The man, the mirror and possibly acceptance?

[David Dare]

Ha!  Sorry, I get a bit long-winded.  I think the short answer would be yes, I think it's thought reform, but I don't think it's the result of external efforts to manipulate thoughts.  I think it is one part discovering an emotional utopia when we get involved with our BPD lover, and one part us conforming ourselves to try and fit the BPD mold and sustain the relationship.

I am at work with a subpar browser that doesn't allow multipage viewing, but google "BPD relationship recovery" and go to the "Me Project".  It is an extensive blog written by someone who recovered from a BPD relationship.

[RedRightHand]

Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like 6 of 1, half dozen of another. haha. I was thinking of it as the BPD training us to fit the BPD mold and we going along with it and it sounds like you are saying we are molding ourselves to it and them going along.

Thanks for the resources... .I've read some, but not the Me project. I will check it out.

[RedRightHand]

ps. I don't think it was long winded... .I'm still struggling to wrap my head around the whole thing!

[turtlesoup]

@Turtlesoup

I worry I wont feel that way with another woman but Im beginning to think I wont feel that way because I'll never be that man again. Maybe I'll be a better one? And not have to rely on permission to be myself? I dunno, this is all new to me so our talking is very off the cuff. I have no real solid ideas at this point!

I understand this concern.  I don't know how you will choose to approach this problem, but here is how I came to address it: In my case, I needed that intense feeling (of a BPD relationship) in order to overcome the fear I had within me.  I was so deeply afraid of rejection and ultimately of intimacy that I NEEDED such intense feelings in order to overcome my trepidation.  I needed the intensity and perhaps also the familiarity in order to engage some deep and dysfunctional issues I had as a result of my upbringing (thanks mom).

I came to realize that the women with whom I had such chemistry, are harbingers of a great deal of pain.  I decided it would be better for me to work through these personal issues without recreating them in my intimate interpersonal relationships (ie, such as in therapy as 2010 suggests).  So I did have to give up this "feeling."  Because I decided it would not lead me towards happiness.  I chose to believe that happiness can be obtained on a different path.  And I did have to alter my definition of "happiness."  And I am confident that my current definition is improved over my prior beliefs.

You may not be able to "feel that way with another woman" but you need to consider that how you felt is at least as dependent upon you (and your relationship with yourself) as it is on the behavior of other women.  Other people don't "make" you feel any way without your consent.  How you feel about the next woman, may depend on you as much as it does on her.

Thanks Schwing,

In one way its a funny thing to worry about because I am only engaging with women quite rarely, been on two dates, one of which turned into a mini relationship with another inappropriate woman but at least I cut it short at the  |> stage. Which I am happy to think is progress on my part. I suppose you can not rush "being ready" as it's something that comes with time and reflection so worrying about how I may feel with another woman may be a pointless worry at this moment as I am no clairvoyant.

It is important to realise that indeed, how I will come to feel is about me and I'm going to look at this positively and try to use it as a catalyst for change and maybe then I will attract the kinds women that are suitable for me postBPD!

Again, thanks for your input and its great to see so many ideas in this thread from everyone.

[David Dare]

RedRightHand:

To be honest, it is definitely possible that my ex or other people out there deliberately mold their partner's thoughts.  The problem is, how would we ever know?  Even if they admit to it, it could just be another expost facto lie to bloat their ego.

At first, yes, I felt like a victim, like she did it intentionally.  It was because I was hurting so much.  I eventually realized that I'll never really know, and to put the onus on her was copping out of my own responsibilty in the matter.

[RedRightHand]

RedRightHand:

To be honest, it is definitely possible that my ex or other people out there deliberately mold their partner's thoughts.  The problem is, how would we ever know?  Even if they admit to it, it could just be another expost facto lie to bloat their ego.

At first, yes, I felt like a victim, like she did it intentionally.  It was because I was hurting so much.  I eventually realized that I'll never really know, and to put the onus on her was copping out of my own responsibilty in the matter.

Point taken. I do not think we will ever know. I believe the disorder sets out to mold their partners into something that suits the disorder.

[cmk]

i wonder... .is it a false self or just another aspect of your personality, albeit a lesser part. I think that even Nons have a dominant personality as well as lesser parts. What if your lesser part just took over with her?

(Maybe I am understanding false self incorrectly.)

[David Dare]

Point taken. I do not think we will ever know. I believe the disorder sets out to mold their partners into something that suits the disorder.

Agreed.  My ex was like a host for carrying the disorder.  It's kind of sad, really.\

i wonder... .is it a false self or just another aspect of your personality, albeit a lesser part. I think that even Nons have a dominant personality as well as lesser parts. What if your lesser part just took over with her?

(Maybe I am understanding false self incorrectly.)

You could be right.  It's hard to precisely define.  I am no professional, like I say.  I just know that as time has passed and the fog lifts my perspective has changed.  I'm not taking it quite as personally, which allows me to look at myself a little more objectively.  And with this new objectivity I sometimes notice myself drifting back into thought processes that only existed while I was with my ex, and the feelings start to burn again.

It's tough to describe.  I consider "false self" as a part of my personality.  It wasn't like everything had changed.  It was more like dealing with something that was new to me which carried these powerful feelings, causing me to try new things as I adapted.  They caused me to think differently, mostly to try and numb the absurdity of what I was involved with.  I could explain it a hundred different ways if I took the time.

[cmk]

David,

Thanks for taking the time to try to explain it to me. I feel like Nons have different aspects to our personalities which can shine in different situations. It is different with pwBPD. They really don't have one baseline sense of self so they can change so drastically from situation to situation as needed for their purposes.

[Dorian]

I don't have to stand with my mouth agog wondering how someone could be so careless and hurtful, how they could talk of a future to your face and be cheating behind your back, because it's not about her, its about me, and its the most freeing realisation I've had thus far.

Thanks for your post, turtle. I'm also at about 6 months and I'm coming to the same conclusions. Perhaps I never knew what love really is. I've had three of these intense abusive relationships with BPD women (2 diagnosed, 1 likely). This one was enough to make me finally question my assumptions about "falling in love".  Working on it with a therapist now, too.

[2010]

Is that "false self" you mentioned kind of like the result of their thought reform or the person they trained you to be?

A false self hides your inner child for protection against the thought that *you are insignificant, don’t exist, are unworthy, unlovable, doomed to a horrible outcome... .* The false self prevents these deeply repressed thoughts from surfacing. This is a primitive form of your own *splitting* concerning yourself.

When the false self doesn’t work anymore- it’s been challenged. And the only time it was ever challenged in the past was when it was being formed.

It involves your earliest survival instincts to attach to your first object; Mother. It is considered pre-oedipal- meaning it comes before Father enters the picture- at the age between 18 mos. and 3 years, coincidentally, at the time you are beginning to walk, explore and develop the “self.”

And yes, it’s all your Mother’s doing- with a slam dunk refinishing by your Father, once you reach the Oedipal stage- but it’s the earliest object (Mother) that sets the mood for abandonment or engulfment.

Was she able to allow you the freedom to become your own person? (Smothering, Doting, Spoiling = engulfment) Was she there when you returned from exploring? Was she available for support or encouragement? Yes/No? (Neglect, Absenteeism = abandonment)

A child seeks to understand what life is meant to be- (Questions: am I supposed to stay here with Mommy? Can I explore elsewhere? Will Mommy allow it if I go and then return? Will she be mad? All of these questions are determined by the earliest attachment- the earliest role model- the caretaker = and our SURVIVAL depended upon her. The false self was what we had to come up with to please her- by determining what was valuable to her- and guarantee our survival (bond) -this set our survival skill set into our adult lives with OTHER people.

Relying too heavily on this false solution meant the child eliminated the chance at a real self, (one that was REAL and not reactive to capricious and punitive caretakers who were responsible for survival.)

Our false self protected our real person from being hurt. Years later as adults, we select people to hear the same message we learned as children- and we attract them with our false selves- because the false self is what we used initially to help us with the parent.

Scenario 1:

Act i: A child has learned that the greatest valuation is compliance. Thoughtful, respectful, shielded, honorable, valuable. These children sometimes act as little therapists for the family- mediating, caretaking. Their false selves hide the fact that they wish someone would take care of them. They are, in fact, little “parents.”

Fast forward: The child grows into a very capable, considerate, caring adult child- whose self esteem is based on “good.” Their entire lives have been an effort to prove how good they are- and a certain psychological construct is formed of being a Hero/Heroine.

Deep down they wish others would acknowledge the sacrifices they’ve made and see the good- that they see in themselves.

Act ii: Enter Romantic interest- one who mirrors the good and shows an incredible, life affirming spot light of interest in the false self. The adult child thinks, “Finally! My love has arrived! Another human being sees the “good” in me- and I have been proven right. I AM a good person. I can solve anything. I am gifted. I will show this romance that I have come through difficulties and emerged as a mature force. I understand life.”

Act iii. Romantic interest mirrors the false self of the adult child- “yes, I am also a good person. I can solve anything (with you by my side) I see the good in you- BUT you see the good in me too. I am your Hero/Heroine. I will save you.” This is the false self of the Borderline- who has attached to a Host. The substitute stand-in for the Parent.

Act iv: The false self of the Adult Child goes down temporarily due to hidden fears.  The real self emerges- “perhaps Im not as all good as I thought.” The romantic partner, who is now a stand-in for the parent -is she available for support or encouragement? Yes/No? 

No- the romantic partner has substituted the adult child for her own stand-in- the smothering, hypercritical parent. The romantic partner hears “UNHAPPY, FEAR, BAD, WRONG…” and it’s just a flick of the switch to re-live her early childhood.

The idealization of each other has now confirmed each other’s greatest fear- that the real self is lacking- but also, that the false self is no longer WORKING to offset the fear.

Masterson felt that the quest in therapy was to show the reaction formations and reasoning for creation of the false self. This was done in a transference setting with a therapist as a stand-in for the parent- the patient would project onto the therapist the reactive formation- the therapist would identify it and then gently guide and re-program the reactive formations to better suit the true self.

But how many people actually get the chance to do this? How many people actually go into therapy (unless they’ve had a severe crisis?) Most people continue on through their lives with their false selves in place and do just fine.

It’s only when you choose a partner that pushes you into a hard place- that you really understand that’s it’s just your real self fighting to get back to the surface. It’s covered in crud and dying to get a breath.

Act v: Stop fighting with it and let it through. Understand, and grieve the old self. It’s no longer serviceable. Uncover the real you. Your romantic interest was just a tool (literally and figuratively) that dug deep.   

[Dorian]

2010, thanks for making me aware of the Masterson book. These are potent ideas and I see here a model for how my r/s with my exBPDw operated. 

[Dorian]

need to explore:

which is my false self? I think there are more than one ... .

primary (from childhood) false self: helping and wanting to fix things. being the hero and rescuer. taking abuse and remaining calm, forgiving any wrong. "jesus complex"

secondary (from adolescence?) false self: tough guy, a fighter, good in bed, won't take any flak.

THE 1mil $$ question… what is my real self?

[mshell]

Thanks 2010. Your insightful replies help me make meaning of the nightmare that was an 18 month relationship with a high-functioning BPD ex. Understanding a bit of the etiology helps my emotions to temporarily disengage from the shame and pain I feel.

But how many people actually get the chance to do this? How many people actually go into therapy (unless they’ve had a severe crisis?) Most people continue on through their lives with their false selves in place and do just fine.

It’s only when you choose a partner that pushes you into a hard place- that you really understand that’s it’s just your real self fighting to get back to the surface. It’s covered in crud and dying to get a breath.

Act v: Stop fighting with it and let it through. Understand, and grieve the old self. It’s no longer serviceable. Uncover the real you. Your romantic interest was just a tool (literally and figuratively) that dug deep.

Well said. So, I *did* choose him? It is hard to feel any amount of gratitude for the experience of being cast into the role of scapegoat. He was adamant that although his mother tried to sabotage his life and his ex-wife cruelly rejected him over a decade, that he brought none of this into the relationship. He even told me that the sacrifice of loving me, a Japanese American woman, brought his father's life full circle, since his father killed Japanese soldiers during WWII.

Rather than a romantic ending to his next screenplay, it feels to me like a repeat of past pain. He hit a grand slam when he dumped me. I became the stand-in for his bad mother and his bad ex-wife. I am the bad whore who broke his spirit, and the bad J*p whose sacrifice redeemed his father's life. I was eviscerated and left to die in a ditch just like his father had done during the war. Easier to "kill" me than look at his own pain. You can imagine how this went over when I said it. Dumb, I know. How could he ever admit this?

I am in heavy duty psychotherapy trying to deal with the fallout. I must accept that a relationship with him will never work out, no matter how deeply I though it was "love". Dropping the false self means having to stare straight into the possible abyss that might be my own real self.

[RedRightHand]

2010

Thanks for the explanation!... .it rings quite a few bells for me except for the when and how. Do you think it is possible to develop a false self on your own and later? or maybe a different way (such as Father) later in developement?

[reneeth]

Great post for the 'emergence' of healing ones self, which, I believe is the journey we all have to go through after a relationship with BPD.

I can relate to the 'false self' in a Don Juan sort of way... .when he is getting Carlos to face his fears.  I don't know if its the semantics but 'for me' who I was in the BPD r/s was any thing but false. 

What I was, that has been exposed to me, was a very insecure, fearful, vulnerable, wounded person that I need to help, to not feel that way.  I guess you could call it a 'false self', but it was very real and I didn't just make it up, or become that way because of this relationship.  That part of myself has been there for a long time and BPD made me face that and exposed it to me. 

So, I think the 'authentic self' , for me is the part of me that is healing and taking care of those issues to becoming whole, and self loving and secure within myself.  I guess I don't want to reject a 'false self' and deny it (oh, that wasn't me, it was just the cause of a relationship to BPD person), put it on a book self, or discard it.  Because it will still need 'fixin' if I don't fix it.

I know this is just another way of saying the same thing, but it seems important to me.  And I do love your posts 2010, youv'e taught me alot .thanks  Reneeth

[Intent_to_learn]

It’s only when you choose a partner that pushes you into a hard place- that you really understand that’s it’s just your real self fighting to get back to the surface. It’s covered in crud and dying to get a breath.

This jumped out at me and made me say right out loud, "Aha!" 

[ve01603]

Makes me glad that now that mine wouldn't have sex.  I think he was a narcissist. Cerebral asexual.

[David Dare]

Thanks for the great post, 2010. 

False self or not, the bottom line for me is that the r/s wouldn't have worked regardless of which self was in action.  That is an important conclusion, because for me, early on,  I would think about ways the r/s might have been sustained, what I could have done differently, etc.  The truth is that the long term potential wasn't there, and I was always hoping it could be, or pretending that it was.  It didn't help much that she would express a mutual commitment, but like they say, and I read so many times here, her actions never cashed the checks her mouth was writing.

And I believe there was another dynamic at play as it seemed like we were both sustaining false selfs, which makes me wonder who triggered who.  Would I have experienced that false self if I hadn't been dealing with her's, or did it happen on my own?  It was probably a mixture of both.

I believe I'm getting to a point where the last step is to just completely forget about her.  Chalk it up as what it was, a learning experience, and see that I was with the wrong person at the wrong time.  It was fun, then it was horrible, then it was over, and then I recovered.  Almost... .

[Intent_to_learn]

And I believe there was another dynamic at play as it seemed like we were both sustaining false selfs, which makes me wonder who triggered who. 

Wow, this is SO true.  I totally get this now.  And in the end, it makes no difference, really, who triggered who.  What is important is that the real connection, true self to true self, never actually took place.  What remains now is the willingness to form a relationship with ourselves that is authentic... .that is first and foremost.  Only after that can we venture out to practice relating to others from our authentic selves. I imagine it will be like learning to talk or learning to walk, will take time and patience and practice.

[RedRightHand]

This is such a great thread. This idea of "false self" has me thinking alot. It rings true on many levels and I've even said I'm not the same person I was then. I've grown and learned alot about myself after/because of the BPD relationship. I've called myself naive,gullible and innocent back then... .too nice, too trusting, too willing to forgive, too loyal... .do you think that might be the "false self"? or parts of it? The whole concept makes me feel like I'm sorta on the right track for some more self discovery but I'm still struggling with the idea of how my responsibility comes into play with it. I do not feel like I've done anything intentionally about creating a false self, but then that makes me sound like I'm trying to be a victim.

[Intent_to_learn]

I do not feel like I've done anything intentionally about creating a false self, but then that makes me sound like I'm trying to be a victim.

The false self was created to protect the wounded inner child.  It is a defense mechanism and was created on a totally unconscious level.  The creation of the false self is not something to feel shameful or guilty about. It is a very typical reaction.  Once we recognize it in ourselves, we can also recognize it in others, without blame or shame.  It's a hopeful thing IMO.  It means we can change if we work hard enough and want it badly enough. 

[turtlesoup]

In my case I was creating a false sense, a false future and a false rel. the whole thing was based on "when she gets better". This was fuelled by her own words that things would, indeed, get better if I clung on. Ive said before how I knew really that I didn't like the situation, her words and reactions, i wanted to return to the feelings I only caught glimpses of and that was held up in my mind as out future. All based on hope not reality.

Maybe a big part of our upset and despair is the fact that most of us here have given up that hope, that's the loss I dealt with. I don't now and never really did the miss the here and now with her.

[ve01603]

And I believe there was another dynamic at play as it seemed like we were both sustaining false selfs, which makes me wonder who triggered who. 

Wow, this is SO true.  I totally get this now.  And in the end, it makes no difference, really, who triggered who.  What is important is that the real connection, true self to true self, never actually took place.  What remains now is the willingness to form a relationship with ourselves that is authentic... .that is first and foremost.  Only after that can we venture out to practice relating to others from our authentic selves. I imagine it will be like learning to talk or learning to walk, will take time and patience and practice.

Because if we want someone with the right qualities we have to possess them ourselves.

[RedRightHand]

I do not feel like I've done anything intentionally about creating a false self, but then that makes me sound like I'm trying to be a victim.

The false self was created to protect the wounded inner child.  It is a defense mechanism and was created on a totally unconscious level.  The creation of the false self is not something to feel shameful or guilty about. It is a very typical reaction.  Once we recognize it in ourselves, we can also recognize it in others, without blame or shame.  It's a hopeful thing IMO.  It means we can change if we work hard enough and want it badly enough. 

This makes much sense to me. I believe I did (and do) recognize it in the "me" I was in that relationship and probably before that... .if that makes sense... .but I also believe at some point post BPD relationship -something changed about me AND the way I see it in others. The name "false self" still doesn't sit well with me but maybe that's the shame thing. How would one know if they changed and lost that false self? How would one know if there was still work to be done with oneself? What would one do to change and lose that false self? This is sorta very surreal for me right now because I've actually said words like "I've finally learned who the real me is" recently. I do feel like I've changed and the way I see others has changed. I can now see Toxic people and PDs very clearly in my personal life. I've established boundaries in my personal life. Much has changed in my life except I cannot get over the feeling of a lingering hook in me from my Ex BPD GF. I still have intrusive thoughts of her and I do not like it. I feel like I've stalled out in my recovery and growth and am in need of direction. This thread and the concept of false self feels like the right track but also feels somewhat allusive and just out of my grasp. arrgh! I hate havin an itch I cannot quite scratch!

In my case I was creating a false sense, a false future and a false rel. the whole thing was based on "when she gets better". This was fuelled by her own words that things would, indeed, get better if I clung on. Ive said before how I knew really that I didn't like the situation, her words and reactions, i wanted to return to the feelings I only caught glimpses of and that was held up in my mind as out future. All based on hope not reality.

Maybe a big part of our upset and despair is the fact that most of us here have given up that hope, that's the loss I dealt with. I don't now and never really did the miss the here and now with her.

I think that hope I clung to is related to this false self concept. False self with a false future. A self deception that she used to manipulate me and serve her needs and disorder. It also made it very easy for her to lie to me and have me believe it. All she had to do was tailor every lie to that false future!

[Intent_to_learn]

The name "false self" still doesn't sit well with me but maybe that's the shame thing.

RedRH, I believe the term "false" is used because it refers to adaptive behaviors that we learn and take on early in life to help us cope with inter-relational dysfunctions.  These adaptations are not our true nature, but are taken up, like slipping on a coat to protect ourselves from the weather.   If it protects us and keeps us warm and safe, we incorporate it into our personalities.  Eventually, it becomes so much a part of us that we can no longer imagine our bodies without our coats on.  It's like that.  Not a shameful thing at all.

It's amazing how this process works, how threads like this can stimulate questions and further avenues of growth for us.  It's like we are all on a quest, our own personal Hero's Quest, each quest unique and yet the search is the same.  I laughed at your "itch" that you can't quite scratch.  I get that all the time, Red. 

[RedRightHand]

The name "false self" still doesn't sit well with me but maybe that's the shame thing.

RedRH, I believe the term "false" is used because it refers to adaptive behaviors that we learn and take on early in life to help us cope with inter-relational dysfunctions.  These adaptations are not our true nature, but are taken up, like slipping on a coat to protect ourselves from the weather.   If it protects us and keeps us warm and safe, we incorporate it into our personalities.  Eventually, it becomes so much a part of us that we can no longer imagine our bodies without our coats on.  It's like that.  Not a shameful thing at all.

Would you be kind enought to point me in a direction of a resource from which I could learn more about this and how to eliminate it?

[Intent_to_learn]

This one looks promising... .

www.amazon.com/Search-Real-Self-Unmasking-Personality/dp/0029202922/ref=sr_1_24?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279659669&sr=8-24

CS

[seeker after truth]

Turtle - haven't been on here for ages but mainly came on now to see how you were keeping. And with the greatest respect, genuinely, what on earth are you going on about? Your many posts mark you as a great guy. A great guy who simply encountered a lesser individual who despite your characteristic best efforts, is both beyond and unworthy of your help! As you will come to realise, nothing that requires too much self analysis, just a setback. A setback, as I know you realise,  infinitesimally smaller than the young Afghan who just lost all four limbs. A good looking lad with a caring heart. With no need for self examination, just a realisation of the fact along with a resolve to be yourself. Don't let a bag of snot impair a person possessed of the quality to be a great husband and dad his children will be proud of. Come on lad, you are FAR too good to allow yourself to be downtrodden. x 

seeker.   

[David Dare]

In my case I was creating a false sense, a false future and a false rel. the whole thing was based on "when she gets better". This was fuelled by her own words that things would, indeed, get better if I clung on. Ive said before how I knew really that I didn't like the situation, her words and reactions, i wanted to return to the feelings I only caught glimpses of and that was held up in my mind as out future. All based on hope not reality.

Maybe a big part of our upset and despair is the fact that most of us here have given up that hope, that's the loss I dealt with. I don't now and never really did the miss the here and now with her.

Interesting take.  I like the usage of "False Sense".  Like a false sense of security.  That was what it was like for me.  Actually, almost everything about it was false.  I no longer look at it like I was dealing with a person, but with the PD.  

The only here and now that I enjoyed was the beginning.  After that, no, it wasn't very enjoyable.  And I remember being sad all the time, looking at her, how beautiful she is, thinking about how great it would be if we could get on the same page.  Insert (false) hope for the future.  

All the conversations, flirting, admiration, flashes of affection, all false.  All the yelling, lying, inconstancies, infidelity, all true.