Her therapist says (?) I am wrong about her

[rickosound]

STBXUPDw has accused me of all sorts of horrible things over the last 5+ years. You know the drill. We have been separated six months now.

Her therapist -- whom I've never met -- told her that no "loving husband" would ever react such a way to her accusations against me. I should have taken the time to try to understand why she was making such accusations, according to the T.

I have no doubt whatsoever that this is what STBXW was actually told. She is INCAPABLE of lying (an odd aspect of her personality problems, I suppose).

;p

[DAS]

Question - are you hearing this directly from her T or is it her interpretation of what her T told her?

I have the feeling it is the latter and therefore worth or truth about as little as anything else she says... .

[goldenblunder]

Some therapists are pretty light on credentials and/or experience, especially when it comes to a serious mental illness.  I'd consider that.  Some therapists might be great if one are otherwise healthy but having a hard time communicating with a spouse.  But if one is seriously ill, it isn't just about talking things through and getting some helpful communication advice... .

[BPDUSoCrazy]

She is INCAPABLE of lying (an odd aspect of her personality problems, I suppose).

uhhhh, a pwBPD who doesn't lie? i just grew wings, won the lottery and p*** gold thread.  

[DAS]

She is INCAPABLE of lying (an odd aspect of her personality problems, I suppose).

uhhhh, a pwBPD who doesn't lie? i just grew wings, won the lottery and p*** gold thread.  

I think the OP was being facetious.  

[rickosound]

She is INCAPABLE of lying (an odd aspect of her personality problems, I suppose).

uhhhh, a pwBPD who doesn't lie? i just grew wings, won the lottery and p*** gold thread.  

I think the OP was being facetious.  

No, seriously, she (uBPDw) does not believe she is lying. She imagines all sorts of things and believes them to be real, but she is practically incapable of lying -- even when it's at the cost of someone's feelings.

[DAS]

She is INCAPABLE of lying (an odd aspect of her personality problems, I suppose).

uhhhh, a pwBPD who doesn't lie? i just grew wings, won the lottery and p*** gold thread.  

I think the OP was being facetious.  

No, seriously, she (uBPDw) does not believe she is lying. She imagines all sorts of things and believes them to be real, but she is practically incapable of lying -- even when it's at the cost of someone's feelings.

Oh. Well that is odd.

Nonetheless - you have no reason to believe that's what her T said.

She "imagines all sorts of things and believes them to be real" you said. So what she passes along is only what she imagines and believes to be true. Not the actual truth.

[BPDUSoCrazy]

She is INCAPABLE of lying (an odd aspect of her personality problems, I suppose).

uhhhh, a pwBPD who doesn't lie? i just grew wings, won the lottery and p*** gold thread.  

I think the OP was being facetious.  

No, seriously, she (uBPDw) does not believe she is lying. She imagines all sorts of things and believes them to be real, but she is practically incapable of lying -- even when it's at the cost of someone's feelings.

Oh. Well that is odd.

Nonetheless - you have no reason to believe that's what her T said.

She "imagines all sorts of things and believes them to be real" you said. So what she passes along is only what she imagines and believes to be true. Not the actual truth.

yup, what DAS said

[GCD145]

I would generally tend to agree with DAS, that she may fully believe that her therapist told her she doesn't have BPD and that you're the problem. However, rickosound, you say in your first post that you have no doubt that this is what her therapist said.

In the end, though, it almost doesn't matter.  Her therapist doesn't know you, has only your stbxw's side of the story, and may be being manipulated.  My T told me that she has know several therapists who have been suckered in and messed over by pwBPD.

And, if worst comes to worst, and you did NOT act as a "loving" husband "should", well, you are who you are and you can't be who you're not, so you have to forgive yourself.

That being said, based on what you've posted on the "divorce" board, you're being put through a wringer.  Assume that this is more BPD mind-&%ing and move on  

GCD145

[rickosound]

I would generally tend to agree with DAS, that she may fully believe that her therapist told her she doesn't have BPD and that you're the problem. However, rickosound, you say in your first post that you have no doubt that this is what her therapist said.

In the end, though, it almost doesn't matter.  Her therapist doesn't know you, has only your stbxw's side of the story, and may be being manipulated.  My T told me that she has know several therapists who have been suckered in and messed over by pwBPD.

And, if worst comes to worst, and you did NOT act as a "loving" husband "should", well, you are who you are and you can't be who you're not, so you have to forgive yourself.

That being said, based on what you've posted on the "divorce" board, you're being put through a wringer.  Assume that this is more BPD mind-&%ing and move on  

GCD145

Oh yeah, I know. I was just amused by it. She literally attended one therapy session and told me the T pronounced her as "completely normal." She presents EXTREMELY well.

[BPDUSoCrazy]

I would generally tend to agree with DAS, that she may fully believe that her therapist told her she doesn't have BPD and that you're the problem. However, rickosound, you say in your first post that you have no doubt that this is what her therapist said.

In the end, though, it almost doesn't matter.  Her therapist doesn't know you, has only your stbxw's side of the story, and may be being manipulated.  My T told me that she has know several therapists who have been suckered in and messed over by pwBPD.

And, if worst comes to worst, and you did NOT act as a "loving" husband "should", well, you are who you are and you can't be who you're not, so you have to forgive yourself.

That being said, based on what you've posted on the "divorce" board, you're being put through a wringer.  Assume that this is more BPD mind-&%ing and move on  

GCD145

Oh yeah, I know. I was just amused by it. She literally attended one therapy session and told me the T pronounced her as "completely normal." She presents EXTREMELY well.

creepy right? my first wife the exact same thing happened. came back "they said nothing is wrong with me!"... .riiiiiiiiiiiighhhhtttt.

[LTA]

Great thread.

I have experienced a couple different perspectives in this area. At one point I was told that my stbx'd groups and Ts had advised that because of her childhood she chooses men and realtionships that are bad for her. This could mean men who model her mother's cruel  behavior. THis would seem to  make sense if one believed her perceptions of the men she dated and the one she married (me). In other words if she tells these people what horrible things were said and done to her then, yes, it would hold water but... .I believe what is not communicated is her own behavior triggering the disfunction or her outright rewriting of events.

Sometimes I want to scream to her family and those she speaks with ":)id you ever consider the common denominator in these realtionships is HER?

I understand how her given advise could be true but others just don't experience what nons do. They do not see the irrational and indangering behavior.

This often angers and confuses me--that I am grouped as one of the many "psychos" she has been with when, in self-honest reflection, I was pretty damn understanding annd forgiving.

[schwing]

She is INCAPABLE of lying (an odd aspect of her personality problems, I suppose).

No, seriously, she (uBPDw) does not believe she is lying. She imagines all sorts of things and believes them to be real, but she is practically incapable of lying -- even when it's at the cost of someone's feelings.

... .She "imagines all sorts of things and believes them to be real" you said. So what she passes along is only what she imagines and believes to be true. Not the actual truth.

Bingo!  For people with BPD (pwBPD), their delusions and distortions are a coping mechanisms which shield them from emotional pain.  Sometimes they are protecting themselves from the pain of acknowledging that they have a mental disorder.

STBXUPDw has accused me of all sorts of horrible things over the last 5+ years. You know the drill. We have been separated six months now.

This is why she "accuses" you of "all sorts of horrible things."  In her head, she felt as if you had done all these "horrible things."  And for pwBPD feelings equal fact.  For example, if she FEELS as if you have been cheating on her or plan to "abandon" her, in her mind, you have done exactly that.  No matter how much evidence you provide which contradicts her delusion.  It is also much more difficult to prove a negative (e.g., prove that you are not guilty, or that God does not exist).

Her therapist -- whom I've never met -- told her that no "loving husband" would ever react such a way to her accusations against me. I should have taken the time to try to understand why she was making such accusations, according to the T.

She might believe that this is what her therapist told her.  But it is best that you not accept any such statement as fact unless you hear directly from the therapist.  After all, this is coming from someone who believes you capable of "horrible things."  Frankly, I doubt any therapist who can maintain their objectivity would ever believe such much less admit to such.  Moreover, IMO, it is the therapist's job to understand why she has such delusions.  And you are not trained as a therapist.

Best wishes, Schwing

[rickosound]

Great thread.

I have experienced a couple different perspectives in this area. At one point I was told that my stbx'd groups and Ts had advised that because of her childhood she chooses men and realtionships that are bad for her. This could mean men who model her mother's cruel  behavior. THis would seem to  make sense if one believed her perceptions of the men she dated and the one she married (me). In other words if she tells these people what horrible things were said and done to her then, yes, it would hold water but... .I believe what is not communicated is her own behavior triggering the disfunction or her outright rewriting of events.

Sometimes I want to scream to her family and those she speaks with ":)id you ever consider the common denominator in these realtionships is HER?

I understand how her given advise could be true but others just don't experience what nons do. They do not see the irrational and indangering behavior.

This often angers and confuses me--that I am grouped as one of the many "psychos" she has been with when, in self-honest reflection, I was pretty damn understanding annd forgiving.

STBXW has trashed me on Facebook (to 50+ people), to all our neighbors, lured a former "friend" of mine into paying her legal fees, trashed me to her entire family (which went on for years anyway); all I have told anyone except for the 2-3 closest to me about our separation (they found out what she REALLY did) is that we're trying to work things out. She is enraged because she thinks I've told everyone everything.

It wouldn't matter if God dropped out of a cloud right in front of her and took "my" side. She would just accuse me of misleading Him about our "real" relationship.

[schwing]

STBXW has trashed me on Facebook (to 50+ people), to all our neighbors, lured a former "friend" of mine into paying her legal fees, trashed me to her entire family (which went on for years anyway); all I have told anyone except for the 2-3 closest to me about our separation (they found out what she REALLY did) is that we're trying to work things out. She is enraged because she thinks I've told everyone everything.

Sometimes it is not enough that they maintain their own delusions about those who are close to them.  Sometimes they demand that everyone around them (even those who have nothing to do with them) subscribe to their delusions.  This is called a "distortion campaign."

She is enraged that ANYONE might believe another narrative than the one that is necessary to shield her from real emotional pain; she would rather believe she is a "victim" than face any culpability on her part (or face any possibility that she is mentally ill).

[rickosound]

STBXW has trashed me on Facebook (to 50+ people), to all our neighbors, lured a former "friend" of mine into paying her legal fees, trashed me to her entire family (which went on for years anyway); all I have told anyone except for the 2-3 closest to me about our separation (they found out what she REALLY did) is that we're trying to work things out. She is enraged because she thinks I've told everyone everything.

Sometimes it is not enough that they maintain their own delusions about those who are close to them.  Sometimes they demand that everyone around them (even those who have nothing to do with them) subscribe to their delusions.  This is called a "distortion campaign."

She is enraged that ANYONE might believe another narrative than the one that is necessary to shield her from real emotional pain; she would rather believe she is a "victim" than face any culpability on her part (or face any possibility that she is mentally ill).

I feel so deeply for her, still. There is a good person in there (who I know now cannot be fixed) who has been poisoned by paranoia and BPD, not to mention her toxic family.

[schwing]

I feel so deeply for her, still.

There is nothing wrong with feeling "deeply for her, still."  Just choose not to ACT on such feelings; which is of course easier said than done, but this is your choice is it not to disengage from her?

... .There is a good person in there (who I know now cannot be fixed) who has been poisoned by paranoia and BPD, not to mention her toxic family.

There may be a good person "in there" but she cannot be fixed by you.  She can only be "fixed" by herself if/when she chooses to work on herself and begin the recovery process.  You have your own recovery path to walk upon.

[rickosound]

I feel so deeply for her, still.

There is nothing wrong with feeling "deeply for her, still."  Just choose not to ACT on such feelings; which is of course easier said than done, but this is your choice is it not to disengage from her?

... .There is a good person in there (who I know now cannot be fixed) who has been poisoned by paranoia and BPD, not to mention her toxic family.

There may be a good person "in there" but she cannot be fixed by you.  She can only be "fixed" by herself if/when she chooses to work on herself and begin the recovery process.  You have your own recovery path to walk upon.

I don't want to fix her. I can't. I'm done -- almost five months separated now.

[GCD145]

I feel so deeply for her, still.

There is nothing wrong with feeling "deeply for her, still."  Just choose not to ACT on such feelings; which is of course easier said than done, but this is your choice is it not to disengage from her?

... .There is a good person in there (who I know now cannot be fixed) who has been poisoned by paranoia and BPD, not to mention her toxic family.

There may be a good person "in there" but she cannot be fixed by you.  She can only be "fixed" by herself if/when she chooses to work on herself and begin the recovery process.  You have your own recovery path to walk upon.

Schwing, your posts are always so dead on.  If there were a "hat tip" animation I would use it here!

GCD145

[little doggy]

Mine went to a psychiatrist for 2 years post separation. Diagnosis - Post Natal Depression. And I was a cold heartless male b*stard for leaving her while she was suffering with that condition. No doubt based on bpxw's convincing but wrong hostory. I never spoke to the psych. I would have pointed out the terrible behaviors dating back 20 years before we had kids. I was very disappointed with the psych - I accept bpxw has a mental illness and good bp therapy might have helped. Instead it entrenched her victim role and did nothing to deal with BPD.

[Matt]

Good discussion everybody.  I think you guys have it right.

I'm trying to think about the many members here who have said, "My SO's therapist said such-and-such about me" and whether it's ever helpful to the member here - whether a therapist has ever helped the non by telling stuff to the person with BPD.  I don't think so.  I think either the therapist is diagnosing second-hand - which is unprofessional and not helpful to anyone - or the person with BPD is distorting what they have been told.

The therapist is supposed to be helping her get better - helping her control her behavior.  I wouldn't give two cents for anything other than that.

[panchito]

Nice discussion.

I'm pretty sure now, after 5 years of relationship and marriage that my wife is a High Functioning pwBPD. Probably it took me so much time to realise because of the high funtioning. I imagined BPD would allways have a long history of changing jobs and short commings and depressions has a consecuence of their condition. I thought no one with BPD could have a successfull carrear and a tremendous image of self control maturity and common sense. My wife is a person with an elegance and carisma that captivates people to admire and respet her. No one would image the type of psichological and sometimes physical agresions she displays when she is alone with myself.

It's a total yes to the checklists of BPD. She is never to blame, she is always right. She enphatises my mistakes but minimises the importance of her's. And of course, if she recognises her mistake she justifies it with a previous one I have made before.

On the outside she is kind and stable with  coworkers and friends, but when she gets alone with me she displays all kind of tantruns agaist all of them. Black and white reasoning. She is nevr happy. Always anxious and smokes cumpulsively  on ocasions (10 cigarrets one after another although she does not smoke on a daily base) and does the same with drinking.

Some months ago we decided to go to a therapist. Individually but the same tharapist. The idea was that he would help us. He is the boss of a common friend that told us he is very good.

It was avery bad experience. The guy started to see har some consultations before seeing me. And it seems he was not so good because at the end he tried to convince me I was BPD (in front of my eyes) andmy wife also told me a bunch of crap he told hr about me, like I was selfich and I had no emphaty (he would like to show you books with the definitions of what he diagnosed, so he showed my wife a book tittled "zero empaty" supposedly to define people like me and like a coworker of hers with whom she has a lot of conflict (althogh her coworker does not suspect she has). She bought this book and invited me to do an empathy test from it. Mine was near 90%. Her's a lot lower. I told hr hr therapist my result and he was like shocked. Nonethess neithr him or her changed my diagnose. I'm bad and selfish and my wife apparently has a tendency to feel attracted to bad guys like me (according to the therapist althoug she does not agree).

So you see, I ended up with a worten relationship because now, everytime we getinto a arguing she trows me that the therapist warned her. Ha! Forgot to tell that aft

Some months we bot decided to leave theraphy because the guy was charging 50 euros for 45 minutes but the consultations acctually started to be progressively shorter and lately after 25 minutes we would end up the consultation.

I think she displayed her high functioning role together with hr victim role and fooled the thereapist to diagnose me tne BPD. Nonetheless It afected me because I sometimes even doubt myself. You could be thinking: "Panchito... . maybe it is you not her the one with BPD, because one of the symptoms is to blame the other". Maybe I' m in denial and hr therapist was right, but I assure you I've been myself into therapy before and my problem was by the contrary to blame myself too much. I do not invent or create her being anxious and full of internal agressiveness. I do not criticise her friends or coworkers. It is her that investigates the personal life of my coworkesr of tne oposite sex and displays jealousi tantruns about my relations of friendhip with these  coworkers. (Watervr the job I'm in my coworkres of the oposite sex are all some bithes that just whant to get laid... . )

Does anyone experienced something like this? Does anyone relates? I beleive its a lot worse to have a HFBpd than a LFBpd regarding outside support because people doe not beleive you. People beleive her. Even my family loves her although if they imagined what she says about them all they would be shocked (except my mother because she got to see one or two of my wife tantruns)

[panchito]

Sorry for the writing faults. I'm writing from my tablet and I'm still getting used to it... .

[Madison66]

I've posted my experiences with three rounds of couple's T with my uBPD/NPD ex gf of three years.  First T saw through the smoke and mirrors of my ex gf and tried to get her to commit to individual T.  My ex gf quit that T within a few sessions saying she didn't feel safe.  We then burned through 2 more T's while she went to see another T individually.  It was all a waste of time because she never took responsibility for her words and actions.  I heard all kinds of bs that her T supposedly said.  What does it matter what your ex says his/her T stated when you are not happy being in an unfulfilling and emotionally abusive r/s?   

[Matt]

Panchito,

First, just a comment about our customs here - usually we keep each thread focused on the member who started it - the "OM" (original poster).  You can start your own thread - you'll be the OM - so that one can be focused on your stuff.

But to comment on what you raised... .

I think this is one of the reasons it's important to make use of objective testing, like the MMPI-2.  Many therapists, even some psychologists, think they can diagnose somebody just by talking to them.  Maybe some of them can - I don't know - but it's not science, it's just perceptions.  In other scientific fields, if a chemist or physicist claimed to have determined something without any objective information, they would be considered a complete fraud, but unfortunately it's still common for psychologists and therapists to claim they can diagnose somebody without testing, and that can make things worse, as you have found out the hard way.

If the diagnosis - who has BPD, or something else, and who doesn't - if that matters, I would suggest paying the $500 to get the MMPI-2, and find out for sure who has what.

But I think Madison is really onto something here:  If your wife's behavior is unacceptable to you, and if she is not going to change it, then maybe the "diagnosis" doesn't matter.  Maybe all that matters is whether you are willing to live with her as she is or not.  If there are no kids involved, and you decide that you don't want to spend the rest of your life with somebody who behaves the way she does, you have to end the relationship.  (If there are kids involved, that's much more complicated of course.)

I'm not saying that someone with BPD or another psychological disorder can't be helped;  in fact, what I've read - and I'm not a professional in this field so there's surely a lot I'm not aware of - but from what I've read, my understanding is that when the right kind of treatment is used - one method is called ":)BT" - dialectic behavior therapy - in more than 80% of cases where the individual stays committed to therapy for 5 years, "remission of major symptoms" is achieved.  Not a "cure", but the behaviors are brought under control.

But the problem is, most people who actually have BPD never accept it and commit to therapy, so they won't get better and they might get worse.  It sounds like that's where your wife is - not taking responsibility for her behavior.

You can lead by example, by finding a therapist you feel good about - don't even mention it to your wife because then it will become part of the fight - just find someone who can be a resource for you, and ask to be evaluated using the MMPI-2 or another objective instrument.  And see what you learn, and take it from there.

I did that, as part of our divorce, and it was very useful to me.  My results showed a high risk for addiction, which was a complete surprise to me - I had no idea.  But there was no reason to doubt it - it's an objective test based on many years of experience with many thousands of people.  So I asked the psychologist what he recommended, and of course he said, "If you're not drinking or using drugs (and I wasn't) just keep doing that, and keep seeing your counselor - keep doing what you're doing and you should be fine."  So I followed his recommendation, and I'm glad I did.

Your results might be perfect, but probably not - I've never heard of anybody having perfect results.  It's more likely that you'll learn something you didn't know about yourself, and then you can take that into account and do what you decide is best.

Your wife could do all that too, of course, but that's her choice, not yours.  Until she decides she needs to change, and takes positive steps to get help, you can't realistically expect her behavior to change, so you have to decide if you want to be with her, as she is.