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Author Topic: Once and for all the fact is THEY DON'T CARE  (Read 2953 times)
blueyedguy
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« on: December 19, 2010, 11:30:19 PM »

They suffer from the deepest form of toxic shame which has left them hating themselves, left them having no clue who themselves even is. They are incapable of real love, that is compassion and caring unconditionaly for someone. They were a fake at the start and real at the end. The end showed us they don't care about us, they never will. We can sit and pine away over them and what we think we are missing and how could they just turn on us, well folks it's because they don't give a S***. They can't. In the current state of their mind they are incapable of caring.

They are not sitting brooding of what is lost. They are more than likely already well into the fake beginning with some other sucker.

You will never get closure, thats for healthy thinking people who end a relationship. All you can do is promise yourself you will never let another one like them anywhere near your heart. Trust your gut everytime from now on.

Were wasting precious time mourning and missing and crying over a completely fake relationship on their part. They are now most likely in another fake relationship. They are on an endless journey to erase that huge amount of pain inside caused by that mountain of toxic shame that consumes them. You can't change that and the next 100 people they get involved with won't change it. Only themselves and some serious therapy can. They were taught early on by parents or abuse or abandonment that they are worthless and thats as heavy a burden as one can bear. You and I were never gonna fix that for them.
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Disgruntled
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« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2010, 11:46:45 PM »

Love it!  Blue is on the money.  I went nc when I finally decided I was NEVER going to let her emotionally hurt me EVER again.  Blue is right, they are not sitting around thinking about you and how to fix things... .they are undoubtedly  with someone else and if they are anything like mine... .they are telling new SO how horrible you were.  Go NC... .do not allow them to hurt you ever again!
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blueyedguy
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 12:05:59 AM »

You and I are only regarded by them for how we are making them feel. We are not being regarded for the person we are.

Everything to them is how they feel at that moment.
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FoolishOne
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 12:42:52 AM »

You know before I even knew that BPD existed (which has only been about a month)... .I honestly coldn't fathom how incredibly selfish andself-centered my stbxBPDw was.  I was amazed at how she couldn't take accountabilty for even the smallest things.  She was literally never wrong... .and if I tried to hold her feet to the fire, she would lash out like a viper.

Of course, if I would have known about her mental illness, I could have approached things a whole lot differently, but in the end... .it really is better for me to be apart from her... .I mean who really wants to be walking on eggshells for the rest of their life?  What kind of life is that?  You will always be wrong... .you will always be verbally abused... .you will suffer through multiple affairs (or you will lose years off your life expectancy with eternal suspicion)... .and you will never have the peace, safety and comfort of a happy and loving relationship.

In the end... .it honestly just isn't worth it.  It is sad that these people that we have loved are afflicted with such a horrible illness... .it ruins lives... .but selflessness only goes so far... .and eventually you have to do what is right for you (and your family)... .because no matter how much you may do for your pwBPD, it will never be appreciated and it will never be enough.
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2010
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 12:49:38 AM »

Excerpt
They are incapable of real love, that is compassion and caring unconditionaly for someone. They were a fake at the start and real at the end. The end showed us they don't care about us, they never will.

The have a different interpretation of real love. The earliest examples of love were skewed toward attachment and fusion. This involves emotions just like you have concerning love- but with the fantasy of being hosted (being taken care of) while not losing themselves in the process.  Borderline disorder is a thought that involves a compulsive re-action to intimacy. There is some PTSD involved in that thought.  There is an idea of being out of control and then becoming persecuted for it. The thought moves back and forth on a pendulum in the mind of grabbing on and letting go. It wasn't that they were thinking that they were going to be fake in the beginning- they were thinking that they would do anything to attach to you, including mirroring you. This wonderful, marvelous human being who rewarded them for "being" themselves- really, was a reflection of you. For what it's worth- you were VERY valuable in this regard.

Excerpt
They are not sitting brooding of what is lost. They are more than likely already well into the fake beginning with some other sucker.

They are sitting and brooding over their failures, but they are also aware of success, perhaps even more so to move on from the failures. It is a compulsive action, a thought disorder.  Borderline personality disorder is about persecution and the feeling of persecution undermines everything that they do. The only way to get beyond the feelings associated with previous relationships is to find new reward, new relationships. Borderline is a thought process that involves the fantasy of being kept safe from the persecution.  See how this works? The persecution comes from the previous relationship.

Excerpt
Were wasting precious time mourning and missing and crying over a completely fake relationship on their part. They are now most likely in another fake relationship. They are on an endless journey to erase that huge amount of pain inside caused by that mountain of toxic shame that consumes them. You can't change that and the next 100 people they get involved with won't change it. Only themselves and some serious therapy can. They were taught early on by parents or abuse or abandonment that they are worthless and thats as heavy a burden as one can bear. You and I were never gonna fix that for them.

They weren't taught that they were worthless. They were taught that in order to be honorable and valuable, they had to adhere to people to survive and they did that by mirroring for value. Once they are attached, they feel imprisoned and they rage against the control they perceive to be under. And they are under control- your control, which is based on the mirroring you received and now no longer are receiving.  You feel gypped. You feel cheated. You feel lied to. You feel that this person has manipulated you and you're right- they have. But they did that in order to survive a disorder that threatens them every day with anxiety and fear. It is a Goddawful way to live, but it is a hidden disorder and processed vaguely because of the strong responses they receive from their hosts that play back into the disorder that echoes childhood persecution. Each partner who is mirrored, valued and then devalued and discarded becomes a blanket of blame that substitutes for their earliest memories of childhood slavery. When the blanket becomes oppressive, it plays right into the disorder, which then causes the need for new rewarding objects to offset the depression.  It is a compulsion.  In adulthood, a Borderline can go through many, many partners to feel better, which only makes them feel more out of control and disorganized mentally and emotionally. That's why it is considered an emotional dysregulation disorder.

They do care. They want it to stop. They want love. They just dont know how to deal with the fear of annihilation and abandonment that swings back and forth in split seconds. That's how you got into the web. You were a child who saw things and asked how come? Why are these people so scared? The Borderline never detached from her Mother to get this perspective. She never had conflict resolution. Conflict resolution requires separateness. They were fused with Mother and not allowed to separate and individuate. Mother triangulated her child with the World. The World is a scary place. Because of this they now wander in life without the ability to solve conflict, and are following a fantasy- the fantasy to be attached without slavery as the outcome. Reality is left to the rest of us to understand as individuals.

Borderline thought is a compulsion. It is a disorder. It was not done to you personally although it may feel like it. It will never be resolved until the Borderline resolves their thinking and that may take decades. Wires are crossed and tangled in Borderline behaviors- and that's not your fault. That means your compassion has to begin with letting go of the outcome and relinquishing the control of the Borderline human being's actions and reactions. They must attach to people- they must escape from people. It's not your fault the relationship didn't work out. Never was your fault, never will be.

It is a disorder. Nothing personal will remain when you let go and realize that it's done to everyone. And that should be a great relief. Idea

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FoolishOne
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 12:55:08 AM »

Nicely put 2010.
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Travis
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 04:03:37 AM »

That sums it up nicely 2010.  Thanks a lot.
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GlennT
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 06:05:40 AM »

Yes so true, but only when they are through idealizing you. I have been strict no contact for over two years, and every once in a while I receive an email. I did'nt block her because then I'd wonder if she's dead. I guess I still do care PD traits . To her, I am only worth a sideline group email joke, or a hello twice a year. That is all. But I really think they respect us more deep down when we totally disengage.
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Always remember what they do:Idealize. Devalue. Discard.
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.~ Churchill
Mystic
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 08:56:33 AM »

Borderline thought is a compulsion. It is a disorder. It was not done to you personally although it may feel like it. It will never be resolved until the Borderline resolves their thinking and that may take decades. Wires are crossed and tangled in Borderline behaviors- and that's not your fault. That means your compassion has to begin with letting go of the outcome and relinquishing the control of the Borderline human being's actions and reactions. They must attach to people- they must escape from people. It's not your fault the relationship didn't work out. Never was your fault, never will be.

It is a disorder. Nothing personal will remain when you let go and realize that it's done to everyone. And that should be a great relief. Idea

Thanks for that, 2010.  I wish my broken heart could wrap itself around the concept that it wasn't my fault.  It's like I have to relearn this every single day and it's been months.  Some days I get it, some days not so much.  I guess maybe I do get it, but getting it doesn't make it better, doesn't leave me any less like a child crying for the moon.  I guess that's where my issues come into play.  If only I'd loved more (I don't think I could have), gave more (I gave all I had) , did more (I did my best) , said the right thing (I tried), didn't say the wrong thing, (I apologized), looked better (I was working on that), etc.,etc., etc.  Then maybe the person I loved enough to lay my life down for wouldn't hate me so, wouldn't have just about broken me in two in heart, mind, body and spirit, with his hatred and leaving. 

:'(

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left4good
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 09:22:17 AM »

I wish they made a book:  NPD/BPD for dummies... .

I need simple terms or a bigger vocabulary.

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Travis
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2010, 09:33:08 AM »

I wish they made a book:  NPD/BPD for dummies... .

Ha, yeah.  I wish I had known about this when it was earlier in the r/s with my BPDw.  I either could have helped her or ran.  I can't help being a rescuer though, so I'd probably have tried to help her anyway.
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restoredsight
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2010, 09:55:54 AM »

I wish they made a book:  NPD/BPD for dummies... .

I need simple terms or a bigger vocabulary.

Left

www.amazon.com/Borderline-Personality-Disorder-Dummies-Charles/dp/0470466537
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left4good
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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2010, 10:27:13 AM »

Are you flippin' kidding me?

WOW!

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Mystic
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2010, 10:36:26 AM »

OMG!   Smiling (click to insert in post)  Look, it's our new dating guide!  Forget Mars and Venus folks... .LOL
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turtle
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2010, 12:09:59 PM »

I need simple terms or a bigger vocabulary.

Left

Your vocabulary is just fine left - there are many single words that describe these kinds of people - a few expletives come to mind.  And the "terms" boil down to being quite simple.  NPD, BPD, Socio, whatever the PD du jour -- if someone continually treats you like ___, YOU are responsible for what you will put up with.

Turtle

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left4good
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2010, 12:14:31 PM »

Excerpt
Your vocabulary is just fine left - there are many single words that describe these kinds of people - a few expletives come to mind.  And the "terms" boil down to being quite simple.  NPD, BPD, Socio, whatever the PD du jour -- if someone continually treats you like ___, YOU are responsible for what you will put up with.

AHHHHH... .the ever-wise,  Turtle.   Smiling (click to insert in post)   You are so correct! 

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Undertowed
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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 04:58:19 AM »

Your vocabulary is just fine left - there are many single words that describe these kinds of people - a few expletives come to mind. 

Turtle

QFT=quoted for truth
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Travis
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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 09:06:41 AM »

OMG.  What is wrong with them? 
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left4good
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 09:44:51 AM »

I've seen it too!

Here's what's really hard to fathom!  I have 8 year old twin boys.  There's a scheduling conflict coming up and the mom and I were discussing possible ways to get them back and forth to school etc. etc.   It's only for a month so it's certainly overcomeable.   

Her idea was to have her brother pick them up in the morning and afternoon and then I could go get them after work.  Not a problem except that there's a 30 minute gap in the morning where they'd be by themselves.  They're 8, they're boys,  they're twin boys,  and one has ODD.  My repsonse was uhhh... .not a chance!  But here's the shocking thing that the boys talked about. 

They started talking about well this and this has to be done before uncle D gets here,  we've got to make sure our lunch is ready,  we can straighten our room so it's done,  make sure to lock doors... .

You get the idea.  Very logical,  very constructed thoughts on what should happen in the 30 minutes they have at the house.  If that scenario were to play out to any one of the BPDs that have passed thru my life... .UHHHHHHHHHHHHH   ?

Ridiculous

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Skip
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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 10:20:40 AM »

They suffer from the deepest form of toxic shame which has left them hating themselves, left them having no clue who themselves even is. They are incapable of real love, that is compassion and caring unconditionaly for someone. They were a fake at the start and real at the end. The end showed us they don't care about us, they never will. We can sit and pine away over them and what we think we are missing and how could they just turn on us, well folks it's because they don't give a S***. They can't. In the current state of their mind they are incapable of caring.

They are not sitting brooding of what is lost. They are more than likely already well into the fake beginning with some other sucker.

You will never get closure, thats for healthy thinking people who end a relationship. All you can do is promise yourself you will never let another one like them anywhere near your heart. Trust your gut everytime from now on.

We're wasting precious time mourning and missing and crying over a completely fake relationship on their part. They are now most likely in another fake relationship. They are on an endless journey to erase that huge amount of pain inside caused by that mountain of toxic shame that consumes them. You can't change that and the next 100 people they get involved with won't change it. Only themselves and some serious therapy can. They were taught early on by parents or abuse or abandonment that they are worthless and thats as heavy a burden as one can bear. You and I were never gonna fix that for them.

We are destined to repeat if we don't learn from these painful experiences.

That is our challenge here.  And it really is a challenge.

It is easy to say that "they" are all alike and evil and damaged.  And that we are mere victims.

But this is not the truth that will heal us or lead us to a better life.

The hard truth, blueeyedguy is that we (you and I) made bad choices.  And we need to learn why we did.

There were many bad choices here.  From the beginning and all the way through.  You chronicle many in your first few posts.  You knew they were bad choices.

Sure this relationship failure hurts.  This was your rebound relationship after 23 years of marriage - started before the divorce was final.  

Most rebound relationships end painfully.  Why?

Because we don't fully grieve and re-balance ourselves after our prior relationship.  This was a double dipper - she was doing the same - starting before her divorce was final, too.  Wow.

You are hurting badly.  I 've been there - we all have.   I don't want to add any pain to the deep hurt you already feel.  I wish I could make it go away.  I wish someone could have made it go away when I was hurting.

But there is a reason that we hurt. It is human response.  If we are weak - we run from it.  If we are strong, it drives us to learn.

As a brother in these tough life experiences, I encourage you to grieve and mourn.  Go through the painful phases... .all the way to the humbling last phase of self inventory.

It will make a huge difference in your life going forward.

And when you think about it - that's all we've got.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Skippy

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FoolishOne
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« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2010, 10:24:28 AM »

Good post Skip.
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Mystic
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« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2010, 12:07:55 PM »

It is easy to say that "they" are all alike and evil and damaged.  And that we are mere victims.

But this is not the truth that will heal us or lead us to a better life.

The hard truth, blueeyedguy is that we (you and I) made bad choices.  And we need to learn why we did.

I agree with this, and would take it a step further. 

Rather than call it a bad choice, I'd say we took a risk and lost. 

I knew there were issues with my exbf.  The warning signs were there and I saw them plain and clear.  He had unresolved issues with his psycho ex gf.  He had anger problems.  Yet at the same time I saw much good in him.  Qualities that I respected and admired.  Add to that the euphoria of the early days of the relationship and it was compelling.  I knew nothing of BPD, and basically believed we could work through any issues and move forward.  That is what people in love do... .they face life's challenges together and move forward. 

I placed the issues on the scale against the good qualities and thought that there the good outweighed the problems. 

I took a risk, I rolled the dice, and I lost.   

I didn't realize that the issues were the tip of the iceberg.  I didn't realize I was dealing with someone with serious issues, I didn't know about BPD.  This was an intelligent, seemingly capable man, who had been through some bad relationships.  Having been there myself, that didn't seem to be a dealbreaker.     

And I also saw a man who was struggling and clearly needed my help, clearly asked for it.  This person had professed love for me, asked him to marry him daily. 

And that was it, I was done for. 

I loved him, I believed in him, and when he asked for my help I was there for him. 

I do not see myself as a victim, I see myself a survivor.  A survivor of my own choices yes, and also a survivor of some pretty rotten behavior on his part.   I don't like the term victim especially when it becomes demeaning to the wronged party.  He did that a lot, any time he behaved badly and I objected, he accused me of playing the "victim" card.  To be dismissed as buying into some victim mentality after being bona fide mistreated in some way is really kind of like being "victimized" twice.  Kind of lets the abuser off the hook and turns the person on the receiving end of the damage into a whiner who for some reason brought their mistreatment on themselves. 

That's the sad thing.  In a relationship there is supposed to be TRUST.  The breach of that trust by one party to the relationship in a way that shows disrespect and disregard for the other party is wrong, is it not?  It is a breaking of trust.  My bad choices, errors in judgement, taking of risk, did come about as a matter of TRUST in another person who said he loved me, would care for me, would protect me, now and always. 

I don't know that I see him as evil and damaged.  Damaged yes, but the evil thing is a question mark for me. 

I know that he knows right from wrong, yet right and wrong became quite blurred for him when it came to "self".  Is that where evil lies?  When "self" at all costs is the prevailing motto? 

As you said, the important thing is to learn from this.  The most important thing I've learned is that words and promises mean nothing.  True judgement of character lies in carefully observing actions and behavior over *time* for consistency and morality. 

 

Trust must be based on this, not on words and promises.  There's my lesson. 

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FoolishOne
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« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2010, 12:56:21 PM »

Very well put Livia... .you get it... .I hope everyone else can get it too.  I like the verbage of "survivor" rather than "victim" as well.  We need to survive this escape and come out better for it.  To be a victim places such negativity on the recepient.  True, I feel victimized, lied to, deceived and cheated... .but to wallow around in self-pity as the victim only serves to place me in the same arean as the pwBPD... .they play the victim card quite well.

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« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2010, 02:05:39 PM »

Mine wasn't fake.  I think he tried very hard to attach himself to me at the beginning, but the love was actually, really there.  I wish I could just tell myself it was all a lie, but it wasn't.  He DID feel engulfed by the relationship after a while, as well as having abandonment issues.  Poor guy.  If he could have just talked to me about it, maybe we could have figured something out.  What wasn't tolerable was the abuse I had to suffer because of his conflicting emotions.  That was immoral and he knows that, even if he deflects and blames.

Again, YES-- BPs ARE capable of love, and they can feel in very deeply.  Not all of them, of course, but it makes no sense to say that none of them can love.  When I myself was at my worst with BPD, I could love, deeply and passionately.  It scared the living crap out of me.

Grim

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« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2010, 05:22:16 PM »

Grim:  I don't doubt one bit that you loved when you were BPD... .In fact, I would go so far as to say that it's possibly that many pwBPD love... .some in their own way... .but the illness by and large is one that lends itself to selfishness and denial.  Just like a flower will find a way to grow in a crack in the cement, love finds a way to emerge when the opportunity presents itself... .but the ingredients must be there... .adn stay there as well.  Selfishness and denial snuff the life out of relationships (regardless if it is BPD-related).

The very nature of the illness severly retards and impedes the opportunity for love to not only present itself within the pwBPD, but maintain itself.  The fear overrides them and the clouds darken their perception and all they can see mostly is the exit sign.

Where we nons lose it is when the pwBPD rejects our genuine attempts to love them unconditionally and seek "love" elsewhere... .when that occurs, the love we share becomes conditional and the relationship mettle becomes tested.

In the end... .as with all relationships... .it comes down to just how much sht can you put up with?  It doesn't mean you don't love someone anymore... .you can still love them and leave them for a whole host of valid reasons... .likewise pwBPD do the same.

In the same way that they can't see the pain that they inflict upon us, likewise, we don't see the pain they endure either... .but at the end of the day, if neither party is happy, it's time to pack rather than stick around for things to get progressively worse and end up on the 10:00 news.
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« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2011, 09:17:19 AM »

It is easy to say that "they" are all alike and evil and damaged.  And that we are mere victims.

But this is not the truth that will heal us or lead us to a better life.

The hard truth, blueeyedguy is that we (you and I) made bad choices.  And we need to learn why we did.

I agree with this, and would take it a step further. 

Rather than call it a bad choice, I'd say we took a risk and lost. 

I knew there were issues with my exbf.  The warning signs were there and I saw them plain and clear.  He had unresolved issues with his psycho ex gf.  He had anger problems.  Yet at the same time I saw much good in him.  Qualities that I respected and admired.  Add to that the euphoria of the early days of the relationship and it was compelling.  I knew nothing of BPD, and basically believed we could work through any issues and move forward.  That is what people in love do... .they face life's challenges together and move forward. 

I placed the issues on the scale against the good qualities and thought that there the good outweighed the problems. 

I took a risk, I rolled the dice, and I lost.   

I didn't realize that the issues were the tip of the iceberg.  I didn't realize I was dealing with someone with serious issues, I didn't know about BPD.  This was an intelligent, seemingly capable man, who had been through some bad relationships.  Having been there myself, that didn't seem to be a dealbreaker.     

And I also saw a man who was struggling and clearly needed my help, clearly asked for it.  This person had professed love for me, asked him to marry him daily. 

And that was it, I was done for. 

I loved him, I believed in him, and when he asked for my help I was there for him. 

I do not see myself as a victim, I see myself a survivor.  A survivor of my own choices yes, and also a survivor of some pretty rotten behavior on his part.   I don't like the term victim especially when it becomes demeaning to the wronged party.  He did that a lot, any time he behaved badly and I objected, he accused me of playing the "victim" card.  To be dismissed as buying into some victim mentality after being bona fide mistreated in some way is really kind of like being "victimized" twice.  Kind of lets the abuser off the hook and turns the person on the receiving end of the damage into a whiner who for some reason brought their mistreatment on themselves. 

That's the sad thing.  In a relationship there is supposed to be TRUST.  The breach of that trust by one party to the relationship in a way that shows disrespect and disregard for the other party is wrong, is it not?  It is a breaking of trust.  My bad choices, errors in judgement, taking of risk, did come about as a matter of TRUST in another person who said he loved me, would care for me, would protect me, now and always. 

I don't know that I see him as evil and damaged.  Damaged yes, but the evil thing is a question mark for me. 

I know that he knows right from wrong, yet right and wrong became quite blurred for him when it came to "self".  Is that where evil lies?  When "self" at all costs is the prevailing motto? 

As you said, the important thing is to learn from this.  The most important thing I've learned is that words and promises mean nothing.  True judgement of character lies in carefully observing actions and behavior over *time* for consistency and morality. 

 

Trust must be based on this, not on words and promises.  There's my lesson. 

This is a beautiful post Livi and it's the one thing my next relationship will have to have; genuine actions that display clearly a true commitment, not just words and romantic fantasies
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