Do they know what they are doing to us?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I am new here and I have been reading alot of the posts. I see where its thought by some that a person with BPD is the evilist of evil. A liar,cheat and a scammer, as if the person with BPD is completely aware of theyre actions and the effect of them on others. So I am confused. are BPD's just bad people that enjoy hurting others or are they sick with a mental illness and unaware of actions and the effects of them?

I also have a question about the BPD living in a fantasy world. My ex BPD would spend hours talking about things we would do and things he wanted to do, hundreds of ideas. Never accomplishing a single one of them, even going for a drive in the country was dismissed as though he never said it. it was like his mind was on idea overload. I am pretty sharp and couldnt keep up with all the thoughts he would conjur up. Then he would act like he never said them and come up with new ones.

He would also change his mind minute to minute. Hed say lets do laundry 5 minutes later it was no lets do whatever. I just couldnt keep up with all the changes. One weekend he said lets go on a trip  to atlantic city, so I make travel arraigments and I pack and am ready to go and he says no no we arent going . That was the last time I trusted any idea of his. Anyone have any insight into this?

[brenbabe]

I am new here and I have been reading alot of the posts. I see where its thought by some that a person with BPD is the evilist of evil. A liar,cheat and a scammer, as if the person with BPD is completely aware of theyre actions and the effect of them on others. So I am confused. are BPD's just bad people that enjoy hurting others or are they sick with a mental illness and unaware of actions and the effects of them?

I also have a question about the BPD living in a fantasy world. My ex BPD would spend hours talking about things we would do and things he wanted to do, hundreds of ideas. Never accomplishing a single one of them, even going for a drive in the country was dismissed as though he never said it. it was like his mind was on idea overload. I am pretty sharp and couldnt keep up with all the thoughts he would conjur up. Then he would act like he never said them and come up with new ones.

He would also change his mind minute to minute. Hed say lets do laundry 5 minutes later it was no lets do whatever. I just couldnt keep up with all the changes. One weekend he said lets go on a trip  to atlantic city, so I make travel arraigments and I pack and am ready to go and he says no no we arent going . That was the last time I trusted any idea of his. Anyone have any insight into this?

[ve01603]

I am new here and I have been reading alot of the posts. I see where its thought by some that a person with BPD is the evilist of evil. A liar,cheat and a scammer, as if the person with BPD is completely aware of theyre actions and the effect of them on others. So I am confused. are BPD's just bad people that enjoy hurting others or are they sick with a mental illness and unaware of actions and the effects of them?

I also have a question about the BPD living in a fantasy world. My ex BPD would spend hours talking about things we would do and things he wanted to do, hundreds of ideas. Never accomplishing a single one of them, even going for a drive in the country was dismissed as though he never said it. it was like his mind was on idea overload. I am pretty sharp and couldnt keep up with all the thoughts he would conjur up. Then he would act like he never said them and come up with new ones.

He would also change his mind minute to minute. Hed say lets do laundry 5 minutes later it was no lets do whatever. I just couldnt keep up with all the changes. One weekend he said lets go on a trip  to atlantic city, so I make travel arraigments and I pack and am ready to go and he says no no we arent going . That was the last time I trusted any idea of his. Anyone have any insight into this?

Mine did exactly the same stuff.  It was totally weird.

Also, I am pretty good at reading people and in response to your first question, I think that he knew that he was hurting me and he knew how much I loved him and I think that when he knew that he was hurting me and pushing my buttons, he actually got off on it.

[David Dare]

I'm in the same boat as y'all.  I think once their use for us has dried up and we are painted black they begin to enjoy the sadism.  Not all pwBPD are the same, but I experienced that, for sure.  I think it's more towards the narcissistic end of the Cluster B spectrum.

[brenbabe]

I am starting to wonder which one is my real ex, the raging one or the tender gentle loving one. he was both. but I saw the loving side get flat, like numb or blah progressively diminish over time. The rage would be intense, nothing flat there.

[Josefina]

it seems like you are talking about my ex. But, crazy enough that attracted me for a while until it became very abusive verbally when her Jekil persona will come out

[Mariposa]

My current BPD partner is the same! Always lets do this, but we end up doing that! I never know if he means what he says with regarding plans! I'm starting to learn, that when he suggests something, to take it with a pinch of salt... .we may, or may not be going to the club he's said we are going to this weekend etc... .it's crazy!

[Indigo Sky]

So I am confused. are BPD's just bad people that enjoy hurting others or are they sick with a mental illness and unaware of actions and the effects of them?

I believe they are aware of what they do and understand it is wrong, but also believe they have an impaired conscience,they dont have the same empathy capability as others and they are in such inner pain, that they are really super focused on their needs.

even going for a drive in the country was dismissed as though he never said it. it was like his mind was on idea overload.

They do have problems with memory and also they have a tendency to re-write history.

He would also change his mind minute to minute.

I believe their emotions are super amplified, in a lot of inner pain and spend a lot of their resources trying to keep from dealing with their issues. It is not uncommon for them to have changing plans, their feelings drive their plans and their feelings (emotions) are in a constant state of change.

Yes, mine took a great deal of pleasure hurting me... .why? Because some BPD also are paranoid, lack the ability to trust others, and feel the world is out to get them... .in her mind, I had done something that warranted pay back... .

They have a mental illness and are to be pitied, I feel deeply sorry for them, their families, their partners and all who deal with them. They are still responsible for their actions, but I am not convinced I would do any different than them if I suffered from this mental illness.

What helped me was looking at why they do the things they do rather than take it personally. Realizing that this is who they are, that they wouldnt act any different with their next partner... .and in turn looking at myself, making changes to make my life better... .

Wishing you the best... .

[lifeisgoodx10]

I also have a question about the BPD living in a fantasy world. My ex BPD would spend hours talking about things we would do and things he wanted to do, hundreds of ideas. Never accomplishing a single one of them, even going for a drive in the country was dismissed as though he never said it. it was like his mind was on idea overload. I am pretty sharp and couldnt keep up with all the thoughts he would conjur up. Then he would act like he never said them and come up with new ones.

He would also change his mind minute to minute. Hed say lets do laundry 5 minutes later it was no lets do whatever. I just couldnt keep up with all the changes. One weekend he said lets go on a trip  to atlantic city, so I make travel arraigments and I pack and am ready to go and he says no no we arent going . That was the last time I trusted any idea of his. Anyone have any insight into this?

Bren, I’d like insight into this myself. The same thing happened over and over with xhBPD. He’d bring up some idea for plans and invite me to do so and so, then when the time came…….nothing………like we never had the conversation to begin with. He invited me to lunch with him one day (on my day off). He worked an hour away from our home so it took a little planning to do this. I worked the night before, came home and immediatle showered and dressed. I called him as I was driving into the city where he worked and he acted surprised (not in a good way) as if he knew nothing of our plans. He even ended up pissed at me! So I went over 24 hours with no sleep that day for him and he ends up mad at me for “what”!

Like you, I finally stopped putting any weight into his suggestions or invitations.

;p

[ArtistGuy70]

I believe at this stage (the painting me black stage) she knows what she is doing. But, here's the catch. I will not let her know how I am doing with all of it. I am acting the same I always would on facebook, the model mayhem, etc. I ignore all of her antics and  just go on with my life. I think that drives her nuts to  be honest. They hate, hate hate being ignored.

[brenbabe]

Has anyone heard a BPD after recovery speak about how they felt when hurting us?  or if the BPD really felt love ? 

[Totoro13]

I think they feel like they can never can get enough love, affection, or attention.  There is a hole in them that people can't fill.  They need to do it for themselves  but they can't.  I feel they can't truely love others until they work on fixing themselves and feeling good about themselves.

I think they know they are hurting us, but feel that they hurt so much more then we do.  Their main focus is dealing with their pain and not our pain.  With mine I think he felt out of control in his life and what made him feel better is being able to control others.  The distortion and lies are a way to keep us off balance which makes him feel more in control.  It felt like he felt so bad about himself, looked at me and thought I was better then him so he needed to knock me down to his level or below in order to feel better.  A very bully mentality.

[ArtistGuy70]

Has anyone heard a BPD after recovery speak about how they felt when hurting us?  or if the BPD really felt love ? 

I did a photoshoot the other day with a girl who is admittedly BPD. She has been in therapy for two years. She told me "I still don't know what real love is. Probably never will."

[ve01603]

My current BPD partner is the same! Always lets do this, but we end up doing that! I never know if he means what he says with regarding plans! I'm starting to learn, that when he suggests something, to take it with a pinch of salt... .we may, or may not be going to the club he's said we are going to this weekend etc... .it's crazy!

Makes it hard to get anything done.  I know. Mine was the same.

[paul16]

They know. The better question is do they care?

I come here and read posts from people who are where I was a while back and wonder. How long will it take for them. I continually see where a "disorder" is used as an excuse for the malicious and near evil behavior of our exes. A good exercise, I think, is to replace the term disorder with f****d up. So a "personality disorder" becomes "someone with a f****d up personality."

I take caution anytime I hear someone in the mental health community use a diagnosis which includes the word disorder. There are hundreds of disorders listed in the DSM-IV. I have some traits from about 1/3 of them.

So do you... .

[TonyC]

my ex after all the therapies... , meds , teachings and support...

never accpepted that she had a problem...

it was everyone else... it was was who ever was in stiriking distance was gonna get something...

so in my case she would know some event took place... .and it was always them... or me...

and my ex was BPD with a mix of other stuff

and i could say to her ... you just cursed out a five y.o kid...

and she would say... he shouldnt have done that...

[The_411]

They know and they do care but they're feelings or emptiness/ pain etc are so great that they outweight their capacity to care.

[JWS]

I am starting to wonder which one is my real ex, the raging one or the tender gentle loving one. he was both. but I saw the loving side get flat, like numb or blah progressively diminish over time. The rage would be intense, nothing flat there.

All sides are the real one. They are delusional and in their mind they are perfectly normal and right so all sides were your BPDSO

[Blythe1976]

They know. The better question is do they care?

I totally agree. They know. Of course they know. But narcissism is such a strong component of BPD (and many BPDs are also NPD) that they simply don't care. That's where that whole "lack of empathy" comes in. They only feel their own pain. Their needs are more important than your. Their feelings are more important than yours. How many of you have ever heard this line after being raged at, degraded, humiliated, lied to, cheated on, gaslighted, etc:

"Oh, stop it with the crying and feeling sorry for yourself! You're just trying to make me feel guilty! You make such a big deal about nothing!"

[seeking balance]

I totally agree. They know. Of course they know. But narcissism is such a strong component of BPD (and many BPDs are also NPD) that they simply don't care. That's where that whole "lack of empathy" comes in. They only feel their own pain. Their needs are more important than your. Their feelings are more important than yours. How many of you have ever heard this line after being raged at, degraded, humiliated, lied to, cheated on, gaslighted, etc:

This is right on the money - they do know, but they are in so much pain that they will literally do anything to relieve that emotional pain.  They blame the emotional pain on thier SO, because they cannot look in the mirror - they have no real sense of self.

Has anyone heard a BPD after recovery speak about how they felt when hurting us?  or if the BPD really felt love ? 

The best recovering person that I heard speak was Tami Green on youtube.  She is the exception, not the rule regarding recovery.

[Indigo Sky]

Do they know what they are doing to us?

Forgot to add, mine knew exactly what she was doing to me, also when you think that she has other partners, more than likely she was getting better at what she was doing.

She knew she was holding back terms of endearment.SHe knew how to make me happy and withheld.

She told me that she needed me to feel nervous and on edge (ie she was with other partners and needed me to suspect).

They have self destructive coping methods that just keep repeating.

My ex needed excitement and turmoil, she received this when she was starting a new relationship, destroying the relationship and then destroying her life so she could again be the waif, the damsel in destress waiting to be saved, the cyle just keeps repeating itself. She cant live happily ever after.

To me, they are doing these really bad things to their partners to fill their needs, that is the primary reason for their actions.

Has anyone heard a BPD after recovery speak about how they felt when hurting us?  or if the BPD really felt love ? 

Copied this from this site, it is from a member here, hope it is helpful,

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves

Love when you have Borderline Personality Disorder... .

Some partners of people with BPD worry the relationship was just a game, that their SO was using them and felt nothing for them. That’s not true.

I am a recovering BP.

Before, when I was in a relationship, my feelings felt genuine. I didn’t have a conscious ulterior motive. There was an authentic connection; and while it may have been unhealthy and for the wrong reasons, it was, in my mind, real.

I acted as if I was in love because I thought I was.

The bond that occurred in the beginning of a relationship was incredible: there was a deep (false) sense of knowing the other person intimately, intuitively. He became my whole world and it was wonderful, rapturous. When my boyfriends left – and they invariably left – that world was anhiliated; everything fell to ashes.

The break-up that led to my hard-won recovery from BPD left me literally slumped on the floor, crushed in spirit, feeling as if there was no meaning in my life.

I was close to killing myself - too defeated and broken to even move. The saddest thing about the situation was that I was the cause of my pain, yet had little idea then that it was due to my own behavior.

So yes, the love is “real”, but only in the sense of how it feels to the person with BPD: the feelings seem real, they feel like love.

But it’s not love because it’s based on need rather than on true caring and intimacy, which is the real love we all deserve.

~Oceanheart (anonymous bpdfamily.com member)

[Lizzie]

I agree with pretty much everything written here and the various reasons why.

I think they are aware of what they are doing.  I don't want to generalize all pwBPD.  Based on the 2 I had experience with and reading boards for pwBPD they seem very aware of it imo. 

With the guy I dated, I did something unethical once I started getting a strong suspicion he was BPD and I got scared so I read his journaling.  I know it's completely wrong.  He was aware of a lot of things.  Maybe not in the moment he was doing some of it, but he wasn't in the dark.  The thing was that he seemed to have no insight into why he behaved the way he did and his writing was full of justifications for himself.  Amazing really the insight I got from that.  From day one he claimed he wasn't a jealous person, but in his journals it was all jealousy with past girlfriends.  It gave me the strength to get away when I read that stuff.  In particular, there were situations with 2, TWO!, ex girlfriends where he was upset that they had gone out with friends one night when he didn't want them to, the girls came home drunk and he abused them sexually when they came home and had passed out drunk.  Sick.  How could someone who could do that twice to their unconscious girlfriend ever be trusted.  His self excuses were that he was under the influence.  Whatever, lots of people that are under the influence themselves don't rape their passed out girlfriends.

[Totoro13]

Lizzie,

the pattern of being aware of the problem but instead of trying to change just repeating a bad decision over and over and over again each time a similar situation happened was what I saw in my ex.

There was no change over time and lots of justifications.

That must of been horrible to read. x

[It_seemed_fine]

They are fully aware of what they do (or did) to us.  Cheating on me, Jerry Springer Style, her response was "but I did it for me, I didn't do it against you."  After months of therapy on that, she admitted that she knew it would hurt me if I found out (which I did, lock, stock and barrel) but said that she was more concerned about her own needs, and they were more important to her than whether I was hurt or not. 

That's just one example.  They know.  They play stupid when it suits their purpose.

[brenbabe]

Ok, so if they know what they are doing , why is it called a disorder? Sounds to me like this is just crappy mean selfish and even dangerous behavior coming from an emotionally immature person.

[cmk]

I believe they know what they are doing but are helpless to a certain extent, to stopping themselves. I would tell my ex he was cruel and that I felt helpless but he didn't stop. One thing about this disorder is I think many are extremely impulsive and don't have normal social skills.


I think you and I may be around someone annoying and we could "bite our tongues". They don't really seem to have that filter.

[OverBoard]

  It felt like he felt so bad about himself, looked at me and thought I was better then him so he needed to knock me down to his level or below in order to feel better.  A very bully mentality.[/quote]
Mine actually "said" this is what she was doing to me.

[brenbabe]

Thats exactly what they are "  child bullies in an adult body"  a bully is a coward. They wimper and run when they get a taste of theyre own medicine.

[seeking balance]

Ok, so if they know what they are doing , why is it called a disorder? Sounds to me like this is just crappy mean selfish and even dangerous behavior coming from an emotionally immature person.

This is where we need 2010 to jump in for the why it is a disorder.   

My 2 cents: I think we make the mistake that they think like us.  We can be rational about their behaviour, and they might know of their actions, but they do not feel it in the same way we do.   There is also descent data regarding the brain in pwBPD functioning differently regarding emotions.  Even those that get treatment go through a HUGE amount of work to really "get" what it means that tehy are emotionally disordered.  Nobody wants to be told they are different, let alone with something as fragile as our personalities. 

Now, does this mean we should take their abuse - no.

But it is a disorder, it is not as simple as just "deciding" to be better.   When you read about DBT treatment and Marsha Linihan developing it,  you do realize that it is a disorder and not just bad behaviour.

[lets]

IMO they do know- remember projection...

mine called me a bully, selfish, cheap, promise breaker, liar etc etc- which of course were all him. 

He knew it was him, couldn't face the pain, split and projected on me- so yes they know- but quickly project, blame and forget.

[NonBPDLookingForAnswers]

I think they feel like they can never can get enough love, affection, or attention.  There is a hole in them that people can't fill.   They need to do it for themselves  but they can't.  I feel they can't truely love others until they work on fixing themselves and feeling good about themselves.

I think they know they are hurting us, but feel that they hurt so much more then we do.  Their main focus is dealing with their pain and not our pain.  With mine I think he felt out of control in his life and what made him feel better is being able to control others.   The distortion and lies are a way to keep us off balance which makes him feel more in control.  It felt like he felt so bad about himself, looked at me and thought I was better then him so he needed to knock me down to his level or below in order to feel better.   A very bully mentality.

Totoro, you hit the nail on the head... .