Mindfulness - possible traps

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Charred- yes it is powerful. I lost my mother when I was 18 and my brother died when I was 31. I grieved for the lives they had lost but I only recently realised I avoid the pain of what I lost for myself. That was too painful. I think you have a very good insight into your emotional world and it inspires me to explore mindfulness meditation more. Thank you for sharing as honestly as you do.

Thank You... .  I am sort of enjoying it.

I am finding it helps me to realize that I have more issues than I first admitted to. Starting to wonder if I have some kind of PD... certainly had the upbringing for it, and the ADHD may be hyperactivity due to other issues. Between ADHD and my pwBPD, and all the other little things... .  I am not surprised that I threw myself in to work and study and acquiring things, rather than people... .  my experiences have been that as I get to really like people... they leave my life, or if they stay they are disordered. That shouldn't always be the case... .  but at the moment, it covers everybody outside my family, and quite a bit of my family. Hope everyone's families are not as screwed up as mine. Used to think that wherever I worked was the most screwed up place around, now I have been so many places that it is clearly how they are messed up, not if... .  most the time. Always think of it as... .  the people that were idiots/lazy/mean when you were a kid... .  didn't change much in all likelyhood, they just got older, and they are the same people you run in to as adults and have issues with.

[charred]

Charred- yes it is powerful. I lost my mother when I was 18 and my brother died when I was 31. I grieved for the lives they had lost but I only recently realised I avoid the pain of what I lost for myself. That was too painful. I think you have a very good insight into your emotional world and it inspires me to explore mindfulness meditation more. Thank you for sharing as honestly as you do.

Thank You... .  I am sort of enjoying it.

I am finding it helps me to realize that I have more issues than I first admitted to. Starting to wonder if I have some kind of PD... certainly had the upbringing for it, and the ADHD may be hyperactivity due to other issues. Between ADHD and my pwBPD, and all the other little things... .  I am not surprised that I threw myself in to work and study and acquiring things, rather than people... .  my experiences have been that as I get to really like people... they leave my life, or if they stay they are disordered. That shouldn't always be the case... .  but at the moment, it covers everybody outside my family, and quite a bit of my family. Hope everyone's families are not as screwed up as mine. Used to think that wherever I worked was the most screwed up place around, now I have been so many places that it is clearly how they are messed up, not if... .  most the time. Always think of it as... .  the people that were idiots/lazy/mean when you were a kid... .  didn't change much in all likelyhood, they just got older, and they are the same people you run in to as adults and have issues with.

[FindingMe2011]

I'm working on my boundaries and contact with my exBPD helps me work on that and helps me teach my children things I never learned as a child.

  It was apparent to me that my ex, was the only person in my life, that I would except poor behavior from.( Actually later on, I also discovered, I did this with my mother.)  As the dust settled, and the anger had subsided somewhat, and we still had some contact, I found myself in this predicament. The children know enough about our situation, my behavior, my ex s' behavior, and they understand, I have an open door policy with them. As they would bring me issues, that they had with their peers, it was an excellent opportunity to introduce them to mental maturity, instead of piling on. To show them the ability, to be aware of their own behavior, establish boundaries, and how and why we should not accept poor behavior. It was amazing how much they could comprehend. But just as myself, we need little reminders, to not get sucked back in to the dysfunction. Ive never once, needed to use their mothers name. At 10 and 12, there are plenty of instances, to choose from. So they spend 50% of the time with her, they come to me, from time to time, (when the r/s, with their mom gets rough) and feel the need to tell me what she says. I reply mostly with a chuckle, and tell them " I know she does, she did it, while we were together. I didnt suspect it would change". It used to surprise them, that I had not much reaction.(hard in the beginning). So how is it, Im supposed to expect them, not to accept poor behavior, yet they see me, being hypocritical? I couldnt do it. She left me no other choice, and continues to rear her ugliness, from time to time. Shes' the only person, Ive ever did this with, or felt the need to. I now see this as one of the biggest steps I made towards, detachment, and letting go. Maybe some day in the future, this will change. Its up to her,if the past year and a half continues, I see NC continuing. It also brings up the fact, that through out all of this, her behavior falls right in line, with everything I learned.( I did this the hard way at first) I dont see how cracking the door open, is going to help me, her or our children. Not that I would recycle, but the drama involved is something I dont need, nor want. Ive gotten used to not being around people, that dont need constant monitoring in some form or fashion, or feel the need to stay one step in front of, it was too exhausting. We shared a trauma bond, that I will never forget, the good, and the bad. I no longer feel the need.

       Strange, though, as well, as the person you thought was coming back seemed different now.

This was when I realized, I had actually seen her for who she was. With no anger,sadness,love, or happiness. The blinders came off, for the first time in my life. It showed me how narrow alot of my past views really were. It was different, because I had grown. Erased the fairy tale, but except for sporadic happiness, what did I truly lose? What did I gain? The more I continue this path, the plus side gets greater, for me and my children.

 Sometimes it has even felt as if some of us here on the site, myself included, have 'died' in certain ways

All have felt this in some form or fashion. Keep working and pushing. Ive come to see that all the qualities, I thought I had lost, were just hiding for a while. What actually had died, was a whole lot of faulty thinking.

I'm trying to support them with their feelings of loss, not just of my pwBPD but of their parents (my relationship with their dad)

Its hard, for everyone, my kids got/get to feel the wrath from 2 adults they trust (hopefully). With no ability to control the situation, or have a say. For that, i have apologized many times to them, and made sure, they understood it wasnt their fault. At one point oldest had come to the conclusion, from watching and talking with her cousins (they also live in her household) that there was nothing I could do. I said "there is some truth in this, but the bottom line. We both acted poorly, and nobody made us get into a r/s. I hope you learn to make better decisions than we did." It was more understanding and growing. So I continue to do the best I can, learning, teaching, admitting my mistakes, making sure my kids dont walk behind me, or in front of me, but beside me. Just as expect everyone I love, NOW

[maria1]

'Maybe some day in the future, this will change. Its up to her,if the past year and a half continues, I see NC continuing. It also brings up the fact, that through out all of this, her behavior falls right in line, with everything I learned.( I did this the hard way at first) I dont see how cracking the door open, is going to help me, her or our children.'

We all have to make our own choices about contact. I wouldn't let my BPDex near my children because I realised, once I understood about BPD, that he pushed and pulled and triangulated with them in a way they don't need to be around. But he isn't their parent and was in their lives for less than a year, so I'm lucky I can make that choice. He doesn't trample my boundaries at all now because he knows I'll go NC if I feel that happening. Aside from all my emotional feelings about detachment and NC, NC can cause him to stalk me and I don't want any risk of him becoming so crazy he does something in desperation which would scare my children. I can manage it all better this way and have control where I need it.

However I have started to look at my relationship with their father in a different light. We have been split up for over 4 years and he has just moved in with his new partner who he has been with for that time. The boundaries stuff, validation and helping my children look after their emotional health is more important in their relationship with their dad and his new partner than with BPDex. Like an adult, they responded to BPDex because he filled a gap that was missing in their lives, both from their father and from me. That's been the biggest lesson for me.

[FindingMe2011]

He doesn't trample my boundaries at all now because he knows I'll go NC if I feel that happening.

This looks to me as a way to keep control ( you use this word) of a dysfunctional r/s

Aside from all my emotional feelings about detachment and NC, NC can cause him to stalk me and I don't want any risk of him becoming so crazy he does something in desperation which would scare my children.

This appears to me, as justification for your need to control a situation. NC could also have him (in time) move on and remove some of the dysfunction. When i first did this, I had strong feelings of guilt and shame come across me. Then we twist, turn, and neatly fit, to see what we want to see. The origin of why we break NC. I stayed in a dysfunctional r/s, with the excuse of our kids. When is, what is best for you going to come into play? Do you believe staying attached to this disordered  person is what is best for you?,  Or is this not important and the kids possibility of being scared is.    Does this sound logical? Is it possible things become too hard, and you subconsciously take the path of least resistance. Is it possible he will one day, become very dysregulated because of your threats of NC?... .  When i realized I didnt truly understand myself, and figured out this was going to take some time. This is what I told myself. Im going to completely detach, and at that time, I will re-evaluate this r/s, if its even available to me. For now Im going to ask for space, to do this. ... .  I cant help but to put myself in your new r/s shoes, and have to question his motives, and understanding... .  I also wonder how 3 father figures, in your children s' lives, is beneficial? It looks a bit confusing.

          Like an adult, they responded to BPDex because he filled a gap that was missing in their lives, both from their father and from me. 

Is this what your children told you?, or is this how you see it?... .  

What is it that would keep us in a r/s with someone whom we know is toxic/dysfunctional? The same thing, that put us in it, in the first place. Shame, fear, and guilt. This is at the core, not everything else we tell ourselves, that is just the bi-products

... .  I wish you well, PEACE   

[maria1]

Not exactly- the detachment is happening because he doesn't get what he wants from me. He is finding other sources to meet his needs. I don't meet his needs any more so his need for contact becomes less. My need for contact is another matter and I have to be aware of my own emotions under it. I don't need to threaten NC and I never have. After I reconnected with him there were two occasions he kept contacting me when I asked him to stop. I stopped responding. My children don't have 3 father figures in their lives. But they do remember BPDex and talk about him at times, wonder how he is. I don't think that's too unnatural. I am managing the situation on a way that, to me, seems the best way of detaching for me, my ex and my children.

I ended contact with BPDex 6 months ago. I have limited contact with him now and my children know that I have that. They dont see him. They won't meet my new boyfriend for a long time if at all. I learnt that lesson already. I kept BPDex largely away from them for a long time, but he quickly connected with them. I take responsibility for that.

CC has removed the dysfunction and he is detaching. It's working for me perhaps as the path of least resistance but its not easy. As I say we all have out choices to make about contact. If I truly am in denial I will know sooner or later but I'm trying to stay connected to the emotions that are still triggered through keeping up the connection. I had and would have other emotions with NC. If we are both detaching I don't see that it should be a concern. 

[nonhere]

Going back to the original post - this is a really interesting article.  Thank, maria1, for posting this.

I recognised a lot of things I've wondered about in the article.  Referring both to my last 3 years getting over this BPDr/s, and to an earlier period in my life, over 10 years ago.  At that time I was going to move a long way (about as far as you can on this Earth) to see if a r/s with someone I now believe was also a pwBPD could work out.  I started going to Buddhist meditation classes.  The monk leading the classes was a fantastic guy and great teacher.  I still think I got a lot out of this meditation practice (and still do, when I'm disciplined enough to do it).  But I knew that what I was proposing to do (move across the world) was a very risky undertaking.  I was worried about it, that I might have been making the wrong decision.

I remember wondering, so clearly, what I was doing.  And I wanted to ask the monk this question: "Is it possible to use meditation to make yourself feel better, or to cope more sanely, when the real problem is actually that you're doing something you shouldn't, that is harmful to yourself?  Is this what I'm doing?  Shouldn't I stop meditating, and address that actual problem instead?  If I stopped meditating, perhaps this problem would show itself to me "unpadded" as it were, and I'd have to solve it?  Then go back to meditating?".  I never did ask this question.  I'm sure this monk would have given an interesting reply; in the Buddhist centre he was part of there was an enormous amount of work getting done - monks grappling with the real world as well as meditating.

In the end, I did move.  And it was emotionally very harmful to me.  Though not just that, of course.  And looking back, I think that just possibly, that meditation practice enabled me (in a positive sense of "enabling" to do something that I simply had to do - give it a try, go and see - with less harm to myself than otherwise.  Because I was agonised over it: I knew this move was a hugely dangerous gamble; but I thought I'd never forgive myself if I didn't go and face the problem (this woman) face to face.  Perhaps, rather than deluding me, the meditation actually helped me realise that action had to be taken, and gave me courage to take that action - even though taking the action ended up devastating me emotionally?

And then, more recently: I look back at all the discipline I used to keep myself sane and healthy (mind and body), while I was getting over this latest r/s in the last 3 years.  Or rather, for the first 18-24 months, still hoping that something of it could be salvaged.  Which thought makes me think: what was the point of all that discipline I practised, if my life (and perhaps the discipline itself) was revolving around a delusion?    Would it perhaps have been better for me if I'd simply collapsed emotionally instead, thrown myself on someone's mercy, ranted and raged and got it all over?  (Whose mercy?  The BPDex's?  A replacement?)

I think I've led this question away from whether mindfulness meditation can be bad for you, and onto something more general: that the aftermath of this latest BPD r/s has dented my belief in any habit or practice I know (or have, or am - being enduring is a big part of my identity) that allows me to put up with difficult things.  Because I've put up with things I shouldn't have put up with.  It's confusing for me at the moment - I'm wondering whether there's any virtue in putting up with difficult things at all!  (I'm sure it'll turn out there is - it's just hard not knowing, still sifting through the rubble).  Right now, as in my question that I never asked the monk, I feel that I've used my abilities for a bad purpose.

Thanks for a great discussion on this thread.

[FindingMe2011]

Not exactly- the detachment is happening because he doesn't get what he wants from me. He is finding other sources to meet his needs. I don't meet his needs any more so his need for contact becomes less.

This was very sobering to me. When I learned of objectivity, and that i was attempting to being emotionally responsible for 2. My need to know was quickly put to the test... .  All that I was learning was true, my behavior as much as hers... .  Did your new r/s start, as a result of ex finding other sources.

 My need for contact is another matter and I have to be aware of my own emotions under it.


If I truly am in denial I will know sooner or later but I'm trying to stay connected to the emotions that are still triggered through keeping up the connection. I had and would have other emotions with NC.


The connection, seems to be keeping you from the emotions you would feel, if you suffered through the abandonment depression, that NC would bring on. Another slew of emotions, that you seemed to touch. Your unresolved core trauma... .  You mention different emotions with LC, as apposed to NC, could you explain?... .  My experience was they were the same, just a little more intense.  I needed meds to even keep myself somewhat balanced/functional. Is it possible your drug of choice is people?... .  With all this going on with you, do you feel you are giving this new r/s, its best possible start? Appears like it would almost have to start off on the triangle. Guess were getting off topic.  ... .  I wish you well, PEACE  

 

[maria1]

Hi nonhere

It's interesting that we can all use any tool we want to convince ourselves that one or other course of action is the right one. Mindfulness seems a very powerful one- I was reading a discussion with Oprah and the guy is it Eckhart? where she asks how do we know when it's OK to accept something and when we should try and change something (www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/12/bad-memories-eckhart-tolle-how-to-deal_n_2260002.html). I don't really think he answers the question. That's not to say that takes away the validity of mindfulness but I think we all have times when we really don't know the truth. I am told I am easily led ( by people who want something from me!) but I have an ability to stand firm when I believe in something. I have such a driver to do the right thing though I can sometimes really struggle knowing what the right thing is. Maybe a part of it is accepting that there are no right answers sometimes. If we are in denial time will tell and hopefully we can learn from it looking back.

'the aftermath of this latest BPD r/s has dented my belief in any habit or practice I know (or have, or am - being enduring is a big part of my identity) that allows me to put up with difficult things.  Because I've put up with things I shouldn't have put up with.  It's confusing for me at the moment - I'm wondering whether there's any virtue in putting up with difficult things at all!'

Isn't that resilience in the face of adversity a codependent trait? Maybe the answer is learning to value and trust yourself again. Maybe letting go of the ability to put up with difficult things needs setting aside if it is causing you harm. I always thought it was great I was so empathic and sensitive to others; now I see it's caused me real problems in my relationships and possibly in my parenting too.

Thank you for getting us back to the topic. Your post is just the sort of thing I was wondering about.

[maria1]

Findingme2011- the contact I have really is limited and small in time. We were together 10 months. I posted before that the r/s ended 6 months ago but it ended in May so 8 months ago- I had 10 weeks of NC then a couple of weeks of madness on and off, not recycling, trying to convince him any relationship was impossible because of all that had happened and because of how we were together. Since September things have settled down and I stopped initiating contact, having similar realisations about my own behaviour as you mention. That ebbs and flows a little but on the whole we are just moving apart from each other. I think I've seen BPDex maybe 3 times since September? Once since my new relationship started.

You say 'with all this going on' but there isn't really anything going on. I think the abandonment depression happened during NC and LC- I can never have a relationship with this man no matter what he does, including therapy.

With LC the emotions have lessened over time in a similar way to them lessening with NC. I imagined too much with NC. He became something in my mind that wasn't real. LC let me see the disorder up close and I find a sad and frightened child. I knew when I saw him I could never sleep with him again. He is seriously ill. He was not abusive toward me although I do believe he would have become so. I respect that he knew that more than I did. I respect that he saw me losing myself to the relationship. And I respect myself for the course I've chosen for now.

My new r/s didn't start as a result of ex finding other sources. He has had other sources throughout. They come and go as I think they did when we were 'together'.

The new r/s is starting off with me having been damaged by not just the BPD r/s but relationships prior to that. If it has to be triangulation then there is triangulation with all my history and I hope there isn't. We both talk about past relationships but the focus is that we are getting to know each other. The focus is that we have both learned from the past and are both trying to work on ourselves. I had 6 months on my own after 10 months with BPDex. It was tough and I felt some pretty deep despair. But I came through, not by dating but by leaning on me and by connecting with me. That work hasn't stopped and it might not be complete. I'm not running away from connecting with the core trauma- I'm actually moving further toward it.

[Grey Kitty]

I still think I got a lot out of this meditation practice (and still do, when I'm disciplined enough to do it).  But I knew that what I was proposing to do (move across the world) was a very risky undertaking.  I was worried about it, that I might have been making the wrong decision.

... .  

I remember wondering, so clearly, what I was doing.  And I wanted to ask the monk this question: "Is it possible to use meditation to make yourself feel better, or to cope more sanely, when the real problem is actually that you're doing something you shouldn't, that is harmful to yourself?  Is this what I'm doing?  Shouldn't I stop meditating, and address that actual problem instead?  If I stopped meditating, perhaps this problem would show itself to me "unpadded" as it were, and I'd have to solve it?  Then go back to meditating?". 

... .  

I think I've led this question away from whether mindfulness meditation can be bad for you, and onto something more general: that the aftermath of this latest BPD r/s has dented my belief in any habit or practice I know (or have, or am - being enduring is a big part of my identity) that allows me to put up with difficult things.  Because I've put up with things I shouldn't have put up with.  It's confusing for me at the moment - I'm wondering whether there's any virtue in putting up with difficult things at all!  (I'm sure it'll turn out there is - it's just hard not knowing, still sifting through the rubble).  Right now, as in my question that I never asked the monk, I feel that I've used my abilities for a bad purpose.

It is funny... .  I'm not a person of much faith, but the one bit of faith I do have is that mindfullness meditation (aka Buddhist practice) is something that changes me in a way that I like.

It doesn't seem to give me any answers I don't have already... .  it just (slowly and sometimes inexplicably) helps me listen to my heart and decide what I want to do in a real situation. And real situations are often very complicated... .  it can be very hard to see what I'll feel good about doing later. And all too often I don't do it, or don't do it as soon as I wish I had. 

But I don't find that mindfullness meditation makes me "feel better" and thus enables me to do difficult things I shouldn't do. Perhaps other sorts of meditation would do that. For me, mindfullness meditation is about feeling what I am experiencing right now, pleasant or unpleasant, exactly as it is, and noticing how I feel about it. (Or perhaps I should say mindfullness meditation is trying to accomplish this, and getting much value out of trying no matter how badly I actually am at doing it!)

[charred]

Mindfulness helped to destress, as most of it came from worrying about past/future, not being in the moment. I think being in the moment and not reacting egoically could be dangerous with a BPD person... .  you could enable taking more abuse. The two really useful things to do would be track (practice running) and learning "50 ways to leave your lover"... .  so you have all that in mind.

[Grey Kitty]

Mindfulness helped to destress, as most of it came from worrying about past/future, not being in the moment. I think being in the moment and not reacting egoically could be dangerous with a BPD person... .  you could enable taking more abuse.

My mindfullness practice does cut down stress by being more present. But the result I notice is that I am more connected to my values, and better able to recognize that I'm in an abusive situation and choose to stop the abuse or leave the situation.

I'm less likely to try to fight back, justify, argue, defend, explain, or do something else that makes the situation worse.

Did you have different experiences?

[jp254958]

Emotions are fleeting, unless we surrender to them. If we surrender to them, they can overtake our entire life, and everything can spiral out of control.

Mindfulness is about becoming aware of our thoughts and emotions, and also acknowledging that they can pass.

To say that meditation has a negative influence on natural emotions is a bit of a stretch.  If we have back pain, are we unintelligible / avoidant by taking Advil?  If a psychotic takes antipsychotic medication, are they ignoring their true selves?

I understand the original argument... .  that people can be avoidant of negative emotions that are a natural response to doing something right or wrong. Meditation, on the surface, could be misunderstood as a mechanism to avoiding natural emotions (sadness, healthy shame, etc.). But in reality, being mindful of our actions and thoughts makes us “better" people.  We reduce impulsive reactions that we later regret.  We become more conscious to choose love and empathy for others when we're mindful whereas we would be more inclined to react emotionally / mindlessly if we weren't practicing mindfulness meditation.

I've never heard of lives becoming worse for people when they started meditating.

[charred]

Mindfulness helped to destress, as most of it came from worrying about past/future, not being in the moment. I think being in the moment and not reacting egoically could be dangerous with a BPD person... .  you could enable taking more abuse.

My mindfullness practice does cut down stress by being more present. But the result I notice is that I am more connected to my values, and better able to recognize that I'm in an abusive situation and choose to stop the abuse or leave the situation.

I'm less likely to try to fight back, justify, argue, defend, explain, or do something else that makes the situation worse.

Did you have different experiences?

No, but the topic was traps and that is only thing I can think of. I tried the mindfulness exercises in presence of my exBPDgf, as I agreed to talk to her after much prodding, and found that she is too much of an assault on my senses to keep present... in fact I very much wanted to tune her out. Mindfulness helped de-stress me better than anything I have tried, including anti-anxiety meds... .  they made me feel weird and I couldn't sleep for a few days after trying them. I found that nearly everything that my pwBPD came at me with was egoic and just noticing that helped keep from being manipulated by it.

I suppose if you are in to the rat race and accumulating possessions rather than authentic r/s with genuine people, mindfulness could steer you the wrong way. (Looking at it backward I think.)

[livednlearned]

I've never heard of lives becoming worse for people when they started meditating.

I liked how you explained mindfulness in your post. Thanks jp.

Looking at your sentence here about lives not getting worse -- I agree. I think people are rarely harmed by mediation, and when I think of people I know who meditate, I think I can see the benefits for them, and being around them.

But I've also met people who dedicate themselves to meditation (going on retreats, living among monks in India, meditating dozens of times a day, etc.) and there are some who seem almost misled by their practice. I don't quite know how to explain it.

I agree with maria1 that meditation alone doesn't appear to be therapeutic enough to deal with deep emotional and relationship issues. If a person thinks, "I'm a follower of the Tao, or I'm a Buddist, or I meditate daily" and therefore I'm advanced in my self-understanding, that seems like flawed logic. Meditation helps us improve, but it is one tool. I could meditate to help me deal with my FOO, but I think therapy  -- the deep muddy yetchy dark hard kind -- is what ultimately helps us punch through to the shadows.

[yeeter]

You know, there are even therapy junkies out there.  Like meditation, or mindfulness, or self analysis, or anything - when the focus becomes the process of it, instead of the underlying content, it can turn into a distraction from much higher potential work.

[seeking balance]

You know, there are even therapy junkies out there.  Like meditation, or mindfulness, or self analysis, or anything - when the focus becomes the process of it, instead of the underlying content, it can turn into a distraction from much higher potential work.

Balanced approach tends to work best.

[maria1]

This has been a really interesting discussion. For me, my BPD relationship and recovery from it has opened an awareness to patterns of behaviour in me as well as a need for me to get in touch with the emotions and the thoughts below the surface of my first layer of consciousness, which is the one I've operated from forever.

I had a boyfriend who told me he was once diagnosed with cyclothymia, a mood disorder. He thought himself to be incredibly strong at 'managing' his emotions which he'd learned through teaching himself basic CBT techniques. As I got to know him more I found him to be brimming with self denial and, looking back now, pretty disordered. Not that my issues weren't at play too.

I think mindfulness meditation is a wonderful thing; I also think connecting with our emotions and understanding them is a wonderful thing. What concerns me is when people use any tool to stuff emotions or not listen to them; that's what I see as dangerous. The difficulty with self denial is we can find validation for our own truth very easily in many different places. And we can do it to avoid pain. That's why I posted this, because I think we are all on a path to ultimately face our pain and dig deep within it to recover. That doesn't mean that somebody who uses mindfulness isn't doing the work they might need to do as well, far from it.

[jp254958]

As seeking noted, balance, in all things, seems to work best.  Balanced diet.  Work/life balance.  Balance of listening and talking.  Balance of giving and receiving.  Balance of emotion and logic (Wise Mind). 

I guess anyone who builds their entire life around meditating could become lost in the practice and ignore what life has to offer.  They could also ignore their emotions/pain that we need to process to learn and become wiser, stronger people. Sadly, I think some people have had such a traumatic past that mindfulness may be the only practical way for them to improve their quality of life.  For example, pwBPD are usually averse to therapy... .  even if they get there, they can idealize an then devalue a therapist, and quit. Perhaps therapy threatens who they feel their fleeting sense of self at some point, so they give up.  Mindfulness, I would think, is far less threatening than dealing with real issues from childhood and addressing primitive defense/coping mechanisms.  So maybe in some cases, mindfulness is the best replacement for real therapy because it can help balance BPD emotions, and improve their quality of life and for others around them.

For the rest of us without BPD, balance is the best approach.  Just as doctors advise 30 minutes a day for exercise, spending 20-30 minutes per day on meditation is a good healthy practice.  Acknowledging our emotions and the reasons they're trying to surface and actually dealing with our issues is also critical to our self-development.

I guess this was just a long winded version of saying I agree with Maria and Seeking, with a few rare exceptions. 

[DesertChild]

I was taught meditation as a kid. Several times... .  and it helped me get past my BPDm.

That said, mindfulness, Zen Buddhism, and meditation should be considered separate. They *do* overlap, but because both mindfulness and meditation are deeply personal things, it shouldn't auto-tie to Zen Buddhism. And just because ONE Zen Buddhist was bad, shouldn't also mean that all Zen Buddhism is bad either. You don't know if they are doing it right or wrong. I refuse to make snap judgments on all peoples based on one person because that's what my BPDm does and I don't want to copy that behavior.

So I'll define each and how it's different to me and go into some length.

Meditation- It helps me accept the here and now. It's not merely watching the emotions, it's watching the emotions and saying, that is OK. I am perfectly fine feeling that way. It helps to open my senses beyond myself and also see myself as myself and ACCEPT it is real. This goes against everything I was taught as a child from my BPDm. She said emotions aren't real or provable. Meditation does more for me that just connect me to my emotional base. It connects me to my higher thoughts as well and the clutter that often builds up there. It helps me deal with my stress and to sort where and when that stress is coming from. By accepting it, then I take responsibility for feeling and thinking those things, so I can create a task list in order to make my current situation better. I get to ask things such as "Why do you think those things? Where did that thought come from?" And I often find myself surprised when I delve deeper. It helps me not to project on other people how I am feeling and take responsibility to change it instead. Meditation is definitely not about control, which would make it anti-BPD. My BPD mom hates meditation.

That is NOT mindfulness.

Mindfulness, I think you can do without meditation. When done wrongly, it can be like hyper awareness, thus you can become super critical, but it really doesn't transcend beyond that. When and if I use it, I use it to track things like where in my body the feeling is being bunched up. When I was suffering from flashes from memories I didn't know, it helped me track where the feeling was coming from, accept it, and then I used meditation to sort and deal with the responsibility of what the flash was. But mindfulness really doesn't help me open the memory up and explore it if I need to or feel like it. Meditation does that.

Zen Buddhism contains a lot more than just mindfulness. It also contains the eightfold path, being aware of your own actions, living in the moment for the moment (Dharma) instead of trying to be aware of the moment, and both being aware of yourself in the space and just being in the space simultaneously. Do you know those moments when you see something so stunningly beautiful and you have no words? Or those moments when you are doing something you enjoy and your mind turns off for just a few seconds and you somehow feel connected, yet aware of yourself. That's how I view Zen Buddhism. It's those moments of calm and interconnectedness without having to force it. Of course people within the religion won't get that--that's the nature of the human being. But just because they practice it wrongly, doesn't mean the religion itself doesn't hold value. Just like the Crusades happened, it doesn't make all Christians evil. I am not Zen Buddhist, however, I think trying for those small moments and to do better good is not such a bad thing. To me Buddhism teaches that if you want to better the world you have to understand yourself first and then pay the world back by giving of yourself honestly. Not such a bad philosophy.