PERSPECTIVES: Children of BPD Parents: Reclaiming Our Lost Selves

[LionDreamer]

Yes, I did recently. I wrote it out as succinctly as I could and then read it out loud to a group of about 35 women of all ages. After that, I was asked to give it again 2 more times in June of this year.  . .

I struggled with whether to relate some of the details of the abuse and then I realized I needed to for me (who was told not to tell) and for others who are still silent. A few weeks ago, one woman contacted me and told me thank you for sharing my "precious" story and that she too was abused and is going through therapy for it... . .

It has been empowering to name out loud what happened, especially since some of the women in the group knew me when I was "living" with my parents! To get to finally tell the reality, the truth of what happened. I called it "five miracles God did in my life".

Thank you for sharing this empowering story survivorof2,  I love that you not only felt empowered by speaking out loud what happened but you also empowered other women who saw some of their own lives reflected in yours.  It just amazes me how we always think we are alone in this, but then when we speak out truth we find we are not alone.   Thanks so much for this lesson.

As far as the resilient characteristics are concerned , I feel like I am pretty good in most of them , but I need to work on my intuitive side.

Interesting self-insight telios.  Good work.

As far as the good qualities, I think I have those and many others.  My biggest problem right now is figuring out who *I* am.  I think it's a lot more funky and creative and eccentric then my FOO would ever have desired, but I'm kind of getting excited about finding that out and letting loose.  Within the framework of an adult world where I have responsibility, I very much am giving myself whatever liberty possible to both be a kid and listen to/validate whatever healthy stuff she wants or feels.  I'm just so over being so restricted.  It's time to play.   

In reclaiming our lost selves that is exactly where we need to focus "who am I?"   jardin, I love that you consider yourself funky, creative and eccentric and are exploring those qualities of yourself. Happy play-time! 

In telling their "stories", survivorof2 found empowerment, telios found strengths as well as an area of her life that needs work and jardin is finding her inner child.   All of these are truth.

Have you told your story in a way that has helped you (through art/writing, public service/activism, faith communities, 12-step programs, therapy, to family/friends, etc.)? What has been your experience of telling your story?

Would anyone else like to answer the question?

[Telios]

Dear Liondreamer,

  I have told much of my story to some good friends , over time.  I have told my husband most of my story, if not all.  As far as expressing it in art, activism, faith communities, not so much.  I did just see a lay counselor at my church and a lot of stuff was told in an hour and half time, and it was soo helpful.  This board has been one of the biggest areas I have told about my story.  I am thinking of printing out all the posts I have made to kind of organize them for future reference for myself also. ( not sure if I can , but going to try).

  I think I am still a little to raw to share a concise ,detailed account of my life circumstances to a large group.  Just talking about it now , kind of makes me feel a little melancholy.  My mind automatically goes to the damage I have caused my own daughter from lack of knowlege of how I was harming her with my authoritarian parenting style , which I thought was important at the time.  My parenting style was harsh as well as my own sickness and  my-issuesof selfishness and worrying about how our family "looked" to other people all the time.  I was more concerned about that at the time then what was going on with my own daughter. turity, mixed with selfishness, mixed with being married to someone with there own anger issues.

  Trying not to be to hard on myself , for lack of knowledge, but also balance it with doing the right thing now, now that I am learning better relationship, listening and boundary skills.

Hope this did not turn into  something off track.

Thanks, Telios

[survivorof2]

My mind automatically goes to the damage I have caused

Telios, I'd like to address this and hopefully something I say might help... .

You will know when you are ready to tell your story. It has been 6 years for me and I just now feel ready. Still scared and scarred, but ready.

I too caused damage to others through my enmeshment with my FOO. As I told my daughter one time recently when she asked why I couldn't be there for her in the past, "what did you expect with the way I was 'mothered'?" I told her I am working at things and trying, but if she is expecting perfection, she will not get it from ANY mother.

A BIG part of my healing has been acknowledging what my part was that hurt others and going to them and apologizing. It has been SO hard to do this at times, because of what I've gone through with my uBPDparents. But then I remind myself how much it would help me if my uBPDparents could just acknowledge that what they did to me was wrong.

So my acknowledgment of what my kids went through, my helplessness, my poor parenting skills because I was just trying to survive abusive parents, etc. is important to me. Otherwise I have nothing to work at and stay stuck in the past and what was done to me.

xoxox

[LionDreamer]

You will know when you are ready to tell your story. It has been 6 years for me and I just now feel ready. Still scared and scarred, but ready.

telios, I agree with survivorof2 that you will know when you are ready and I would also add, HOW you are ready.  For me, what makes our journeys so unique to us is the different ways we do them.  For survivorof2 speaking in front of a group was right for her.  For you and many others, speaking here is how we get our stories out.   For many, that is enough.  For some it might be sharing with one close friend.  For others, they may need another form of "speaking" whether it be artwork, writing, etc . . . There is no right or wrong way!

Trying not to be to hard on myself , for lack of knowledge, but also balance it with doing the right thing now, now that I am learning better relationship, listening and boundary skills.

A BIG part of my healing has been acknowledging what my part was that hurt others and going to them and apologizing. It has been SO hard to do this at times, because of what I've gone through with my uBPDparents. But then I remind myself how much it would help me if my uBPDparents could just acknowledge that what they did to me was wrong.

You both hit on a big aspect of healing and reclaiming ourselves - an honest assessment including where we have made our own mistakes, recognizing them and working to make things as right as we can.   I have certainly had this myself with my three children.  With the unrecognized fleas  my-issuess I had, esp when they were little, I did create some "woundings" for them.  We have had a lot of healing to do together esp. since they are all grown now.   And I feel very fortunate that they have been willing to walk the healing path with me.   

Thank you telios and survivorof2 for bringing this up, because I believe it is an important step to finding out who we are in the world, for both better and worse,

LD 

[LionDreamer]

Validation

When we work to reclaim ourselves, figure out who we are in the world, we use mirrors or validation to experiment and learn about ourselves.   That validation can be external (someone else holding up the mirror) or internal (holding up the mirror for ourselves).   Jardin gave an excellent example of what it means to find internal validation:

My biggest problem right now is figuring out who *I* am.  I think it's a lot more funky and creative and eccentric then my FOO would ever have desired, but I'm kind of getting excited about finding that out and letting loose. 

We can also find internal validation by recognizing the good qualities we have learned from our experiences.  irishbear99 gave us some examples of how this can be done, by consciously deciding to do things differently than our BPDparent. 

  Optimistic (You possess a sense of hope and a solid belief that the future will be fine, or better)

Absolutely.  UBPDm sees everything in a negative light.  I got so tired of hearing the worst in everything that I have made a conscious decision in my adult life to see the good in things.


  Self-directed  (When something truly needs to be done, you're able to recognize it on your own and muster the inner resources to do it)

This is also me, mainly because I couldn't depend on uBPDm or enDad to do the things I needed growing up.  I learned to do a lot for myself.

There is also external validation.  survivorof2 gave us an example of this when after telling her own story, another women approached her in friendship.

Yes, I did recently [tell my story]. I wrote it out as succinctly as I could and then read it out loud to a group of about 35 women of all ages. After that, I was asked to give it again 2 more times in June of this year. What was my experience? I had to work through that it didn't matter if they believed my story or not. God validates me and also I have many loving supportive people in my life now (many on this forum!  xoxo). I struggled with whether to relate some of the details of the abuse and then I realized I needed to for me (who was told not to tell) and for others who are still silent. A few weeks ago, one woman contacted me and told me thank you for sharing my "precious" story and that she too was abused and is going through therapy for it. She also befriended me on Facebook.

So here are our next questions to explore:

If you have had success finding validation outside of yourself that has helped you know yourself as lovable, worthy, and special, how has that happened? Please share your story.

If you have had success with self-validation (inside yourself) how has that happened? Please share your story.

[DeityorDevil]

I'm kind of new hear, so I apologize if this is sort of long, catching up. I'll be as succinct as I can.

1. When did you begin to understand your own experience from YOUR point of view (not from your BPD parent or from any enmeshed relatives)?

I think I'm still just beginning this process. I still have a lot of internalized negative messages about myself that run circles in my head. I'm still kind of letting go of the idea that maybe I'm not fundamentally bad or flawed.  So, maybe tomorrow, this will be a little more clear. It's a little clearer today than it was yesterday, at any rate.

I had also done a lot of work on ridding myself of my addictions and I was learning healthier coping skills so I began questioning why but still thought it must be me or she didn't love me.  I had no idea it was dealing with mental illness till it was suggested to me on another internet site for care givers that my mother could have a personality disorder, possibly narcissism. I was shocked but in a weird way felt better that I wasn't crazy.

This makes a lot of sense to me.



2. So self-assessment time:  Which of these qualities do you have?  Which would you like to develop?  How has your growing up in the household of a pwBPD taught you some of these qualities (and which ones)?



   Curious (You have an innate inquisitiveness and interest in the world around you) I think this is true. I am interested in many different things, especially learning about how things work and why.  Sometimes to the point of being interrogative, when I'm talking to and/or learning about a new person. (Curiosity was not a praised quality living with my family.)

   Engaged (You have the ability to connect with others, to give and accept support) I am much more comfortable giving than accepting support. I think I'm good at supporting others, and listening to them (or at least trying to) I'm not nearly as good at asking for help.

   Humorous  (You're able to find humor in situations) Yes, I think so. I think I'm funny, so long as people like puns. (And if you don't, I'm still kind of punny funny.) This too, is newer. To appreciate things that are funny.

   Intuitive  (You have good hunches when it comes to understanding others and how they behave) Eerily good, at times. Usually within a few words, or a few seconds of watching body language. A lot of this comes from needing to be extremely tuned in to other people's emotions and moods.

   Inventive  (You have the ability to see things in different ways; to come up with alternatives to problems; and to express yourself through creative endeavors) I try to. Some forms of creativity are easier for me than others.

   Optimistic (You possess a sense of hope and a solid belief that the future will be fine, or better) This is a new one, for me. Maybe I can say "cautiously optimistic." Today anyway, I have trouble being consistently optimistic. (Consistently pessimistic or pragmatic, I can manage every day of the week, however.)

   Persistent  (You're tenacious and have the ability to work at something that's important to you)

I prefer to get things done quickly, but if it takes longer, that's all right too.

   Self-directed  (When something truly needs to be done, you're able to recognize it on your own and muster the inner resources to do it) Sometimes I feel that I'm the only one that does this, in certain situations. When other people are not as self-directed, I find it very frustrating.

   Spiritual  (You believe in some force larger than yourself and our own [and others'] human abilities) Yes. HP and I usually talk on a daily basis by necessity for my own fractured sanity.

3. Have you told your story in a way that has helped you (through art/writing, public service/activism, faith communities, 12-step programs, therapy, to family/friends, etc.)? What has been your experience of telling your story?

I've shared my story a few times, within a framework of substance abuse recovery, in speaker meetings. (Very uncomfortable). I don't know how I would tell the story of me growing up. Addiction is a very large part of it, but in telling that story, I inevitably leave out large portions of my childhood, frankly, because they're depressing. For me to tell all of it, I don't know where to begin. That's something I have been struggling with in therapy, is simply knowing where to start.

If you have had success finding validation outside of yourself that has helped you know yourself as lovable, worthy, and special, how has that happened? Please share your story. I live with someone who is very good at validation. Talking with other addicts, at any rate, has been validating of a lot of the feelings of "not enough" that I had growing up.

If you have had success with self-validation (inside yourself) how has that happened? Please share your story. I'm working with a very good therapist, who is helping me learn to do this, and to recognize my own feelings as valid. I still have very mixed results with this. My initial internal reaction is almost always self-invalidation.

[blackandwhite]

DeityorDevil, your response is great.  I'm so glad you have someone in your life who is good at validation and a good therapist. 

If you have had success finding validation outside of yourself that has helped you know yourself as lovable, worthy, and special, how has that happened? Please share your story.

There were many ways I got external validation, though I often wasn't able to take it in. I was a very good student and felt comfortable in the classroom. Generally I liked my teachers and they liked me, so I had approval from adults, and that helped. One of the most important bits of validation came to me when I got my first job. I was 13 and started waitressing. It was a family-owned restaurant run by the matriarch, who was a very kind lady. Not long after I started, when I was still really nervous about being able to do all these strange and unfamiliar tasks, she put her arm around me and told me I was doing a great job and that they loved having me around. It was such a moment of acceptance... .priceless.

Throughout my life I got messages from others that I was nice, lovable, fun, interesting, smart, funny, creative, worthy of success (as well as some not so positive messages  ). But I discounted those positive mirrors for a long time. It's the old "if he/she knew what I was REALLY like, he/she would run for the hills."

For a long time, the feedback I was getting from the entire world wasn't strong enough to counter the "selfish, bad, boring, it's your job to take care of me" messages I was getting from my mother and similar messages from other family--and that were so strong inside me. I do remember one day perhaps ten years ago logically thinking it through... .my DH thinks I'm pretty nice and we get along... .X says I'm a good friend... .Y admires my work and finds me funny... .Z has encouraged me to pursue my talents because she likes what I produce... .The only "selfish, bad, boring, only good for what you do for me" people in my life were my own family! So maybe... .DH, X, Y, Z and others actually have a point?

That's when the external validation began to sink in and I became much better at self-validation.

B&W

[DeityorDevil]

External validation is still something I'm learning to accept (often with dubious grace.) Partially because of my childhood, and partially because of my own issues with anxiety, addict, etcetera, I have always been kind of a misanthrope. Admittedly, this reduced opportunities for external validation (I didn't have a "real" job until just a few years ago.)

[LionDreamer]

That's when the external validation began to sink in and I became much better at self-validation.

Thanks for your story black&white, I think its very interesting that you needed external validation to sink in before you could become better at self-validation.   It's as if we need to "redo" the external validation we never received as children in order to discover it within ourselves.

External validation is still something I'm learning to accept (often with dubious grace.)

I love that you point out DeityorDevil, how hard it can be to accept external validation, esp if that's something we did not grow up with. 

Here is the next question based on this comment:

How hard has it been for you to accept validation from outside of yourself?  If someone gives you a compliment are you able to accept it?  Can you recognize when a compliment is well deserved?   Have you had successes in life that you have belittled?  This is a good place for you to tout your own horn and brag a bit.

[Loren]

It's excruciatingly slow. I feel like I was a grown up already, and now I'm a lost child who would like adult guidance and reassurance, but I can't move into that reassurance becuase I know with age that there actually isn't any, it's an illusion. No one protected me and now no one can. But I'm trying to grow up by getting a handle on my emotions and surrounding myself with healthy people and love, or just neutral events and people because that even keel stability, even if it doesn't run deep, is not chaos or drama.

[DeityorDevil]

How hard has it been for you to accept validation from outside of yourself?  If someone gives you a compliment are you able to accept it?  Can you recognize when a compliment is well deserved?   Have you had successes in life that you have belittled?  This is a good place for you to tout your own horn and brag a bit.

I'm still struggling with accepting validation from people I don't know well. When I know someone well, and trust them, I find it easier, because I know that they know more about me, good and bad, and if they see the good, then it must be true. What I'm learning, is that when people offer compliments, most of the time they are just being nice, and that it's more preferable to just say, "Thank you," and letting them offer validation, rather than argue with them about why I'm not whatever nice thing they said. Even if I don't agree straight away, I'm much better off accepting the compliment, than making my own internal invalidation an external voice. I agree with blackandwhite, that allowing external validation to sink in makes self-validation easier.

Accomplishments are sort of difficult, I hate to jinx anything.  I have (so far) 871 days clean, today. Almost two years and five months. Which is a very long time for someone who used for over a decade. I don't know if there are other people here who have dealt with addiction, but after using every day, two years is a very long time. I built and designed a recovery website, that hosts online meetings, and provides a free resource for people looking for information about substance abuse recovery. I also taught myself CSS (web styling language) in two days to do it.

[random]

@DeityorDevil:

Wow, CSS in 2 days! As a web professional, I tip my hat. Oh, and the sobriety, too - KUDOS!

This is such a great workshop. I'm still catching up, so here goes:

When did you begin to understand your own experience from YOUR point of view (not from your BPD parent or from any enmeshed relatives)?

I'm sad to say that the true lightbulb moment only happened when I was 34 and living with my mother after a re-enmeshment following several years of NC. She hooked me in with being nurturing and refraining from all but the most covert abuse. When I moved in, she started losing those veils of "normalcy" one by one. After being in her house for about 6 weeks, I started thinking, "this woman ain't right," just watching her wild mood swings, the bizarre way she manages her schedule and her money, the way she would look flat out psychotic at times with her face all slack and devoid of any human expression... .

Then she flew into a true Mr. Hyde abusive episode with my sister, then 11 years old. She hit her and started screaming at her in this non-stop rage spew. My sister fled upstairs when I walked into the room to see what the hell was going on - and my mother just kept on screaming, without missing a beat, even though the person she was screaming at wasn't in the room anymore.

Which is when I went, "there is a word for this. The word is abuse. This woman is #$@#$ what is wrong in my life and always has been. It's not me. It's her."

It took about a year for this to truly sink in, and as I started to act on my knowledge, I had the, uh, mother of all breakthrough crises (yes, ALL of them  ). I'm still recovering and keeping a sweaty grip on managing my PTSD and all that good stuff.

On the resiliency thing: I was really surprised by how many of these traits I had! I never thought of myself as resilient, because resilient people don't have depression break-downs or come down with mystery fatigue and such... .It's awesome to discover that I have a lot strength, actually!

Confident (You feel a sense of competence in at least some of the important areas of your life; you possess a sense of self-respect) - OK, not this one. I have a great big hole of helplessness instead, which I am sloowly starting to fill. I relate so much to whoever said that no matter their previous accomplishments, at a new job they expect to be found out as a fraud. That's exactly what I am facing now, week 1 into a new job. But I am not taking this "you suck and THEY WILL FIND OUT" crap at face value anymore, so there's progress.

Curious (You have an innate inquisitiveness and interest in the world around you) - Very! To the point where I have to counter-balance it with conscious focus on safety! I got an email from a recruiter who was looking to hire for an agency branch in Saudi Mother of God Arabia, and I sent in my resume immediately, because what an interesting experience that would be! Then I was like, if I couldn't take sexist street harassment in California, then Saudi Arabia life is probably not for me, c.f. recent hospitalization for depression and PTSD.



Engaged (You have the ability to connect with others, to give and accept support) - yes, definitely! If anything, I have had to learn to be less open and available for this type of thing, and to go slow until I know the person better.

Humorous  (You're able to find humor in situations) - another definitely! My sense of humour is the last thing to go, so if I can't joke anymore, that's when I'm REALLY depressed.

Intuitive  (You have good hunches when it comes to understanding others and how they behave) - I can read really well whether someone is angry with me or not. But I fall for fake niceness easily. So good in some aspects, not so good in others.

Inventive  (You have the ability to see things in different ways; to come up with alternatives to problems; and to express yourself through creative endeavors) - hell yeah, that's one of my strongest traits. Give me a problem to solve and I am as happy as a teen on instant messenger.

Optimistic (You possess a sense of hope and a solid belief that the future will be fine, or better) - OK, this is where I have another black hole instead. I am always waiting for my world to explode. When I turned 26, in 2000, I was stunned that I made it that far. I never expected to be alive in 2000. When I found a lump in my boob this summer, I was this close || to Googling hospices that allow pets. And did I go wig-shopping online? Why yes, I did. The lump turned out to be benign, just like everyone told me it would.

Persistent  (You're tenacious and have the ability to work at something that's important to you) - Well, I've been pretty bloody-minded about art-making, and a few other things, and I am feeling bloody-minded about putting my life back together.

Self-directed  (When something truly needs to be done, you're able to recognize it on your own and muster the inner resources to do it) - Another definitely. I'm happiest when I can work on my own projects, of which I usually have at least a dozen, with others all over my notebooks and sketchbooks, waiting in the wings.

Spiritual  (You believe in some force larger than yourself and our own [and others'] human abilities) - Yes, but I'm sad to say that the times when it helps me during a triggered state are very few and far between. I feel at my most spiritual when I am calm and feeling safe. When I'm falling apart and decompensating, I think the only thing that gets me through is survival instinct and the above-mentioned bloody-mindedness.

Coming to a place where we can have a "voice in the world." A prerequisite for that seems to be to have a strong enough sense of our selves as worthy human beings that we can have the faith our voices will be heard.

I still struggle with this. I have such a strong sense of shame and worthlessness that it's not even about my voice being heard, it's about having a right to speak at all. I am working hard on this, but it's in my bones: "You have no value. You don't matter. You are wrong and should be destroyed." It's such old programming that I have to rewrite the code one line at a time, bit by bit.

But I discounted those positive mirrors for a long time. It's the old "if he/she knew what I was REALLY like, he/she would run for the hills."

This happens to me a lot. I am so used to devaluation that when people say good things about me, it's like their lips are moving but no sound is reaching me. There is this layer of ice between me and positive feedback from the world.

But my most recent experience was different - at my old job, people told me over and over that they were very sad to lose me, that I contributed a lot, that I was very good at what I did and that I was great to work with. And I actually listened and accepted the praise and sank into it, and let myself feel that I deserve it. It was a real act of will, to acknowledge the hard work and focus I put into my work, and to appreciate not only my work, but also the fact that I did it in the middle of a deep depression and a huge crisis. Seems that once I accepted my own validation, I could accept it from others.

Mirroring: here's a story.

I had a bullying boss I spent 3 incredibly painful years trying to please. I got so used to thinking that I am a terrible employee, designer, person, member of society that it was always there like background radiation, even years after I left.

Two years ago I went to visit my grandpa in Ukraine, who helped raise me along with my grandmother, and who was probably the most loving and stable adult in my life when I was a kid. We were sitting in the kitchen, setting up a meal, and grandpa looked at me for a beat, and then said the most amazing thing: "You are preparing everything so thoughtfully and carefully. I bet you do your job like that too, well and thoroughly."

I felt like a brick fell on my head, but a really nice brick! It was so... .healing to have someone look at me, really look at me as I am, notice me, and then say something so appreciative and complimentary. And then I realized how few such moments there had been in my working life. And then I realized what a total ___hole my manager had been.

I think that having my grandpa in my life as a child probably contributed a lot to the fact that I am still here.

[LionDreamer]

But I'm trying to grow up by getting a handle on my emotions and surrounding myself with healthy people and love, or just neutral events and people because that even keel stability, even if it doesn't run deep, is not chaos or drama.

Loren, I love that you are working to surround yourself with healthy people and with love.  This is so very important in learning who we are and how we function and in sharing that knowledge.   

Even if I don't agree straight away, I'm much better off accepting the compliment, than making my own internal invalidation an external voice. I agree with blackandwhite, that allowing external validation to sink in makes self-validation easier.

It is interesting to see how extrernal validation makes self-validation easier.   Great job on your sobriety, that must be very validating for you as well.

I have such a strong sense of shame and worthlessness that it's not even about my voice being heard, it's about having a right to speak at all. I am working hard on this, but it's in my bones: "You have no value. You don't matter. You are wrong and should be destroyed." It's such old programming that I have to rewrite the code one line at a time, bit by bit.

Yes, yes, good point and thank you for sharing how very painful to feel worthless and sometimes we even need to learn that we have a right to speak. 

Seems that once I accepted my own validation, I could accept it from others.

So you needed to accept your own validation before you could accept it from others.  This is a different side of the process.   I am thinking its like a feed-back loop where both the external and internal validations create a gestalt type of process where each side is more than the whole.

It was so... .healing to have someone look at me, really look at me as I am, notice me, and then say something so appreciative and complimentary.

Yes external validation again - so very important for us to grow.   I am so glad you had your grandfather in your life.  What a gift!


The following was brought to my attention by black&white and is from the book Fear and Other Uninvited Guests, by Harriet Lerner

This story of successful assertiveness concerns Sheila, and adult daughter (not living at home) who is struggling with her relationship with her parents. She's also overweight and finds her parents are strangely obsessed with that. One day they offer to pay her to lose weight; they'll set up a scale in their bathroom. They can do a weigh in when she's there, keep a chart, and for each 5 pounds she loses, they'll pay her $100. She is tempted but feels really strange about this offer. Eventually, she realizes that there is a theme of her parents--especially her father--not respecting her boundaries over the years. She recalls he "spanked her bare bottom until she was 12" and wouldn't close the door when he was using the bathroom, even when she asked him to.

Contemplating allowing her parents involvement in her intimate body experience (through efforts to lose weight) felt strange to Sheila. She politely declined the offer, and her parents both unleashed a lot of anger at her, accusing her of being insulting and oversensitive.

Although the reaction wasn't positive, Sheila feels a sense of accomplishment over asserting her boundaries. The courage she gains from this allows her to speak her piece to her father about the past:

Quote from the book:

Speaking assertively inspired Sheila to speak even more bravely. Taking courage to the limits, she opened up another conversation with her father about the violations of her childhood Confronting painful issues from the past can sometimes help us build pride where shame used to flourish. But the process requires us to face fear and walk through it.

Sheila started the conversation when her dad was flipping through the TV channels. Her father was a poor listener, but she recalled that he did a bit better when he didn't feel the pressure of eye-to-eye contact. The conversations that had gone well in the past had happened in the car, doing dishes, while the TV was on, or with some other distraction in place. So one night, in the TV room after dinner, Sheila jumped in.

":)ad," she began, "I was thinking about your comment the other day that I was oversensitive when I turned down your offer to pay me for losing weight. Maybe someone else would be grateful like you said."

Sheila paused, took a couple of deep breaths, and then continued. "It got me wondering if maybe my extra sensitivity relates to some painful things that happened in our family in the past." Staring at the TV, her dad said, "I don't know what you're talking about."

":)ad, you didn't respect my boundaries when I was growing up," Sheila went on. "You left the door open when you urinated, even after  asked you to close it. You gave me those spankings that felt humiliating to me. And you made comments about my body and about my friends' breasts. These behaviors of yours left me with a lot of anxiety and anger. So perhaps I'm especially sensitive to wanting my boundaries respected when I say I would like you and Mom to back off about my weight and let me deal with it in my own way."

The entire time she spoke, Sheila's father channel-surfed as though his life depended on it. Now he turned sharply to look at her. "You have one amazing imagination," he spit out. Before she could respond, he rose from his armchair and stalked out of the room. As Sheila watched him go, she realized she was shaking.

Few actions evoke more anxiety than carefully opening a conversation about past harm.

(end of book quote)

The author goes on to say that Sheila didn't get the response she wanted or hoped for, but "getting the 'right response' is rarely our reward for speaking when afraid." Instead, it is "the sound of our own voice, speaking our own truth, is what we most need to hear."

And so the final questions of this workshop:

Can you imagine feeling valued, lovable, and worthy even if your relative with BPD never sees you this way?   How can you or have you achieved this?

[DeityorDevil]

Thank you random and LionDreamer. Recovery is not easy, but nothing is more worth it.

Can you imagine feeling valued, lovable, and worthy even if your relative with BPD never sees you this way?   How can you or have you achieved this?

I don't expect my father to ever see me as valuable. Even if I were exactly like him, it would not be enough (my golden brother- on the other hand, can do no wrong. I think he's in prison now for assault. The last letter from my mother said my father is looking forward to when he gets out and is going to get him a car, they're on foodstamps, but I believe he will find a way to get an extra car somewhere.)

Seeing myself as lovable, I'm working on. I try to be aware of how people talk to me, and keep positive people around me, who are good at showing love to everyone around them (not just me. My father is pretty hateful toward 99% of the population). I feel valuable when I feel that I am perfect, have made no mistakes, look right, act right, feel "right," and other people can lean on me. A huge part of how I experience value, is in being dependable now, someone that people can lean on when they need to, because I was not for many years. (That junkie thing, you know.  Junkies are not the most reliable people in the world.)

I think I also- find value in not being like my father. In going out of my way to do something extra for other people, to give back as often as I can. To make an effort to tell people that I love, that I love them, that I appreciate them (because I'm not especially easy to be with all the time.) To investing more in people outside of myself when I can.

[healinghome]

When did you begin to understand your own experience from YOUR point of view (not from your BPD parent or from any enmeshed relatives)?

only recently am i starting to trust my own perception, intuition and feelings.  fear has kept me not doing so for over 35yrs.  fear for the consequences of uBPDm's retaliation at my independance.  i think this was first driven home to me at age 2,when she emotionally rejected me for learning to walk and bonding with my older sister.  nc is helping me to provide a safe space for myself in my home, heart and head.

Adaptable (You adjust to new, changing or difficult situations with relative ease)

yes, at university, when i worked abroad, moving homes and becoming homeless at 16yrs old.

Confident (You feel a sense of competence in at least some of the important areas of your life; you possess a sense of self-respect)

not so much, but i'm working on it!

Curious (You have an innate inquisitiveness and interest in the world around you)

very,  i used to get told off when in education because i had so much curiosity for the world around me. i still do and really enjoy learning.

Engaged (You have the ability to connect with others, to give and accept support)

i'm working on this one too.  i can connect with others and from the real help i've received here i'm learning how to accept REAL support and not the fake, conditional, self serving support that BPD's offer.

Humorous  (You're able to find humor in situations)

definately, humour helps me stay grounded.  sometimes things are so strange and way out that they end up funny!

Intuitive  (You have good hunches when it comes to understanding others and how they behave)

definately,  i try to listen to and understand the origins of my gut feelings now because i'm beginning to trust that they never lie.

Inventive  (You have the ability to see things in different ways; to come up with alternatives to problems; and to express yourself through creative endeavors)

yes, but was conditioned to believe that this made me different in a bad way.  needs some work.

Optimistic (You possess a sense of hope and a solid belief that the future will be fine, or better)

i have hope that my strength will pull me through.

Persistent  (You're tenacious and have the ability to work at something that's important to you)

if its important to me i will see it through.  which i guess makes me aware of how strong i can be.

Self-directed  (When something truly needs to be done, you're able to recognize it on your own and muster the inner resources to do it)

yes, very independent and self reliant.

Spiritual  (You believe in some force larger than yourself and our own [and others'] human abilities)

i believe that this force is something that we are a part of and is within us.  i don't see it as something outside of us.

If you have had success finding validation outside of yourself that has helped you know yourself as lovable, worthy, and special, how has that happened? Please share your story.

this forum has been that anchor to me so i can work towards validation and having healthy throughts.  i read books, do alot of thinking... .combining rational/logical thinking with emotional feelings, i question my thoughts and feelings now which helps me change what i no longer like or need.

How hard has it been for you to accept validation from outside of yourself?  If someone gives you a compliment are you able to accept it?  Can you recognize when a compliment is well deserved?   Have you had successes in life that you have belittled?  This is a good place for you to tout your own horn and brag a bit.

its been hard to let the good in, as i got used to the 'good' really being a 'good for uBPDm but not for me',but as i'm learning the difference between the genuine good and the pretend/self serving good that BPDs give, its getting easier to trust it and accept it.  i never really belittled my success, more... .never acknowledged it.  i'm beginning to reolize how strong and resiliant i have been to overcome genetic difficulties, 7yrs in care and parental abuse and neglect. that was some accomplishment!  i think i have a good anchor within that guides me with my feelings while my mind helps process and understand these feelings, and i'm working on strengthening it and freeing it.

Can you imagine feeling valued, lovable, and worthy even if your relative with BPD never sees you this way?   How can you or have you achieved this?

definately, its what i work towards. i work to free myself physically,mentally and emotionally from the conditioning of my parents with nc and by keep asking myself these questions until there are no more.

[random]

Can you imagine feeling valued, lovable, and worthy even if your relative with BPD never sees you this way?   How can you or have you achieved this?

On the Fugitivus blog, the writer talks about how she felt that if she left her abuser, she would be a bad person, and then she decided to embrace and accept the parts of her that constitute a bad person. When I think about my life post-reporting my mother to CPS, post-disownment, the words "gallows bird" keeps popping up into my head, but I feel a strange sense of pride in them.

I think it goes a bit like this: they hated or treated as non-existent important parts of us. And we need to locate those parts, notice them, interact with them, ACT on them - and make a conscious effort to see them differently than the abusers saw them. I have to see myself through different eyes than theirs.

That's how I am working on it. The idea of rights, human rights, keeps coming back to me as well - that I have a right to safety, a right to control over my life, and that right is inalienable and mine no matter what anybody says. It's almost like growing a new chunk of my brain.

[Cordelia]

How hard has it been for you to accept validation from outside of yourself?  If someone gives you a compliment are you able to accept it?  Can you recognize when a compliment is well deserved?   Have you had successes in life that you have belittled?  This is a good place for you to tout your own horn and brag a bit.

This is still a challenge for me.  I have to make a conscious effort not to brush off compliments - when I get one, I pause for a minute, to tell myself "no, you can really HEAR that, you don't have to discount it or rationalize it out of existence."  It feels a little unnatural, but it is extremely healing to allow myself to receive kindness. 

I very recently realized that I still belittle my successes - over the past year, I was in the running for two important goals, one of which was more significant and prestigious than the other, and I didn't attain the first goal, but I did achieve a smaller goal.  Recently a friend congratulated me on the smaller accomplishment, and I was surprised, and corrected her, oh no, you're mistaken, I DIDN'T actually achieve anything, and she was like, I know you didn't get that other thing, but this is its own accomplishment.  (Hope that's not too confusing!).  I had so thoroughly discounted achieving that smaller goal in my mind, I didn't understand how it was something that was worth congratulations.   

I definitely still feel stuck in this area between starving myself of validation and arrogance.  It's hard for me to relate to my accomplishments without either minimizing them out of existence or taking the attitude, "well, of course I did well, don't you know I'm brilliant?"  I think when I was younger and academic accomplishment really replaced love and security in my life, I was very arrogant because I craved that attention so much, so I've learned to minimize my accomplishments, since that's so much more socially acceptable.  But then I don't allow myself to take pleasure in the things I do achieve, especially when they fall short of my (very ambitious) goals.  It's definitely something I struggle with.  I'm looking forward to hearing more about others' experiences!

[DeityorDevil]

Salome: It was very hard for me, earlier on this thread, to not say, "Oh well, I had to learn css because it needed to get done- not a big deal."

Except for I said it now. But, let's pretend I didn't say it. It was referential. Anyway, yes. It's really difficult sometimes, to accept praise. Even- maybe sometimes especially- praise that is deserved. When I've worked hard for something, sometimes I feel like I haven't worked hard enough to justify acknowledgement.

[werkinprogress]

when was it? i knew things were wrong when it started getting crazy and UBPDM started hitting me, but because no one believed me(school counselors, relatives). i learned that it wasnt gonna change, which depressed me and led to me internalizing everything. i rebelled for awhile but i feel like she finally wore me down, like she was actively trying to break my spirit. i have no idea how i got so lost as to let her... .

[LionDreamer]

Seeing myself as lovable, I'm working on. I try to be aware of how people talk to me, and keep positive p

I think I also- find value in not being like my father. In going out of my way to do something extra for other people, to give back as often as I can. To make an effort to tell people that I love, that I love them, that I appreciate them (because I'm not especially easy to be with all the time.) To investing more in people outside of myself when I can.

A positive outcome from a negative experience -    You do describe a healthy way to validation

only recently am i starting to trust my own perception, intuition and feelings.  fear has kept me not doing so for over 35yrs.  fear for the consequences of uBPDm's retaliation at my independance.  i think this was first driven home to me at age 2,when she emotionally rejected me for learning to walk and bonding with my older sister.  nc is helping me to provide a safe space for myself in my home, heart and head.

Ouch!  I too have been able to trace my abuse and rejection to the age of 2.  Uncovering such abuse is not only painful but its difficult to uncover as it is prememory for the most part.   And yes, yes much fear.  What did you fear all these years?  I would say I most feared the pain of really knowing and having to deal with the reality of it.   I am so delighted you are beginning to trust your own perceptions, intuition and feelings.  That is truly a path to health

its been hard to let the good in, as i got used to the 'good' really being a 'good for uBPDm but not for me',but as i'm learning the difference between the genuine good and the pretend/self serving good that BPDs give, its getting easier to trust it and accept it.  i never really belittled my success, more... .never acknowledged it.  i'm beginning to reolize how strong and resiliant i have been to overcome genetic difficulties, 7yrs in care and parental abuse and neglect. that was some accomplishment!  i think i have a good anchor within that guides me with my feelings while my mind helps process and understand these feelings, and i'm working on strengthening it and freeing it.

Yes again, you have expressed what it is to take the initial messages we receive as children, that initial mirroring we receive and and change the messages, change the patterns that are so dysfunctional and thereby coming to know yourself!  Great work!

when was it? i knew things were wrong when it started getting crazy and UBPDM started hitting me, but because no one believed me(school counselors, relatives). i learned that it wasnt gonna change, which depressed me and led to me internalizing everything. i rebelled for awhile but i feel like she finally wore me down, like she was actively trying to break my spirit. i have no idea how i got so lost as to let her... .

werkinprogress, not getting that validation in the outside world makes the process of changing our mirrors all that much harder.  It sounds like your rebellion was your way or rejecting the mirror of your FOO which is an important step before we can rebuild our own mirrors.  Again good work.

LD

[healinghome]

Ouch!  I too have been able to trace my abuse and rejection to the age of 2.  Uncovering such abuse is not only painful but its difficult to uncover as it is prememory for the most part.   And yes, yes much fear.  What did you fear all these years?  I would say I most feared the pain of really knowing and having to deal with the reality of it.   I am so delighted you are beginning to trust your own perceptions, intuition and feelings.  That is truly a path to health

apparently its quite a common reaction in BPD parents, to see their childrens first independance (walking) as a personal rejection.  my older sister told me about this, i don't consciously remember it.  what did i fear?  her chaos, violence, depression and mostly how she had everyone else wrapped around her little finger, all blind to her abuse, so ready to blame me for her problems. the isolation.  being totally trapped, unable to escape, no where to escape to. 

Yes again, you have expressed what it is to take the initial messages we receive as children, that initial mirroring we receive and and change the messages, change the patterns that are so dysfunctional and thereby coming to know yourself!  Great work!

thank you! 

i rebelled for awhile but i feel like she finally wore me down, like she was actively trying to break my spirit. i have no idea how i got so lost as to let her... .

i also rebelled.  to the point that they made me homeless when i was 16.  i agree with the feeling that it seemed like she was actively trying to break my spirit.  like some sadistic kick for her.     soo glad i'm nc.

[DeityorDevil]

Healinghome: I think sometimes that rebelling probably saved my life. I left at 16 too, even though I come from a rough area, and probably could have died. Staying with them, I definitely would have, and it would have killed my spirit and soul in the process. I think the strength that leads to rebellion can also make it possible to survive just about anything.

[justhere]

It looks like I missed those years when it was part of growing up to detach from your parent and it only been these last few months that I've been going through any kind of rebellion.  As I was totally enmeshed it never occurred to me to even question my mothers behavior so speaking up to her is totally new territory for me.  It feels a little strange to going through these stages of trying to find and assert my own independence at 61 though and it's more then a little embarrassing.

It's not about trying to convince my mother of the error of her ways though or even for me to get her to see that I deserve to be recognized at a individual person because I know that she has already made her choice. It's about finding my voice and being able to speak my own truth. To me it's a proclamation of my freedom and that I refuse to continue to deny my right to be who I am.

justhere

   

[werkinprogress]

i also rebelled.  to the point that they made me homeless when i was 16.  i agree with the feeling that it seemed like she was actively trying to break my spirit.  like some sadistic kick for her.     soo glad i'm nc.

i definitely see my uBPDm as sadistic. and calculating. but something else you said made me wonder... .i was kicked out when i was 17, by 'mom', then dad, then 'mom', then aunt, then 'mom', then boyfriends house, then 'mom' again. (shuffled back and forth). i regret that i didnt have a job for a long time(which is a long story of family related stuff but whatever) and i stayed with her past 18. it was then that she commandeered my social security number to get cable and a phone and whatever, telling me that if i didnt cooperate i could find a new place to live. i had already tried that and failed, so my credit report now has her "name" on it, a hybrid of her maiden name and married name which DOESNT REALLY EXIST. this is all on top of her actually taking my paychecks whenever i did have part time work, so it was really hard to save money to move out. i dont let these things dictate the course of my life now, but my situation then seemed to have no escape, all catch-22 like.

[LionDreamer]

As a rap up to this workshop, I would like to go over the resiliency exercise from Roth and Friedman and give an overview of responses.   There were many wonderful experiences of how members have learned to look at themselves through different "mirrors" than they learned in childhood with their FOO.  And it is through our resiliencies, our strengths that we come to a point of validating ourselves without the consent or help from our FOOs.  I was impressed with everyone who answered that aspect and were able to articulate strengths and abilities even in the face of a FOO who resented those qualities.  

As random said:

"On the resiliency thing: I was really surprised by how many of these traits I had! I never thought of myself as resilient, because resilient people don't have depression break-downs or come down with mystery fatigue and such... .It's awesome to discover that I have a lot strength, actually!"

Adaptable (You adjust to new, changing or difficult situations with relative ease) This was a quality which most respondents felt comfortable with.  Salome described a life with a lot of changes and moves.  Irishbear99 spoke of anxiety with change and then under curiosity spoke of living in foreign countries and traveling which are hallmarks of an adaptable nature.   healinghome spoke of being homeless at 16 as a motivating factor in learning this quality.    

Confident (You feel a sense of competence in at least some of the important areas of your life; you possess a sense of self-respect) This was probably the most challenging quality for members to embody.   newfreedom spoke of feeling confident at work but not always in other areas of her life.  survivorof2 sees progress in her life in this area.   irishbear99 brings up the interesting point of why internal confidence can be so difficult.  irishbear99 said:  "I think this comes from presenting a false self for so long, hiding my true self because my true self wasn't acceptable"

Curious (You have an innate inquisitiveness and interest in the world around you) This was another strong trait among members.  justhere felt a natural curiosity was suppressed by early childhood experiences and parentification which didn't leave time for it to develop.  

Engaged (You have the ability to connect with others, to give and accept support) This quality had mixed responses with several people pointing out (irishbear99 and DeityorDevil) that it was easier to give support than to receive it.  

Humorous (You're able to find humor in situations) This was a very strong quality.  blackandwhite found validation through her sense of humor.   healinghome felt it grounded her and survivor of 2 spoke about this humor being suppressed because it was used by FOO in a scorning manner.  

Intuitive  (You have good hunches when it comes to understanding others and how they behave) This was another strong quality.  :)eityorDevil has "eerily good" intuition.  irishbear99 gave one explanation of how this can develop:  "I tend to have a good sense of what people aren't saying; what their hidden agendas and motivations are.  Again, I think this is due to growing up with uBPDm, who always had a hidden agenda."  survivorof2 spoke of this quality as helping to survive.  

Inventive  (You have the ability to see things in different ways; to come up with alternatives to problems; and to express yourself through creative endeavors).  This quality drew a very mixed response.  newfreedom summed it up with a "sometimes."

Optimistic(You possess a sense of hope and a solid belief that the future will be fine, or better).  This was another mixed response with DeityofDevil speaking of being "cautiously optimistic."  justhere was able to hold onto optimism in her darkest times.

Persistent  (You're tenacious and have the ability to work at something that's important to you) This was another of the strong categories.  survivorof2 says "this is one trait I have always had and REALLY irritated/irritates my FOO."  justhere says:  This is were I thrive but unfortunately my identity was also tied up with this.

Self-directed  (When something truly needs to be done, you're able to recognize it on your own and muster the inner resources to do it) This was a pretty strong category as well.   irishbear99 says that she developed self direction because she could never count on her uBPDm or her endad.  

Spiritual  (You believe in some force larger than yourself and our own [and others'] human abilities) This was the strongest quality of all.  Telios spoke particularly about faith where other spokes of an innate spirituality.   newfreedom said: "this is what keeps me on track and grounded"  Random made an interesting point that is it harder to feel the sense of spiritual connection when times are hardest.  


Good Work to all.  I invite anyone else who is interested to take the resiliency exercise and to particularly pay attention to the mirrors from childhood and how those mirrors changed and healed in adulthood.   In other words, how we come to know ourselves and who we in the world.  

LD


And PS we were also treated to other resilient qualities jardin gave us the qualities of being funky, creative and eccentric.   And several members spoke about the importance of rebellion.

[LionDreamer]

There was so much to discuss on the resiliency exercise I didn't want to cut short or leave off this interesting discussion on rebellion:

HI think sometimes that rebelling probably saved my life.  

i also rebelled.  to the point that they made me homeless when i was 16.  i agree with the feeling that it seemed like she was actively trying to break my spirit.

it was really hard to save money to move out. i dont let these things dictate the course of my life now, but my situation then seemed to have no escape, all catch-22 like.

It feels a little strange to going through these stages of trying to find and assert my own independence at 61 though  . . .It's about finding my voice and being able to speak my own truth. To me it's a proclamation of my freedom and that I refuse to continue to deny my right to be who I am.  

It seems that rebellion - rejecting the messages we had gotten as children - are a crucial means of coming into ourselves.   I'm wondering how many other people found that rebellion was a pathway to healing? Do we need some rebellion in order to break away? 

[healinghome]

It seems that rebellion - rejecting the messages we had gotten as children - are a crucial means of coming into ourselves.   I'm wondering how many other people found that rebellion was a pathway to healing? Do we need some rebellion in order to break away?

i'm not too sure about how it affected me then, but i know that now, rebellion doesn't really do me any favours.  so its something i want to change about myself.  i don't really see rebelling now as a means to break away from uBPDm either, more out of survival, because it comes with sadness and acceptance of reality.

[survivorof2]

For me, I don't think I'd call it rebellion as much as a new way of seeing life. I feel like my FOO rebels against EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY protesting all the way. I don't want to be around that or even think that anymore. Obviously I am a more passive person also, which drove them crazy. They were always trying to mold me into them. So working hard to be what I really am, for me, involves peace. But it does involve hard work to mature in areas that were sadly deficient when I got away from uBPDparents.

[LionDreamer]

I think this is an interesting discussion which I never thought about before.   I looked up "rebellion" in Websters and the first definition was the "art or state of armed open resistance to authority, government, etc .  .

Under "rebellious" it says "resisting authority" 

So I"m wondering - this word can be triggering because our BPDparents are always angry and fighting against enemies mostly imagined so they seem to be a in constant state of aimless rebellion.   

But the "resisting authority" definition for rebellious seems to me to have a different shade of meaning.  I am thinking that if the authority is our BPDparent then resisting is what allows us to keep, protect and nurture part of ourselves, the part that we never give over to them.  And that part then becomes the basis for us to heal and achieve the focus of this workshop:  reclaiming ourselves. 

Any thoughts?

LD

[justhere]

I see what you are saying LionDreamer about the different ways you can look at rebellion but in the context of my mother any disobedience or not doing what she wants when she wants it, even the word 'no' itself would be a rebellion and it would feel like it to me as well. I can't imagine how I lived all those years joined to my mother enslaved to her whims. 

I guess it was the deception and covert manipulation that kept me blind and even though I was the 'family scapegoat' I was also the 'golden daughter' in a way too who was kept happy to the point that I could remain agreeable and available to attend to my mother.  As long as no one made any changes this arrangement could go on indefinitely but my ill health intervened and stopped everything in its tracks.

It was my mothers words that kept ringing in my head when she pushed me to walk further then I could that day and it was then that I first saw who she was.  I had thought that we were in this together, that she cared for me as much as I cared for her but now here she was demanding that I give in to this silly whim of hers when doing so was causing me extreeme pain and she sat there smiling and totally unconcerned for me and seemed to be even enjoying my discomfort.  That was the moment that shook me awake. So since then it has been for me a rebellion of sorts or a testing period, like would she do this again?  or what would she say if I responded this way? By acting contrary or speaking up to her is helping me to see who she is and dispel all my old thinking. 

It is also helping me sort out how I feel and what my wants and needs are and seems to be a way of reinforcing those thoughts to myself.  I agree too that these realizations have been painful and confusing and very difficult because my family is not taking any changes in the family positions easily especially the freedom of one of its own. .

justhere