Placing the blame of these relationships.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Lets up it then if pdq is ok with this.

Your partner flirts.. First reaction? First feeling? Where do you put the blame?

No one accepts blame thats what.. Pride comes before a fall all the time

[joop]

Lets up it then if pdq is ok with this.

Your partner flirts.. First reaction? First feeling? Where do you put the blame?

No one accepts blame thats what.. Pride comes before a fall all the time

[PDQuick]

OK guys, lets not make this personal, or make it a man versus woman thing. We are all adults here.

It wouldnt surprise me if all of the people who were coupled with men reacted to say that it was Jack's fault, and all of the people who were coupled with women to say it was Diane's. Truth is, it isn't anyones fault.

I have been bitten 13 times by dogs. I have to admit, when I see a strange dog, my butt puckers up so tight that I could make rice out of a piece of spaghetti. It doesn't mean the dogs are bad, but it just means I have had bad experiences with them. Its a trauma thing.

[nwpbroke]

Yes jack should of opened up to her, that is his blame.  But manipulation and triangulation (read definition) with another dude, its totally wrong on her part.

[sarah1234]

Code:

It is interesting that men place the blame upon the woman in the story straight away

I wonder if it would have been a different result if the story was the other way round

oh come on sarah, just replace the names the other way round. My take would have been the same if it was the other way.

We both know that in a r/s games like that lead to escalations no matter which party flirts.

More than one person related this situation to themselves instantly, and it came across their feelings of their ex cloud their perspective of other situations, easier to react with 'that is wrong' than looking a lot deeper into the reasons these things happen.

Sarah, this sounds like its hitting close to home with you as well. I do hafta ask, why is it "Man vs Woman" for you. What if Jack was short for Jacklene?

Not at all. I don't blame anyone and see it is a communication and understanding issue.

I wasn't meaning to make it personal, I meant it in the sense that although we have to learn from what we have been through and be cautious, we shouldn't let it become an instant reaction to make assumptions, ie. the opposite sex are not to be trusted etc.

[seeking balance]

OK - PDQ is trying to make  a much larger point and all of you are all getting caught in semantics.

This is not a male/female flirting BPD thing.

This is the fact that WE ARE ALL BROKEN TOYS.

Not one of us here is perfect at communication and as such, we all have hidden wounds, core issues or we would not be part of this support group.

By looking at different perspectives, we can stop assigning blame and start our healing towards acceptance.

Ok, bring it on - Alex, Joop, Sarah, Rocker, Brer?

[sixspeed]

None self examines when they are doing well, it takes something painful to start looking for the underlying reasons for these emotional dynamics.

Definitely true for me, but even further when partners are too afraid of loss to let each other know when the other is encroaching on an emotional boundary then one or both of them just might bust through it with a battering ram in a single action.

I had some opportunities to avoid real conflict in my relationship as well did my partner; sometimes it wasn't until someone's front door was knocked down and the mud was all over the carpets that we showed each other where the doorbell was. Only so many times one can replace the front door.

[nwpbroke]

OK - PDQ is trying to make  a much larger point and all of you are all getting caught in semantics.

This is not a male/female flirting BPD thing.

This is the fact that WE ARE ALL BROKEN TOYS.

Not one of us here is perfect at communication and as such, we all have hidden wounds, core issues or we would not be part of this support group.

By looking at different perspectives, we can stop assigning blame and start our healing towards acceptance.

Ok, bring it on - Alex, Joop, Sarah, Rocker, Brer?

so whats the answer, just realize all r/s are doomed due to human nature? 

[rocker99]

Look i get the broken toy thing. But WTH? there's no right and wrong? I've read a quote from here before "It's an explanation not and excuse"

[seeking balance]

so whats the answer, just realize all r/s are doomed due to human nature? 

wow - thats dark

no, just some toys with polish we can clean up and keep playing with. some we just have to let go of because they are too broken, thats all.

[seeking balance]

Look i get the broken toy thing. But WTH? there's no right and wrong? I've read a quote from here before "It's an explanation not and excuse"

I feel your anger & hurt, absolutely.

But how does it help you to blame her?

[PDQuick]

so whats the answer, just realize all r/s are doomed due to human nature? 

Oh good God no. Thats not what anyone is saying. Human nature is a beautiful thing, and relationships can thrive with human nature at the helm.

Relationships can be very trying. Add in several insecurities, and add fear into the mix, then the water starts getting hot. Keep adding in the levels of emotional immaturity that we see in the relationships that we are dealing with, well then, the water can boil out of the pot in a skinny minute.

What we need to learn here are what our weaknesses are, and what our insecurities are, and learn to either overcome them, or self soothe them. That way, we can be poised to be in a good, healthy relationship and enjoy the fruits of our labor.

[SlipKnot]

the point is that the road to true healing and a chance for something better than we have had is through understanding our role in the problems. i will be the first whose back gets up at the mention that my ex wasnt at fault, but i have to realize that i DID contribute in many ways. im not saying that my goals werent honorable or that she didnt throw a wrench into the works deliberately, but i did do things and say things and think things (and still do, though not so much) that were wrong for me. i degraded myself and threw gas on the flames and stubbornly insisted when all the indicators were that i should just bow out with as much dignity as i can and carry on with my life. i reacted badly many times and i stayed in an unhealthy relationship because i was afraid and yes, immature in the ways of love. and all of that was after i jumped into a relationship unprepared and mistook lust and infatuation for love and commitment. i dont like admitting my faults, but if i dont, i set myself up for more of the same, and i really dont think i can do more of the same. i want to go back to the way i used to be, when i approached each day with the idea that i would be a better man than i was yesterday. i cant do that without finding myself and i cant find myself if i dont look hard and objectively for the truth. i may not be proud of what i see down there sometimes, but i damn well will be proud of how it changes from here on in.

SK

[rocker99]

It doesn't help at all. The damage has been done. When we punish someone for commiting murder, does it bring back the victim? Of course not.

[PDQuick]

Nice SlipKnot, nice.

Rocker, are you saying that murder is never acceptable, under any circumstances?

[sarah1234]

OK - PDQ is trying to make  a much larger point and all of you are all getting caught in semantics.

This is not a male/female flirting BPD thing.

This is the fact that WE ARE ALL BROKEN TOYS.

Not one of us here is perfect at communication and as such, we all have hidden wounds, core issues or we would not be part of this support group.

By looking at different perspectives, we can stop assigning blame and start our healing towards acceptance.

Ok, bring it on - Alex, Joop, Sarah, Rocker, Brer?

I feel like I am quite here already.

I meant to bring up the subject of that it felt like jumping to instant conclusions - like PDQ's dog analogy. I feel it is important... well to me anyway. If I was walking around thinking men are untrustworthy and relating it to my ex, well then I am not being upfront about my role, what I have learnt and that would not help me with communication in the future.

The whole point of this was that there are 2 roles in this dance of dysfunction, instead of blame.

I think our experiences can certainly sour our perspectives. That is to be expected when you have been bitten and moving past that is quite liberating. I used to see traits of my ex all over the place and in other people , now with acceptance that is lessening

Slipknot puts very nicely how I feel too

[joop]

Folks i understand what we are trying to do here, honestly i do but this is the real world, we dont have a check list of , self esteem bondary tick, self worth boundary tick, etc etc.. Of course we made mistakes in the r/s and we will make them again , wether it be communication or blame or whatever.

All i need to remember is what i allowed to happen last time to myself, what is the one thing we all ignored, all of us? What is the it in you that is your alarm bell which we silenced?

GUT INSTINCT! Isnt that what we go with next time and this time listen to?

As for blame.. Well i will hold my hands up and say yep i messed up but at the end of the day we didnt hold a gun to our partners heads and force them to do or say what they did... Christ almighty people , our partners illness or not are adults.. They chose to do what they do just as we chose to stay

[Brer Rabbit]

But WTH? there's no right and wrong?

My point is...NO THERE ISNT A RIGHT AND WRONG. Right and wrong are subjective words in the English language...purely based on perspective. Especially RIGHT...usually used as a directional word vs left...ENTIRELY PERSPECTIVE BASED.

Lets take "Murder is unacceptable in ALL instances" example as I think that "flirting" may have hit too close to home for some.

Murder is against the law right? Of what country? Of what state? Are there circumstances where murder is more acceptable...yep SELF-DEFENSE in the US anyway. Who made those laws...why...who decided that it was wrong to kill? Arent there canabalistic cultures...theyre murdering arent they?

Now, lets apply the same LOGIC to Diane's flirting...who decided it was wrong for Diane to flirt...why...who made up that "law". Is there no circumstances where flirting is acceptable? Oh...wait...arent there polygamistic cultures out there...yeah I think there are. In fact, just to keep it "sexism" free...there are even women lead polygamies.

So, following the logic here...since right and wrong are subjective words...so is blame. Blame is purely based on perspective.

This is as philisophical as I am getting today...it is the same as the difference between FACT and TRUTH. We were given FACTS in the beginning...and our own TRUTHS lead us to right and wrong. Read the Declaration of Independence..."...we hold these TRUTHS to be self evident..."

Only we can decide what is true for ourselves and we cannot create a truth for someone else. And if we walk around assigning blame what good does that accomplish? Isnt that victimhood mentality?

[PDQuick]

You got it.

[rocker99]

This is ridiculous. Most of us that are on here were manipulated and lied to repeatedly. That's not wrong? Get your head out of the clouds.

Why? Cause It's not wrong in their sick minds?

[PDQuick]

First of all, breathe Rocker. No one is here to prove themselves better than anyone, or attacking anyone. This is just a discussion on the dynamics of a relationship, specifically a relationship with a disordered person.

I'm no different than any of you. I was lied to, manipulated, cheated on more times than the local walmart has condoms to count.

Lets open up this discussion with injecting "Free Will". We all have the free will to do whatever we feel like that we want to, and society has laws to govern what we can, and can not do. We are still able to do what we want, but we have to understand that there are consequences for certain actions. After all, we are still innocent until proven guilty.

It is within a disordered persons free will to lie and manipulate, if they choose to do so. We are helpless to stop them in their efforts. All we can do is erect boundaries, and if those are crossed, execute a consequence that will send a message that the actions will not be tolerated by us, as individuals. This is where we get into trouble, because we are focusing on our own wants and needs, that we are having met, that we forget about the consequences for actions part. We feel internally that we can correct their behavior by loving them, or doing for them. In short, what we end up doing, is enabling the very behavior that we are trying to eliminate.

There is no prison for common lying, and there are no laws against emotional manipulation. It is up to the individual to protect themselves, and choose their friends, and relationship partners. Again, most of us are not taught the ways that these dynamics work, and how to resolve them, so we are left to figure them out on our own accord, which, as you can see, can be very emotionally devastating.

Most of us had no idea what a boundary is, or positive reinforcement, or intermittent reinforcement. We simply weren't educated in these things. This lack of education, or emotional immaturity, hinders our abilities to have a healthy relationship, and leaves us prone to dysfunctional ones.

Rest assured, these people who are cunning liars and manipulators, run into people everyday who will decide very quickly to choose to not have any type of relationship with them, simply because they see the problems right off the bat, where we let those red flags fly right on past us, because we had different ideas of how these things worked.

These lessons are life lessons and can be used in every type of relationship, not just intimate ones.

[PDQuick]

When we get into the debate of right, or wrong, it is purely subjective, and it is important that we all understand that. If you look at it from the disordered persons perspective, is it right for them to lie, cheat, and manipulate? Well, it gets them what they need and want, by the only means that they know, so, the answer would have to be yes, it is right for them, in their limited mental and emotional capacity. If you look at it from our perspective, then, no it isn't right, because they are fooling us into giving them what they want, and leaving us hurt, out in the cold. Thus there is no right or wrong, there is just right and wrong for me.

[joop]

Is there a BPD for dummies out there because i am totally lost here with this right and wrong.

PDQ are you saying that cheating or lieing to the pwBPD is acceptable in there thinking and its right to do it so they feel blameless in there self?

Here is an example of what my ex did.. I get a phone call from a cell phone, it flashes up with a number, i answer , the call is ended after a few seconds with the other person not saying anything.

Long story short.. Turns out my ex had got herself a pay and go sim card to contact this guy who i confronted her about 5 mths earlier and who she promised at that time she would never contact again.

Now the point i want to make is this.. My ex got up off her bum, went and got this sim card , put credit on it and called this guy again, so when she needed to speak to me she would change the sim card in her phone back to the number i knew, but that day she forgot which sim she had in

her actions show it was well thought out, it was cynical and cold and she knew what she was doing, so are you telling me that to her it was right thing to do when she had a partner and i could not blame her for doing that..

If i have it right then my god there is more twisted thinking on here than in a pwBPD head.

[PDQuick]

Joop, I can't tell you what was going through her mind at the time, but I can give you reasons why people do things like that.

From everything we read, fear is a driving emotion in a disordered persons persona. Fear of abandonment is a key part of that. They fear being alone, because it leaves them with their thoughts, and that, to them, is scary. They would much rather have someone to focus on. Drama is a big factor as well, because it keeps their minds focused on something else.

Now, take your ex-girlfriend, and you can add mine to this list too, they have a fear of abandonment. When you have this fear, you do what will soothe that fear. You find what we refer to as "the one in the wings". If things fall apart with you, there is someone there to take your place. You will find this very characteristic of the disordered people we are dealing with. Hence all of the cheating that goes on. This also lends into the black and white thinking patterns. Once the switch has been made, then the old person becomes the "black" and the new becomes the "white".

Think of it this way Joop. Lets say you have gone through a horrible catastrophe like what has just happened in Japan. Lets say your home has been destroyed, and you have no job, no car, nothing. After a week, you have exhausted all of the food you have. You are hungry, but not at the critical point of life or death. Your fear is that you will become that way.

You see a truck that has food in it, yet you have no money. What do you do? Morally, it is wrong to steal, but the fear of starving permits yourself to rationalize that this is what you have to do. You do it out of fear. They act on the same impulses, but on a daily basis, and under much less severe circumstances. Yet, the fear to them, is as real as your fear would be in that scenario.

Your ex was doing what she had to do to keep her fears in check. Its hard to wrap your mind around, but its true. They will lie to you to cover up their actions, because they are afraid that you will leave, prompting a need for someone else, who may, or may not be on a string. They manipulate because they don't believe they can merit what they want on their own accords. It is a deep seeded fear, one that you and I will hopefully ever have to face.

[SlipKnot]

i think i can see something here that i would like to point out, just in case it makes a difference to some of you. we have all been hurt, and in some cases, grieviously. we dont want to excuse the people who hurt us, give them an out or relieve what we believe to be their due. i cant argue those feelings, hell i have them myself. what is hard, and i can speak for myself quite definitely on this point, is looking at "what was done to me" objectively and without bias in order to pull some damn meaning from it. and then someone asks us to look at OUR role in hurting ourselves? what the? she hurt me, she manipulated me, she used me (substitute 'he' for 'she', ladies) and I did something wrong? honest reaction, ive had the same myself. to be fair though, this isnt what this topic was about, in my mind anyway. nobody should take responsibility for what is not theirs. and nobody is excusing what was done to us and nobody wants to diminish or invalidate the hurt we feel. it is about, finally and for the good of ourselves, taking the focus OFF our exes and the behaviour and the pain and damage and putting it squarely on ourselves, where it has to be now. we cant erase what happened, we can only deal with it and the blame game, regardless of our stand on it, keeps us enmeshed and unable to move forward. take a step back and analyze our role in what happened with a view toward learning something positive to take with us as we walk through the rest of our lives. dont beat yourself up, dont own anyone elses issues, but be honest with yourself, be objective and look for the truth. this is what i see in this thread. we have survived an ordeal. now lets move from 'surviving' to 'living'.

SK

[rocker99]

Amen brothers

[Brer Rabbit]

SK, I think youre right on 

Im gonna take this a step further...owning our own emotions.

Whats are FACTUAL statements from PDQ's example?

Diane is insecure with Jack's hesitation to wed and Jack is insecure with Diane's flirtation.

-OR-

Jack made Diane insecure by his hesitation to wed and Diane made Jack insecure by her flirtation.

What are the differences between the 2 statements?

[Valentine09]

They're both to blame.  They shouldn't be shacking up and playing house.  There's no real commitment on either side.

[once removed]

PDQuick,

excellent post. i tend to agree with sarah1234, with the lack of communication.

since i'm argumentative by nature, im not sure your story is bullet proof, but i certainly get it. i haven't fully dove in to all the replies, and i probably should have because they all touch on most of what i want to say.

people have to be responsible for their actions. it just need be remembered we (if not especially the BPD) don't always KNOW better. we dont even always realize what we're communicating, or that we're communicating. i understand why diane did what she did. i understand why jack reacted as he did.

as i read through the replies, this is getting downright philosophical. i like brer rabbit's posing of the "difference". i was beginning to lean there. "blame" is inherently often traceable. someone usually "started it". diane took the first action. you can argue jack's inaction caused that action if you want to. i really like slipknots take as well. and thats why i come back to your original statement. blame should be completely removed from the equation. that, or applied equally. it just doesn't help to endlessly blame our BPD ex. at the very least, we have to examine, if they were so wrong, why we put up with someone who was all wrong.

[hurt.former.friend]

I think I might understand what you are getting at... here is my take on it:

Jack and Diane both have issues to deal with themselves that are preventing them from being able to have a healthy relationship.  Diane is not willing to let the relationship progress at its natural pace.  Instead she feels the need to introduce the idea of marraige to "test" whether the committment level is where she thinks it should be.  She is trying to control Jack which may be why he is hesitating.  No one wants to be controlled by another.  He is reading her impatience as a warning sign, as he should.  At the same time, Jack is feeling "hesitant" about making a committment, yet he isn't taking notice of the fact that the committment already exists.  They are together and have been for a duration of time.  He wanted her to live with him.  The hard part is done.  Now, if they can both just relax and enjoy each other, they would realize that the issue of marraige really doesn't need to be an issue at all.  What makes a relationship work is mutal respect, which Diane did not show when she flirted with his friend.  They are not ready for marraige.  The party and the presents can't fix a problem that is already there. You have to first know yourself and love yourself so that you don't expect someone else to make up for what you think is missing in your life. 

How did I do?

[once removed]

reading about the man vs woman argument has me thinking. we can't forget the differences in men and women and what motivates them. not to mention insecurity.

someone, i think PDQuick posed the hypothetical of your partner flirts, what do you do? well, depends on our definition of "flirting". i like everyone have my insecurities. i can be extremely secure. but i have a certain security, especially if communication is strong, and those dynamics of a relationship that keep us secure are strong.

i consider myself loyal and monogamous and i want the same. doesn't mean that when in a relationship i dont get a kick from running into another girl, charming her, or being charmed by her, getting a big smile, being outright hit on, whatever. thats probably not really the definition of "flirting" we're operating on, i understand. but that encounter is going to give me confidence, as it would anyone. and chances are, im actually just gonna bring it home, feeling confident, and flirt like hell with my partner.

i've had my partner describe being hit on. my reaction was more or less "good for you honey. you're sexy. i told you so." i would hope hers would be the same, and that she'd be secure enough if i told her about it too.

i mention this because your hypothetical describes two clearly insecure people. security in our selves, our relationship, and in our partners behavior toward us, and in our partner themselves, all matter, as well as communication.