (at her request) some specific things I have issue with in her behavior and in our relationship. And when she says "I told you things about us that were indeed wrong" -- what really happened was she responded to my message with multiple, extremely long messages of denying and defending everything I said, refusing to own up to being wrong or hurting me in any way, turning it all back around on me and my husband that it was all my fault or my misperception, and hurling a bunch of unfounded accusations at us. That was where I stated that she was denying everything and shifting fault to me, and told her I was done for a while.

Sorry, I feel like I'm rambling here. Trying to give some background...but this is all just so confusing and muddled to me. I want to see clearly if I am wrong about her, but I don't think I am.

It's bizarre that she says "We have to confess that the things you have decided about us are true, even if they're not, if we want a relationship with you." Because that's exactly what I've said from the other side, and even said to her!  My last message to her included this statement:  "I’m refraining from trying to defend or explain myself any further in response to everything you’ve said about me. I won’t be heard, unless what I say is “you’re right and I’m/we’re wrong.” I’m not going to say that."  I've said to my husband, my therapist, and my journal, that the only way to have a relationship is to agree that she's the victim and I'm the bad guy, and I"m not willing to do that.  Now that's exactly what she's saying to me. SO CONFUSING.

So, one of us is wrong. Or both of us are right? Either way, we're still at an impasse. I just don't know up from down anymore.

[WalkbyFaith]

I've put myself in NC with my uBPD mom since April (my siblings chose to cut contact with me as a result, as they chose loyalty to her). I guess I didn't go full-on NC because I didn't block her on messaging or social media, but I have remained silent to her. She has continued to send a few messages occasionally that I haven't answered.

Anyway, she's been silent since early August, but reached out again today. Just wondering if I can get some feedback on this? (heads up: you'll see some religious content here; she is very committed to Christian faith but also tends to use it as a weapon in arguments)

"Just 2 things. I should have listened to my instincts, and what was probably the Holy Spirit, telling me not to have these previous conversations with you through messages. They should have been face to face. Much has been misheard, misunderstood, heard in the wrong tone, because emotions were high and everything gets lost through messages.
Second, in your first message to me with specifics, you said that you may be wrong about things and you hoped so. (this is an ever-so-slight twisting of my words; I said "these are my perceptions, and they might be off, but they feel real") I told you things about us that were indeed wrong. But in your last message, you said that if I denied everything there couldn't be a relationship. That doesn't leave much room for anything for us. We have to confess that the things you have decided about us are true, even if they're not, if we want a relationship with you. I was on the verge of that just to get you back, but the Spirit convicted me and wouldn't let me. I grieve the loss of you and [my child's name] daily."

She's referring to when I listed (at her request) some specific things I have issue with in her behavior and in our relationship. And when she says "I told you things about us that were indeed wrong" -- what really happened was she responded to my message with multiple, extremely long messages of denying and defending everything I said, refusing to own up to being wrong or hurting me in any way, turning it all back around on me and my husband that it was all my fault or my misperception, and hurling a bunch of unfounded accusations at us. That was where I stated that she was denying everything and shifting fault to me, and told her I was done for a while.

Sorry, I feel like I'm rambling here. Trying to give some background...but this is all just so confusing and muddled to me. I want to see clearly if I am wrong about her, but I don't think I am.

It's bizarre that she says "We have to confess that the things you have decided about us are true, even if they're not, if we want a relationship with you." Because that's exactly what I've said from the other side, and even said to her!  My last message to her included this statement:  "I’m refraining from trying to defend or explain myself any further in response to everything you’ve said about me. I won’t be heard, unless what I say is “you’re right and I’m/we’re wrong.” I’m not going to say that."  I've said to my husband, my therapist, and my journal, that the only way to have a relationship is to agree that she's the victim and I'm the bad guy, and I"m not willing to do that.  Now that's exactly what she's saying to me. SO CONFUSING.

So, one of us is wrong. Or both of us are right? Either way, we're still at an impasse. I just don't know up from down anymore.

[Couscous]

Hi Walkbyfaith,

What are some examples of the specific things you listed?

[Riv3rW0lf]

WalkByFaith,

My husband would tell you to also stop reading her messages, to protect yourself. But I understand the urge to read them. Not necessarily because of hope, but just ... Just because. We want to know...

The only thing I can tell you, and this is what I've come to accept with my own BPD mother is that : you might both be honest, and both your truths can coexist... The fact that she is right, does not make you wrong, and your feelings are very valid and real, and so are hers. You have a right to your feelings and your perception of the truth. You didn't imagine any of this. The truth of the illness is that her truth probably makes her feel shame, so she twists it around, but she truly believes it.

With BPD, we have, at some point, to let go of our need to be "right". We need to learn to validate ourselves.

The fact that your mother won't agree with you doesn't make you wrong.

But to her: she truly believes what she is saying, so she hangs on to it. But don't let that confuse you about yourself. You have a right to hold on to your truth,to your story, if this is what makes you feel sane. The mere fact that you are confuse right now is a sign that you are in FOG. Someone who would truly want to reach for peace would not make it confusing. It shouldn't hurt you.

Her truth ends with abusing you. Your truth doesn't. This is where I drew the line for me.

I can now recognize she has her own vision of me, where I am an ungrateful daughter. And in some way, she is right. But I can also recognize that she abuses me whenever she can, that she screams and rages at me, and triggers my C-PTSD. And this is why I need to protect myself.

And so I will not reach out to correct the image she has of me. I don't need to.

I will never be right with her, I will never win. But I don't need to.

WalkByFaith, both your truths are valid, but yours is not an abusive truth, and I think you can find peace in that. You are not trying to hurt her, you are not trying to win anything. You are merely protecting yourself and your family. The rest... What she thinks... It doesn't matter in the end ..

This is what helps me .. I hope it helps you too.

Sending you support.  

[Turkish]

It sounds like a lot of JADEing here (certainly by her) and it sounds like you're talking past each other. What do you think?

Do you feel that it might be more helpful to drill down into a specific, core issue? You can do that here with us without responding to her 

[Notwendy]

One of the topics that has been discussed in my ACA groups is religious abuse. How someone perceives God is influenced by their thinking and so, if your mother has disordered thinking, she may perceive religion that way and use "religion" in an abusive or controlling way. Her idea of "Holy Spirit" saying something to her is her own version of that.

One thought too is that religion has given your mother a sense of identity which probably helps with her sense of self.

One of the tasks of the group members has been to establish their own ideas about God and religion if they were raised with a disordered parent. Surely this kind of message could be troubling to you, having your own connection to your faith.

So one of us is wrong or we are both right? My own rationalization has been to not look at this is wrong or right terms. God created my mother, God knows her thoughts and who she is and surely can understand them better than I can.

God also created me and understands my thoughts and feelings too. My task is to act according to my values. I think many of us struggle with how to treat a parent in the context of "honor your parents" but honoring them doesn't mean doing whatever they want. It's hard to know our parents aren't happy with decisions we make but also enabling them to be abusive isn't honoring them. If a parent asked us to do something illegal- like rob a bank, we still shouldn't break the law. My own rational is that, it's not honoring my mother to allow her to be abusive to me.

One can look at this message as manipulative. It still doesn't address your feelings. It's not an apology. "I was on the verge of that ( confession ) but the Spirit stopped me" and then about her feelings and grief. Writing in Biblical terms may appear more authoritarian but that doesn't mean it comes from authority. It's her interpretation of them. I know you don't want your mother to feel badly but you also don't need to allow her to abuse you. You struggle with this because you are a good person. If you weren't, it wouldn't bother you to see this message. Perhaps re-writing it without the Biblical language will help.

Just 2 things. I should have listened to my instincts, and what was probably my own thoughts telling  me not to have these previous conversations with you through messages. They should have been face to face. You or me ( not clear here)  have misheard, misunderstood, heard in the wrong tone, because emotions were high and everything gets lost through messages. ( she's not saying she misheard)

Second, in your first message to me with specifics, you said that you may be wrong about things and you hoped so. I told you things about us that were indeed wrong. But in your last message, you said that if I denied everything there couldn't be a relationship. That doesn't leave much room for anything for us. You and I have to confess that the things you have decided about us are true, even if they're not, if we want a relationship with you. I thought about saying that, just to get you back  but I am not going to do that.  

I grieve the loss of you -these are my feelings.


.

[WalkbyFaith]

Thanks for all your replies.

this is what I've come to accept with my own BPD mother is that : you might both be honest, and both your truths can coexist... The fact that she is right, does not make you wrong, and your feelings are very valid and real, and so are hers. You have a right to your feelings and your perception of the truth. You didn't imagine any of this. The truth of the illness is that her truth probably makes her feel shame, so she twists it around, but she truly believes it.

Thank you for this reminder, and I agree. This is a good thing for me to keep in mind -- that both views can coexist, at least to some extent, and maybe it really doesn't matter who is "right."

One of the topics that has been discussed in my ACA groups is religious abuse. How someone perceives God is influenced by their thinking and so, if your mother has disordered thinking, she may perceive religion that way and use "religion" in an abusive or controlling way. Her idea of "Holy Spirit" saying something to her is her own version of that.

Yes, Notwendy, I definitely think this is the case. I have said before that I think my mom uses God as a "soother" to herself just like she uses my dad and others around her. You're right, it's also helpful to remove the spiritual language and see what her message says without that. And without the Holy Spirit language, it still is a self-focused, manipulative, and accusatory message.

Do you feel that it might be more helpful to drill down into a specific, core issue?
 
What are some examples of the specific things you listed?

Essentially, the previous conversation (which led to cutting contact) went like this:
 
I said something like:  I don't feel like you and dad show any interest in our life or our work. Whenever we try to share something about our life, the subject gets changed back to yourselves.
Her response was:  I don't understand how you could accuse us of something like that. I have always been interested in you. I wish you would share with me, but I ask you questions and you give me one word answers. You have no interest in sharing your life with me. It just blows my mind how you could even say that. etc etc etc continuing on for paragraphs (including saying that other people who have conversations with me about my work are just doing so out of obligation.)
 
I listed about 4 or 5 specific things that all got similar responses of denying and blame-shifting. This was the breaking point for me, realizing she was not going to take ownership of anything but continue to blame me for everything... and I cannot continue in that kind of relationship. I guess to answer the question, that is the "core issue"...I think?

[Notwendy]

What you are noticing is that, even if they ask what is bothering you, and you tell them, they immediately deny it and blame you or something else.

In the case of my BPD mother, if she asks and you tell her, she dissociates. It doesn't even register with her. I don't have these discussions with her- it's a futile attempt and it only leads to her getting upset and me regretting saying anything.

BPD mother said to her care coordinator "I wish NW would just open up and tell me what is upsetting her. I don't understand why. ( why I have boundaries with her now). I think it had something to do with what something my relative said to her and I wish she'd just tell me"

It's a relatively new coordinator so she wondered if BPD mother wanted to have a nice talk with me to resolve issues. Well, I set the story straight, a discussion with her would not be effective.

If talking made any difference, it would have. I have made countless attempts to make things better. This discussion " I think it's something someone else said " is typical of her - it can't possibly be anything she did or said, right? I don't even want her to be remorseful or apologetic. All a talk does causes her to dissociate and respond in a verbal rage. I don't want to upset her.. or me.

BPD will recruit other people to validate her perception. For your mother, it's her perception of the Holy Spirit, but none of this includes awareness of your feelings or perspective and it doesn't.

[Couscous]

It’s sounds to me like you haven’t yet fully accepted that your parents are narcissistic and by definition, are self-absorbed and completely in denial about it, and perhaps part of you is still personalizing their behavior. Their inability to show interest in you and your life is part of the disorder and not a reflection of your inherent worthiness as a person.

However, accepting them they way they are does not mean you have to revert to the status-quo and resume spending lots of time in their company. For some people it’s doable to have “cordial contact” on a limited basis with a parent in order to be able to have contact with other relatives. It’s totally up to you to decide how much contact you are willing to have with them. Perhaps thinking of them as self-absorbed distant relatives would help lessen your reactivity towards them.

One book that I have found quite helpful on my journey of recovery is Children of the Self-Absorbed. I re-read parts of it about once a month. You might be able to find it your library.

[madeline7]

What I have learned over the years, and continue to do so, as my uBPDm is quite elderly is that:
You cannot reason with someone that is unreasonable
I "try" not to engage in anything that resembles reasoning, and when I do, she continues to be very adept at manipulation, even at her advanced age. My Mother's ability to twist things is very skillful, she has become a master at it, but I am no longer willing to be her dutiful servant.

[Notwendy]

You cannot reason with someone that is unreasonable

An important reminder to us because, the "invitation" to have a discussion that might lead to some understanding and resolution is something we wish for. Even the possibility is likely to make us want to try. Logically, I know that such a conversation would be impossible. Doesn't mean we don't wish for it but I also have learned that reasoning with someone who isn't reasonable doesn't work.

[Methuen]

This is just a thought, but it might be that your “radio silence” is working, and this is a signal that it’s working.

This is her attempt to draw you back into the chaos.  She is desperate for attention. You already know what the outcome would be.  

From her point of view, radio silence from you means she has less control over your relationship.  Drawing you back in would mean contact again, and  any kind of contact (including negative and high conflict) is better for her than no contact.  Contact means she can manage the situation her way, and control it, even if you don’t like it.

I’m no expert, but there is just soo much in that script that is messed up.  But this really jumped out at me:  

We have to confess that the things you have decided about us are true, even if they're not, if we want a relationship with you.

Like others have said, it is not possible to rationalize or reason, with an irrational person.  

Unless she develops awareness and gets therapy and works towards recovery, I would resist getting drawn back into her chaos, as it just results in more hurt for everyone.  

How are you doing?

[SaltyDawg]

Please realize that when someone who has BPD is splitting (sees you in an all negative light or all evil) for minutes, hours, perhaps a day or two they are a different person.

You cannot reason with that person, and you should not J.A.D.E.

Since your mother is reaching out to you, and she is religious, if I were in your shoes, I would do something like this:

"Mom, I hear what you are telling me." [without acknowledging if she is right or wrong, as that is her perception of what the truth is] "I ask you for your forgiveness" [just as Jesus has forgiven the sins of the world].  And if she asks you for forgiveness back, by all means acknowledge that. 

Keep in mind a person with BPD is like an alcoholic, and cannot control their illness, unless they realize that have it -- only then can they attempt to go to therapy to get themselves fixed.  They will lash out at the ones they care most about [counterintuitive].  If an alcoholic doesn't think they have a problem, they won't get it 'fixed' until they are forced to do so.  As long as you have other enablers (sibling) in her life, she won't see a need to fix it. For the time being, don't JADE, forgive her trespasses and ask her to forgive her perceived [if they are/aren't true from your perspective] trespasses that you have made.

Do maintain boundaries, and use other tools to maintain sanity in your life.

Good books to read, if you haven't already done so are:

Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life
Book by Margalis Fjelstad

Stop Walking on Eggshells
Book by Paul T. Mason and Randi Kreger

[beatricex]

hi WbF,
Thank you for sharing.  There's a whole lot of "we" in your mother's word salad, reinforcing that it's you against the family system.

It might even be you against your disordered mother and God...I mean, she has brought God into this conversation, which just confuses everything. [As I read what she wrote you, I thought: Please, Leave God out of this, thank you very much].  This isn't about the all mightly judging you, sending your Mom a signal, or gut punching you for not being a good daughter.  That she tried such as tactic is well...really?

This is your mother's words to you.  That's all they are.  My advice to you is, print out her words, crumple them up into a little ball and toss them into the trash.  Light them on fire, and observe the smoke curling slowly and laugh.  Let out a huge sigh of relief that while you tried to understand her, she didn't try to understand you, and she came to the table with weapons - using your entire family against you and with God on her side.  She brought your daughter's name to the table.  I often think people with BPD are emotional terrorists.  I mean, it's not normal what they do.

ugh

When we stop hoping our mothers will change and just see them for the ugly people they really are, I think it helps.  really. It has helped me.  Going on 9 years NC, hang in there, it does get better.
 
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