Lack of Reciprocity

[boatman]

Hi everyone-

Well, I'm back. I see there are many new people here since the last time I posted on this site, and I recognize some people too. I wish the circumstances in which I return were different.

Just to recap my story, I have been in two relationships with girls with BPD. The first was the worst and ended three years ago. The second was also bad and ended this time last year. I just ended another relationship two days before Christmas and while I think she was more co-dependent than anything, she does have some BPD traits. There were quite a few, but I want to talk about just two of them right now. The first one is quite simple, requires very little explanation and is something pwBPD #2 did as well (I posted about it in the past). I don't know if ignore is the right word, but she definitely would not respond when I spoke. And if there was any sort of music playing she would sing rather than participate in the conversation! Often, if she did say anything, she would say, "That's good". If I asked her if she would rather talk about something else she would say, "No, I'm just listening." Has anyone else experienced this? This is the second relationship I've been in where this type of behavior has occurred.

The second behavior she displayed was what Freud, if I am not mistaken, referred to as displacement. She would put responsibility for her thoughts, feelings and actions onto others, particularly me. For example, we met at a friend's house for dinner in separate cars, meaning we each had to drive. She then proceeded to drink almost an entire bottle of wine! She blamed it on our friends saying she didn't know they were heavy pourers, when she could clearly see how much wine was in each glass.

There were many occasions where she would blame me for her thoughts and feelings, and describe herself in a very self-limiting way. She had a whole list of things she was "incapable of doing". She couldn't eat healthy foods because she couldn't handle any change in her life. She told me her excessive drinking would not continue because she had changed her priorities in her life, but that she never drank that much anyway. I don't know about you, but I think a bottle of wine, 10 drinks, or even an entire bottle of whiskey (all of these in one sitting) is quite a lot.

I would appreciate hearing some feedback from all of you. I hope everyone is doing well in their recovery and healing.   

[2010]

I would appreciate hearing some feedback from all of you.

It appears as though you've been in non-stop relationships, trading one in for another. You've got them somewhat figured out, but I dont see where you've written any personal insight about your feelings as to why you chose another Borderline after the first. You then dated a co-dependent and another relationship was recently ended just two days before Christmas.  This has to be a very stressful time for you- as you're now just three weeks out of the fourth relationship and processing two of the others.

If you are still processing the earlier relationships and not the latest that ended three weeks ago, wouldn't it be a good time to discontinue dating for awhile and investigate some of these feelings? 

[boatman]

Hello 2010-

I'm sorry for the confusion. The r/s with BPD #1 ended in October 2008. The r/s with BPD #2 began in September 2010 and ended in January 2011. The r/s with the girl with co-dependent and BPD traits began in May 2011 and ended just before Christmas 2011. There was no fourth relationship. I agree that looking at my feelings is necessary- one of the main reasons for my participating in unhealthy r/s is that I often think I can't find anyone any better.

I'm still interested to see if anyone else has experienced unresponsiveness on the part of their partner with BPD. What kind of insight have you gained through this process 2010?

[MaybeSo]

Most often in my day to day dealings with ex, he talked a lot and I played a spportive listening role to him. He usually had a lot to talk about or vent about, sometimes I

felt exhausted from listening so much to him. About a year or so into the r/s I stopped doing so much of this (lending an ear to his lengthy venting sessions) and he got better at asking me how my day was and giving me a chance to share, too.

This last woman you describe sounds like she has a drinking problem. That would be a rather large red flag right there. A person with an active addiction is usually not going to be emotionally available. Emotionally needy, yes, but not emotionally available.

Feeling like we don't deserve better speaks to issues of self esteem and self worth. It would be near impossible to address those kind of feelings while continuing to choose date people that reinforce that belief. Taking a break from dating, hanging out with healthy people, and doing some therapy would be very helpful.

[lifeline12]

Just my humble opinion. Girl #1.It a classic case of passive aggressive.Not fun. She can't express how she really feels (and no you can't fix her). Its like her inviting you over for a roast beef dinner and then burning it instead of saying she didn't want to invite you in the first place

Girl 2 possibly an Alcoholic. For normal people they drink a couple of drinks and stop because they may start to feel not so good. They may even cut loose once in a while but that amount rarely happens twice.For an up and coming Alcoholic that's when the fun starts.She needs to get help for that before anything else (and no you can't fix her) She's obviously can't look at her behavior therefore in denial there is even a problem and I can tell you a thing or two about denial. I came out of my denial in the summer and it cost me a dearly. I just got out of icu for an infected root canal. My blood became toxic and I firmly believe that it was my emotional physical spiritual state that was completely shattered when my eyes finally opened. I just stopped taking care of myself and little by little my body started to shrivel to the point it wasn't strong enough to handle the infection. I know this to be true I felt it happening and if this didn't happen I may one day have died and I do believe this. My obsession for this man took on a life of its own and that is why I have to remain NC because he is my drug. Something happened though when I was fighting to stay alive, yes it was that close. My family and a handful of healthy friends came to see me and the look on theyre faces said it all. I was loved, these people truly loved me and I got it. IM worth all the tea in China and I don't have to hate my ex but he nor anyone will ever have the chance to hurt me like that again. I didn't protect myself that's up to me. I need to walk away the very first time he triangulated me with his ex. It was up to me and I don't hold him responsible for the choices I made. I am doing a spiritual 12 steps around this and the first step is to admit I was addicted to him and Im powerless. like a drunk trying to stay sober needs to stay away from slippery places, I too need to stay away from slippery places until maybe one day Im healthy enough. but Im done and I know it. However saying it doesn't mean the obsession is lifted I will still get mad sad lonely angry resentful remorseful and so on but I will have the tools to work through them one day at a time

The look in my young adult children's eyes of absolute terror that the most important person in they've lives might die gives me all the resolve I need to continue what Ive been doing and 1/2 mass. These relationships can kill us if we let it and I nearly did. Man I love my kids. Sorry went for a rant needed to get that out/

pls keep the focus on you cause at the end of the day what they did or who they are does really little in discovering what your all about and the only way to save you is to learn to love you 

[boatman]

This last woman you describe sounds like she has a drinking problem. That would be a rather large red flag right there. A person with an active addiction is usually not going to be emotionally available. Emotionally needy, yes, but not emotionally available.

Hi MaybeSo, thanks for your response-

She does have alcoholic tendencies, which she did eventually admit to, but only after calling me judgmental for bringing light to the episodes I described before. It is a huge red flag, one that I ignored unfortunately. I've noticed that I have a tendency to ignore things about dates that trigger a bad feeling in myself. I guess I just need to have better self-esteem.

Most often in my day to day dealings with ex, he talked a lot and I played a spportive listening role to him. He usually had a lot to talk about or vent about, sometimes I

felt exhausted from listening so much to him. About a year or so into the r/s I stopped doing so much of this (lending an ear to his lengthy venting sessions) and he got better at asking me how my day was and giving me a chance to share, too.

I can relate to this. Ex #3 did this from the very beginning. I remember having a bad feeling in my stomach during our first phone conversation. She talked almost endlessly about herself and didn't ask for feedback or pause long enough for me to give any. And when I would talk about myself, she would often respond with silence or "That's good". I remember thinking during our first conversation that she didn't seem very interested in me, to the point of assuming she wouldn't want to speak again. As we were saying goodbye, she said, "What a great conversation! I can't wait to talk again!"

Really, this recounting of past conversations isn't important; what is important is that I IGNORED my feelings of doubt and entered into a seven month relationship with her. This is what I need to work on.

Lifeline12-

Hello and thanks for your response. I'm sorry to hear that you were so sick, but it illustrates something I believe in very much- our mental state affects our bodies. Have you ever read any books by Wayne Dyer or Eckhart Tolle?

[seeking balance]

Hey Boatman,

Welcome back!

To 2nd 2010 observations, focusing on what they do is not necessarily going to help you avoid bad relationship #4.  Just because a relationship does not work out, does not make someone disordered or an alcoholic. 

Really, this recounting of past conversations isn't important; what is important is that I IGNORED my feelings of doubt and entered into a seven month relationship with her. This is what I need to work on.

This is a great place for you to focus your energy - why do you think you ignored your feelings or needs?

[boatman]

Hi SB-

Thanks for the welcome.  I agree that focusing on my exes actions in the context of self-justification is unproductive and unhealthy. I do think it's important to look at my feelings surrounding those events in this moment. The r/s didn't work out because of her lack of responsibility surrounding her excessive drinking (a bottle of Jack Daniels in one sitting, ten drinks in one night, and an entire bottle of wine in two hours before driving a car). The second reason the r/s didn't work out is that she would ignore me when I tried to talk with her. I don't think this behavior is indicative of a psychologically healthy person.

I did communicate my feelings regarding both of these issues to her. She told me I was being judgmental about the drinking and told me she couldn't control whether or not she responded to me and participated in conversation. The problem, as we agree, is that I stayed in the r/s despite the fact that there was no resolution regarding my concerns. I think the primary reason I ignored my feelings is low self-esteem. I have a tendency to assume that my current r/s is the only one I will ever have. I also think I unconsciously crave emotionally distant girls.

These behaviors on my ex's part were intermittent, which probably contributed to my ignoring of them. I guess I figured/hoped they were isolated incidences. Unfortunately they weren't. 

[seeking balance]

I think the primary reason I ignored my feelings is low self-esteem. I have a tendency to assume that my current r/s is the only one I will ever have. I also think I unconsciously crave emotionally distant girls.

Do you have a T for yourself so that you can work on establishing healthy self-esteem?

[lifeline12]

Lifeline12-

Hello and thanks for your response. I'm sorry to hear that you were so sick, but it illustrates something I believe in very much- our mental state affects our bodies. Have you ever read any books by Wayne Dyer or Eckhart Tolle?

Hi again Boatman,

Yes Ive read some from both and I enjoyed WD very much. Not a big fan of ET but that's just me. I was a little out of it yesterday and went south somewhat. If you asked my closest friends they'd all agree I was ready for a relationship as I stayed out for some time getting my life back on track and has been nearly 13  yrs since that faithful day since I put down the drink. My life prior to this relationship was full of good people, travel, mentoring, spirituality, sports but it was all something I worked on extremely hard. Reading self help books, being responsible for my actions, giving back in many ways, making amends and so on. One area I always struggled was when my closest friends who really knew me would tell me Im beautiful, giving, caring, loving,etc I thought sure your just saying that and figured they were lying. And that was how this whole thing started. Deep down I had alot of shame for the way things were growing up in an alcoholic family and I was a magnet for my waif BPD/NPD. He said all the right things and I just adored him he never yelled and I could say anything to him, he'd understand... .or so I thought. Its hard to go into detail without blaming him because that does me no good but it was horrible and I thought I could handle it. I thought I saw what was happening and I did. The infidelity, withdrawing, withholding, lying, etc and I challenged him to which he didn't really give a dam. What I didn't see is how I was deteriorating until it was to late. That's the cunning baffling part of this whole thing.

You know what saved me. Me! there was another person in this relationship I completely ignored and that was me. Now Im almost giddy to be learning about stuff I had locked away for so long yet was seeping out of every pore in my day to day life. I even saw just today another connection between how I treated my ex when he ignored me and wouldn't give me a voice. It was the same way I acted when I was small and that happened. This insight has been the gift Im slowly unwrapping and it all started with becoming vulnerable and saying hey I need help instead of thinking I wasn't worth it. Im believe my friends now because I am slowly seeing its true. It took this relationship to break me because I was one tough cookie and 5"3 of me . Allow yourself to be vulnerable with good people they will show you your worth until you can see it for yourself. Stay focus on you because the price not to is your self worth and how I see it you either start working on you now cause what you resist... .persists. Good luck my friend. ps you know I haven't shared on here for months,nor written such lengthy notes and for some reason I felt compelled to share my story with you. I figured its because I think your worth it.

[boatman]

I think the primary reason I ignored my feelings is low self-esteem. I have a tendency to assume that my current r/s is the only one I will ever have. I also think I unconsciously crave emotionally distant girls.

Do you have a T for yourself so that you can work on establishing healthy self-esteem?

I don't currently have a T. I'm working on finding one that specializes in mindfulness and trauma. And like everything nowadays, money is an issue.

I even saw just today another connection between how I treated my ex when he ignored me and wouldn't give me a voice. It was the same way I acted when I was small and that happened.

It's interesting you mention this lifeline, I decided to pay attention to a similar revelation today, which I wrote about on another board. (I say pay attention because I've truly known how my childhood has affected me, I just chose to ignore it.) I'm glad to hear you are taking care of you now. I agree that in order to have healthy relationships we have to allow ourselves to be vulnerable. In fact, it could be said that maladaptive self protection is an underlying theme of BPD. Many of us that don't have BPD work awfully hard to protect ourselves emotionally. After a while it becomes exhausting, huh?

What is the greatest thing you have learned about yourself during this journey?