The man, the mirror and possibly acceptance?

[cmk]

Am I the only one who is getting depressed by this thread? I just can't believe that all the good was "false" and all the bad "real". I just find that way too depressing. I think people are both bad and good. BPDs included.

[turtlesoup]

Am I the only one who is getting depressed by this thread? I just can't believe that all the good was "false" and all the bad "real". I just find that way too depressing. I think people are both bad and good. BPDs included.

I don't think that's what I am saying, dunno about the others. It's not a question of all good and all bad for me it's a question of my own pain seeking out and coupling with hers, even though they were very different, I was a fit for her and since coming out of that relationship I am accepting it and using my new realisations to fuel my life, all aspects. Since i've found my new way to self soothe, to feel alive for now and not looking at a projected future or unimportant past I am much happier. This is not a depressing thread - at least for my account, it's a joyous one!

[cmk]

Actually, your posts aren't the one that are depressing me. It is some of the others.

[RedRightHand]

This one looks promising... .

www.amazon.com/Search-Real-Self-Unmasking-Personality/dp/0029202922/ref=sr_1_24?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279659669&sr=8-24

CS

I already ordered this one as a result of reading a post from 2010 a couple of days ago. Thanks for the tips! I've been checking some stuff out. I really need to learn more about false self as some of it seems to apply. Some of the info seems way off track from certain sources but I need a good over view.

Am I the only one who is getting depressed by this thread? I just can't believe that all the good was "false" and all the bad "real". I just find that way too depressing. I think people are both bad and good. BPDs included.

I'm not getting depressed by this thread. On the contrary, it is giving mea reason to have hope. I don't believe people are bad or good or both... .people are just people. It's actions and behaviors that are neutral or bad or good.

[cmk]

Of course I meant behavior and actions, not people. LOL

[Reneehsv]

I have been following the thread and I think the topic and posts have been great. I've gotten a lot of good info to think about from it.

[ravill]

I know that I have really learned to have compassion for myself as I have studied and learned and reflected on my just horrible rollercoaster of a BPD relationship.

And it lets me have a small amount of compassion for her. Instead of all the hatred which stemmed from all the name calling, yelling, abusive powercontrol of her smile, sex... .ugh... .

Compassion, give it to yourself first. "They" (our BPD) won't (can't!) give it to you.

*sigh*

[David Dare]

Speaking for myself and my situation, the only real good that came out of my r/s are the lessons learned.  And, looking at it like I do helps me to forget about her.  There were some great times, at the beach, in the bedroom, etc, but why cling to the "good" (real) memories?  Where is she now?  I doubt I will ever see her again, so why hold onto the "good" (real)?  And, quite frankly, there was more bad than good.  Or, perhaps more fake than real is a better way to describe it.  I don't want to think about her anymore.  It just starts the whole, "what was real/ what was fake" mental debate to play out again.  I just can't get emotionally invested in her again, even if it's in memory.

[RedRightHand]

  There were some great times, at the beach, in the bedroom, etc, but why cling to the "good" (real) memories?  Where is she now?  I doubt I will ever see her again, so why hold onto the "good" (real)?  And, quite frankly, there was more bad than good.  Or, perhaps more fake than real is a better way to describe it.  I don't want to think about her anymore.  It just starts the whole, "what was real/ what was fake" mental debate to play out again. 

I think our perceptions were real for us, but they were presenting a fake persona to us. BPDs most certainly present fake fronts to their BFs/husbands. I believe some of it is part of their cycle of relationships dynamics and serves a purpose of their disorder on a subconcious level... .they are not aware of it. That is sad. I also know a part of it is 100% conscious deception on their part and that involves both hiding "things" from us and being fake to us in various ways. This part is rather insidious and not only involves serving the disorders need to conceal itself but also the BPDs intentional and cruel punishment of the BF/husband. This abuse is most likely a transference of all the rage from early trauma... .i.e. They are punishing you for their father sexually abusing them at 4 years old! They are not aware of why they are punishing you, but they are aware that they are being cruel and they do it anyway! They even gain some pleasure from doing it. This part makes me angry.

[cmk]

Redrighthand,

I understand where you are coming from, I just don't like to think that it is like this for all BPDs. Yes they do evil and abusive things, but to think that they are purposefully doing things that are cruel makes them out to be sadists or sociopaths. I don't think they all are.

[2010]

I think our perceptions were real for us, but they were presenting a fake persona to us.

Yes, you are correct. It is fake- but it is *your* fake persona that they are presenting back to you. They are mirroring you. You see, Borderline isn't about some vengeful retribution of a fatherly betrayal- it is about not being able to form a "real self." Borderlines have no idea what a real self means. Everything they do is a mirroring of another person. Their entire lives have been attached to others- like children on a leash. They haven't been allowed to go out into the World and explore. They haven't been allowed to tend to their own gardens or enjoy achievements- other than achievement to improve *or extend* the bond with another human being. That explains the lying and deceit- (which isn't done because they are out to hurt you) it's their protection *against* the idea that they have never been allowed a real self of their own.  They have no idea where to begin- they suffer from immense psychic pain (which they try to absolve through cathartic exorcisms like cutting, submissive/dominant sex and other endorphin releases) most of the time this is done unsuccessfully and results in repressing the pain until they become auto immune disorders.  

They seek to attach to a person that REPRESENTS the false self they wish they could have. Some theorists suggest that narcissists are very attractive to Borderlines because they both mirror each other.

For the rest of us- we have found things we enjoy- but we did this at the sacrifice of not having "the leash." Our false selves served us as both protection against society as well as the reality that we really did not have anywhere else to go. We had to fit in. There was no return. In contrast with the Borderline- who never left to go out on their own.

When the two meet- it's like kismet. Say, I love Gardening. Gardening, says the BPD? I love it too!  It's the concept of gardening that you love that is then mirrored- but the actuality is that everything they touch is now dead and brown. Your response: I thought you loved gardening! Their response: I do! You shake your head and say, you know what, I think you're lying. They argue - you are persecuting me!

Reality: They were never allowed to garden as a child. They were never given permission to detach from another person and have the ability to grow something outside of a symbiotic bond. They dont know how to detach without mirroring you- or anyone else they think can give them the false self they need. It is their shame and it is their guilt combined in the false self (and the thinking that maybe they deserved your wrath) that keeps them lying. You see, it's a disorder that serves a purpose of protecting the real self- one that hasn't been allowed to exist.

And Borderline personality has NOTHING in common with sexual abuse except for coincidence. To state that sexual abuse is a prerequisite for BPD is undermining the many people with BPD who never had a parent touch them inappropriately. This is about *not* being able to form a SELF outside of another person's SELF. The only self they've ever had was a mirror of others.

False selves are how we wish to appear to others. They are the make-up we wear, the clothing we buy, the car we drive, the education we receive, they are the twitterings of the twitter who needs proof that she exists, they are the plastic surgery of the pretty woman with low self esteem, they are rescuing behaviors and withdrawing behaviors- in short, they are anything we can think that can protect our real self from harm. If you want to know what your real self feels like- go into a hospital for surgery- and be stripped down to nothing- then try to use the false self for protection. Make-up? No. Car? No. Education? Nope. Rescue someone else? Highly Unlikely. Withdraw? Not if you want to live.

The false self is what we think makes us distinctive, different and therefore special.

You will find your false self crushed, when it is mirrored, reflected back to you in your highest glory and then discarded as worthless by another person who has no self of their own- and must borrow yours. In doing so, they become a Hurricane that strips away everything that you have worked for and presented to the World. And it's up to you to re-build, keeping what you can salvage and tossing what's no longer useful.

[2idealistic]

They seek to attach to a person that REPRESENTS the false self they wish they could have. Some theorists suggest that narcissists  are very attractive to Borderlines because they both mirror each other.[/quote]
I wish I could say that it was a  |> at the time rather than an intellectual curiosity, but my BPDex commented that her therapist had suggested that her estranged husband seemed to present with narcissistic tendencies (if not disorder), recognizing of course that this is my Borderline ex filtering her perceptions about her unhappy marriage/spouse to a therapist, but later, when she was trying to throw me off the scent of discovery of the affair she had conducted with another man, she commented that he referred to himself as "Mr. Awesome . . . just like [her husband] used to do."

This was at the time I was negotiatiing (with myself really) some kind of reconciliation of how she could have a "fling, the result of temporary insanity," with much younger man who reminded her "of my husband when we were younger and we were happy."  My admonition to her (foolishly, naively, stupidly--also negotiating with my False self, if you will) was that "you do realize that there's a strong likelihood that this younger version of your husband that you became infatuated with will ultimately become the same guy as the husband you dismissed."

The Borderline/Narcissist attraction axis was quite real, and quite troubling in the way that all illogical BPD behavior and characteristics are.

[RedRightHand]

I think our perceptions were real for us, but they were presenting a fake persona to us.

And Borderline personality has NOTHING in common with sexual abuse except for coincidence. To state that sexual abuse is a prerequisite for BPD is undermining the many people with BPD who never had a parent touch them inappropriately.

I never said sexual abuse is a prerequisite for BPD. I would like to know the source that said "except for coincidence" as I've never heard that before. My understanding is that sexual abuse is one sure fire way of destroying a self. Abandoning self (through dissociation) is about the only way to survive such trauma at such a young age. I never said it's the only way to lose self.

I think our perceptions were real for us, but they were presenting a fake persona to us.

When the two meet- it's like kismet. Say, I love Gardening. Gardening, says the BPD? I love it too!  It's the concept of gardening that you love that is then mirrored- but the actuality is that everything they touch is now dead and brown. Your response: I thought you loved gardening! Their response: I do! You shake your head and say, you know what, I think you're lying. They argue - you are persecuting me!

  I'm still struggling to understand this concept of "false self" as you (your version is ringing true for me I think) are presenting it. If you love gardening and the BPD says "I love it too!" (like in your example) and you really do enjoy gardening... .how is enjoying gardening a false self? Is it because it's something you do? like an action? and not something you are?

Good (eerie) example as my BPD actually claimed to be an "expert" gardener and did turn everything dead and brown. I, however, never called her on it as in your example... .I just remained puzzled and was wondering why she had such a run of bad luck for three years. It was only later after the end of the relationship that I realized the truth. How sad that she put all of that effort into something in order to keep a pretense based on one thing she said to me during an early encounter. Do you think that they really believe that they love gardening when they say it in mirroring?

[RedRightHand]

Redrighthand,

I understand where you are coming from, I just don't like to think that it is like this for all BPDs. Yes they do evil and abusive things, but to think that they are purposefully doing things that are cruel makes them out to be sadists or sociopaths. I don't think they all are.

I don't know if it's like that for all, but it is like that for many. Many are sadists (and masochists)... .I believe it is a dominance/submission type of thing that helps them (they think) ,maybe momentarily, escape their inner turmoil.

BPDs Sociopaths? Read this and tell me what you think: www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

[cmk]

Wow! That was a shocking article. It really does describe many BPDs. You may have a point there, Redrighthand!

[2010]

Borderlines are not anti-social. Unlike the sociopath, Borderlines have a tremendous desire to be accepted by society- but have not been given the opportunity to expand and widen their horizons. The sociopath has.

The anti-social personality  (Aspd) sociopath has been given the opportunity to expand his horizons- but he uses that opportunity to screw up and then elicit pity from others- and he uses others as disposable commodities when they come to the rescue. He knows he is doing wrong and understands that he may get into trouble- which has him jumping ahead with a story for *why he deserves the pity* and is unaccountable for when he gets caught.

Sociopaths charm.  Only people with a pleasurable ego are interested in charming ... .putting forth a fantastic image... .marking themselves as great. The "charmee" is then always put in a lower position in status. Charm is essentially a lie. And it's usually used to pull a fast one.

The Borderline isn't as self-assured.  Borderlines do not charm- they MIRROR. Because of this, they are often confused when mirroring is not enough- and the partner demands the real self to emerge. As the partner gets pulled into a persecutory role, the Borderline frantically back pedals and projects persecution to get out of the snafu. It is at that time that they show to you how they were treated as children, with victimization, persecution and rescuing behavior all on a transference triangle and projected outward as if to hurt and maim.

If they mirror the right people, the counter-transference can be life affirming as a bondage persecution- but it's not done in order to get away with bad behavior like the Sociopath- it's done to prove themselves correct about their earliest bondage.

The partner of the Borderline often misunderstands and casts the Borderline in an anti-social role- as this is the easiest and simplest solution to split a person from good to bad. In the mind of the partner, the Borderline is just evil- and has done horrible things on purpose- because deep down, they are bad people- flawed and evil. When we judge Borderline behavior based on our own concept of good- we eliminate the good- and this defense mechanism allows us to remain safe and make the decision of guilt on another party.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R7AzMf8fiY

Ed Begley in 12 Angry Men.

[cmk]

topic: Borderlines = Sociopaths?

There is a link on the undecided board on sociopaths and BPDs.

[David Dare]

The partner of the Borderline often misunderstands and casts the Borderline in an anti-social role- as this is the easiest and simplest solution to split a person from good to bad. In the mind of the partner, the Borderline is just evil- and has done horrible things on purpose- because deep down, they are bad people- flawed and evil. When we judge Borderline behavior based on our own concept of good- we eliminate the good- and this defense mechanism allows us to remain safe and make the decision of guilt on another party.

This is true.  It took me a while to stop playing the blame game and get to the core of the matter: myself.  It's much easier to do in retrospect after enough time of seperation has passed.  

This thread has had me thinking for a few days now, trying to pinpoint what the false self is and how it factored into the r/s.  The mirroring that took place during idealization was extremely validating for me.  I couldn't get enough.  When idealization began to wane and mirroring was less prevalent, I found myself stuck psychologically and emotionally.  I wasn't thinking or acting properly, and at this point most of who I was, or who I thought I was, was put on the back burner as I tried to figure out what was happening and why I was being treated like an enemy.  She tested my core values, and even though I thought I was passing with flying colors, all I got were F's from my ex.

A few weeks ago, when I found myself slipping back into the BPD partner mindset, and that it was seperate from my regular every day "normal" mindest, I realized that it was basically a part of me still seeking her validation.  However, if validation is what I was seeking, and validation only came during mirroring, then it was the mirroring version of my ex I was longing for.   If that's the case, then I am really still longing for the illusion she protrayed and I constructed in my own head.

I concluded that since what this part of me still craved is false, then that aspect of who I am must also be false.  It was constructed under false pretenses and is therefore false.  I am beginning to wonder if this concept might not also be... .um... .false!

I am starting to think that my false self is the image of myself that I portray to myself in my own mind, a self-image I constructed many years ago at time I can't pinpoint.  Here is an example:

When I was in high school I was a long-haired rebel.  One day, I cut my hair short and started dressing properly.  Everyone was amazed at the new me!  Chicks who normally wouldn't give me a glance came out of the woodwork to not only compliment me but practically throw their panties at me.

Normally, one might think this type of attention is a good thing, but not I.  I was highly offended.  Who I was never changed, only my appearence.  Something inside of me became injured, and I made a personal vow to never play the clean-cut role again.  If people wanted to know the real me, they would have to penetrate the rebel facade and prove to me their lack of superficiality.

Wouldn't you know that my ex found me in such a state of mind.  This vow of mine had been buried over the years, but it was still there, and my hair was the longest it had ever been.  I was still holding true to the mantra that the real me was held in reserve for someone who could see past the rebel personna.

Whatever protective mental mechanism I had established in high school had been successfully breeched by my ex.  She passed with flying colors.  My defense was not only down, but I was so very glad to not be suffocated by it's presence.  The only problem is I was revealing myself to someone who was merely mirroring back to me my own joy and sense of freedom... .from myself!

I think I am now beginning to understand what the false self is and how it is created.  I just never really looked at it as false.  Or even true.  I just thought I was doing my best to create a version of me that was acceptable to me, but, indeed, it was all superficial.

[2010]

The Borderline/Narcissist attraction axis was quite real, and quite troubling in the way that all illogical BPD behavior and characteristics are.

Narcissists = are people who are "respect driven". (Respect is attention given to people of a higher status, or value in a society. Respect is antithetical to love by the very nature of it being unequal.)

Narcissists *do what they must* to get the attention to prove to themselves and to others that they exist and are worthy of “being.” Narcissists need attention from others (groups/partners/friends) *or* they have no use for them.

Narcissists have relationships with people who are typically just like them (other narcissists in collusion, who mirror back their false greatness) -OR- they rely on people who are uncomfortable being themselves (Small, painful egos) and who must reflect (mirror) back to the Narcissist in order to provide some sense of well *being* not only to the Narcissist- but also to themselves. i.e., Borderlines.

The Narcissist is a person who hides a painful self with a pleasurable ego. The Narcissist seeks to hide the pain of the real self behind a pretense of pleasure- and the quest for pleasure. It is an act of doing that creates being. It is also an act of doing that uses others as objects along the way.

Narcissists are Lone wolves. They do not attach to others for fear of annihilation. They have a fear of being subsumed and diluted, and therefore, afraid they do not exist.  They use people superficially to prove their worth.

Being “awesome and special are ways for the Narcissist to fend off that insecurity and cover up their real selves. Since pathological envy is at the root of Malignant Narcissism, Narcissists are always seeking out the next best thing to serve the FALSE self that hides the insecurity and pain.

And the “seeking” of the next best thing is -what *initially* attracts the Borderline to the Narcissist. The Borderline, -who has not developed their own pleasurable ego and not developed their own false self to please themselves- has only developed a false self that pleases and mirrors others- absolutely loves the fact that the narcissist has done the research on what’s next.

And to a Narcissist, this is a dream come true.  Attacking their image is akin to attacking anyone else with a knife. The narcissist will seek people with "dull knives". People with a painful ego have the dullest knives... .if they are trying to project an image. (Care about what people think about them)

Since self is what is used to help a person survive, the Borderline cannot survive alone, they must have a host. If they partner with someone who is a Narcissist, then they will be given a "life support system". In the "upside down" world of the Borderline, the narcissist is who they are.

Until it becomes the Narcissist's perception of the Borderline's attack on the Narcissist's false self- after the Borderline partner attempts to peel off the Narcissists "false self" mask and make it theirs. The Narcissists painful self is exposed, and the Borderline partner must be executed and then left to die on the side of the road.

But what happens when a Borderline mistakenly thinks of their partner as a Narcissist? And that partner isn’t a Narcissist and subsequently, doesn’t devalue and discard them?

The Borderline is a person who has a painful self and a painful ego. He seeks to hide this pain behind someone else’s pretense of pleasure.

Borderlines want so hard to see their own face that they demand we create one for them.

People who are "understanding driven" get drawn into this dilemma. These people are the opposite of the Narcissist- who is respect driven and who does not allow the personal sacrifice needed to help the borderline solve the mystery of “who they are.”

Knowledge seekers, passionate, compassionate, creative and highly questioning of life, these understanding people do not feel comfortable in large groups but are social on an individual basis and have closest friendships with people of the opposite gender (or people on a one to one basis)

The understanding partner then "imagines" what the other person (i.e., the Borderline) wants, and tries to uncover what they think the Borderline is hiding or missing. The understanding driven personality *understands* the need to be held, loved, understood and wants to share intimacy- but feels that with the Borderline= all they need is to guide, teach and show the way.

The false self that the Borderline mirrors, gets in the way and the partner tries to remove it. They try to find the chinks in the Borderline armor and peel them apart. The mystery becomes increasingly uncomfortable as the mystery unravels that the person they loved was themselves- what’s left is now the mystery that they must uncover- as to who really is the Borderline? We have no idea that the mystery exists because the Borderline is empty. They have no real self and have borrowed ours. We have been mirrored. There is nothing underneath.

Our partner starts to hurt us when we seek to remove the false self that they have mirrored. They use abuse to pull us under control. Our painful ego is easy to "pinch" because we fear abandonment.  We stop questioning them (trying to remove the armor) and turn the focus to questioning ourselves. What did we do to deserve this? During this time, they either pull us back under their control with blame and projection or seek another "understanding driven" person or a Narcissist to "host" them.  

[2010]

The false self is what we think makes us distinctive, different and therefore special.

Think of this as a value added. It makes you different but it doesn’t make you better than anyone else. Look ma, the boy can drive a car, pilot a plane, play the piano, save lives- grow a garden- but all of these things are only a value added to the real self. That very real self that is no different from anyone else. The Human being.

What's important here - isn't that you think you are better than anyone else- it's what you choose to send out to the World to define you- and it's what is picked up on and then mirrored back to you by the Borderline - to get your approval.

In the conclusion of the relationship- you will be presented (in hindsight) with what was mirrored- and then realize that this was important enough to be recognized by a person who survived their childhood by finding the (parent's) Achilles heel and using their knowledge to manipulate (the parent) to give them what they needed for survival.

Consequently, your understanding of them should be that they grew up to be masters of manipulation, keenly trained at evoking a response from others by mirroring their selves. And that means that they will never see you as a friend or an ally that can be trusted because they cannot detach and form their own self to do so- apart from you- they can only re-create the bond of someone else's self as a re-living of their past inability to form their own self from their parent.

It is different from Aspd as it is a repetition compulsion to acknowledge the deprived self and prove the impossibility of a successful real self.

[RedRightHand]

But what happens when a Borderline mistakenly thinks of their partner as a Narcissist? And that partner isn’t a Narcissist and subsequently, doesn’t devalue and discard them?

The Borderline is a person who has a painful self and a painful ego. She seeks to hide this pain behind someone else’s pretense of pleasure.

Borderlines want so hard to see their own face that they demand we create one for them.

People who are "understanding driven" get drawn into this dilemma. These people are the opposite of the Narcissist- who is respect driven and who does not allow the personal sacrifice needed to help the borderline solve the mystery of “who they are.”

Knowledge seekers, passionate, compassionate, creative and highly questioning of life, these understanding people do not feel comfortable in large groups but are social on an individual basis and have closest friendships with people of the opposite gender (or people on a one to one basis)

The understanding partner then "imagines" what the other person (i.e., the Borderline) wants, and tries to uncover what they think the Borderline is hiding or missing. The understanding driven personality *understands* the need to be held, loved, understood and wants to share intimacy- but feels that with the Borderline= all they need is to guide, teach and show the way.

The false self that the Borderline mirrors, gets in the way and the partner tries to remove it. They try to find the chinks in the Borderline armor and peel them apart. The mystery becomes increasingly uncomfortable as the mystery unravels that the person they loved was themselves- what’s left is now the mystery that they must uncover- as to who really is the Borderline? We have no idea that the mystery exists because the Borderline is empty. They have no real self and have borrowed ours. We have been mirrored. There is nothing underneath.

Our partner starts to hurt us when we seek to remove the false self that they have mirrored. They use abuse to pull us under control. Our painful ego is easy to "pinch" because we fear abandonment.  We stop questioning them (trying to remove the armor) and turn the focus to questioning ourselves. What did we do to deserve this? During this time, they either pull us back under their control with blame and projection or seek another "understanding driven" person or a Narcissist to "host" them.  

THANK YOU for this! I think this is the first accurate portrayal of what I got myself into that I've ever read in helping me to understand it. I am the understanding driven partner. I've never heard of this described like this before. I want to learn more. Where is this from? How can I learn more about the understanding driven person and how it applies to relationship dynamics with BPDs. Now the false self makes sense to me and how it played into this scenario. Please please please tell me how I can learn more about this. Thank you.

[seeking balance]

This describes my last year perfectly.  wow!

[Our partner starts to hurt us when we seek to remove the false self that they have mirrored. They use abuse to pull us under control. Our painful ego is easy to "pinch" because we fear abandonment.  We stop questioning them (trying to remove the armor) and turn the focus to questioning ourselves. What did we do to deserve this? During this time, they either pull us back under their control with blame and projection or seek another "understanding driven" person or a Narcissist to "host" them.]

[gentleman66]

Well that clarifies some things for me. Thanks 2010. Your insights are on target.

And Borderline personality has NOTHING in common with sexual abuse except for coincidence. To state that sexual abuse is a prerequisite for BPD is undermining the many people with BPD who never had a parent touch them inappropriately. This is about *not* being able to form a SELF outside of another person's SELF. The only self they've ever had was a mirror of others.