A few updates

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Continued from here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358276.0

Not a ton going on... fortunately? Just bits and pieces. It may be that because H and I are back in the "perpetrator" position on the Triangle, the situation has stabilized back in a familiar place. That's the only reason I can think of for why Mom and Stepdad haven't been more aggressive/unpredictable. Or, they're so wrapped up in their own relational dramas, or both. IDK.

...

The CPS investigation is still going on. They were last in contact with me in late May, asking about if H or I had any substance abuse or MH diagnoses, where we worked & had ever lived, etc. I haven't checked on the report lately but feel OK with not checking. It isn't due to complete for another month or so.

...

I was taking SD16 to school a week ago and was asking about her weekend (she did something a few hours out of town), and she mentioned that she drove up with "Name", so I asked if that was a school friend, and she said no, it's Mom's girlfriend who is really cool. Apparently that is the person we saw with Mom at SD16's school play a month or two ago. So, that's confirmed.

...

SD16 stayed both nights with us this past weekend, which was nice. No trying to make other plans or go back to Mom's. I am grateful for that and just have to take each weekend as it comes, not making it personal. She and H love scary movies, so it was funny -- they were watching a horror movie Sunday night, and I kept going out to check on her, and finally she was like "even though I sound terrified, I'm actually enjoying this and I'm fine". It was a good reality check for me -- I don't need to manage her experiences, she can handle it.

...

H and I have a call with SD18 once a week or so. She has sounded happy and relaxed, which is nice. We just talk about what she and her SO are doing, what foods they're cooking and trying, stuff like that -- nothing heavy.

...

As unrelated as this sounds, I typically have bland dreams (usually about stuff we have already done, like driving in the car, grocery shopping, going to work, or tropey stuff like "I'm back in high school but don't know my class schedule"). Sunday night, though, I had a doozy, which I think might be related to the kids and this whole situation, but I'm not sure how. Also related is that many years ago -- maybe 10 years ago -- SD18 told me about a dream she had had, that she told her mom. The dream was that SD18 was running through the forest being chased by a bear, and I was there, but I was sitting on a pillow. Somehow between her and her mom, the interpretation was something like "kells76 doesn't really help SD18, kells76 doesn't really do anything". I'd recently told that dream to someone, who commented -- so who is the bear? Why didn't Mom want to say who the bear was? With the implication -- maybe it was Mom who was chasing SD18 in the dream, and maybe it's good that I wasn't chasing SD18.

Anyway, all that to say -- the other night I had the kind of dream that Freudian analysts, um, dream about hearing. The dream was that my therapist had something to show me in the sky in the woods, like a bird or a constellation or something. It must have been fall or winter, because the sky was bright light gray and there were few or no leaves on the white trunk trees. Everything was kind of light gray/brown. She climbed a tree and I followed her. Then, we saw a bear. I think it was on the ground originally, but then it started climbing the tree next to ours. I wasn't terrified, but had an "academic" sense of "I should go through the checklist of what you do when a bear approaches -- make yourself look bigger, maybe?" We held out our hands in a "stop" position but the bear kept coming, so I took my hands, turned them palm out and fingers to the center, and pressed them on the bear's eyes. In my dream, I could physically feel the bear and its eyes moving. Then, the bear moved past me. Apparently it was a female bear who had recently given birth, because it then delivered the placenta, which distracted it, and it went down to the ground and ate it.

So.... I think I'm processing something, but haven't landed on it yet.

[kells76]

Continued from here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358276.0

Not a ton going on... fortunately? Just bits and pieces. It may be that because H and I are back in the "perpetrator" position on the Triangle, the situation has stabilized back in a familiar place. That's the only reason I can think of for why Mom and Stepdad haven't been more aggressive/unpredictable. Or, they're so wrapped up in their own relational dramas, or both. IDK.

...

The CPS investigation is still going on. They were last in contact with me in late May, asking about if H or I had any substance abuse or MH diagnoses, where we worked & had ever lived, etc. I haven't checked on the report lately but feel OK with not checking. It isn't due to complete for another month or so.

...

I was taking SD16 to school a week ago and was asking about her weekend (she did something a few hours out of town), and she mentioned that she drove up with "Name", so I asked if that was a school friend, and she said no, it's Mom's girlfriend who is really cool. Apparently that is the person we saw with Mom at SD16's school play a month or two ago. So, that's confirmed.

...

SD16 stayed both nights with us this past weekend, which was nice. No trying to make other plans or go back to Mom's. I am grateful for that and just have to take each weekend as it comes, not making it personal. She and H love scary movies, so it was funny -- they were watching a horror movie Sunday night, and I kept going out to check on her, and finally she was like "even though I sound terrified, I'm actually enjoying this and I'm fine". It was a good reality check for me -- I don't need to manage her experiences, she can handle it.

...

H and I have a call with SD18 once a week or so. She has sounded happy and relaxed, which is nice. We just talk about what she and her SO are doing, what foods they're cooking and trying, stuff like that -- nothing heavy.

...

As unrelated as this sounds, I typically have bland dreams (usually about stuff we have already done, like driving in the car, grocery shopping, going to work, or tropey stuff like "I'm back in high school but don't know my class schedule"). Sunday night, though, I had a doozy, which I think might be related to the kids and this whole situation, but I'm not sure how. Also related is that many years ago -- maybe 10 years ago -- SD18 told me about a dream she had had, that she told her mom. The dream was that SD18 was running through the forest being chased by a bear, and I was there, but I was sitting on a pillow. Somehow between her and her mom, the interpretation was something like "kells76 doesn't really help SD18, kells76 doesn't really do anything". I'd recently told that dream to someone, who commented -- so who is the bear? Why didn't Mom want to say who the bear was? With the implication -- maybe it was Mom who was chasing SD18 in the dream, and maybe it's good that I wasn't chasing SD18.

Anyway, all that to say -- the other night I had the kind of dream that Freudian analysts, um, dream about hearing. The dream was that my therapist had something to show me in the sky in the woods, like a bird or a constellation or something. It must have been fall or winter, because the sky was bright light gray and there were few or no leaves on the white trunk trees. Everything was kind of light gray/brown. She climbed a tree and I followed her. Then, we saw a bear. I think it was on the ground originally, but then it started climbing the tree next to ours. I wasn't terrified, but had an "academic" sense of "I should go through the checklist of what you do when a bear approaches -- make yourself look bigger, maybe?" We held out our hands in a "stop" position but the bear kept coming, so I took my hands, turned them palm out and fingers to the center, and pressed them on the bear's eyes. In my dream, I could physically feel the bear and its eyes moving. Then, the bear moved past me. Apparently it was a female bear who had recently given birth, because it then delivered the placenta, which distracted it, and it went down to the ground and ate it.

So.... I think I'm processing something, but haven't landed on it yet.

[jaded7]

Continued from here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358276.0

Not a ton going on... fortunately? Just bits and pieces. It may be that because H and I are back in the "perpetrator" position on the Triangle, the situation has stabilized back in a familiar place. That's the only reason I can think of for why Mom and Stepdad haven't been more aggressive/unpredictable. Or, they're so wrapped up in their own relational dramas, or both. IDK.

...

The CPS investigation is still going on. They were last in contact with me in late May, asking about if H or I had any substance abuse or MH diagnoses, where we worked & had ever lived, etc. I haven't checked on the report lately but feel OK with not checking. It isn't due to complete for another month or so.

...

I was taking SD16 to school a week ago and was asking about her weekend (she did something a few hours out of town), and she mentioned that she drove up with "Name", so I asked if that was a school friend, and she said no, it's Mom's girlfriend who is really cool. Apparently that is the person we saw with Mom at SD16's school play a month or two ago. So, that's confirmed.

...

SD16 stayed both nights with us this past weekend, which was nice. No trying to make other plans or go back to Mom's. I am grateful for that and just have to take each weekend as it comes, not making it personal. She and H love scary movies, so it was funny -- they were watching a horror movie Sunday night, and I kept going out to check on her, and finally she was like "even though I sound terrified, I'm actually enjoying this and I'm fine". It was a good reality check for me -- I don't need to manage her experiences, she can handle it.

...

H and I have a call with SD18 once a week or so. She has sounded happy and relaxed, which is nice. We just talk about what she and her SO are doing, what foods they're cooking and trying, stuff like that -- nothing heavy.

...

As unrelated as this sounds, I typically have bland dreams (usually about stuff we have already done, like driving in the car, grocery shopping, going to work, or tropey stuff like "I'm back in high school but don't know my class schedule"). Sunday night, though, I had a doozy, which I think might be related to the kids and this whole situation, but I'm not sure how. Also related is that many years ago -- maybe 10 years ago -- SD18 told me about a dream she had had, that she told her mom. The dream was that SD18 was running through the forest being chased by a bear, and I was there, but I was sitting on a pillow. Somehow between her and her mom, the interpretation was something like "kells76 doesn't really help SD18, kells76 doesn't really do anything". I'd recently told that dream to someone, who commented -- so who is the bear? Why didn't Mom want to say who the bear was? With the implication -- maybe it was Mom who was chasing SD18 in the dream, and maybe it's good that I wasn't chasing SD18.

Anyway, all that to say -- the other night I had the kind of dream that Freudian analysts, um, dream about hearing. The dream was that my therapist had something to show me in the sky in the woods, like a bird or a constellation or something. It must have been fall or winter, because the sky was bright light gray and there were few or no leaves on the white trunk trees. Everything was kind of light gray/brown. She climbed a tree and I followed her. Then, we saw a bear. I think it was on the ground originally, but then it started climbing the tree next to ours. I wasn't terrified, but had an "academic" sense of "I should go through the checklist of what you do when a bear approaches -- make yourself look bigger, maybe?" We held out our hands in a "stop" position but the bear kept coming, so I took my hands, turned them palm out and fingers to the center, and pressed them on the bear's eyes. In my dream, I could physically feel the bear and its eyes moving. Then, the bear moved past me. Apparently it was a female bear who had recently given birth, because it then delivered the placenta, which distracted it, and it went down to the ground and ate it.

So.... I think I'm processing something, but haven't landed on it yet.

Kells...it's nice to hear that things are going relatively smoothly for you, and you were able to spend some good time with SD and watch her enjoy some movies with your H.

The dream.....my goodness. Have you consulted any dream interpretation guides? The part that your therapist had something to show you! And it was winter, and the bear approaching you. I know nothing about dreams, but it seems there are some archetypes there?

You're so helpful to everyone here, I'm glad that things are relatively calm for you now.

[livednlearned]

Substance abuse or MH issues? Huh. I wonder if that's just checklist stuff or if mom and/or stepdad made an effort to level the playing field?

I wouldn't be surprised if things are relatively quiet because of the other relationships like you suggested. I mean, the conditions in the house kinda suggest benign neglect of the kids in general. Whatever charge mom and stepdad got from triangulating seems to have run its course. Maybe because SD18 found a path to independence? In the logic of some BPD families, it tracks that the emerging independence of teens might parallel parental interest in other relationships. But who knows. It's good you don't have a lot of boulders rolling your way even if it's hard to vacate the lookout...

The dream you describe is fascinating given all that's been going on!

[GaGrl]

The dream...

Gestalt dream theory posits that everything and everyone in your dream actually is You, a manifestation of you or a part or aspect of you.

So, you might think about what aspect of you is represented by the therapist and by the bear.

[kells76]

The dream.....my goodness. Have you consulted any dream interpretation guides? The part that your therapist had something to show you! And it was winter, and the bear approaching you. I know nothing about dreams, but it seems there are some archetypes there?

I haven't yet, but I may. I've sort of settled on "the dream means what I decide that it means", vs feeling a need to hunt for a mystical meaning from beyond.

My T was 100% in T mode (asking "what do you think it means"  ) but did offer that what she typically focuses on is how you feel during and then when you wake up from the dream. For me, within the dream, it felt completely clear and well-defined, like each role and piece of scenery and prop was in total focus, and also emotionally neutral; and, when I woke up, I didn't have any lingering or unresolved or upsetting feelings. Again, total clarity. But clarity about what, not sure yet.

Substance abuse or MH issues? Huh. I wonder if that's just checklist stuff or if mom and/or stepdad made an effort to level the playing field?

No idea, but if I go through this again, I'll let you know if it's on the checklist 

I wouldn't be surprised if things are relatively quiet because of the other relationships like you suggested. I mean, the conditions in the house kinda suggest benign neglect of the kids in general. Whatever charge mom and stepdad got from triangulating seems to have run its course. Maybe because SD18 found a path to independence? In the logic of some BPD families, it tracks that the emerging independence of teens might parallel parental interest in other relationships. But who knows. It's good you don't have a lot of boulders rolling your way even if it's hard to vacate the lookout...

In the sense of -- when the teen becomes more independent, she is less available to partner the parent, so the parent looks elsewhere for that external support/sense of self?

Gestalt dream theory posits that everything and everyone in your dream actually is You, a manifestation of you or a part or aspect of you.

So, you might think about what aspect of you is represented by the therapist and by the bear.

That's been interesting for me to chew on. I haven't landed anywhere yet, but it was such a clear-cut dream with such a limited "cast" (me, my T, the bear) and "props" (the trees, the placenta) and even color scheme (gray, brown, etc) that writing it out and maybe free-associating or speculating could be helpful.

It just struck me that in the dream, my T was telling me to look at/see something, while I was preventing the bear from looking/seeing.

...

DHS called and they are closing the investigation. The worker said that neglect was Unfounded and threat of harm was Undetermined.

She said that whatever the reason, even if Mom's house did a marathon cleaning session, the house looked OK. She said it wasn't a huge issue that we did not have mutual contacts more recent than a few years, that wasn't the "make it or break it issue". She said it was kind of an issue that SD18 is an adult now, as CPS services don't apply to her. What she recommended is reminding the kids they can share stuff with us and they can live with us if they don't want to live in the conditions at Mom's. She said it can be an issue when teens bring up stuff from the longer-ago past, and/or bring stuff up from a while ago and comment "but it isn't really bothering me now". She recommended calling the screening services as soon as possible whenever I hear or observe something that could be a concern, and letting screening assess it. So it was kind of an immediacy issue.

[livednlearned]

In the sense of -- when the teen becomes more independent, she is less available to partner the parent, so the parent looks elsewhere for that external support/sense of self?

Yes, exactly. At least that's been my observation, mostly with H's ex (who started an affair when her oldest child became a teen). We also noticed that the neglect/abuse flared and or shifted to the next child as the older one more or less became independent. I think SD30 fared the best because there were 2 other kids at home for mom to target, and an affair partner. When SD27 went to college (with severe emotional and psychiatric issues), BPD mom shifted her focus to SD24. He's the one that feels most like a rescue mission, which is saying a lot because SD27 required a lot of rescuing. Our hypothesis is that BPD mom needs SD24 at home so she has a built-in triangulation in the house with her now husband, so she sabotages SD24 when he tries to do anything that hints of independence.

DHS called and they are closing the investigation. The worker said that neglect was Unfounded and threat of harm was Undetermined.

Does SD18 know?

[kells76]

Yes, exactly. At least that's been my observation, mostly with H's ex (who started an affair when her oldest child became a teen). We also noticed that the neglect/abuse flared and or shifted to the next child as the older one more or less became independent. I think SD30 fared the best because there were 2 other kids at home for mom to target, and an affair partner. When SD27 went to college (with severe emotional and psychiatric issues), BPD mom shifted her focus to SD24. He's the one that feels most like a rescue mission, which is saying a lot because SD27 required a lot of rescuing. Our hypothesis is that BPD mom needs SD24 at home so she has a built-in triangulation in the house with her now husband, so she sabotages SD24 when he tries to do anything that hints of independence.

That'll be interesting to see if Mom starts to focus on B11 that way -- maybe "allowing" SD16 some independence as long as B11 "will never leave her". I hadn't thought about that before, because SD18 had been the focus for so long.

Does SD18 know?

I just got the call today so I'm not sure. I'll talk to H later today and see if we want to update SD18 on our own. DHS does have SD18's email address.

Also, apparently in our state Unfounded equals Unsubstantiated. I may call the worker back to clarify, because she did use the two different terms for the two different areas.

[livednlearned]

Also, apparently in our state Unfounded equals Unsubstantiated. I may call the worker back to clarify, because she did use the two different terms for the two different areas.

I'm trying to imagine how I'd feel if I were receiving that DHS report ... on one hand there's all this emphasis on mandatory reporting, which (at least for me) escalated my anxiety but didn't make me feel like (then) S11 was necessarily being protected.

Our situation was DHS-adjacent so not quite the same as what you went through. My ex was having what I discovered later was a full-blown psychotic episode while S11 was there. When I called 911, I was encouraged to let them send law enforcement for a well-child check, but they couldn't guarantee an outcome in which (then) S11 came home with me. So then I had to think through the consequences of sending some random officer to the house, who got to decide if the situation was safe following no criteria except they would know when they got there. It was like they were saying Trust Us, let us go in with a wrecking ball when what I needed was a surgical tool and some assurance that people would err on S11's safety, even if things weren't clear in that moment.

It also seems like people who are mandatory reporters don't always think through how a report that comes back unfounded might play out in our families. On the upside, there is a paper trail in case more stuff happens. Then the narrative would be, "This is the second time, we're seeing some kind of pattern."

But in the short-term it's so anxiety-producing with no clear outcomes.

If you look at this episode as a way for SD18 to escalate her concerns so that she could leave on her trip with some peace of mind, it seems like that objective was accomplished. In terms of what could DHS actionably do given that mom and stepdad were seemingly competent enough to tidy up, at a minimum that's better for SD16 and B11 even if it's temporary. And oddly enough, even if stepdad feels vindicated, I would be surprised if he isn't on high alert in some way, even if he can't consistently behave himself. He just learned that the girls are not afraid to get outside help.