Self esteem and body image

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I am taking part in a research study for the Psych department at the University where I work.  We get emails on a daily basis regarding participation in research studies, which I always check out to see if any interest me.  I found one regarding women and their body image, and applied to see if they would accept me - well, they did, so I'm in week 4 of the study, which has been fascinating and a growing experience for me.

We are given homework assignments each week, and then discuss it along with doing role playing exercises in the sessions.  The discussions are really candid, and have shown me a variety of issues that women have regarding their body image that aren't so different from mine which has been a comfort in itself - kind of like this site when you read anothers post that is so similar to what you could have written yourself.

I have come to be fairly comfortable with my body image, now at age 48, and know there is a lot more to a person than how they look on the outside, but it's been a very long road to get here, and I have to admit, I still feel less than happy with some parts of me.  I think that's pretty normal, from what I gather, which is partially why I wanted to address it here, on Personal Inventory.

My body type is ok... . there are some nice parts of me, physically, and others I am working on.  I work out a lot, and eat well, and there is nothing that anyone would look at me and say 'eew!'.  However, it does raise the question of why, we as a society, are so drawn to the ideal that we tend to think less of ourselves if we don't look like the women (or men) on the covers of magazines.  

To bring this around to where I am going with this thread, I know that part of why I was so drawn to my exNPDbf was that he had a phenomenal body and something about the fact that he would choose to be with me made me feel like I was more worthy.  Well, of course that was a fallacy, but it was a feeling I had.  I have to ask myself why this boosted my self esteem, and why now, even to this day, I still am  concerned with my body image.

It's kind of interesting that I do feel in other ways I am attractive - as I don't wear make-up or dye my hair.  I am very content with how I look that way, and like I said, do like my legs, arms, butt ( ), but still have issues with other parts of my body.  I see some women who are much heavier than me who have great confidence - how does that happen?

Just thought I'd throw this out there and see what I get back.  

[Want2know]

I am taking part in a research study for the Psych department at the University where I work.  We get emails on a daily basis regarding participation in research studies, which I always check out to see if any interest me.  I found one regarding women and their body image, and applied to see if they would accept me - well, they did, so I'm in week 4 of the study, which has been fascinating and a growing experience for me.

We are given homework assignments each week, and then discuss it along with doing role playing exercises in the sessions.  The discussions are really candid, and have shown me a variety of issues that women have regarding their body image that aren't so different from mine which has been a comfort in itself - kind of like this site when you read anothers post that is so similar to what you could have written yourself.

I have come to be fairly comfortable with my body image, now at age 48, and know there is a lot more to a person than how they look on the outside, but it's been a very long road to get here, and I have to admit, I still feel less than happy with some parts of me.  I think that's pretty normal, from what I gather, which is partially why I wanted to address it here, on Personal Inventory.

My body type is ok... . there are some nice parts of me, physically, and others I am working on.  I work out a lot, and eat well, and there is nothing that anyone would look at me and say 'eew!'.  However, it does raise the question of why, we as a society, are so drawn to the ideal that we tend to think less of ourselves if we don't look like the women (or men) on the covers of magazines.  

To bring this around to where I am going with this thread, I know that part of why I was so drawn to my exNPDbf was that he had a phenomenal body and something about the fact that he would choose to be with me made me feel like I was more worthy.  Well, of course that was a fallacy, but it was a feeling I had.  I have to ask myself why this boosted my self esteem, and why now, even to this day, I still am  concerned with my body image.

It's kind of interesting that I do feel in other ways I am attractive - as I don't wear make-up or dye my hair.  I am very content with how I look that way, and like I said, do like my legs, arms, butt ( ), but still have issues with other parts of my body.  I see some women who are much heavier than me who have great confidence - how does that happen?

Just thought I'd throw this out there and see what I get back.  

[Suzn]

That's really cool to be part of this study W2K!

I've dealt with this issue myself. I've never much liked having my picture taken because of my body image issues, only a few of myself have I ever liked. As my confidence and self worth grew this issue kind of took a back seat. I'm me (body and all) and today I'm ok with what the good Lord gave me.

I'm reading a new book that has some explanation about how we succumb to this issue as a society. Hope you don't mind if I share it.

Swimmer's Body Illusion

As essayist and trader Nassim Taleb resolved to do something about the stubborn extra pounds he'd been carrying, he contemplated taking up various sports. However, joggers seemed scrawny and unhappy, and body builders looked broad and stupid, and tennis players? Oh, so upper class! Swimmers, though, appealed to him with their well built, streamlined bodies. He decided to sign up at his local swimming pool and to train hard twice a week.

A short while later, he realized that he had succumbed to an illusion. Professional swimmers don't have perfect bodies because they train extensively. Rather, they are good swimmers because of their physiques. How their bodies are designed is a factor for selection and not the result of their activities. Similarly, female models advertise cosmetics and, thus, many female consumers believe these products make you beautiful. But it is not the cosmetics that make these women model-like. Quite simply, the models are born attractive, and only for this reason are they candidates for cosmetics advertising. As with swimmer's bodies, beauty is a factor for selection and not the result. ~ The Art of Thinking Clearly by Rolf Dobelli

I see some women who are much heavier than me who have great confidence - how does that happen?

It is mho these women have self worth in tact and... . it's all about attitude.  

[zaqsert]

That sure is cool that you were able to participate in the study, Want2know.

Suzn, that's a really good quote from the book.  Thanks for sharing it.  Funny how easily we can lose sight of which is the cause and which the effect.

This thread also reminds me of the Dove project that GreenMango posted over in the Senior Member Lounge.  In case you haven't seen it:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=199673.0

[Leaf]

I know that part of why I was so drawn to my exNPDbf was that he had a phenomenal body and something about the fact that he would choose to be with me made me feel like I was more worthy.  Well, of course that was a fallacy, but it was a feeling I had.  I have to ask myself why this boosted my self esteem, and why now, even to this day, I still am  concerned with my body image.

Great question, Want2know, same here. I realize I've been wondering about this vaguely in the back of my mind for some time, but your post brought it to light. I've been thinking about it for a couple of hours and what I've come up with is some FOO stuff that might explain it to some extent, at least in my case.

In my family we were the extreme opposite of touchy-feely, especially my mother. I'm so unused to being physical that I have woman friends who kiss all their friends on the cheeks when they come in and then just say 'hi' when I come in, because all that kissing and hugging stuff doesn't come natural to me. On the other hand I'm the greatest fan of physical contact in a relationship with a man. It's as if the lack of closeness and intimacy I experienced in my childhood needs to be repaired in a romantic relationship. One thing I loved about the relationship with my BPD/NPDxbf was that we were always touching and holding hands.

I think I care about my physical attraction because that's what makes men want to touch me! But taking good care of my health and looks is also a perfectionist trait of mine. I'm always in the presence of a job well done. And doing things well was what made me come closest to expressions of love in my childhood.

My ex was very goodlooking and very potent looking and had a great body and I think what you said also goes for me, his looks made me feel more worthy.

I think his looks made me feel more worthy of being TOUCHED. If someone that goodlooking with such a great body chooses me as his girlfriend I must be very worthy of being touched. I apparently have to prove that to myself due to childhood issues.

What I've been wondering about lately is why I get so disgusted with men who are obviously attracted to me when I don't find them attractive. I could be flattered, but I'm disgusted and insulted that they might even think they have a chance. And they're not ugly at all, they just look older than me or they're too skinny or something. Haven't thought that one through yet, but must have something to do with the above.

[arabella]

A short while later, he realized that he had succumbed to an illusion. Professional swimmers don't have perfect bodies because they train extensively. Rather, they are good swimmers because of their physiques. How their bodies are designed is a factor for selection and not the result of their activities. Similarly, female models advertise cosmetics and, thus, many female consumers believe these products make you beautiful. But it is not the cosmetics that make these women model-like. Quite simply, the models are born attractive, and only for this reason are they candidates for cosmetics advertising. As with swimmer's bodies, beauty is a factor for selection and not the result. ~ The Art of Thinking Clearly by Rolf Dobelli

I have to disagree to some extent. I'm a bit insulted actually. It implies that being an athlete is the same as being a model. It really dismisses the hard work that professional swimmers (or any other athlete) put into their sport. (As an aside, it also takes more than just good looks to be a successful model.) Bear in mind too that many athletic 'body designs' could have been adapted to other sports - the particular sport really does shape an individual. Ever see an elite level athlete who has switched sports? The difference in physique is often quite noticeable.

People say things like this to me all the time - "oh, sure, you're good at this, but that's just because you're a natural athlete" or "oh you can eat whatever you want, you just have a high metabolism". And it's offensive. Because I am NOT a natural athlete, and I spent most of my life being rather overweight. I work really hard to be in good shape and I don't want my self-discipline, effort, and time to be brushed off. Self-esteem is more than skin deep and it is damaging not to give ourselves, or others, credit for the hard work we put in. I'm proud of the things I've taught my body to do and I don't appreciate having my success minimized. (I'm also a realist and I do agree that there's a genetic factor too. I'm never going to dominate on pro volleyball circuit - I'm way too short!)

[Want2know]

Thanks all for your responses. 

We finished up the last session on Tuesday with a few 'exercises'.  The first one was to write a letter to your younger self and try to provide them some insight into how they can avoid feeling like they have to fit some body shape norm as they grow up. 

That was interesting.  I found myself bringing up a specific situation I endured when I was in 6th grade, and tried putting it in perspective for 'Lil' Want2Know' saying that kids can be cruel, and most likely they made fun of you because it made them feel better, better because they were hurting underneath and had their own self-esteem issues - perhaps not with their body image - but due to other possible reasons, ie. feeling inadequate academically.

[Surnia]

Very interesting thread.

I came a long way. My self esteem and how I lived in my body was very very low. Today I feel most of the time okay. Sometimes I think it is easier when you are older. So to say: I am out of the race. 

Doing things like sports or workouts or just physical work always helped me to be more connected with my body in a good manner.

I had more than one rs with men who are a bit overweighted. Looks like I was with myself more critical than with partners. What I really hate is gaining weight while I am in a unhappy situation. Like my past marriage, I gained nearly 10 kilos!

[Rose Tiger]

I gained 20 pounds during my last marriage, ugh, just added fuel to the devalue fire.  The only other times were when I was pregnant and when I was 16 and went to live with my dad in Seattle.  I still have stretch marks on my knees from gaining weight so fast at that age.

I grew up with playboy magazines all over the house so the image of the 'ideal' woman was stuck in my head.  I was a toothpick, so very skinny and then when I shot up to 5'11' and towering over the boys.  I was so jealous of the cute 5'2" cheerleaders with their cute bodies and cute boyfriends.  Lord, could I ever catch a break on any hope of feeling good about myself over anything?  I remember sixth grade, parents just divorced, I'm stuck with my older sisters' hand me downs and wearing dresses that barely covered my bum with this incredibly long daddy long leg stick legs... . and all those southern belles (montegomery alabama).  They would look at me, talk to each other and laugh.  Lovely.  And here I was, a child with no emotional support, trying to raise myself.  Running into the kitchen after playing outside and my mother wrinkling her nose and saying you stink, you should be wearing deoderant.  The shame seemed to be with my every waking moment.  Asss.  Makes me cuss!

So when I evolved into a model-esque physique and men would tell me they thought I was beautiful, I'd think they were complete idiots.  I did get a bit of a high walking into a high school reunion and I was svelte, that felt good.  I like being tall at work, studies show that tall woment do better for some odd reason.  I'm still working on losing the r/s wight.  Still working on why I use food as a self soother.  Because I want to look good in clothes again, like I did when ex first loved me.  I still see it as something that gives me value.  Inner child is not too pleased about that but I want it.  I figure it will help with my confidence issues.  I still want men to see me as attractive.  It's confusing because I shouldn't be looking to to others to define my worth.

[Cumulus]

Isn't some (all?) of it about self love? When I think about people in my life who I love I think of how beautiful they are. I don't see the wrinkles, poochy tummies or funky calves. It's because I see them with eyes of love. So why do I see my own wrinkles, poochy tummy and funky calves?

RT I so wanted daddy long leg stick legs. I got ham hocks 

[Rose Tiger]

And I always wanted voluptuous curves.    I see my imperfections and feel that shame, ugh.  Stupid critical voices.  Stupid check out magazines of those air touched people that don't look like that without hours of hair, make up and touched up photos.

Still want to get back to my old weight though... .

You are right about how we don't see those things on the people we love.  Interesting!

[Want2know]

I'm tall for a woman, too.  5' 9" - not too tall, but have super long legs, which a lot of people might think is good, but it's kind of disproportionate, to the point that my 6th grade (male) gym teacher yelled across the softball field as I was running to first base "(Last name), you run like an ostrich" - in front of my whole class.  Not cool on his part.  That, unfortunately, made an impact on someone in the geeky stage heading into jr. high school.  So not cool.

A lot of the research project was geared towards talking about how the slim ideal, like we see in those air brushed ads, really has an impact on society.  I went back to my home town, suburb outside NYC, and walked through the mall to kill some time, and they had kiosks in the middle of the mall that were advertising liposuction.  I got so mad, as I was thinking about all the young girls walking through that mall, and seeing that ad, and figuring that it was normal to have that done.

The sessions were asking us to discuss the 'costs' that working towards this ideal can have for teenagers.  They also had us doing what they were calling 'body activism' activities to get the message out that you are beautiful, no matter you look like on the outside, much to what cumulus was saying.  So, this Tuesday, our final 'project' as a team is to go out put stickies on the mirror of the bathrooms in the buildings on our very large campus, with self-affirming messages.  Simple notes like 'smile - you're beautiful'.  Good way to break up the work day. 

[Rose Tiger]

Have you seen this W2W?  I am so impressed with this singer.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA2k79EGHbc&list=RD02TZFQgqhNoEI

[Clearmind]

The last hook for me re: my ex was his looks - I felt like cinderella at the ball when I was with him - despite the fact we were so very incompatible in every other way my own self worth was very low that with him I felt worthy. I have also worked hard on moving past that and I feel so much better about myself now.

I also had uncles when I was growing up that criticised my appearance - a lot. So I know where it comes from. In the past I have spent so much money on clothes, cosmetics etc for the very reason that I was so unhappy with myself. It extends so more past the emotional, poor body image can be a finanical strain as well.

I love that many magazines now are publishing celebrities with no make up. Then I think about Kim Khardashian who was blatantly bullied by the media for her pregnant body! The media really do fill our heads with trash self talk.

In Australia they are banning cosmetic surgery for under 18's because its so prolific - quite scary really. Because of the criticism I received as a child my mother and I both had nose operations - me before her otherwise we could have got a family discount  . However in reality it saddened me when Mum decided to get hers done - I think she then felt she needed it given mine was like hers. We are however happy with the result and yes it did increase my confidence - when by rights it shouldnt have mattered.

Now I'm pregnant - so its a whole different thought process with body image and appearance. Yes I've put on weight, yes I have a belly and my butt is wider - but I love it! I see it as a triumph.

[Surnia]

Yes, there is the slim ideal from the media with all her anorexic models. When I am sitting in the bus and I hear 12 year old girls and boys discussing her weight loss or gain... . I am really concerned.

For me there is a clear distinction between in a good shape and too thin. And I think my problems with my body image is not so much from media, more from my parents... .

As for different body images: I do a lot of swimming recently and its a public pool which is used from a wide range of people. So each time in the shower I see a lot of different women naked. This is amazing. So many different formes and curves, many pregnant women. Its a bit of a T session when I am there in the shower... .

Hey girls, what about muscles and women?

Because I adore it, to have some muscles and I like to see it. Okay, not like Serena Williams. Thats far to much. More the type beach volley or some other female tennis player... . My exH was always a bit suspicious I could be gay 

[Want2know]

When you become aware of it all, you start to see how the smallest comments can be weaved into this web of self image and what someone should look like.  How many times do you see someone on the street who is wearing something a bit tight and ill-fitting that you make a mental comment about their looks, forgetting there is a lovely person inside.  Or when you tell your girlfriend that 'you look good in those pants', which could mean 'you don't always look good in some of the pants you wear'.  Just the simplest things add up and create a focus that maybe is too invested in looks.  Not to say that you shouldn't compliment your friend if they look nice, but maintaining a balance in compliments is important - "you are so sweet for thinking of me and calling to see if I was ok" and "you rock those pants".  

I think that the motivation behind wanting to have a good physical presence is key.  Are you doing it to be healthy or are you doing because you don't feel good about how you look?  That's a hard one.  I'd say both for me, and which one is more important?  My logical answer is 'health' and it feels really good (swimming/yoga), but my emotional answer is to look good.

Surnia, your mention of the shower being a T session is funny.  I really had to get over myself when I go to the gym.  I agree, there are so many body types there that you can't help but feel ok.

RT, Christina A. has a few songs that are very empowering - 'Beautiful' is another one.

"You are beautiful, no matter what they say... . words can't bring us down."  

[Rose Tiger]

That song!  OMG!  I love this singer!

[Want2know]

That song!  OMG!  I love this singer!

Killer voice - great lyrics... . here's one I was just listening to now: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM4DpShc1wI

You reminded me of that album - these songs are very fitting for this topic.

We finished up our final 'project' today and posted notes on the mirrors in the bathrooms.  I quoted from this song on one of them.  

Did a follow up questionnaire and will do them over the course of the next 3 years for their study.

Pretty darn cool thing to be a part of.

So, what are you waiting for?  Soar!

[Rose Tiger]

Oh.My.Gosh!  I love her!

Check this out!  You are gonna DIE!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PstrAfoMKlc

[Rose Tiger]

I am so goose bumpy!   

[Want2know]

I am so goose bumpy!   

  I do believe she writes much of her own lyrics, which tells me she's been through a lot in her life as far as relationships and self image issues.  Some of her back story is that she had some very serious issues with her father, I believe he abused her mother, and she became estranged from him.  That's my recollection.

Listening to those songs is similar to self-talk, telling yourself that you are good enough and need to follow your own path and love yourself no matter what.  That's why I like them.  Not the typical music I listen to as far as it being kind of mainstream pop... . it is her empowering message that I like (and her voice).  It's a little odd that she exploits her body a lot, yet has those strong songs... . not sure what that's about, but I try not to focus on that part much.  I like to think she's saying - this may be who I am, but you're ok, too. 

[Cumulus]

Muscles on women? Absolutely. We should all be doing some kind of strength training. It maintains muscle mass as we age ( bonus, burn more metabolic calories ), helps maintain bone density and many strength exercises require agility and balance. Less chance for falls as we age. The women I see in their 80s and even 90s that are doing well are often a combination of good genetics and hard work, think old fashioned farm wives. Keep active girls. It's our best chance to avoid the old folks home.

[Rose Tiger]

Dancing is good aerobic exercise, too. Swimming is great for working out so many muscles.  I've been taking the stairs at work, up to the fifth floor, I have to stop on four to catch my breath so I don't walk into work huffing and puffing.

Youtube is so great for dancing music, Earth Wind and Fire songs.  A fun thing to check out, go grab the top 100 billboard songs of the year you were 10.  Start finding them on youtube, it brings back so many memories! 

This is a great song to jam to or clean house:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOY7lsBVpo  (the video is about the most hilarious thing you'll ever see)

I was reading about Christina Aguilera on wikipedia.  She went through childhood bullying, abusive father, the whole nine yards.  Maybe she went through the 'sexy' period to prove that she was beautiful.  I remember she recently gained some weight and was walking proud.  She is so young, only 32.  Burlesque was on tv the other day, go Cher! 

[Want2know]

I remember she recently gained some weight and was walking proud.  

That is how it should be - no matter what you look like.

Exercise and eating right is important for health, but to feel bad or less of a person because you don't fit some ideal norm that our society has developed, is not right.  Very hard to keep your emotional health up if that is something that one looks at as the healthy ideal.

Keep active girls. It's our best chance to avoid the old folks home.

 Very true!  RT mentions about taking the stairs instead of an elevator.  I chose a parking garage a bit further from my work, knowing it would keep me walking every day.  I've also heard suggestions like parking your car farther away from the store in the parking lot - not only does this keep you a little more active, but it reduces the stress of wanting to find that space right next to the front door.  

Also, as we age, it's important to keep some meat on your bones, as there are studies that suggest those who don't, have more issues with maintaining good bone density, similar to what cumulus is referring to with muscle mass.

[mcc503764]

This is a great topic and one that I personally find the most applicable to my xBPD!

She was bulimic, hospitalized for the eating disorder 2x... . (this is what she said anyhow.)  But I can see how a negative self image makes us susceptible to their treatment of us!

I have personally struggled with self esteem / worth my entire life.  So personally for me, the fact that my xBPD would even have given me the time of day, was a pretty exciting time for me!  But, for as good as I thought it was, it obviously blinded me to the field of blazing  that were around me!

Thus, enter the past four years of my life... .

But at the end of the day, it was MY self esteem / image that made me susceptible to her treatment of me.  So, that's MY focus now!  I am not ugly, by any  means, but I am a work in progress to get myself to where I want to be!  It's happening and it's exciting!  It's a whole new way of life for ME and it feels good to finally just take care of MYSELF!

Realizing the self-importance is vital to every aspect of your life!  Developing confidence in oneself, setting boundaries, and not being afraid to enforce them.  Growing a backbone as I like to call it!  It feels different, but it's quite empowering.

As for the x... . who knows?  I believed too many of her lies for too long!  It's quite insulting how I allowed her to walk all over me, but I learned.  It was the hardest lesson of my life, but I got it now!

MCC

[Want2know]

I have personally struggled with self esteem / worth my entire life.  So personally for me, the fact that my xBPD would even have given me the time of day, was a pretty exciting time for me!  But, for as good as I thought it was, it obviously blinded me to the field of blazing  that were around me!

This seems to be a pretty common theme here.

Regarding self-esteem... . what parts do we feel uncomfortable with that make us feel like we are not worthy of being with someone who is a solid person, no PD, or serious mental health issues?

Is it how we look, our intelligence, shame, or something else?

I think I have a handle on the physical aspects, for the most part, and I've never really had an issue with intelligence.  There is some shame 'baked' in there regarding what I have experienced in my past, thinking 'who would want to be with someone who let this happen or did this?'

Baby steps... . awareness and self-respect.  I'm working on it! Hope you all are getting there, too.