Is healing/recovery from codependence and BPD pretty much the same?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

It sounds like we suffer the same, emptiness, not understanding our feelings, bad childhood, fear of abandonment, fear of intimacy.  Seems the main difference is we try to understand what they are feeling, but they couldn't care less what we are feeling.

[Annaleigh]

It sounds like we suffer the same, emptiness, not understanding our feelings, bad childhood, fear of abandonment, fear of intimacy.  Seems the main difference is we try to understand what they are feeling, but they couldn't care less what we are feeling.

[Blossom]

I'd say ... .no. All right, i'm not had issues with codependency but from what i've read, i can't see major similarities. Therapy benefits both, but recovery from BPD requires specific and intensive therapy over a period of years. BPD requires emotional rewiring.

It seems a little like saying the recovery from a bout of depression is the same as recovering from Clinical Depression. There may be similarities but they're not the same. I've been having a look at Dependant Personality Disorder, and i can see a couple of points which seem like the polar opposite of BPD (not strange considering it's not actually the same cluster of PDs).

But then again, i don't have an indepth knowledge of codependency issues or DPD. So i'm just speculating.

[Lost in Wonderland]

You are absolutely right!    I agree with you... .I'm no expert but I will throw in my 2 cents...

Co-dependency in my understanding is being needed... .You are dependent on someone else being dependent on you... whether physically or emotionally (someone correct me if I interpret this incorrectly)... I believe those (at least I feel this)  have a strong desire to please... .(for fear of not being liked or loved.)  We feel we have to PROVE we are worthy of someones love.  This causes us to enable someone to (for lack of a better discription) "take advantage of or manipulate" us.

BPD have a hard time dealing with emotions... all they can see is their pain... what is hurting them.  This makes them seem selfish and uncaring.  I believe they do care, but they have no idea how to show it... .all they can think about is me me me... and how they feel at that moment... .

They want you to "validate" them ... their feelings. say (or know) that they are right... no matter what, because in their head... they are.

Both issues have the I can fix it mantality... .it's just in different ways... .

With Co-dependency we try to fix the problem by helping them... changing ourselves to make THEM feel better.  In co-dependency ppl tend to make others ppls feelings more important then their own.

With BPD they try to fix the problem by making YOU change and making you feel entitled to serve them... .In BPD... they are only concerned with themselves.

maybe this is why so many ppl with Co-depency issues get hooked up with BPD partners... .One's a giver and ones a taker... .but both are very unhealthy.   Or maybe... .being with someone with BPD for too long creates Co-dependency? HUM  ?  

Both take a lot of self evaluation and self truth to recover from.  

[T2H]

BPD and codependency are opposite sides of a similar coin.  Many people with issues need to feel needed - pwBPD need to constantly feel unconditional love for example, among other things.  pwCD want to fix/control/change things - and need to feel the other person needs them.  There are a good # of differences, many are opposites - for example some with CD have trouble feeling their emotions whereas pwBPD feel them too strongly.  It would be like saying the recovery path for alcoholics and CDs is the same since they both have things to work on (some are related - that's why so many of those get together in a couple-type situation; but there's AA and then there's Al-Anon - because there are also significant differences).

Almost all of us - whether having BPD, CD, or something else - have things to work on.  Many times that involves balancing things that we've done (or felt) to the extreme (strongly or not strongly enough) and moving more towards the middle.  We all have our own paths.

[Annaleigh]

Learning to feel, what a concept.  While they are learning to tone down the feeling?  I wonder what that feels like, to feel something so intensely.  All the time.

I've felt great pain, total complete debilitating pain.  I've felt great joy, too.  Not constantly though, I mostly feel... .just empty.

This is going to be hard, isn't it?  To stop using all the compensatory things I've used to avoid feeling great pain.

How long will I feel empty and to start feeling like a person should that is normal?

[T2H]

I've felt empty before too - in the past - for brief periods of time.  Haven't for quite a while now.  I talked about this with my exBPDgf and it seemed like something we had in common at first - but then it became increasingly clear that it was something completely different for both of us.

Why do you think you feel empty?  What would be needed to fill that (longer term)?  Are you looking for meaning/purpose in your life?  Can you try new/different things?  Were there times in your life you didn't feel that way?  What was different?

[sarah1234]

I am not sure if I am co-dep or not, I suspect I may well be with a healthy dose of  my-issuesfrom pd's within my family also

I haven't felt as empty or needing to be needed since I have refocused on my children, more than giving my all to men and relationships but I often wonder where on earth life would have taken me if I didn't have them or how people feel in the same situation who do not have children to focus on.

[Annaleigh]

I've felt empty before too - in the past - for brief periods of time.  Haven't for quite a while now.  I talked about this with my exBPDgf and it seemed like something we had in common at first - but then it became increasingly clear that it was something completely different for both of us.

Why do you think you feel empty?  What would be needed to fill that (longer term)?  Are you looking for meaning/purpose in your life?  Can you try new/different things?  Were there times in your life you didn't feel that way?  What was different?

Because when you are taught that your feelings aren't important, you learn to dismiss them, ignore them and then you forget having them.

Learning to be ok with being lonely, conquering lonliness.

Yes.

Probably when I stop feeling so depressed, tired, uninterested in everything.

I felt pretty good with my husband.  But I suppose that was unhealthy.  I felt good when he treated me well.  Being blindsided is hard, having your world turned upside down, really hard.

I suppose learning how to be by myself and being ok with it, is the goal now.  Not too excited about it.  :)oesn't sound fun.  I'm been alone for so much of my life.  Now I can feel something.  Sadness.

[T2H]

Sorry   It's a tough thing to go through.  xoxox

I've found that the more one embraces the pain, the more one can learn from it and make changes to make the future brighter.  Of course that possibility doesn't make it any easier at the time... .

It will pass though.  And things will be better.  In the meantime, lots of good people here to lean on for support.

[Annaleigh]

Thank you.    Change is not easy.  Sometimes it's a good thing.  :hug

[2010]

Because when you are taught that your feelings aren't important, you learn to dismiss them, ignore them and then you forget having them.

Generally this sort of statement is all you need to begin self discovery. People vent about their surface relationships, but the deeper, core issues of compliance are what needs to be addressed. As children, the analysis of our parents began from birth. We studied, witnessed, side stepped and otherwise complied with behaviors that were inconsistently consistent. Our reaction formations to these behaviors determined our place in the World.  Knowing that we had some control over those parents actions made us feel secure but with that security came the anxiety from our need to belong and the worry that it would be taken away.

Our need to belong and get along with others is based on the compliance of our reactions to others actions.  We are social creatures. We need to belong. But for the most part we are taught how to get along based on childhood dynamics. Is it any wonder that we choose relationship dynamics that we are most familiar with? These are the roles we've been playing since childhood.  

Borderlines are needy and clinging and find partners that are caring, thoughtful, and compliant.  These surface behaviors mask compulsive dependency behavior that's egocentric to altruism. Having a rescuer can be beneficial for both parties as they mimic each other. Borderlines need a host and dependents (vulnerable narcissists) need someone to tell them they are wonderful.  :)ependents are the perfect hosts as they take their source of pride from being capable. Unfortunately, being with a Borderline partner brings everything to a head as the Borderline swings back and forth in pendulum like emotions. It's there that the false self of childhood comes crashing down on both parties. It's also where an identity crisis occurs for the dependent. The capable person they once were is now incapacitated, but with insight will survive and become a true self. That's when the dependent finds their voice.  

None of this is really about the present- it's about the past- and it's about finally overcoming the false self that was built for others and created to survive.

[Travis]

I know I am co dependent.  I have a big hole in me and my life now that she is gone.  Yes, I don't have to go through the rages, the abuse, the stupid arguments over NOTHING, the accusations, etc.  Yes, its peaceful, but its also empty and lonely.  I don't have many friends anymore as she forbid me to see some of them because they didn't like her as they had witnessed her abuse.  She forbid me to see my friends and I ALLOWED that to appease her.  I was not allowed any contact to this married couple.  If I got an email from them she would rage at me, especially if I didn't tell her I got one and deleted it.

Why are they so controlling and manipulative, then accuse you of that?  I need to fix myself.  I am so lazy now, sitting around drinking in my bath robe, trying to make sense of it all and trying to justify contacting her a trying to fix her. 

[Annaleigh]

"it's about finally overcoming the false self that was built for others and created to survive"

Yes, it's the childhood trauma/wound that drives us to abusers.  Vulnerable Narcissist.  There's a label.  And here I thought I was a giving, caring about others type.  But it was to feed some sort of narcissicism?  Interesting.  I help others to feel good.  That is my false self?

That if my husband got into treatment and got better, that would make me feel better.

Ok, I'm tangling stuff up.  Not saying it right.

[innerspirit]

So, do you think it depends on introspection and sense of accountability, to break the denial in a substantial way?  A challenge on both sides, but maybe the Co-D has somewhat more willingness/capacity to go there.

It might boil down to the words healing and recovery, vs. the compulsion to project.

[Annaleigh]

"but with insight will survive and become a true self. That's when the dependent finds their voice."

I certainly feel like I'm at ground zero.  Becoming a true self. 

Need some sort of road map... .

[seeking balance]

my exBPDso announced she was codependent, that was her problem.  This was after a stint at The Meadows.  From watching her, I realized that codependent was a label that she could give to give her a sense of self.  Codependency is putting others needs ahead of your own best interest - others are more worthy (rudimentary definition, i know).  If you think about a pwBPD not having a self, then the label codependent for them is much safer than having a true mental illness.

Recovery: 

Codependency recovery is identifying the shame based triggers where we put others feelings/needs ahead of our own.  Recovery generally involves understanding our self worth.

Recovery from BPD involves shame, but at a much deeper level. The triggers are so great that they cannot even identify what/when/where it is happening.  The dbt recovery for this requires a much more mindful process of "rewiring" the brain.

The best description that I had seen was from Tami Green on youtube when she talked about how her T's for years told her she was codependent and not BPD.  Only after she finally got a diagnosis of BPD and proper treatement (dpt) did she recover and now has no symptoms.  But she did years of 12 step and other therapy for codependency first.

[King1989]

Therapy... .I wouldn't want to do therapy because I never had a therapist during the relationship and I didn't have one after I broke up with her back in October, so it'd feel kind of weird to me just goig to a therapist and saying "I got out of a relationship with a BPD"


I don't know that codependency is anything like BPD, I know that I was afraid of developing it for a while, but my best friend, who sufferes from a very serious depression issue and has studied BPD (I believe she's vying to be a counselor), has said time after time I shouldn't worry about that and I definitely don't have anything like BPD, but I do have PTSD.   Now the symptoms of PTSD did remind me a bit of BPD, so I'm guessing that's what might be similar at all, if anything is.

[innerspirit]

Therapy... .I wouldn't want to do therapy because I never had a therapist during the relationship and I didn't have one after I broke up with her back in October, so it'd feel kind of weird to me just goig to a therapist and saying "I got out of a relationship with a BPD"

... .I do have PTSD.   Now the symptoms of PTSD did remind me a bit of BPD, so I'm guessing that's what might be similar at all, if anything is.

Please know that there is no shame in pursuing therapy, regardless of when you decide to do it.  The after-effects of these BPD relationships can last a lot longer than others, they shake us up in some intense ways.  We're so busy spinning around from all the manipulation that the BPD/NON patterns don't become clear til we've been out of the r/s for a while.  The lack of closure is more challenging too, it can be a dark time to walk through.  But the good news is that we often grow by means of deeper insights about ourselves. 

A good therapist can serve as the perceptive listener who has seen such patterns before.  And that may help you if your PTSD feels heightened since the breakup.

[King1989]

True, but as for now, I don't even have money for a therapist... .Guess I am my own therapist, heh

[innerspirit]

True, but as for now, I don't even have money for a therapist... .Guess I am my own therapist, heh

I did a whole lot of therapy while with X and after the breakup.  Then I found that a group format was a lot more helpful, less expensive too.

Also some of the best help I've EVER received has been right here on these boards.  Take as much advantage of it as you wish -- it's powerful.  We're not therapists to each other, for sure, but the situations are so similar that there is great support and feedback, and pretty close to 24/7.

[King1989]

Yeah, these boards have really been a great help to me in recent times. Even when I had been ready to leave her, the encouragement and help was very helpful then. Before and after that, and the recovery should be going well enough I hope

[Marcie]

Very insightful lots of food for thought I need to go chew on

[Penguinectomy]

I haven't felt as empty or needing to be needed since I have refocused on my children, more than giving my all to men and relationships but I often wonder where on earth life would have taken me if I didn't have them or how people feel in the same situation who do not have children to focus on.

What's going to happen when your kids get older and don't need you so much anymore?  And when they grow up and leave?  Substituting one focus of need for another just delays dealing with the emptiness and need to be needed, IMO.  I just am concerned that you're going to really suffer once your children get a little bit older.  It also makes it harder to react to their normal developmental need for independence without hurt and fear. 

[Annaleigh]

Grand children.  Now you know why they're doted on. 

[damask]

Anna, some of what you are talking about, "not feeling", sounds like dissociation. Kind of a numbing, or almost out of body feeling.  Are you familiar with that one?  A survival tool from bad childhoods, but also in it's milder forms, pretty common w/us all.  (like when you drive from A to B and suddenly you're there with no memory of the terrain... .oops.?)

I find I dissociate still, not just in the very mild common forms.  Sometimes, after a bad argument, I feel like I am just a distant star... .drifting... .