We're meeting up Thursday

[Valentine09]

It's been a year of mainly No Contact.  My exgf has been in therapy since June and wants to see me again and answer my questions without any pressure for anything more.  She wants to prove to me she can be trusted.  She finally left her live-in nanny job and is now a manager at a major department store, so she's not trying to hit me up for money.  I'm doubting whether she really has BPD or just has PTSD, anxiety, OCD.   From what I witnessed in the past she exhibited most of the criteria for BPD.   

The things that have me doubting are that she never really raged at me, when we were getting close it wasn't as intense as most people report it on here.  I never really got the "honeymoon" phase.    But I'm also not sure if I'm getting suckered again. I'm not sure that I'm not just entering the honeymoon phase now. I was devalued, and she admits to that and isn't shifting any blame to anyone.

I'm not getting back into a relationship with her right now, and even if it goes that way I'm dating her for a loong time before ever thinking about marriage again.  She admits to being emotionally abusive and taking me for granted.  She told me she pushed me away because my love scared her and she didn't think she deserved to be loved.  She told me she pulled me in because she felt badly that I wanted a relationship and she wasn't ready for one at the time.  I'm not sure what to think.  She said she wasn't ready for a relationship, yet she was trying to find one with multiple guys before.  She says she's eliminated them all from her life and realized I was the only one who loved her for more than her body and realizes what real love is now.  She's taking responsibility and not shifting it on God or her abusive childhood like she was doing before.  She now admits that what she did was cheating and said she was too ashamed of herself to admit that before.

I still love her, even after everything.  She seems to have problems with her memory though.  I told her I thought she has disassociation issues.  She claims she just has bad memory.  Some things that I bring up to her she claims she doesn't remember having happened, but doesn't deny that they may have.  I think that could be a major problem.  2 months ago she said I could talk to her therapist, but now she claims her therapist refuses to talk to me because it's not her policy to talk to outsiders.  She claims to keep asking her therapist and she won't budge.  She could be telling the truth, but  I feel I should be able to ask the therapist a few questions, or at least be able to request an e-mail saying that goes against her confidentiality policy.  Maybe I should demand an in-person meeting with the therapist before getting back into a relationship though.  My exgf told me she'd show me the receipts for her therapist and her psychiatrist.  But that doesn't prove that she's been telling her T what I want to discuss with her.  I don't know.  I feel like she's still trying to control the situation.     

I'm going to demand to look at her phone and read her texts  Thursday to make sure she hasn't been talking to some other guy this whole time.  If that's the case I'm walking out right then and there and not looking back.

[lostoc]

It's a trap.

Good luck.

[Valentine09]

It's a trap.

Good luck.

Hmmm, maybe I posted on the wrong board.  Care to elaborate? 

[phuzion]

I would be wary.  She may have said you could talk to her therapist before she actually asked her therapist if it would be okay.  Could be one explanation.  I just don't know if six months is enough, though.  I have been under the impression that it takes years.  As for her having BPD... .maybe, maybe not but the things you described are familiar to me, as well, and my ex was diagnosed BPD.  Also, you wanting to look at her phone is a sure sign that there is not enough trust to have a healthy relationship, perhaps you are not ready - and that is what you should be most concerned with, your state of mind and readiness, despite her claims of being ready.  How do you feel?  Thursday is close.  I would bounce this off friends or family who know the whole situation and get their opinion, too.

Lostoc... .that was an Admiral Ackbar line... ."It's a trap!" - whenever I hear someone say that, I think of Return of the Jedi and him saying that.

[Kenai 91]

It's a trap.

Good luck.

I think that he is say that the trap is  "I've changed".

I for one don't think people can change that quickly either.

Of course she will be sweet and "changed".   

On the other hand - if she doesn't think she's changed, then she would probably just try "fresh" with someone else.

If you are going to do this I'll ask you a question.   How miserable were you during the bad times?   Can you imagine being there again?   But now with a mortgage, two kids, ... .

Finally, if you are going to do this, I would test and retest the waters.   Not sure what I mean by that but you checking her cell phone is heading in the right direction.   go further though.   You are going to need to see her call history on her on-line web page.   She can delete her call history on her phone.

What are her spending habits?   How do she spend her time now?   How is she with her family these days?    What do they say?

Sounds like a lot of work... .

[Valentine09]

I just sent her an e-mail telling her that I'm setting a boundary that I want her therapist to e-mail me telling me that it's against her policy to talk to me before there is to be any meeting.  I just want to know that she's not making this person up.  You're right, I don't have enough trust to be in a relationship.  Meeting with her would be taking a step to building back trust.  If I look at her phone and see that there is no one on there that she's been talking to, I'll gain more trust.   I wanted to talk directly to her T to ask her questions about BPD, abandonment issues, disassociation, etc, just to get a professional opinion of whether they've discussed such things. Now that I've been denied access to that, I don't feel as good about meeting up.

Yeah, her spending habits seemed out of control when I was dating her before.  She claims it's under control and that she doesn't have a money problem.  Yet, she gets therapy heavily discounted through some kind of social services.  She claims she doesn't have anything to hide, that she'll show me her bank accounts, credit card statements, give me her e-mail passwords.  Yeah, it is probably too much work, and it's already stressing me out. 

[TonyC]

you dont need to have a face to face... .

this conversation could be had on the phone... .

look at one thing... .

you are trying to trust her... yet you are doing all the work...

shes suppossed to make all the plans... ., shes supposed to tell you how sorry she was, for this and that...

i say. you ask her ... what makes to day different... than yesterday...

what have you been diagnosed with and what is your treatment...

whats dbt?

ask her what make her deserve you

[Valentine09]

She claims that today is different than yesterday because she's been working through how her brother raped her as child with her therapist and how her actions up to this point in her life have gotten her pretty much nowhere.  It sounds like she's honestly trying in that regard, where a year ago she was flat out denying that the sexual abuse had any affect on her life and that what she was doing to me was wrong.  She says her therapist has diagnosed her with PTSD, anxiety, depression, and OCD.  She went to therapy on her own accord and has stayed in it.  But yes, I do feel like I am doing a lot of work just to get to a level of trust.  She claims she can't properly express herself over e-mail, which in some respects is legitimate.  I often will write an e-mail and forget to say something, or wish I hadn't said something else.  So that's the reason for the meetup, so she can say her peace.  I told her I thought she was trying to seduce me back into a relationship and she told me that offended her and was far from the the truth.  It wasn't unjustified, she's done that with other guys.  But she says she's done with her old life and realizes it leads nowhere and that this change is for good.   Could it be that she's just very troubled, has some BPD traits, and isn't necessarily a full-fledged BP?  She's self-aware enough to realize what she's doing is wrong, she outright admits it and apologized. Even the stuff she doesn't remember she admits as being cruel.  That would be my main concern, that she'll do stuff and then forget about it.  So I'd have to monitor her again and see if she acts up.   But yeah, I'm just trying to be content being single for now, and not get into a relationship for a while.

Oh, and she hasn't said she deserves me but did say we both deserve to be happy.  As for the why? I don't think she believes she deserves me per se, just that she's ready for a healthy relationship.  She just thinks that we had a really good connection as friends and that when I tried to take it to the next level she couldn't handle it.  And by the friend connection she means I didn't try to force myself on her sexually.  I'm not that kind of guy and she respects that part of me, and admits she took advantage of my kindness.  So she believes she can handle a real relationship now.  She keeps referring to how she's a good-hearted person and thinks of herself as such and that her behavior in the past wasn't the real her and she wants a chance for me to experience the real her.  I just think there needs to be a 3rd party to talk to about this, and if her T is unwilling to mediate  I don't know how that would be accomplished. 

[TonyC]

BPD or not... .lets say shes a woman with unacceptable behaviors...

a woman who has hurt you severly

But yeah, I'm just trying to be content being single for now, and not get into a relationship for a while.

once bitten twice shy right... you know her... .my ex and i got together after a nine month hiatus... she popped up? pledged her undying love for me... and how shes takin the meds... seen the worngs in her ways... .and she shouldnt have dissapeard  blah blah blah...

ive seen the light...

she said im ready to come home ive mended my ways.

i said... youve handed my ass to me so many times... .how do i trust you?

then she dictated her terms... a list... i replied you leaving me... put me back out there... and i like bein out there... so if you want to date... and see what happens im okay with that... .

but we are not a couple we are dating... i will have my life you will have yours... and maybe someday we will meet in the middle... .

she went bathit_ and cursed me out... .the rest you can figure out...

im not sayin your ex is like this... but maybe something for you to think about...

guard yourself, protect yourself... .and be vigilent...

you cant trust her motives, words... .untill you decide to , see if shes up to the task...

[Valentine09]

Hmmm, I have been trying to go out with other women.  Maybe I should let her know and see if she explodes. 

She flipped the tables on me today and said I was hurting her for insinuating that her trying to come back to me was to trap me into a marriage.  I wouldn't have told her that had she not mentioned thinking about doing that with another guy, albeit a year and a half ago.  Her excuse?  That was the past, this is now, I've changed and want to show you I've changed with my actions.  She wanted to discuss a "game plan" for how we communicate and treat each other.  Sounded legit, but if she has memory problems, seems like she'd be prone to forget and slip up.  I just don't know if she turns into a different person after marriage or not. 

I just want to pick her brain as to what she was thinking when she left me last.  She just said she wasn't ready to give up her selfish behaviors and the negative attention she got from other men.  And I want to know her therapist knows about this stuff at the very least, but that seems impossible now.  If I can't have access to her T I don't think I should proceed.  It's tricky because her therapy is subsidized mainly through the government, so they might have different rules than if she was paying for the therapy herself. 

The only thing I can really trust right now is that she said she's not ready for marriage or kids and doesn't want to pressure me for a relationship unless I want to have one. 

[Im.okay.now]

Hi Valentine

After all the progress you've made I hope this does not go KABOOM in your face. I don't have to tell you this but the track record for these kind of meetings usually send the non suspecting non-BPD person scurrying and writhing in more pain than round 1.

I wish you well and hope that your situation will be an exception

I remember the pain you were in in round 1

ION

[eman01]

Here's a thought. Tell her to contact you in 2 weeks if she still feels the same way about you. In the meantime go NC for those 2 weeks. You should be worth waiting for. If she's baiting others then she'll go for the first one who bites.

The more you engage with her by gauging your level of trust, the more she realizes you're on the hook and gains power over you. By the way you want to talk to her T and check her phone, etc. sounds like she's ahead in this game.

Make her do all the work. Actions not words.

[FreeToBe]

I have to agree with eman.  Great advice!

[Valentine09]

Here's a thought. Tell her to contact you in 2 weeks if she still feels the same way about you. In the meantime go NC for those 2 weeks. You should be worth waiting for. If she's baiting others then she'll go for the first one who bites.

The more you engage with her by gauging your level of trust, the more she realizes you're on the hook and gains power over you. By the way you want to talk to her T and check her phone, etc. sounds like she's ahead in this game.

Make her do all the work. Actions not words.

Yeah, since she's not letting me talk to her T when she originally said I could, and saying it's against policy it sounds very manipulative.  My therapist said if I let her back in that I should have a 3rd party there to mediate.  I ended it with her 2 months ago, and that was after ending it 6 months before that.  Haven't seen her since last November and she's been trying to get to me ever since.  Her level of interest in wanting to start up a relationship hasn't waned since about March, so she's been "interested" for over 7 months now.  I just got off the phone with my parents and they said I should probably stay away and it sounds like nothing has changed, and she's ignoring all my boundaries as per usual.  I'm hoping she gets off work soon and  e-mails back .  I'll let y'all know what she says about her T e-mailing me.  

[mindful]

Remember people believe what they need and want to believe... .her story is a very tight fit--- seduction?  (as in playing on vulnerability).   It sounds like another version of To Good To Be True.  The reality is--- I would suspect someone coming out of being abusive etc. etc.  would have many doubts... .gaps in her self knowledge, and would need to stand wobbly on her own for a while before she could navigate a relationship.

When someone goes NC from BPD--- I think it is like blood clotting on a wound.  Over time the wound heals and looks like most other skin--- but there is weakness and change, and a propensity to break down again under the right pressure or conditions.   There is this veil over our wounds if we have some time out from it-  but unexpected forces are at play.   Do you want her to make you feel good?  What is the process she has learned to deal with the intense fear and anger she feels?  Has she changed her relationship to her suffering?  Or are you the fix again?  So much of this is about taking responsibility for our suffering.  Have her talk about how she deals with suffering--- has she learned to stay with sadness, or is she running from it? 

Good Luck.   

[2010]

I want her therapist to e-mail me telling me that it's against her policy to talk to me before there is to be any meeting.

Any therapist who emails you with information about another person's therapy is in violation of HIPPA.  That law is there is protect third parties from infringing on the privacy of individual therapy.  Whatever is said in confidence to a therapist needs to be protected and that law was created for it.  Individual therapy is between two people, not three.  That means, you and I both get to talk to someone in confidence without another person triangulating (read definition) and butting into the therapy.  Unfortunately, the law is there because it needs to be due to "helicopter and " parents, spouses and even girlfriends and boyfriends.

Bottom line, if your girlfriend needs to prove to you that she has changed before you give her a second, third, fourth, fifth or sixth chance- and the proof comes out of the mouth of a therapist rather than due to her actions- then you really are setting yourself up for misinterpretation. Therapists are there to help one person get some insight- not two.  This therapist does not have you for a client- they have your girlfriend. A therapist is not aware of what your relationship with your girlfriend is like except for this perfect example of insistence that you are included. Therapists call that enmeshment, especially when you call and demand to speak to them about your girlfriend's therapy. Not only are you appearing controlling but you are asking for validation and approval from the therapist. Stop giving your power of attorney over to someone who sees your girlfriend once or twice a week for one hour.

Keep your therapies separate. Do not enmesh yourself in and possibly derail her therapy.  Her therapist doesn't need to email or call you.

If you wish to have couples counseling together- then talk to your girlfriend about it and if she agrees, set it up and make an appointment.

Borderline personality disorder is about persecutory feelings.  It is about being unable to manage a life outside of others.  It is the failure to separate/ individuate. Because of this, Borderlines often choose people who control and seek control in their adult lives. Therapy should seek to break free of these thoughts of helplessness. The therapist acts as a stand-in for the original controlling object so the Borderline can re-work and ultimately overcome the idea that they are kept prisoners.

I don't see how you are doing anything but adding on to this idea with your insistence that the Therapist give you an up to date synopsis of your girlfriend's therapy. 

[Kenai 91]

Someone said earlier that  "You are doing all the work here... ."       "She should be laying all this out for you".

Probably at this point already, you are Both stressed out.   Too much work.

My advice is.    You are putting a lot of effort into this just by all the writing, thinking, blogging.



Go ahead and date her.  If you really want to that is... .

Nothing romantic though.    Just hang out.   Hear her story.    Tell her what is going on with you (does she listen?)

Is that possible for you two?

Date other women.     Imagine that you could be with someone else, you don't HAVE to be with her.

Seems like you are looking too far down the road.

You are fortunate that you can still choose.   Many of us are too deep in.   3 children.   Too difficult to start over.

Choose wisely because you don't want to be in love with someone with loves only them self.    By loving them self I mean (it is more important to them to lie to you, do damaging things to your relationship - money, time, caring).   That is Narcissistic Self Love.    They say they hate them self but really, they Care only about their needs.   Is she one of those?  If so, just walk away now... .    now... . 

[TonyC]

as i read kanais post...

i had a flash back... ick

you know how somethimes you look at things in the realtionship... that made you question but not challenge the thing that happend?

our time frame is about right valentine... i was close to a year as you are... .and my ex surfaced...

it just dawned on me... .

my ex wanted me to give up the progress i had made, the girlfriends i had, my family... .

after all the therapies and meds... .she had a goal...

to put me back right where she wanted me... in that dark world only she and i existed in...

i know i couldnt do it... after about two weeks of dating... which she weanted to see me everynight... and stay over everynight... i got it... the only thing that changed was the calender...

but you have to look like an observer in a clinic... and have your inspection list... .and check off the boxes... .and evaluate...

[mornstar]

Wow, it's still so strange to read other ppl's posts and see so much of my story... .Anyway, yeah, all of the above. Be very careful, Valentine. I left my bf for a year and three months. It started back up innocently enough - a few emails about new cd's by our favorite bands, some jokes, stories about townies.

Then there were texts. We met up and went for a walk. Hugged. Kissed.

He promised he'd taken care of his ___. He was stronger and he could deal with whatever, and he'd be there to help me take care of my depression/low self-esteem.

I let myself get sucked back in. It was just like I always thought it would be - if he had actually gotten "better" then he would have seen how our relationship is toxic and probably never will work, therefore he'd leave me alone; if he was still "sick" then he'd still want me.

So, what does she really want from you?

[Valentine09]

I want her therapist to e-mail me telling me that it's against her policy to talk to me before there is to be any meeting.

Any therapist who emails you with information about another person's therapy is in violation of HIPPA.  That law is there is protect third parties from infringing on the privacy of individual therapy.  Whatever is said in confidence to a therapist needs to be protected and that law was created for it.  Individual therapy is between two people, not three.  That means, you and I both get to talk to someone in confidence without another person triangulating (read definition) and butting into the therapy.  Unfortunately, the law is there because it needs to be due to "helicopter and " parents, spouses and even girlfriends and boyfriends.

Bottom line, if your girlfriend needs to prove to you that she has changed before you give her a second, third, fourth, fifth or sixth chance- and the proof comes out of the mouth of a therapist rather than due to her actions- then you really are setting yourself up for misinterpretation. Therapists are there to help one person get some insight- not two.  This therapist does not have you for a client- they have your girlfriend. A therapist is not aware of what your relationship with your girlfriend is like except for this perfect example of insistence that you are included. Therapists call that enmeshment, especially when you call and demand to speak to them about your girlfriend's therapy. Not only are you appearing controlling but you are asking for validation and approval from the therapist. Stop giving your power of attorney over to someone who sees your girlfriend once or twice a week for one hour.

Keep your therapies separate. Do not enmesh yourself in and possibly derail her therapy.  Her therapist doesn't need to email or call you.

If you wish to have couples counseling together- then talk to your girlfriend about it and if she agrees, set it up and make an appointment.

Borderline personality disorder is about persecutory feelings.  It is about being unable to manage a life outside of others.  It is the failure to separate/ individuate. Because of this, Borderlines often choose people who control and seek control in their adult lives. Therapy should seek to break free of these thoughts of helplessness. The therapist acts as a stand-in for the original controlling object so the Borderline can re-work and ultimately overcome the idea that they are kept prisoners.

I don't see how you are doing anything but adding on to this idea with your insistence that the Therapist give you an up to date synopsis of your girlfriend's therapy. 

Point taken.  I don't want to derail her therapy and any progress she's made and I've told her this.  But how do I verify that what she's telling me is the truth?  I wanted to be able to ask her therapist why she doesn't think she has BPD?  Because if I were able to tell her T what went on in the past and what my exgf is telling me now she might have a different diagnosis.  I just have a strong feeling she's BPD, and if she's misdiagnosed it'll never really get treated.  So that's why I feel the need to talk to her therapist, so she'll have more info, even if I'm out of the picture at that point.

As far as I know they've only been discussing her childhood traumas, which is important, because that's at the core of why she is who she is.  She says she realizes now that the way she acted was wrong and doesn't want to continue to do that and act in that way.  She says that she feels horrible for inflicting the same pain on me that her ex-husband inflicted on her when he cheated.   Sounds like she's attempting to take ownership, but at the same time she says she's trying to move on and forget about the past (including her horrible treatment of me).

Couples counseling at some point would be necessary.  I'm thinking the main reason she feels attracted to me is because of the drama that this creates.  I think she likes having to prove herself worthy.  Because when I tried to be with her before she didn't have to prove anything and wasn't interested in me.  She e-mailed me last night and said that she doesn't want to be with me because I'm convenient and that I'm worth fighting for, and that if she wanted to be in a relationship she could because the guy's she works with ask for her number but she turns them down.  Seems very fishy to me.  I wonder if I should just pretend to give in and say "okay I trust you" and see if the abusive behavior doesn't pop right back up. 

[TonyC]

and that if she wanted to be in a relationship she could because the guy's she works with ask for her number but she turns them down.  Seems very fishy to me.



why does she need to make that sound like an ultimatum... .

im not likin it either valentine... .

this is not the way to win you over       now is it

[Valentine09]

and that if she wanted to be in a relationship she could because the guy's she works with ask for her number but she turns them down.  Seems very fishy to me.



why does she need to make that sound like an ultimatum... .

im not likin it either valentine... .

this is not the way to win you over       now is it

No it isn't winning me over.  I just e-mailed her and asked if she still feels like she needs other men's attention and if she'll always say no to other guys. This was her response:

"I was trying to explain why you're not convenient... .and also that I'm not desperate. It's very easy to say no now, and I'm very aware of what I want. Not going to settle like I have in the past."

[TonyC]

I was trying to explain why you're not convenient... .and also that I'm not desperate. It's very easy to say no now, and I'm very aware of what I want. Not going to settle like I have in the past."

valentine you know her... .does she have a problem making straight up statements...

like

is she capable of saying... .i love you and want to be with you?

[Valentine09]

"is she capable of saying... .i love you and want to be with you?"

Yes, she's said that a lot recently.  But she also told me that in the past and says she doesn't remember.  So I'm going to question her more about that.  I don't know, this is all very shaky.  She said the last time we were in a relationship she wasn't ready and just got in it to make me happy.  That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  She can remember some of the bad stuff she did, but somethings she doesn't remember doing.  The fact that I have to remind her of everything she did just tells me not enough has changed if anything.  She just lumps everything that happened as the past and says that the past is over with and won't happen again.  She claims she just has a bad memory.  I think her mind disassociates from the bad things.  She'll just try to put a positive spin on everything, which is annoying when you've been hurt.  She wants me to get over the past and start fresh with her.  I'd maybe give her a month or two of relationship time, but if I'm not convinced then I'd have to shut her out for good.  

Also, she kind of justifies her cheating on her ex-husband by saying that he cheated on her first and was doing illegal activities.  That doesn't really sit well with me.  I'd never cheat, but she has taken things about me and blown them out of proportion to have a reason not to like me.  She admits to this, but seems like it could easily happen again and she could then justify cheating on me.

[Valentine09]

My main fears about her are:



She'll start thinking false thoughts about me again and blow them out of proportion to make her look like a victim:  She claims she won't do this again and feels it was wrong of her to do it the last time.  That she didn't want to get attached to me because she felt she wasn't deserving of someone like me.

That she'll feel victimized and eventually leave me for someone else: As I posted before she claims her ex-husband cheated on her, refused to go to counseling, was a porn addict, and was making false statements to the government and she didn't want to go to jail because of his lies and that's why she left him.  It's not something I can really verify, except that I did find a post she made on the internet forum when she was still married asking whether she should leave her husband for a man she met and the only grounds she mentioned was that he wasn't a Christian.  Everyone on the forum told her not to yet she continued on with her affair which eventually ended.  She has owned up to cheating on everyone she's ever been with and says she feels ashamed for having done that.



The push/pull behavior will start up again: She claims the reason for this was that she didn't want to get attached before but that she didn't want to lose me either, but now she's ready to attach and not let go.  She said that before she wanted to push me away because my love scared her, but that she's overcome that with therapy because her self-esteem has been lifted.

[Im.okay.now]

Valentine

With all due respect ... .this is nuts ... .you're not even back with her and she is driving you nuts and questioning yourself and questioning your moves and her moves already !

I'm no expert but i'm pretty sure that 2 people coming together isn't supposed to be like that. It should be beautiful ... .not this crazy and complicated stuff.

Sorry but the more i read this the less it makes sense to me.

[FreeToBe]

ION is right on here.

What a huge pain in the a55 this sounds like to me.  You seem to be a very decent, caring person Valentine. I know the hold she has on you, but is it really worth it?  Aren't you worth more?  Don't you deserve to have someone love you the same way you love them, with no bs? 

Its so hard to totally let go of them, but I think you owe it to yourself to be your own protector - and I know that's what you are doing with all the questions, but its not enough here man... . 

Even if she has changed for the better 100%, won't it eventually creep in that she still treated you like mud?  Will you ever truly forgive or forget that?

She has an answer for everything doesn't she? 

There are women out there that won't do this kinda stuff (so I'm told)... .   I hope you do what's best for you.  What is it about her really?  Is it even about her?

Hang in there man.

[vitalsigns]

Don't show, and then don't look back.

NC!

Take your power back!

[Im.okay.now]

There are women out there that won't do this kinda stuff (so I'm told)... .

Guaranteed ... .i have one ... .she acts in a way that i never have to wonder what foot to dance on, or worry about when the shoe will drop, or make me feel like i have to walk on eggshells ... .

It is well worth the wait, the search, the time or whatever you want to call it ! This should not be hard work or confusing or cause all of this anxiety ? It shouldn't be a battle.

Valentine - i don't know you ... .but you do sound like a good guy from what i've read in the last year or so ... .one way or the other ... .i think you are a good person that deserves better than this. Let yourself have a shot at better !

Unless of course this is what you "want"  ... .to never know ... .to never be able to trust ... .to never be able to believe her ... .to never know when she will drop you lying there half dead dead in the middle of the street ... .to never know when you'll get sideswiped out of nowhere ... .to never know if you are coming or going ... .to never know when you'll receive the next text telling you that she can't see you anymore ... .etc ... .etc ... .etc ... .

ION

[eman01]

Hey V, seems like you're in the spin cycle and it doesn't matter what advice anyone gives right now. It sounds like you really want to be with her. Sometimes you need to go through another spin cycle or more to finally wring out all the dirt. Only you can make that choice. Good luck and know that you'll get support over here when she finally wrings you dry.

[Kenai 91]

It's your life.  Your decision.

Based on what you've told us.

"Therapy" is in my opinion overrated for people with BPD / NPD.    I don't really think there is much of a cure.

The only "Cure" that I see has to do with the non-BPD / NPD partner  (you and I).   The solution is "Can YOU live with a person like this and still thrive in life?"

They are not going to change, only how you can or can not handle a life with them will change.

They will "change" in a way because if you Learn boundaries and how to enforce them lovingly / properly, then they will settle down, realize that although you love them, they are not the center of the universe.   And have to Deal with IT.

That is where I am at with my wife.  But it is a constant struggle for every square inch.   But keep in mind that I have paid Dearly to get to where i am currently with my wife.   And no "promised land" in sight... .

The fact that you are detached and based on what you've shared with your "new history with her"... .

My advice.

Quoting from a movie (Toy Story)

"Run like the wind Bullseye!"

[Valentine09]

Hey V, seems like you're in the spin cycle and it doesn't matter what advice anyone gives right now. It sounds like you really want to be with her. Sometimes you need to go through another spin cycle or more to finally wring out all the dirt. Only you can make that choice. Good luck and know that you'll get support over here when she finally wrings you dry.

That's pretty much how I'm feeling.  This would be her last last chance, no more after this. If she hasn't gotten her act together by now she never will.  I figure if nothing has changed then the abuse will become apparent again pretty quickly.  She's not pressuring me to marry her or even start up a dating relationship until I'm ready so I'm left feeling "what have I got to lose".  I've sworn off dating for the rest of the year because I'm simply tired of it, so it's not like I'd be missing any opportunities right now.  I've tried all year to work on myself, got a new job and moved to a big city, and even tried dating others.  She wrote something last night that sounded like she has the ability to change and mature and is interested in doing so:

"That email made me cry. Happy tears. Not bad ones. I love you too. And I often ask myself why I liked it/wanted you to be mean to me. The only answer I can think of is that it showed me that you were the "take charge" type. I don't know how else to explain it. My insecurities told me that if you weren't like my other boyfriends in that way, then I wouldn't know how to act, or maybe if I wasn't hard enough on myself when I failed at something, that you wouldn't be hard on me either, and I would never learn. I feel like a child sometimes, and I guess that feeling use to make me very insecure. Like, I had to know I was with someone who could be like a father figure (discipline wise) in order for me to "grow up" and mature. I remember you talking to me about not wanting to be my father. You're not my father. I shouldn't be looking for that kind of role from someone I'm in a relationship with. I shouldn't expect that. I need to grow up on my own, and when I'm ready, I'd love to welcome my so called "other half" into my life. As my life long partner. Not father. As a best friend. As someone I can grow old with, love more and more each day, grow closer to God with, and just be happy with- no matter what life brings our way. My father wasn't there for me growing up, but I have (always had) the best father EVER up in heaven. And that's who I need to look to when it comes to filling that void in my life. Not you or anyone else. I think I understand that better now. And the sweet side of you, the you I have loved since the very beginning,- I wouldn't trade that for anything. It's hard to find. And just knowing you is a great feeling. I may not have to chase you, I may not have to TRY to win your love, ect. But everyday with you would be greater then the last, and even through the bad times, I wouldn't want the journey to end. I'm sorry if all of this sounds cheesy. I'm not trying to make it sound cheesy! I'm just trying to explain to you how being with you wouldn't be something I'd get bored with, and I would want you to be you. Because you're who I want. Not the father figure I was trying to make you be before. I appreciate you pushing me to explain myself better! Because I want you to understand... .and I want to understand. This is part of how I remember things better. By thinking about them harder. And really talking about them. So thank you!"

[TonyC]

nov 09

I find it funny that her only message to me is "This isn't easy, I need you to know that."  Again, it's all about her and her needs.  She doesn't even stop to think how I feel.  And if it is so hard for her, then why would she have turned her back on me for the umpteenth time?  I don't believe it for a second.  She acts as if loving me and having me in her life is such a difficult decision, but she continually treats me like I don't exist when I do pay her attention.  I think I'm just going to enjoy her pathetic attempts at trying to win me over, because I worked too hard and expended too much energy to get her respect.  If anything she owes me.  I want my year back, I spent the bulk of it with her on my mind.  

valentine... its great she taking to blaming dad... .

she needs some accountibilty... and you need questions answered... .

maybe you should go back to 2009 november ... and compile some questions you need answers to... she has had a year to come up with answers... .

However, would a soulmate... .

*leave you for someone else just weeks after proclaiming their love for you?

*tell you how you don't live up to other people they'd rather be with or have already been with?

*take no real responsibility for hurting you?

*tell you that they want to marry you after hardly even dating and not seeing each other for a year because they left you for someone else?

you also... .prepare. ok... .

youve got some soul searching to do... .

[Valentine09]

It's interesting that you bring that up Tony.  She wrote this to me as well last night unsolicited:

"You have put so much effort into making us work. As friends, and more then friends. It shows you really, truly care. I've never wanted to disrespect your boundaries, but I also never wanted you to think that I stopped caring by not showing you that I'm trying to put the same amount of effort in us. No other guy friend of mine has ever showed this much dedication to making things right. Even if we never spoke again, I'd still feel like you dedicated all your effort and time into the time we did share together as friends, and more. This truly does show me you care, and I really appreciate that. It has always meant a lot. And I've never experienced anything like it before. Except from the love I felt for my animals growing up. And the love I feel for my Sister now that we talk more and of course, God. Because He has always been there. I want the chance to show you the same dedication. Because you're important/special to me. "

Yes, I have so many questions.  And I'm not moving forward till I get them all answered to my satisfaction. 

[TonyC]

when does she show... the effort?

hows this going to play out valentine...

where

when

what time...

i reccomend  a safe place... bar coffee house... or something... .a park...

not your home... not her home...

a place... you can exit  , and think... ,please prepare yourself... .i know from experience... me and the ex would... meet for similar... types of meetings...

and like 6 heartbreaks later... i finally interviewed her with my brain... ... .and was prepared to say

thanks but no thanks...

man hug.

[Valentine09]

I told her I didn't want to meet till I heard from her T, even if it's just an e-mail saying that her T won't talk to me because of privacy laws, and she agreed to this.  If she can't get her T to e-mail me then I guess I can't meet with my exgf.  I set that boundary and I need to stick to it.  I made no promises to her and she understands this.  I guess if that happens I could suggest to my exgf that she ask her T what she thinks and if there's an alternative.  If we meet, yes, it will be in a public location.  She lives an hour away, so I'd probably have her drive up here (which she's more than willing to do) and meet me somewhere I don't usually go.  I already brought up to my exgf that I don't want to be seduced and she got offended by that and said that she never thought of doing such a thing.  A lot of her actions and comments show me she's trying to overcome intimacy issues, and she may not be ready for a relationship.  I don't know if she has abandonment issues, seems highly plausible.  She denies having them, and I can't talk to her T to ask her if that's a possibility.  So if I can't get my answers, then I need to let go and cut this off.   

[Valentine09]

Well I met up with her tonight.  She had e-mailed me to tell me her T couldn't e-mail me to confirm anything so that boundary was shot.  So I figured I needed to cut this off and see her one last time.  I asked to see her phone and for her to show me her contact list, and she at first refused.  I told her if she had nothing to hide then it would be okay if she showed me.  She still had her ex in her contact list and she swore she hasn't been talking to him except for "networking" purposes to get a job.  Well, this was a big  |> because she had told me through e-mail that she wasn't in contact with any of her exes for any reason.  So this was a lie.  And she became very defensive when I told her she needed to delete him.  I knew this was the beginning of the end of our conversation tonight.  I wasn't about to let something like that slide.

She then proceeded to shift the blame on me for not talking to her this entire year, that I caused her SO MUCH PAIN and she considered killing herself.  Well, I think I was quite justified in not talking to her for all the pain and heartache she caused me.  The walking on eggshells feeling immediately came back.  I asked her some questions, but I was really just trying to find the courage to say "I can't do this and it will never work."  I finally was able to tell her that and she became upset.  She didn't understand why I wouldn't give her another chance.  It was because she wasn't acting very caring or concerned about the way that I felt.  For someone trying to earn back my trust, she made it pretty much all about her.  She then told me essentially that I wouldn't be able to do better than her, because most other women will hurt me much worse than she did.  I honestly don't see how that's possible since every other woman that I've been out with has the decency not to keep pulling me back in after rejecting me.  I feel sad, but it's coming up on two years of holding on to this STILL VERY TOXIC WOMAN and I need to move on.  She's had a year to change and I know now that without her good looks confusing the hell out of me I simply can't stand her. She still denies she has BPD, but the black and white thinking was still there and she's not changing. 

Thanks for all the support.  I'm giving of up on her for good now. And I'm not going to even think about dating anyone for a very long time.   You all were right.  Thank you.

[Kenai 91]

Valentine,

Thank you for updating us.   It is funny how we get involved in each other's stories.

You are making the right choice.   A hard one at that.   Hard because what I see is that partners of those with BPD / NPD are generally very strong people.  That is why you are attractive to her.    She senses that you are a "Hero".  To save her.  Deep down that is.   When you get in closer and see all the crap that she has inside, you realize that you can't fix it.  They resent you for not fixing it.   Blame you for not fixing it.   "I wouldn't act this way if you did  xyz... ."

My thought.   "I am truly sorry that life dealt you a raw hand (abusive parents, etc... .)"    "I wish I could fix it for you but I can't".   "You have crossed the boundaries time and time again... ."    "There is no next time".

My hope for your friend is that the REAL healing that she might get is that she will realize there ARE consequences for her actions.   Value ONE relationship in the future.   Value the children that she might bring into this world.

Your staying with her would probably harm her growth (never learn what consequences are).

Your leaving (really leaving, no hanging out from time to time) may be the best help that you could ever give to her.

Best wishes,

Jim

[TonyC]

i was curios how you would make out... .

and i had hoped you came back today and said she seemed to be a cbahnged woman... a year could have changed things. dramatically... .

im sorry... .she dissapointed you...

and i suppose... .one of the key things was shifitng all the blame on you... .

im sure a few im sorrys, and i didnt mean to do this or that... would have gone a long way... .

what was her demeanor? was she looking inot your eyes looking at her feet... .

did she say why she surfaced after a year?

[Im.okay.now]

Looks like you are making the right choice ... .Hang in there Valentine !

[Valentine09]

i was curios how you would make out... .

and i had hoped you came back today and said she seemed to be a cbahnged woman... a year could have changed things. dramatically... .

im sorry... .she dissapointed you...

and i suppose... .one of the key things was shifitng all the blame on you... .

im sure a few im sorrys, and i didnt mean to do this or that... would have gone a long way... .

what was her demeanor? was she looking inot your eyes looking at her feet... .

did she say why she surfaced after a year?

OMG, I still have her perfume scent on me from giving her a hug.  Her demeanor was one of nervousness, then it shifted to hyper, then to frustration, then to full-out defensive.  She said she has a lot of chaos going on inside her mind.  She told me she's working on not being so defensive, not seeing things in black and white.  She did look into my eyes some and she was flabbergasted that the so called "truth" she was telling me wasn't being taken at face value.  I kept telling her, I need some kind of verification that what you're telling me is trustworthy because as of now your words are meaningless.  She said I was the one with abandonment issues since I was so worried she'd leave me.   Well, she gave them to me, and she wasn't doing anything to soothe me.  I began to cry in front of her as I tried to recount what she did to wrong me.  I was looking for her to comfort me, but she just told me not cry, that she didn't know how to handle me doing that.  She said she felt my pain, but she felt everyone's pain, including her own, and that she's numb to it.  I honestly don't cry that much except in cases of extreme of hurt like this.  And she admits that she can't cry in front of others.  I really wanted to see her do it, to let me know that she's capable of feeling my pain, but she couldn't.  She told me she'd cry after we left because we wouldn't be seeing each other ever again.

She didn't just surface after a year, she's been trying to see me again since about February/March.  She kept wondering why God kept bringing me back in her life (meaning me responding to her excessive e-mails and text messages).    I kept telling her, "you've violated all my personal boundaries, haven't respected one of them."  She said that my boundaries weren't hers so she didn't feel like following them, but in a relationship we'd come up with our own boundaries to respect.  WTH?  I had gone NC for months after she chose another guy over me and I had given her a clear ultimatum, and she went as far as having her sister call me and contacting my T in order to try and communicate with me.  If that's not desperate and screaming of abandonment issues I don't know what is.  I communicated to her sister that I'd only speak to her again if she got into therapy and I could speak to the therapist, and her sister thought that was fair at the time.  Her sister told me DON'T START ANYTHING UP, SHE'LL GET BORED WITH YOU AND LEAVE YOU.  But last night, she told me her sister hates me now because I put up those boundaries.  So that was a huge  |> as well, that I was getting a conflicting viewpoint between her and her sister.  And that told me something huge, that my exgf has no qualms about playing her friends and family members against me in order to get her way, and she'd most assuredly isolate me from my parents and friends.  

And another interesting  |> moment was when she said: "I rely on my feelings to make decisions.  I know how I feel and that's how to make the right decision." Bingo, we've got a BPD winner!  I asked her how that's worked out for her past relationship decisions.  She looked at me funny, and said "it hasn't worked out well", yet she still believes that living her life based on feelings alone is the way to go.  I have feelings, but I also have the facts.  She told me the reason she loved me was because I was able to see the real her, and that she didn't have to pretend to be someone else around me.  We really hadn't dated long enough for me to get to know the real her, I just treated her extremely well because I did feel a connection to her. She told me that she believed this wouldn't work because I was being too judgemental, by placing the BPD label on her.  I simply told her I wasn't trying to label her, but that she meets nearly all the criteria and that I don't have a professional's opinon to explain any of it.  So BPD is my best guess, and BPD or not, I can't handle her. 

So while I wanted to feel comfortable enough last night to give her another chance, I just couldn't.  Not knowing everything I know.  Had I never gotten on this site a year ago I'd probably be stuck in a relationship with her right now.  We left each other with a big hug, got in our cars and drove off.  It's really the best outcome that could occur.

[Valentine09]

Valentine,

Thank you for updating us.   It is funny how we get involved in each other's stories.

You are making the right choice.   A hard one at that.   Hard because what I see is that partners of those with BPD / NPD are generally very strong people.  That is why you are attractive to her.    She senses that you are a "Hero".  To save her.  :)eep down that is.   When you get in closer and see all the crap that she has inside, you realize that you can't fix it.  They resent you for not fixing it.   Blame you for not fixing it.   "I wouldn't act this way if you did  xyz... ."

My thought.   "I am truly sorry that life dealt you a raw hand (abusive parents, etc... .)"    "I wish I could fix it for you but I can't".   "You have crossed the boundaries time and time again... ."    "There is no next time".

My hope for your friend is that the REAL healing that she might get is that she will realize there ARE consequences for her actions.   Value ONE relationship in the future.   Value the children that she might bring into this world.

Your staying with her would probably harm her growth (never learn what consequences are).

Your leaving (really leaving, no hanging out from time to time) may be the best help that you could ever give to her.

Best wishes,

Jim

I totally agree.  We're just hindering each other. She didn't want to give me any credit for being instrumental in getting her into therapy. And I'm fine with that, at least she got there. She really wasn't seeing the consequences and ramifications of her actions... .she just wanted me to GET OVER IT.  She kept wondering why God brought us together.  I told her what he was telling me, so that she'd get help and for me to learn that settling for less is never a good idea.  She doesn't buy that, she just thinks us coming together now was for no reason and brought us nothing but pain.  I'd like to think that I learned some valuable lessons from this.  I don't think she's really done any real learning yet.

[Kenai 91]

My bet is... .

She'll contact you again.    And again. 

The only reason that she won't is if she somehow can make up "the story" in her mind that SHE turned YOU down.

She can't handle it if You rejected Her.

Be prepared.   Block her number on your cell, e-mail if you really mean to get on with your life.

Seriously.   So what if she is hot?  Smells good.     My NPD/BPD wife is hot.   Doesn't mean much except that when she starts blaming you and runs out, she'll have no trouble finding someone to seduce and "soothe her hurts".   Then he'll tire of her and she'll come running back  "I'm soo sorry what was I thinking?  Can you Eva forgive me?"    You take her back like a sucker and everything is fine until you stand up for yourself about bounderies or why she is not pulling her weight.

Then... .   Rinse and repeat.    "Fine, if you feel that way about me, I'll just leave!".

2 months later... .   "I'm so Sorrry!... ."

I won't bother you any more after this.

My opinion is that you have been given a great gift.   The gift to LEAVE without strings attached.   That is why we are writing you so much because we see you on the fence with this one (STILL) even though you say you walked away.

Maybe I am judging here, but... .  I see you have posted on this site over 500 times.  Wouldn't you LIKE to never come back to this website?  Wouldn't you LIKE to get on with your life and never look back?

Find someone who cares about you as much as you do her?... .   They do exist.

I am in my marriage because we have three children (first one born a year after we married, before I had a chance to leave).   My wife IS in therapy, respecting boundaries, behaving, etc... .   But she is STILL a Narcissist.  I still have to explain to my wife "Honey, don't you think you could talk to the kids THIS way instead of yelling at them if they haven't gotten dressed for school yet?... ."    "Oh you're right".       Well... .I am tired of being Right.   I just wish she would GET IT. 

But This is my life.  I've chosen to stay.   You on the other hand have been given the gift of freedom.   

Take it.

I don't complain to many friends or family any more or at least very often.   "Why?" you might ask?

Because I know that they are thinking.   "Bro, you made your choice.  I am here to help you and be your friend, but let's try to just enjoy hanging out.   And NOT talk about her."

If I did complain about her, I would wear them out.

[Valentine09]

Thanks Kenai, duly noted.  I would love to never have to come back to this site.  I really feel like venting today because I didn't sleep well after seeing her.  I think the last bit of pain I was holding onto was released and I'm starting to feel better this morning.  I was foolishly holding out hope that she wasn't really BPD, that it was something lesser and that the therapy she's been getting was solving the problem.  I gave her plenty of time to get her act straight and the evidence is insurmountable that it will never work ever.  

You're right, she probably will try to contact me again, because in effect this time I did reject her.  She lost her power, she'll want it back for sure.  She told me last night she likes being alone and doesn't need a man in her life, but I don't buy it.  She needs some connection to a man no matter what she says.  

You're right about it being a gift.  I do have the choice and enough strength now to walk away.  I've been building up that strength to let her go completely for a year now, and it's time. Wish I could have done it sooner.  She had two gifts she wanted to give me last night and I refused to take them.  I knew that if I accepted she would have some sort of hook in me again, playing on my emotions and I would feel guilt ridden.  She laid on the guilt thick too, telling me how thoughtful a gift it was and that she'd just have to throw it in the trash, as if I was throwing her away.  I told her I had gotten rid of everything else she had ever given me in order to forget and move on.  It's time to move on.

[TonyC]

its very sad valentine... you sat with her... .

i stood with my ex in a park... and my house was only 10 houses away...

i remember the parting... . and watching her... .and knowing that would be it... .the end of the road... .and the end of what could have been... .hope was gone... promises were broken and expectations  were never met... .

im sorry... real sorry... .i remember the feeling some comfort in that it was over... .and i could move on ... .but still there was the other feeling... .like the ship offically sunk to the bottom... you did great... many like me  put on the rose colored glasses... and saw what we wanted to see... then had our asses handed to us when we were knee deep back in it...

man hug... .

[Valentine09]

Never again Tony, never again      Thanks

[OnNOffAgainGF]

 I would love to never have to come back to this site. ... .   I gave her plenty of time to get her act straight and the evidence is insurmountable that it will never work ever.  

... . I told her I had gotten rid of everything else she had ever given me in order to forget and move on.  It's time to move on.

Bravo to you Valentine, for being so courageous and walking away.  You're right, the evidence IS insurmountable against you as a couple, but you tried your best. 

Kudos on the destroying of mementos of your relationship with her. I still need to do this, to shut the door forever.  I'm impressed by your strength here, and also refusal to reengage by accepting new presents.  Good for you.  She definately failed to "seduce you" to take them, and you should feel very proud about that!

The best take away I've gotten about BPD is that when I have the courage to date again <gulp>, that I will know not only how to screen forred-flag  for BPD, but most importantly, when I meet another non BPD partner, I will treat him incredibly well because it will be so damn easy to be in a relationship with them.   If they love me, they say so and most importantly treat me as such.  I don't want to have to work this hard all the time for little to no payoff anymore. 

The #'s are in our favor that if we (non BPD's) do the work we need to on ourselves, and look or the telltale   while dating, that we can and will attract an emotionally healthy partner!  If 5.9% have BPD, then the chances of dating a non BPD are 94%. 

I am taking to heart about what the poster with a BPDwife and 3 kids said about me too being "free to leave" because I don't have to ever see my ex bf again because we have no children together (thank god).  There is SO MUCH about this last "go round" of dating the last 3 1/2 months that my friends and family don't know because I was ashamed of it, or of his addicitions, basically the truth, that I carried the burden alone of it for most of the time, and it was really hard to deal with life that way.  I am usually an open book, so I can't wait till I have someone who treats me decently back for a change.  I will treat him so well and appreciate him like no one before has because of this experience dating someone and getting crumbs back, if anything. 

I'm sick of living off crumbs of loving emotion. 

I hope you are too.   

For god's sake, your ex gf can't even decently keep the tone apologetic to you, during her 1 shot to show that "she's changed and remorseful" and instead starts getting defensive.  You're right, she has BPD, and since she is still denying it, cut your losses and move on.  Don't talk to her, don't talk to her sister, nothing, NC. 

She will definately be back at some point, in some way.  Hopefully, by then you'll be happily attached to some woman that will be crazy about you (in a good way!  ) and you'll be dreaming about your normal future family with her, so her interuption in your life will completely be a non issue and I promise, it won't hurt so badly as it does now.

Thanks for openly sharing your story.

[Valentine09]

Thanks for the response OnNoffAgainGF     

It was quite insane last night now that I think about it, trying to question her about her actions over the past.  She told me point blank, "I like who I am and I'm not changing."  That was enough right there.  She was constantly saying "After all this truth that I've just spoken to you, you don't want to even try to date and have a relationship."  I kept trying to tell her that her "truth" was nothing based in reality and that I needed to verify her "truth" somehow.  I told her I didn't trust her, yet she was mad at me for not believing what she was telling me.  It was rather ridiculous.

The fact that she still had her ex on her phone and still tried to rationalize why she needed him on there told me she wasn't done getting attention from other men.  It would only be a matter of time before she decided she needed a guy with different qualities than myself and go looking elsewhere. I feel sorry for her really, she just doesn't get how bad her behavior is and is so sure that the way she's behaving is acceptable.  She told me last night that she's the most logical, easy to get-along with compromising person in the world and she doesn't understand why people have such a problem with her.  She's not really sorry for her past actions, because she still has justifications and defenses to go along with all of them.

It's helped to hang out with some girls this year that actually treated me very well, I just wasn't as super attracted to them as my exgf.  It helped me to see what a healthy relationship could be like and that I just need to hold out for better.  I managed to get a phone session with my T tomorrow afternoon and I'll consider that my "exit interview" from this relationship.

[Josefina]

wow! what a rollercoaster. It is so damn painful. I give you a lot of credit. I have to learn from you... and be strong and eliminate her completely out of my mind... .she is still in my mind on a daily basis, the mementos I still cherish and the chaos odf memories that just bring me pain but also good memories... .it is a daily struggle... I hope she does not look back and try to reach me... after 3 months of NC from her own believe that she "dumped" me... she always comes back and I have always taken her... last big break up was 1 year ago... but last time I really saw her was almost like your encounter... it was uncanny to see how two people that do not know each other your ex and my ex,... can just say literally the same things... the hair behind my neck was spooked the whole time, I even thought you were talking to my 'ex"... wow... it is a condition that we can "fix" it is so addictive and toxic at the same time... it is no wonder we are still coming here after a year... it is like looking for some type of understanding or validation to our feelings and trying to understand that it was not "us"'... we tried, we did our best... no matter what... it would have never worked... it is much healthier to let go... as painful as it is. I trick myself to avaoid the daily pain and I imagine she went in a long trip to Australia and that she is happy living her life, that there is no phone or computers where she is, maybe in the middle of a jungle that she built for herself. I feel sorry for her... becasue I still care and love her. But, we need to move on... for good.

[Valentine09]

Interesting, instead of imagining mine in Australia, I imagine mine serving a life-term without parole in a supermax prison, for being a serial murderer of my heart, haha.  And in fact, they are imprisoned in their own minds.  We tried to break them out, but they're locked up tight and the key has been thrown away.  They'll have to make their escape from the inside, and they might not leave until they die.

It is eerie how similar our stories are, and that has been the key for me, to use other people's stories on here to convince myself that she's no good.  It has helped me to arm myself with enough confidence that this is not the right path to take in life.   And even though mine hasn't been officially diagnosed BPD, she fits all the criteria plus acts the part.  If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.  I kept trying to rationalize with her, big mistake, that her trying to keep me as a friend and dating other guys was sadistic.  She'd seduce me back in by talking to me in a romantic way, but never delivered.  She told me she wasn't ready for a relationship with me but didn't want to lose me, yet she still didn't believe that was being possessive, desperate, or a sign of having abandonment issues.  And she was justifying this up until the other night.  They don't change.  And I think sadistic is an appropriate word, because I believe 100% I was talking to Satan when talking to her. 

[Mousse]

 And I think sadistic is an appropriate word, because I believe 100% I was talking to Satan when talking to her.  

Do you believe she doesn't feel pain, ever?  While it felt sadistic at the time because you were in pain, the truth is usually a lot more complex than "flat-out evil".

You did well by yourself (and her) by not taking her up on her offer.  She clearly can't be a good partner to anyone right now.

I'm glad you are in T, and I hope you stick around this site as well.  Maybe you could come on over to Personal Inventory    She put you on a pedestal to get you to that meeting.  You seemed cool with that, and with insisting that she jump through some hoops to prove herself worthy.   As long as we are okay with pedestals and with people trying to "win" each other - like love's a cat-and-mouse game - we will continue to be vulnerable and disappointed.

You made a healthy choice.  Be proud of yourself     Just consider that the story usually doesn't end when the relationship does.  We achieve true closure when we look a little more closely at ourselves.  

 

[Valentine09]

Yes, I believe she's always in pain, and I know she's not intentionally trying to inflict it. She even told me my 9 months of NC was exacting a cruel revenge on her to the point to where she became suicidal, when I was only trying to protect myself. But her behavior was sadistic, and I believe in God and demonic forces. I believe Satan has a hold on her unfortunately. That's just my belief and many on here will disagree.  But I personally believe this has been a test from God in order to better hear His voice and learn to say no when He tells me not to do something.  When I ignored what He was saying and what my friends were saying I became isolated and distant. I never would have been clued into BPD or this site if it hadn't been for God.  And this whole drama served the dual purpose of getting her into therapy and to show her that not every guy is abusive and will take advantage of her like most of the guys she's been with. And yes, I realize she did feed me distortions about her former boyfriends and ex-husband and even told her family lies about me... .but I NEVER used her for her body like I know the rest did.

I met with her knowing it wouldn't work, and quite frankly being able to say no to her in person while facing her beauty was a lot more powerful for me than just going NC like I had done in the past.  It brought it to a much more personal level of closure and I literally felt like I took my power back. It was a gift that we left it on relatively good terms. I mean we hugged at the end as opposed to screaming at each other.  That's a bonus in my book.

However, the feeling of empowerment felt like that movie Highlander whenever he'd decapitate an immortal to gain their life force. This felt like that, I really felt I got my life back where I haven't in all my other attempts to leave her in the past.  I faced my fear, a real live demon and told it that it had no power on me.  

I had already decided, as I had posted on here, that if I couldn't talk to her T then this wouldn't work.    That was the last boundary that would be broken.   She told me she gave her T permission to talk to me but the T refused. And just for the record I talked to my T this afternoon and my exgf was lying about her T not being able to talk to me. My T is licensed in the same state so he'd know.  Her's wouldn't have lost her license.   I was doubting whether it was BPD and thought it could be something lesser, and I wanted to be able to tell her T what I thought since my exgf gave me permission to talk to her. If the T still disagreed that it was BPD, then fine. But I think she has no clue and my exgf isn't correctly diagnosed as a result.  It's actually good that I didn't talk to her T because that would just drag this ordeal on longer for me.   

And no, I wasn't okay with her putting me up on a pedestal. I didn't want her to win me over, I just wanted her to tell the truth and know in my heart that change wasn't possible.  I was doing all the work just to try to get that out of her and that's not the way it should be.  I'll never give anyone else this many chances, and I know now that relationships shouldn't be this pain-filled where I'm doing all the work.  If a woman wants to change me, try to distort my reality, or try to isolate me from my friends and family I'll drop her in no time flat.  

I told my exgf to stop idealizing me  2 months ago when I tried to get closure, because she was being unrealistic and I tried to explain  to her she was seeing all black and white, and I'm not perfect.  I told her to stop sending me all these cutesy poems she wrote about me because they weren't based in reality.  Actually, I'm done with this site.  To keep posting much more would just be a reminder of this relationship.  I have OCD so I have a tendency to keep posting just for the heck of it.  I'm now officially drama free.  I learned a ton on here and was able to arm myself with plenty of info to make a sound decision and I have no regrets like I did every other time I tried to officially say goodbye.  

[David Dare]

V09, thanks for sharing this story with us. 

[swmdBPbfofuBPDgf]

Valentine... .I connect with you as a fellow sufferer... and those here longer than I know your back story where I do not, but on a purely humanistic level, I have serious issues with a lot of what was said here... .Normally I would scroll along, but after you bullet point all the requirements you were insistent on, the most egregious being your insistence on essentially reading the transcripts of her time with her T, and wanting to call all the numbers on her phone for God knows why, because you state you went NC for 9 months and then to follow up all that static and confusion with

"I feel like she's still trying to control the situation."... .It actually felt refreshing to laugh aloud reading that and furthermore, compelled me to trudge on, for methought there was a twist in here... .Well, I wasn't disappointed...  

Val, you stated "a year of mainly No Contact"... .which makes no sense... .was it NO or Low ? NO means you're done, yet  you still want to look at her phone records and therapy receipts?

It's fairly obvious here that you were not done with her... .which makes your NC not NC at all, but the Silent treatment for she stated to you how painful the NC was... .

I'll spare you the gory details, but the Silent treatment you just dropped on her is Abuse of the highest magnitude... .emotional, mental, spiritual... .its one of the most cruel and damaging things one can do to a loved one, and there is NO EXCUSE FOR IT... .other than you're own sadisticness and controlling behaviors... .Google Silent treatment... it aint pretty...

yet  you clearly state that in spite of everything you still loved her but were planning on dating her for a long time (though that somehow doesn't constitute a relship?) before thinking about marrying her again, she VOLUNTARILY went to therapy and stuck it out (99%  chance of her NOT being diagnosable  BPD right there)., and she came to you requesting a face to face communication instead of the contemporary chicken s$%t way of texting and emailing and somehow that got spun back on her for being seducing or enticing or manipulating

Then came your diagnosis... and no disrespect meant, but to infer that she has been satanically influenced calls your critical  thinking skills in to question here "I'm doubting whether she really has BPD or just has PTSD, anxiety, OCD.   From what I witnessed in the past she exhibited most of the criteria for BPD."   

Finally, "I never really got the "honeymoon" phase.    But I'm also not sure if I'm getting suckered again. I'm not sure that I'm not just entering the honeymoon phase now."

It appears you are in over your head here... she went to therapy to heal and she wants to reconnect with you and somehow this is being spun disastrously for the two of you... .She obviously has strong feelings for you and you have for her, yet she while she was working on herself this last year, it appears you are stuck in the pain and hurt of it all still... and thats fine, it takes what it takes for people to heal... .

Once again, all NC got you was no information, leaving you alone to obsess at wiill about everything she was and wasn't doing and every person you feared she might be doing, all the while she was working on herself to come back to you

Frankly, what you just detailed here is highly abusive, acting out on your part for your still in immense pain from what was done to you... .and what was done to you was real painful and sad, but that does not give you the green light to even the score, especially when it appears many efforts were being made to better herself and fix her hurting ways

Tough stuff reading all this, but in retrospect, maybe your best thought here was trying to force an encounter with her T... .but don't make it an investigatory one, make an appointment for yourself, for whatever has happened here has affected your thinking, and just try to stick to rule #1... .Do no more harm... its time to sack up and do the nitty gritty work of healing yourself

Hang in there, and I'm sorry if i come off harsh, but only the harsher responses have pushed me to do the work... peace

[Zaber]

Sorry to hear you are going through so much, bt at least you are in the right place for support!  There's no way I would have been able to manage my situation without the 'family' here!

Therapists must adhere to ethics and laws associated with confidentiality.  As a Counsellor myself, I would never consent to divulge information to a third party even with written consent!  The ONLY obligation I have EVEN to PROFESSIONAL third parties is to confirm appointment only and THAT is with CLIENTS written consent... or perhaps in support of a client accessing additional professional services.  However, it would never be in the form of a conversation.  It must be factual and it is ONLY MY professional opinion and even so, authorisation from the client must be obtained and more than likely, I would run the sitation past my clinical supervisor before taking any action if any at all.

The only onther circumstance is subpeanoship... .(gosh I can't spell! )  This means I ordered by the Courts to disclose.  However, I personally, don't write notes.  I have what is in my head.  I would always protect the welfare of my client first and foremost... .so I guess in YOUR situation... like 2010 and others suggest... .that ain't gonna happen.

I understand you quandary and your desperation for answers as I am sure all do here.  Change takes time.  Ask yourself, what are you doing differently this time?  What changes have you made?  People, in life, not even just pwBPD can sometimes be influenced by the actions of another... .cause and effect.

I was on the Leaving board also... .but I see it is far more difficult now trying to maintain that.  The changes I have made this time are... NC via any source ( despite him accessing information that he shouldn't)... .because at the end of the day I am in CONTROL of what I AM doing... .I cannot control HIM.  So no social networking, no mutual friends, no telephone, no 'popping up' in places where I KNOW he might be... .complete avoidance and trying to build my life AWAY from him.  HIS response to this has been to write things on SN sites, implying his regret and sadness over losing me ( because I was TOLD about the nasty stuff last time by my friend so NOW HE thinks I will hear again)  but I have said to my friends, I don't care what you hear, read or see... .I am not interested... .because it is probably just a ploy to get back in my affections again... .testing and retesting partners it is called (I think).

As I write this I know what will happen next, because as many on here might say, unless the pwBPD finds another partner to focus on... .it is ulikely they will shift focus from you and the cycle repeats again.  I persoanlly KNOW that HE will not find anyone BETTER than me... .but the fact that HE knows that too makes things all the more strenuous, particularly if the person with BPD feels akin to their Partner.  I have D.I.D (recently confirmed) so it is VERY difficult for both of us... but I am trying and God loves a trier!    Good luck and I hope things ease up for you! ... .Much love, Zabs

[Valentine09]

Wow, some people on here sound just like my exgf.  If you want to call it limited contact, fine. In my mind, I wanted it to be done and over each time.  I thought change might be possible, because some people do change.  Change takes time, so I wasn't about to talk to my ex during her "change" process.  She claimed, not I, that she had changed enough and I gave her the benefit of the doubt twice this year (August and this past week) to prove that.  But nothing had changed.

   I went NC in November, reengaged in March and August, each for only a few days through e-mail to assess whether change had occurred. Never did I initiate the contact.  These were long stretches where clear boundaries were set each time.  I stopped talking to her in November when she went off with another guy and I had told her before she did that IF SHE DIDN'T CHOOSE ME SHE WOULD LOSE ME.  That's not the silent treatment, that was a clear ultimatum/boundary, she knew the consequences AND SHE IGNORED THEM. We had already done this toxic dance many times that year so I had reached my limit. 

Setting up boundaries to protect my mental and emotional health is not being cruel.  She repeatedly pulled me back into the relationship with seduction when I made it clear I wanted to be the only guy in her life.  She'd then immediately turn around and tell me she wasn't done messing around with other guys so I told her we couldn't be friends because my feelings had gone past the friends stage and I couldn't handle it. She wanted her cake and eat it too.  What she did from that point forward WAS CRUEL, especially when I told her to STOP IT and that she was HURTING ME!  Normally when you tell someone this they'll respect your wishes and leave you alone so they won't cause you more pain, but she wouldn't.

I told her we couldn't be just friends and she couldn't accept that.  To make me listen to all the sordid details of the relationships she was carrying on when I wanted her to be my girl was CRUEL.  I didn't choose that.  I told her to leave me alone unless she wanted a real relationship, just the two of us.   And I told her this and she wouldn't stop.  There was no settling of scores.  I gave her every chance in the world for a year prior, so think what you want, but I wasn't trying to exact revenge.  Her pain was brought upon herself because she effectively ended the relationship with her choices.  I WAS trying to get her to see the consequences of her choices, but I WAS NOT trying to inflict pain.  Consequences can be painful.  She chose the consequences. I wanted her to be able to grow up and see that she wasn't treating me right. 

She wouldn't stop trying to contact me and it was becoming harassing, so in March after she wouldn't stop, I responded to her and told her what she was doing was extremely hurtful and that she wasn't letting me move on.  At that point I didn't believe she was sorry because she wanted to get with me literally right after she broke up with the guy she chose over me. I knew she was messed up and if she wanted to talk to me again she'd have to get therapy AND prove that it was effective. She refused to do that AND SHE CONTINUED TO DISRESPECT MY BOUNDARIES by trying to contact me when she was clearly told not to.  You don't build trust when you outright go against someone's wishes, and that's what she was doing to me. 

I had blocked her number and she still went around that to talk to me when I had set up a clear boundary.  I never once initiated contact this entire year.  Me being cruel is if I tried contacting her and then cutting it off, which wasn't the case.  She knew I didn't want to talk to her and knew why I didn't want to talk to her.  She contacted my T!  And he told her that I didn't want to have any contact unless she got therapy, and even set up a time frame to do that.  And no, he wasn't in any violation by talking to her.  I gave him permission, and I even had her go see him the previous year.  He still has his license.   It was made abundantly clear to her that if she didn't go and get some help and give me ample proof that she was trustworthy that I DIDN'T WANT TO TALK TO HER AGAIN EVER.  Simple as that. And I kept giving her the benefit of the doubt.  And ample proof is me being able to talk to her T to see that she's actually going to one.  You're questioning my critical thinking, when I've been seeing my T and discussing exactly how to handle the situation every month for a year.  I didn't act alone, I thought about what I did before I acted... .so I suppose you think my T is cruel and sadistic too because I followed what he told me exactly, and confirmed it with my parents a friends before doing anything.  And I've been seeing him way before I met my ex and he's helped me through a lot of other issues with stellar results. So  think what you will.   

I didn't even ask for receipts or to look into all her personal stuff, she told me she'd show me those things and that she'd give me full access to make me feel at ease.  Hello!  Do you guys just expect me to take her word at face value when I've been fed mostly lies?  I don't think so!  I need evidence, and I was looking for inconsistencies in her statements.  No one can maintain a relationship based on lies, and I was trying to confirm if I was being lied to.  And she was clearly lying, because when I took her up on her "all-access" offer she denied me access.  She had told me she was in contact with NONE of her exes, when she clearly was.  That was a BIG FAT LIE. I told her beforehand, if she is in contact with any of her exes in any way, I wanted nothing to do with her.  The proof was on her phone.  And after all the lies she's giving me, one more lie was too many.  If she wanted me to be comfortable around her she'd have to get rid of the others and she failed to do that.  If she was making a real attempt to change she wouldn't still be trying to justify her behavior like she's been doing. She said it was wrong, but she was still defending her actions as if they were right.

I was very happy when she did start going to therapy, she does want to change, she's taking some of the right steps, but she isn't changed.  She's still a liar, she's still manipulative, and she still doesn't realize this.  Me assessing the situation by briefly breaking NC was necessary.  So if you want to get strict about definitions and lingo on here, I am officially NC now.  I will not have any contact with her from this point forward.  Everything is being blocked and I want nothing to do with her.  She had her chance to prove herself trustworthy and that time has lapsed.  No more chances, no more contact.

Yes I believe she is satanically influenced because she was bending scripture the other night in order to influence me back into the relationship.  She told me that God doesn't give us a spirit of fear, and that the uneasy feelings I told her I was having about the relationship was from the devil and not from God, and that I should go against the devil and be in a relationship with her to get rid of my fear.  Fortunately since I try to store what I can of that in my heart,I knew what she was saying was false.  I'm a Christian, and if you don't believe in that, I don't expect you to understand it at all, but it has greatly helped me to understand the bigger picture of all this.  I believe God has a plan for my life and this relationship has been a big distraction from what He wants me to accomplish.  If the devil can't make you do bad, he'll keep you busy.  That's exactly what happened.  And at the same time, this was part of God's plan and I'm better for it. 

Anyways, I need to get off here and stop trying to defend my actions.  It's over, think what you will. 

[Patty]

Hi guys

As you know, we locked this thread a few days ago as things got a little heated but it is now unlocked and hopefully it will get back on track again.   

However triggering, we never really know if it is our over reaction, our another members misstep, but it is important that we give everyone the benefit of the doubt and not engage.

The following guideline is important and it would be appreciated if you could  be mindful of it:

Advising and Supporting Others: 

Members critiquing, or challenging the advise of others should offer their comments in a respectful, positive and constructive manner. Members should respect and embrace the opinions of others, not deride them, and recognize diversity is an important part of the learning process. Forum is the exchange of ideas, not a debate or an argument to be won. Our common interests and goals are what brings us together - let it not be what comes between us.

Thanks everyone.

Best wishes

Patty

[Skip]

Hmmm, maybe I posted on the wrong board.  Care to elaborate? 

This is the leaving board 

The foundation for a relationship recovery is not going to be found in an interview of the therapist, examining phone texts, looking at invoices, GPD ankle bracelets, etc.     These things are you looking for her to heal your injuries. That a lot to thrust on anyone - and even more to thrust on a person with BPD traits.

Anyone that has gotten back and made it work, did some serious work on themselves and in reading your comments, there is a lot of injury being expressed.  You may not ready to have a constructive conversation with her.  I have read countless posts of members trying to get healed and find redemption by re-entering the relationship - it always seems to end up in the same place.

Imagine you and some buddy get into a brawl and afterward he says, "hey man, I'm sorry" - would you say "prove it - and prove that I was right". Of course not, you would know that it would just start the fight all over again.  Likely you would say "OK" and then keep your distance, heal yourself,  and slowly ease back in.  You probably would never talk about the previous fight.

For now, I would keep it light.

1) If your not already in therapy, get in.  You are injured from the relationship and you need to resolve that on your own.  If you put that on the reconciliation, you will doom it to fail.  Any partner would eventually resent that. A fresh start needs to have some freshness to it.

2) Post on the Staying board.  You will learn the tools you need to communicate with her. Members there will encourage you to look at yourself.  This board is about disengaging, grieving, getting out.

3) Unhealthy behavior by one partner does not justify unhealthy behavior by the other.  If you can't proceed on a healthy basis - don't proceed.

When relationship crash and burns badly, it is hard to get both partners back up to a place where they can rehabilitate the relationship.  It can be done, but it takes a great deal of maturity.  Sometimes we haveto accept that the breakup was so damaging that threre is  no rehabilitation.

Hang in there,

Skippy

[Valentine09]

Thanks,  I'm done with her.  I'm no longer leaving, I left.  I have no use for her compulsive/pathological lying, BPD or not.

[Skip]

What happened?

[Valentine09]

Ummm, no offense, but didn't you read all the posts here?   I met with her the other night and she was clearly lying to me, laying on heavy guilt trips and being defensive, when the point of us meeting up was for her to begin to earn back my trust because she was pleading with me to give her another chance and she wanted to get married (with the understanding that there was no pressure to start anything that night).  I had written her an e-mail two months prior that if she was conducting any form of contact with any of her exes, because she was triangulating (read definition) with them before, that I wanted nothing to do with her.  And I had asked her how she was going to prove to me that she was no longer carrying on relationships behind my back.  She told me she'd give me access to all her info and let me talk to her T to prove she was going.

The deal was that she go to therapy and not contact me for 6 months (starting in June)  and then we'd reassess the situation.  However she kept texting me during that time claiming to have changed already... .which I didn't believe, but I tried giving her the benefit of the doubt and hearing what she had to say... .which was a bunch of confabulated rubbish.  Since she turned around and said I couldn't talk to her T after she said I could, I asked to see her phone and at first she refused.  So much for allowing me access to her info.  She did let me see her contacts list and her exbf, who she had cheated on her ex-husband and ended her marriage for was still in her contacts list.  That broke my boundary of her not having any contact with her exes, because she said she wasn't talking to him, when she has been talking to him.  It wasn't speculation, she told me she had been using him for help with resumes and stuff.  Well, that doesn't fly with me... .and their relationship had ended 2 years ago right before we met.  She has no business still talking to someone she committed adultery with while claiming she's a changed woman of God.  Sorry, the two just don't mix.  Plus, she was telling me how much her sister hated me for setting up the 6 month/therapy boundary... .when I set that boundary up WITH her sister.  I told her sister my terms and she was fine with it at the time.  Her sister even told me not to get involved again with my exgf back in April because she was unstable.  She told me she'd eventually get bored and leave me.  I had about 5 obvious lies thrown at me in one evening, the one chance she had to try to make things right with me.  I'm not going back to that.  No more chances.

[TonyC]

well like i always say ... you need to be sure before you call it over... .

valentine... its time to work on yourself... and put your wheels back on after. all this...

[Valentine09]

well like i always say ... you need to be sure before you call it over... .

valentine... its time to work on yourself... and put your wheels back on after. all this...

Yes, I've been reevaluating what has gotten out of balance in my life a lot and have a plan to go forward and work on those things.  I'm not stepping back into a relationship until I'm content with everything else. 

[TonyC]

youve got to put all the pieces of you... .back together... your like a debris field... .i know i was... and figure out your part in the dance... .and be vigilant in the future...



and you could help others... that want another good look around here... .

[Valentine09]

Yes, I do feel like I have been dismantled and it's time to repair.  Obviously change is possible for some, and my exgf might change... .in another 25 years.  Can't wait that long though, .  I kept going back, because she was the most beautiful charming girl I've ever spent any time with.  I lost my job literally the day after our first date... .so she seemed for a short time to be the only thing great happening in my life.  I was out of work for a year and a half so that didn't help and I was very vulnerable the whole time, looking back.   I should've said goodbye and not looked back in March '09 the first time she chose someone else over me.  I didn't know better... .I really hadn't had that much dating experience before her.  She kept throwing my lack of experience in my face as a way to justify her behavior, calling it normal when it wasn't.  I had only one other relationship before her.  She was even talking about my lack of experience the other night... .when I've gone out with about 8 girls this year.  I think I know better what's acceptable and what's not now.  Each time I gave her another chance it got progressively worse and I was hooked just a little bit more.  It's been good for me not seeing her all this year.  When I saw her the other night, she was still beautiful, she had lost weight, but I already knew that I didn't want to get sidetracked by that like I had in the past.