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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Re: Strange Sexual Behaviors?  (Read 8064 times)
DC Daniel
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« on: December 09, 2010, 08:49:48 AM »

For me, we had incredible porn star sex also. I've never experienced anything like it. It was really exciting: anything went; it was wild and abandoned. No inhibitions; she knew instinctively what I liked, and she was really responsive and orgasmic: incredible. That was pre-kids. As soon as the kids came along, she was unable to reach orgasm, and has never been able to since, in seven years. We pretty much stopped having sex.

She went to the doc after some pressure from me, who told her he couldn't see anything amiss down there. He referred her to a gynecologist. Who said he couldn't find anything wrong. Six months later, she went to get a second opinion from another gynecologist. And guess what? He said there was nothing physically wrong either. Then, we found the top gynecologist specializing in sexual health. And he also said "there's nothing wrong with you". He actually prescribed viagra for her. Which she "lost" before she had a chance to try it. Anyway, she now avoids sex completely except when she thinks I'm ready to walk. So it's become a simple tool of manipulation.

Interesting.

I never had children with my exBPDw... She always felt that having an embryo growing inside of her was disgusting, and that she was unfit to raise a child... But beyond that she felt her body was unfit to support the needs of a growing embryo... She grimaced and said the thought made her feel sick and gross...

In a rare moment of truth, she once told me that at 18 she had considered sterilization - Her fear of raising a child that would endure her horrible existence overrode any desire for her to have kids... .Imagine that, a beautiful 18 year old that wants to be sterilized for life... Sad, isn't it?


Getting back to your post, I wonder if many BPD women have similiar fears, and that for the ones that actually do have children, results in a lack of sex drive and further deepening of their illness / self hate.  I thank god everyday that I did not have a child with her... It would have been a disaster... And I would have fought for full custody for years if I had to.

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grimalkin
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2010, 09:35:37 AM »

Eventually you'll come to see that your own desires and needs were projected upon the Borderline and you'll find out what that projection was when you look back and see where the valuation begins. Did you want a submissive, or maybe a sex slave? Follow the reward. Then ask yourself why you thought that this person you projected upon would feel anything but punished and used for sex. Much like a prostitute.  It's a disorder. It's not going away unless they stop compulsively doing the reward valuations. Unless they can replace it with something else, sex will be a huge motivator, especially for the partner.  When you are disengaging from this dysfunctional dance- it's important to un-romanticize the sex and call it for what it was- manipulated fantasy Idea

So would it be fair to say that it *seemed* as if things were extra genuine during sex because the BP was going through this heightened emotional state of punishment and valuation?  Yes, it was a fantasy-- I fully accept that.  There was a lot of role play and light s&m, but does that mean it wasn't genuine, too?  What is genuine sex supposed to be like?  If needs were being met on both sides, isn't that okay?  Isn't that the point?

I do understand that the sex was a performance-- both of us performed but we both also had a really good time and felt satisfied afterwards.  Sex made our relationship stronger and made us happier and kept us on the same page.  The problem arose when he gained some weight and didn't feel as comfortable having sex.  That plus other random BPD and coD problems.

Grim
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brenbabe
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2010, 11:06:11 AM »

2010,

your post was awakining to me. I was thinking about a time early on in my r/s with my ex when we had great sex one day, it was beautiful, actually very loving on the part of my BPD ex, seemed that he had let down his guard, opend up and was so loving in bed with me, the passion was intense also that particular day. After I noticed my ex was extra clingy , like he didnt want to leave. Was all over me after, hugging me kissing me, talking to me. I hadnt noticed him clinging to this extent before.

A day later I was scheduled to go on a business trip a few states away for one day. My ex knew about this trip in advance, I had discussed it with him. So I leave . Im away a few hours and he calls me and announces hes coming to my house. I said " honey I am away on business , I told you last week about this" . All of a sudden I could feel him pull away in the convo, like he was done with me. was so wierd because he knew about the trip and it was just for one day. Anyway I could sense he was done with me. I told him I would call him at bedtime to say goodnight as was a ritual with us, he said " Nevermind dont". Then I really knew he was done. I did try to call him that night and for the first time he didnt answer his phone. I went home and tried to call him , he wouldnt speak to me. This was the beginning of when he left me without a word on his part for three years. All because I went on a business trip he knew about in advance. I never understood that, but now it all makes sense.
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Chipmunk
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2010, 11:33:13 AM »

Excerpt
I wonder if maybe BPD with NPD per say makes them different sexually as opposed to just having BPD.

NPD = Narcissists need to feel appreciated and seek out admirers, but do not let their partners get too close. They are afraid it will dilute their grandiosity. They use partners like show ponies to support their egos and then devalue and discard them when the partner doesn't respond as the narcissist wishes. Consequently, Narcissists consider themselves lone wolves on the prowl, even when they are with someone. They fear emotional intimacy and dont like people to get too close. Kissing and Sex is mechanical much like masturbation with a blow-up doll. Generally the act is choreographed and self serving to the Narcissist. When Borderlines and Narcissists meet in bed, the results are competitive and self serving to each other's needs. Narcissists love Borderlines because Borderlines perform for the Narcissists benefit.

BPD with NPD false front. This is the conundrum for many therapists- as many Borderlines appear to be egotistical at first meeting. They may try to lead people to believe that they are pulled together big time- but upon closer inspection, the Borderline traits appear as needy and clinging. Behaviors do not lie. This person is a Borderline masquerading as a Narcissist. Sex will be used to cling. Narcissists do not cling- they subsume.

Borderline. True Borderline behaviors during sex are masochistic. The disorder comes out in self perpetuating bondage. Sado/masochistic traits are what Borderline is all about. Punishing, punitive, controlling- these functions come out in sex play. The greatest clue to Borderline personality disorder is the need to be punished during sex. Male or Female Borderline- same difference.

Excerpt
Incidentally what does it reveal about ourselves when we define the most satisfying sexual encounter as "porn star quality"---knowing fully well that the entire porn is acting.

We hold a fake performance as the ultimate gold standard of purity.  This is quite immature on our part isn't it?  And yet; we the children;  find the loved ones with BPD as "childlike".

We know that porn is a fairy tale.  It is a made up thing.  And yet, we hold it to be an "ideal".

This is an important statement. The reward behaviors that Borderlines seek for valuation are in the reactions and responses of their partners.  Ever wonder if you show Borderline traits? Ask yourself if you get your valuation from performing in bed. Then ask yourself if you need validation for it afterward. It's as though the Borderline seeks out an appreciative audience but the quality of reward that's received in this manner does not matter so much as quantity. It's compulsive. The sex act might be over, but not the talk.  In a way, this is not a desire for sex- it is a need, but the neediness is much like a compulsive problem with prostitution as the answer.

Prostituting themselves makes them feel bad- they want to be punished and shamed because that's the part time self that lives in their mind, so they return to compulsively try to fix the shame by doing it better and better, i.e, porn star style. It's never enough to feel better about themselves, to stop the neediness, and being treated like a prostitute only makes them eventually angry- so the Borderline avoids closure by moving on and seeking reward elsewhere. Borderlines continue to walk the streets of life searching for new opportunities to offer themselves up for protection and punishment.  Remember, Borderline has two part time selves, good and bad. If good and bad arouse you- then we are talking S&M. A Borderline will expect it and submit to it for your approval.

Many people hold out sex as the one activity where they could be themselves with the Borderline, but the reality of this is more sinister- you see, sex was where both of you held your reward systems intact in fantasy. Porn star sex can last 4 hours, but unfortunately, that leaves the reality of another 20 hours left in the day to cause anxiety.

The Borderline pendulum swings away from you when you stop having sex. Do you see how this can be a problem? And if sex is used so successfully by the Borderline to attach to people- then certainly you're in trouble when your partner's perception of you is that you've withdrawn and have now moved away- (even if its just to the corner store for milk.)  Borderlines are like empty buckets with holes in the bottom- you fill them up and nothing keeps. Everything drains out and the bucket needs filling again. They are aware of this neediness and punish themselves (self-harm = cutting, drinking, piercing, pinching, plucking, shopping, anxiety, insomnia etc.)- but most prefer that you work out their punishment in bed. That way they can get both reward and punishment at the same time.  And yes, it's sad- especially if you thought it was manageable.

Eventually you'll come to see that your own desires and needs were projected upon the Borderline and you'll find out what that projection was when you look back and see where the valuation begins. Did you want a submissive, or maybe a sex slave? Follow the reward. Then ask yourself why you thought that this person you projected upon would feel anything but punished and used for sex. Much like a prostitute.  It's a disorder. It's not going away unless they stop compulsively doing the reward valuations. Unless they can replace it with something else, sex will be a huge motivator, especially for the partner.  When you are disengaging from this dysfunctional dance- it's important to un-romanticize the sex and call it for what it was- manipulated fantasy Idea

Amazing.  WOW!  Thank you for this information.  I'm so happy that I've found this site.  I've been miserable with this person for almost two years.  He's been using sex as a weapon.  When I met him I was having issues with sex from a previous relationship.  I explained to him that a former boyfriend and I disagreed on the frequency of sex.  But when I met my BPD boyfriend the frequency was incredible.

I have one concern... .its mentioned that they physically hurt themselves.  This is the one trait I don't see within him at all. But I've been very suspicious of one thing... .he suffers from constant rectal bleeding because he doesn't drink enough water and he goes to the doctor about it often.  I was worried that he might be gay but now I'm wondering if he's actually hurting himself.  Understand ex was never diagnosed with this disorder... .I've concluded on my own this is what he has.  Any advice?
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Fubar
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2010, 11:40:57 AM »

Cutting and suicidal behavior aren't universal.  They are part of the symptom set that MAY occur.

My uBPDw has done no cutting, not threatened suicide, and definitely has never demonstrated the sexual behaviors described in this thread.

But she exhibits many other traits.

Also, someone may exhibit traits without being diagnosible.

It really seems that there's tremendous variety among pwBPD, but tremendous similarity among those they touch.
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2010
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2010, 05:21:17 PM »

Excerpt
Cutting and suicidal behavior aren't universal.  They are part of the symptom set that MAY occur.

My uBPDw has done no cutting, not threatened suicide, and definitely has never demonstrated the sexual behaviors described in this thread.

Sex is only one form of reward- it is also one that is withdrawn in a marriage so that the spouse is tested as far as abandonment issues. Clinging behaviors and acting out behaviors move back and forth on a pendulum. If you are still married, the abandonment issues have not been tested.  Self harm punishment may come out in others ways such as hypochondria- (aches and pains that are hard to diagnose) and obsessive compulsive behaviors that are "rules and regulations" that must be adhered to.

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brenbabe
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2010, 07:34:26 PM »

Can a borderline sense if he meets someone thats also a borderline? Can he or she sense the traits ?  If so are the dynamics of an intimate relationship the same as if just one had the disorder or do the dynamics change if both people have borderline?
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Undertowed
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2010, 08:45:32 PM »

Eventually you'll come to see that your own desires and needs were projected upon the Borderline and you'll find out what that projection was when you look back and see where the valuation begins. Did you want a submissive, or maybe a sex slave? Follow the reward. Then ask yourself why you thought that this person you projected upon would feel anything but punished and used for sex. Much like a prostitute.  It's a disorder. It's not going away unless they stop compulsively doing the reward valuations. Unless they can replace it with something else, sex will be a huge motivator, especially for the partner. When you are disengaging from this dysfunctional dance- it's important to un-romanticize the sex and call it for what it was- manipulated fantasy Idea

I don't get why 2010 as well as a few other posters keep saying that the other posters have romanticized the memory of sex with the ex and were involved in a manipulated fantasy.  I didn't see posts that described fantasies of them being submissive or dominant or playing a role.  I'm not seeing romantic fantasy.  I think you may be reading something extra into the other posters experiences.  Doing what they do in bed isn't accompanied with a declaration or implication that they will be your fantasy.   Posters have mentioned very varied experiences from withholding to going beyond the pale.  If BPDs were filling fantasies there wouldn't be mixed reviews.  They may be more intense during sexual activity but that's not the same as working to fill the non partners fantasies.  Certainly in my case my ex had requests and took them as well.  It wasn't a fantasy performance just hunger being fed until we dropped and weren't hungry anymore.  I mean it sounds like you're saying BPDs have no real sex drive and only have sex to meet a need they assume we have.  I'm not really seeing that across the board.  I can believe some BPDs function this way but not all.

Any experts care to weigh in, give us some stats or something?  Ah, found some info at

Patients with the Borderline Personality Disorder and the Dependent Personality Disorder both suffer from abandonment and separation anxieties and are clinging, demanding, and emotionally labile - but their sexual behavior is distinguishable. The borderline uses her sexuality to reward or punish her mate. The dependent uses it to "enslave" and condition her lover or spouse. The borderline withholds sex or offers it in accordance with the ups and downs of her tumultuous and vicissitudinal relationships. The codependent tries to make her mate addicted to her particular brand of sexuality: submissive, faintly masochistic, and experimental.

Read more: www.disabled-world.com/disability/sexuality/personality-disorders.php#ixzz17frKhHN9   

Patients with the Borderline Personality Disorder and the Dependent Personality Disorder both suffer from abandonment and separation anxieties and are clinging, demanding, and emotionally labile - but their sexual behavior is distinguishable. The borderline uses her sexuality to reward or punish her mate. The dependent uses it to "enslave" and condition her lover or spouse. The borderline withholds sex or offers it in accordance with the ups and downs of her tumultuous and vicissitudinal relationships. The codependent tries to make her mate addicted to her particular brand of sexuality: submissive, faintly masochistic, and experimental.

Read more: www.disabled-world.com/disability/sexuality/personality-disorders.php#ixzz17frKhHN9

It says BPD use sex to reward or punish the mate by withholding or giving him or herself.  They aren't enacting a fantasy or doing S&M.  Dependent Personality Disordered people do S&M and try to get their mate addicted.  HPDs leverage their bodies for narcissistic supply.  NPDs use other people's bodies to masturbate themselves.
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2010
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2010, 04:00:30 PM »

Excerpt
The borderline uses her sexuality to reward or punish her mate. The dependent uses it to "enslave" and condition her lover or spouse. The borderline withholds sex or offers it in accordance with the ups and downs of her tumultuous and vicissitudinal relationships. The codependent tries to make her mate addicted to her particular brand of sexuality: submissive, faintly masochistic, and experimental.

Sam’s writing is brilliant at times, especially when he writes about NPD, (which is what he is an expert on.) Yes, Borderline and Dependent are very similar- and there is a third category called inverted narcissism.  All can be considered masochistic, but only one is really sadistic, and that is Borderline.  All three are showing you how they were treated as children.  That doesn't mean that they dont have sex drives- it's just that they use sex as weapons to secure themselves a place in the World.

Dependents are the nicest, most compliant people in the World. Some might say they are gluttons for punishment, but they do not withdraw from people. They need to be needed and they move unfailingly in the direction of people who are needy. They are vulnerable narcissists who take their value from managing others. Unfortunately, they need *needy* people to feel better about themselves. Once they are in the fight, they are all in and they stay put to try to control it.  They do not try to run away, which makes them appear masochistic to others. They are managerial in style- with the predominant thinking that if “I take care of you, you’ll take care of me.” They experiment sexually only to please their partner, but it is their partner’s decision, not the dependents.

Borderlines have the masochistic part time self already installed. You see, BPD is all about persecution- and the expectations of being persecuted. If you had to narrow the sexual relationship down to a working hypothesis, it would be - Seductive mirroring, attaching, then clinging- which results in anxiety to offset the masochistic anger they feel about being controlled and used for sex. Their inability to self-soothe at their core and subsequently, the emotions that rise to the surface are a release of tension with acting out behaviors – The pendulum swings back and forth in dysregulation.

These emotions get attention at first, but after every crisis is over the emotions return again. Borderline is two part time selves. Now the emotions are compulsive and triggered by intimacy- and it’s no longer good. Et Voila’ you have the romantic partner turned into a de facto hypercritical, clinging parent who persecutes in the mind of the Borderline. They are back in Bondage again just like in childhood.

 

Since BPD thrives on triangulation (read definition), it’s only a matter of time before a third party is sought for reward simultaneously with the current relationship.  *The Borderline expects to be punished* and will set up a positive intent with a negative outcome to ensure this happens. The romantic partner is merely a stand-in cipher for a punitive parent that lurks deep in her psyche.  That hypercritical parent exists in their mind and delivers a lethal dose of sadism- not only to the Borderline himself but also to the person that the Borderline projects blame towards.

The difference between the BPD and DPD is similar to a remora fish and a barnacle. The barnacle is going to stay put until it’s peeled off. The remora has already moved on. Both need to become free agents, but lack the ability to stand on their own. It’s is disordered thinking and at the center of it all is the offering of sex.

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pallavirajsinghani
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2010, 06:32:25 PM »

This is in addition to 2010's insightful posts on this thread:

I just learnt today that the brainscan of women during orgasm shows that the parts of the brain that control Emotion and Fear are shut down.

It was unclear to me whether or not it is the same for Men.

However, this also would explain some of the sexual behavior of the BPD sufferer.
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2010, 06:14:23 PM »

it was 5-8 times a day.  I was amazed a man had my appetite. 

Chipmunk, let's get married.



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WhyKnot
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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2010, 06:34:10 PM »

Borderlines have the masochistic part time self already installed. You see, BPD is all about persecution- and the expectations of being persecuted. If you had to narrow the sexual relationship down to a working hypothesis, it would be - Seductive mirroring, attaching, then clinging- which results in anxiety to offset the masochistic anger they feel about being controlled and used for sex. Their inability to self-soothe at their core and subsequently, the emotions that rise to the surface are a release of tension with acting out behaviors – The pendulum swings back and forth in dysregulation.

This fits my experience perfectly, and explains so much.  My ex would seduce me endlessly, exhaustively.  If I ever hinted that I didn't want sex, she would say she would get it somewhere else, until I relented.  Then, later, she would rage at me for using her for sex, claiming it was all I wanted from her, even though I told her countless times that we could continue our relationship without sex if that's truly how she felt.
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