Can it go Smoothly?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I met my L today for the first time. My likely BPD (w/NPD traits) stbx is living and working in another country. We have assets in both countries. We have two kids S16 and D17. We run a business together. She comes back next month for 3 weeks. She's aware that I want a divorce. I've only had email contact since 12/17. I told her it was to emotionally distressful to talk on the phone or Skype. She's emailed recently indicating that divorce may be best for us and asked me to get legal people lined up so when she's back we can work on it. My L made it clear that it is important she come back to get her served- that's step one. After that we can work on the details. Anyway, anyone out there actually have a smooth divorce or relative smooth divorce or are they pretty much all missy? I know it will happen regardless. There are just less desirable outcomes. I'm ready either way but a little hope is always helpful. Thank you.

[Jai Yen]

I met my L today for the first time. My likely BPD (w/NPD traits) stbx is living and working in another country. We have assets in both countries. We have two kids S16 and D17. We run a business together. She comes back next month for 3 weeks. She's aware that I want a divorce. I've only had email contact since 12/17. I told her it was to emotionally distressful to talk on the phone or Skype. She's emailed recently indicating that divorce may be best for us and asked me to get legal people lined up so when she's back we can work on it. My L made it clear that it is important she come back to get her served- that's step one. After that we can work on the details. Anyway, anyone out there actually have a smooth divorce or relative smooth divorce or are they pretty much all missy? I know it will happen regardless. There are just less desirable outcomes. I'm ready either way but a little hope is always helpful. Thank you.

[ForeverDad]

There's no way to predict with confidence, but typically there's more conflict and surprises than expected.  However, she may very well do 'okay' if she truly realizes that outsiders such as lawyers and others are monitoring things.  Since she does somewhat okay with her work, it may be that she'll behave herself in front of the lawyers and judge.  Also, since she's been mostly gone for years and the children are nearly grown, her need to control things may be limited.  All in all, I don't think you'll have that much of an issue with the custody aspect, but she could be a royal pain with unwinding the business and properties.  Even if she promises to behave herself so that the business continues as is, don't count on it, be sure there is an exit strategy in place.  Blame it on the lawyer, say the lawyer is insisting that an exit plan be done 'just in case'.  Let the lawyer shoulder that 'blame'.  Say 'just do it' to get the lawyer off your back.  The key word is Strategy!

Also, I suggest you work up your own idea of a reasonable division of assets.  If she does turn out to want to just sign things, someone has to be prepared with a basic framework in an electronic document for quick editing, it seems your lawyer doesn't imagine it can get done quickly but you never know, she might just want to zip through it all and have it mostly done when she's in town... .  so be prepared to move quickly just in case.

[Jai Yen]

FD thanks for the reply. My L told me my kids are old enough to decide who they want to live with. They both said they want to live with me so that's not going to be a major concern. I'm working on getting appraisals and other items in place for the division of assets. Like Matt said it's mostly just math. The two main challenges are making sure she comes back here so she can get served the divorce papers. That way I don't have to have her served in her home country which is not good. Also, if she gets flighty I still have recourse. She's scheduled to come in Feb. but if she gets advice from someone on her end they may caution her to not come and to slow down the process. The second item of main concern is our business. We invested a significant amount blood, sweat, and treasure in the business for the past 5 years and it's now producing a decent income for us. The business is a US company providing an online service in Japan. Our clients are Japanese and our business in America. Sales revenue is wired to our business account in the US. Our operating costs are in the US. We pay our agents in Japan a commission which is deducted before the money is wired to the US. I've suggested to my L that instead of her being a 50/50 partner (we get paid once everything else is paid) she can get a commission - a percentage of gross sales. This simple math might make more since to her. My gut feeling regarding the business and division of assets is if she can see the money sooner than later and the math is super simple she'll go for it. But again that's me assuming she'll find her rational self and not try to harm me and by extension the kids financially. It's a matter of her realizing that my proposal is to her best interest and it is fair. My fingers and toes are crossed that this all works out... .  

[ForeverDad]

Beware of being overly fair, overly nice, overly whatever.  Specifically, maybe your initial offer shouldn't be your final one.  She will look at any offer as "Okay, that surely isn't your best offer, I'm sure I can get lots more, so I want more."  Any business person would think that and she will not just think that, she will feel that.  So it might be good to reserve something so that you have some negotiating room.

Also, your kids are nearly grown.  Have you reserved education funds for their college or university expenses?  Should you put some money into a Trust for them that they can draw upon it when they're 21 or 25 or whatever?  If that gets established now, then you both would in effect be contributing toward that.  You might be able to 'sell' that to her as part of the divorce settlement, since you wouldn't be getting it either, the kids would be the recipients and beneficiaries.

[GaGrl]

Beware of being overly fair, overly nice, overly whatever.  Specifically, maybe your initial offer shouldn't be your final one.  She will look at any offer as "Okay, that surely isn't your best offer, I'm sure I can get lots more, so I want more."  Any business person would think that and she will not just think that, she will feel that.  So it might be good to reserve something so that you have some negotiating room.

My DH found, over the 33 years of his marriage to his ex, that her Asian approach to negotiation was entirely different from his Western view.  Don't lead with your best offer!  Keep something in reserve.

[Matt]

You have two big advantages - the kids' ages, and the fact that she lives in another country.  (That makes it more complicated but gives you other advantages.)

The difficult part is the business.  You might want to be prepared with a few simple options for her, like the one you mention - commission not profit.

If you can word it so that she is an employee or contractor - you buy her out of the business - then you could be in a position to just fire her later if she isn't productive and cooperative.

[Jai Yen]

Thanks for all the responses. My L suggested that I email my stbx a letter that makes it clear in a nonthreatening way that we've been good intellectual, business and parenting partners but that our marriage relationship is not supporting either one of us. I told my stbx that I've considered what part of our relationship we should continue and what's happening that is harming us and our kids. I said we need to shift our relationship from a married couple to intellectual partners, business partners, and parents. We have too much emotional damage from our marriage. It is hurting us both. My stbx emailed back and agreed. We then spoke by Skype for the first time in about 3 weeks. She was more stable that before and suggested that maybe we can get a divorce later. I said now is the time. Later will only prolong our hurt feelings. She wanted reassurance that she can maintain a relationship with her kids and that we can cooperate with our business - as I suggested. I'm certain she was really worried about losing face with her employer and others. Her sis and bro and law know me well and know that I've been the driving force and stability in for our family for years. They have been with my stbx for the past few days. They've influenced her to play nice with the divorce for the sake of our kids, our business and her career. My L told me not to tell her I have an L yet. I just told her that I'm seeing a T to get a handle on my own emotions etc. And that the T suggested that not every marriage is compatible but that we can decide to continue to cooperate even after a divorce. She asked if I have someone else in my life and I said no -frankly I just want to be single for quite a while (true feeling at this point). She told me she feels the same. Anyway, I seem to be making progress and I know it is far from over yet but I know my stbx wants to get on with things too. Even with her issues she is very practical and is going to look out for her best interests. I'm going to work hard to maintain boundaries with her and make it clear that we will discuss practical matters only. My L will look out for me and guide the process in terms of the biz and assets. My L is very good and has dealt with BPD from both sides. My L is considering many angles as it relates to getting a fair settlement agreement signed. I'm going for a hike in the mountains to decompress and gather my thoughts... .  

[Matt]

This sounds very encouraging, but be prepared for her to go back and forth - agreeing and then not agreeing - cooperative and then confrontational.

Make sure you work out a plan to finish the divorce without her cooperation if needed.  Know how that would work, and be prepared to offer it as an option:  "As I understand it, there are two ways to do this.  The best one, I think, is for us both to work out all the issues together, and then just submit the paperwork to the court for approval.  Or if you don't want to do that, I can file the papers, and that process will work out about the same - we'll have to have things decided through the courts instead of just by us - but it will take longer and cost more.  Which approach do you want to take?"

Almost all of us here, after we decide to end the marriage, experience stalling and changes of direction from the other party.  Best to be prepared for it so when it happens you just keep moving along the "no-cooperation" path til she changes her mind.

[ForeverDad]

The prevailing wisdom quoted here is that everyone needs to set aside time after a relationship has ended to regroup and regain equilibrium before entering a new relationship.  Usually it's the disordered person who quickly jumps into a new relationship, abandoning, rejecting and replacing before he or she can be abandoned, rejected or replaced.  That's just a generality, your case might be different.

Her asking about it indicates she's wondering what your motivation is after all these years.  Maybe she's looking, even unconsciously, for something to blame.  Best just to say it didn't work out.

If she does start a new relationship, just Let It Go.  If she's been gone for months at a time, she easily could have had other relationships and you never knew.  Maybe it's as she said and she didn't.  Doesn't matter now either way.  Sometimes the stbEx having someone else keeps the attention focused elsewhere and will give you some peace.

[Jai Yen]

Matt as usual you were right on. After the encouraging emails and Skype meeting indicating that she's ready to divorce and continue to cooperate with the kids and business she did a complete 180. In a long rambling email she basically said she wants another chance to work things out. I figured it was too good to be true her actually agreeing to a cooperative divorce. My inclination is to not respond for a few days and then email her and let her know the process has already started and that I will go through the divorce with or without her cooperation. If she doesn't cooperate it will cost more in time, money and emotional energy. This really sucks but I guess you warned me. Back to the grindstone. I'm prepared to give up our business if need be... .  It'll be hard on the kids and me financially but if that's the only option so be it. I just can't stand her at all any more and I want off this crazy train. Darn the luck... .  

[Matt]

Classic.

My wife threw an iron at me, attacked me with my guitar, tore up all my sheet music, accused me of throwing her down the stairs, told her family I wasn't giving her any money... .  then said she wanted to reconcile.  I fell for it - in fact I think she was probably very sincere in wanting to get back together, but to her that didn't include any changes on her part, like figuring out what made her do those things, and getting help so she could get her behavior under control.

The pattern these things usually follow - mine did - is that once you figure out the she-won't-cooperate plan, and start down that path, then at the last minute - we often say "on the courthouse steps" - the other party (or her attorney) will realize they should work something out, and you'll be able to get a reasonable settlement.  Unfortunately that usually means you have almost all the cost and almost all the time of going through a trial, except the trial itself.

Your best chance to get a reasonable settlement without a trial is to prepare to go to trial and win big.

[Jai Yen]

One more thought... .  Should I tell her - there is no way I can continue our marriage under any circumstances? And go on to explain cooperating vs. letting the courts and attorneys take over? I feel like responding that way because I've been dealing with this situation for months now... .  I know I need to sit back and chill out a little. Thank god she's not living with me! Anyway, the challenge is I need her to come back. I don't want to discourage her return because I need to get her served but I don't want to lead her on by saying "Sure come back we can work things out and then slam her with the divorce papers and restraining order etc... .  I know it's likely a last ditch ploy on her part hoping to "win" me back. It feels like a test of wills. Any thoughts or advice is welcome as always... .  

[Matt]

Seems to me like it would be best for you and her both - if you have decided for sure to end the marriage - to tell her that.

Instead of a threat to go to court, present it as two options - two ways to complete the process.

One way is to work out all the key issues between the two of you, and have your lawyer(s) put the agreement into the proper form, and submit that to the court.  Then the court makes it final.

The other way is to do everything through the court - you file stuff, and she files responses to the stuff you file, etc. - til everything is decided.  That will take longer and cost more, but the two processes will probably have similar results.

If you present her with those two options, she can talk to an attorney herself if she wants, and the attorney will tell her the same thing.

Make sure she understands that you have made your decision to end the marriage, and you will proceed along the no-cooperation path to get it done, but that you'd prefer the cooperation path when she's ready to do that.

You don't need to go into that now.  You can do that when she's in your town.  For now maybe you can just say, "Let's talk about that when you're here."  But you should definitely figure out a way to have her served while she is in your town.  It is unfortunate that you can't be open with her and tell her that she will be served, but if you tell her that she might hide from it and then things will take longer and be more expensive for you both.

I think one thing you are struggling with may be that you want to be fair and nice to her.  You don't want to invite her to talk and then have her served.  That's understandable.  Nobody likes to do something that might hurt someone you were once close to.  But the practical matter is that it will be best for you and the kids to get this done, and having her served is part of the process.

[Jai Yen]

I told her in an email and by Skype in clear terms it is time for us to divorce. She seemed to accept it and she agreed. Then she flip flopped later in the day. Should I again calmly remind her that the time has come for us to divorce and tell her the options you outlined Matt - cooperate vs. let the courts decide? It's still about a month before she is scheduled to come back. I gave my L the heads up that stbx flip flopped back to let's work it out and I told my L to prepare our strategy as if she is not going to cooperate. My stbx doesn't understand the process clearly. I feel I want to explain it to her in writing. Maybe if she gets an email and/or letter directly from my attorney it will become more real in her mind. Seems she can't accept the fact that it's over... .  No big surprise. BTW of course I'm willing to play along for a while to get her back here so she can be served. I still hold out hope that her practical, self-preservation instinct will kick in and she come back knowing that it's time to sign papers and move on with things... .  

[Matt]

I wouldn't keep talking to her, just tell her, "Let's talk about this when you're here."

Have your lawyer prepare to act with or without her support.  A letter from him explaining the process might be helpful (to both you and your wife).  He may be reluctant to do that, because attorneys are only supposed to advise the one who pays them.  But if he writes you a letter explaining how the process works - if there is a settlement and if there isn't - then maybe you could just give her a copy of that.  (But ask him if that will cause any problems, like breaching the attorney/client privilege or something like that.)

(By the way, I'm not an attorney, and nobody here can give you legal advice.  We're just sharing stories... .  )

As my case proceeded, it became more and more clear that talking with my ex slowed things down, and moving forward with the legal process didn't slow things down.  We literally settled less than 24 hours before our trial was scheduled, and my kids were younger than yours (8 and 10) so it wasn't a slam-dunk custody decisions like yours will be.  The settlement we reached could have been reached a year earlier at much lower cost if she had been willing (and able) to bargain in good faith.  (Or if her attorney was ethical and acting in her client's best interests.)

[Jai Yen]

Thanks Matt. I understand the purpose of this forum. No worries there. All of you folks who have navigated these rough seas have a wealth of tips and advice that I carefully consider. The legal stuff I'll leave up to my L. Anyway, after my stbx flip flopped from agreeing to divorce to not wanting to I simply emailed her back and told her I cannot talk to her by Skype or phone only email. It is too emotional. We can talk when you come to (my hometown). Just keeping it simple is likely better. Haven't heard back from my L yet but our initial meeting lasted 5 hours. My L has some information to processing to do.

[Jai Yen]

My stbx's response was that she can not return to my hometown so I can get her served. She said she has health problems and plans to take 6 months off from the university she works at. I told her clearly that under no circumstances can I remain married to her. The emotional damage to me is done. I explained the 2 options in terms of the divorce process - work together and get it done sooner and for less money or let the courts work it out. I told her it is time for her to understand and take responsibility for her life and future. I reminded her that if we cooperate she can maintain her career, enjoy additional income from our business, have assets, and enjoy a good relationship with her kids. If she makes it super difficult the outcome will be much less ideal. I'm meeting my L again on Monday. I can't wait!

[hell0kitty]

The only thing I've really noticed about our BPD is that if she doesn't feel like it is her idea, she will be against it, even if what we are asking for is what she mention a few weeks before.  It is that control thing.  They feel like if you bring it up, they are losing control.

[Matt]

Did she say, "I can't come back there so you can have me served."?

Or did she only say, "I won't come back there as I planned."?

What I mean is, did she add 2 plus 2 and figure out you would have her served?

Will she stay in the other country or visit somewhere else in the US?

What if she stays in the other country - what's the process for divorcing someone who isn't in the US anymore?

I know if the person is in prison you can get a divorce anyway, even if they don't agree.  I think there must be a process to do it if she stays in another country.  That's probably your main plan for now - she won't cooperate and won't come to your town so she can't be served.  It might take longer, but it may actually be simpler and less drama that way.

But having a business together with her - maybe that won't be affected - you can still continue to work together as you have?

[Jai Yen]

I wrote her an email describing the process. No fault state, equitable distribution state, and that a divorce ends the marriage but the couple may have ongoing legal arrangements related to child support, assest division, operation of a business etc... .  I told her that after she accepted and agreed that it is best to divorce (which she did in an email and by Skype) that I hired a family law attorney to help with the process. I suggested that her sister come back with her to give her support. I used as nonthreatening language as I possibly could. I outlined briefly the basis 2 choices for our business - continue or end it. She responded by saying we need to talk. She would leave the emotions out of the discussion. Well, I agreed to Skype her as long as her sister was also on Skype with us. Fine, I again in a calm voice described the process. Let her know that it is infinitely better if we cooperate. She seemed to get it. Then she asked to speak to our S16. She asked him if he knew that it was me that wants a divorce not her and then basically did the emotional dump on him. He just sat there and said said "I see" and "OK" etc. This went on for a 15 minutes or so. Then I intervened and told her that her son is not a councilor and that the conversation was over. She, of course, did not even ask how he was doing or about his life just rambling on about her desire to have a nice family life etc... .  She at one point said she's taking 6 months off and coming back next week. Then at one point said she has no reason to come back in Feb. just mail the divorce papers and she'll sign in Japan etc... .  She asked me point blank if when she comes back if I will be in our house so we can have dinner together etc... .  I told her my L told me not to do that until after the divorce is finalized. I told her I would stay somewhere else when she is here. I felt that I have to tell her. I was told strictly not to be alone with her. It is dangerous for me. Frankly, until all of this is finalized I don't want her alone with the kids either. She is too volatile. I made it clear to my L that I am willing to walk away from the business and to divorce her w/o her cooperation. Seems it will go that way. I really, really tried to create a cooperative, face saving situation for her. At first she recognizes it and acknowledges it but she quickly deteriorates back to the usual blame game and distortion campaign while discussing this with our kids. I knew divorce from her would be no walk in the park but this is beyond belief. I let her know that I'm not talking to her via Skype or phone. She can email questions to me and I will answer them. Just need to vent this... .  The process has started. It's going to be a long haul I'm afraid.

[Matt]

So... .  what are the steps you can take, if she doesn't cooperate in any way?

What if she doesn't come back soon so you can have her served - how will you move forward?

[Rose1]

Please reconsider leaving the house. It is up to her to find accommodation - if you leave the house you may come back to a wreck, your papers gone etc etc and if the kids are there with her you already know what will happen - constant dumping on them regarding the divorce. Save yourselves the hassle. If necessary pay for a hotel room for her - it's cheaper in the long run.

Rose

[Matt]

Please reconsider leaving the house. It is up to her to find accommodation - if you leave the house you may come back to a wreck, your papers gone etc etc and if the kids are there with her you already know what will happen - constant dumping on them regarding the divorce. Save yourselves the hassle. If necessary pay for a hotel room for her - it's cheaper in the long run.

Rose

I agree with this.

Why would you leave your own home so someone who doesn't live there can be there with your kids?

What if she decides not to leave?

I wouldn't let her into your home at all.  Meet in a public place with other people around, so if she melts down you can't be accused of anything.

[Jai Yen]

I agree with not allowing her to stay at my house with my kids. Too disruptive for them and a chance that she'll either squat here or damage things to spite me. As for what I'm doing to prepare - I've told my L that I can walk away from the business and that I'm OK with figuring out how to have her served in her home country. My L also agreed that it is best that I make it clear to her that the divorce is not negociable and reveal the process to her so she has time to digest it. I refuse to "set a trap" and encourage her to come back and meet with a marriage councilor etc... .  just so she comes back. I'd rather go the more expensive route than do that. It is not in me and I want to spare the kids the possibility of some huge drama where she ends up drunk and in the hospital where I need to pay to have her cared for. The options are narrowing. I need to continue on as if she's not going to cooperate. I'm willing to continue to pay our employees to keep our business in operation until April 1... .  That's D-day. After that I'm unwilling. In other words if I can not count on income from the business I can not afford to continue to pay our employees and other fixed costs. It's an online curriculum used by schools in Japan to teach students English. If I pulled the servers and lay off our tech team it will create a very bad outcome in Japan. Of course any outstanding school clients will continue to have their curriculum installs in place but any new business will be thrown away... .  This for me is more painful that the divorce by far. Her non sister is my contact person for our agents. She made it clear that if her sis my stbx is not involved with our business she will not betray stbx. I feel her sister understands clearly that it is stbx that is the cause of all this kaos but blood's thicker than water. I understand and accept this. At least I'm hoping that her sister can talk some since into her. Her sister told me about stbx hitting their mother and ODing on Skype. My more mid-range concern is money. I have enough to get the kids and me through this year and if I dip into my retirement fund next year. If our business goes under this year I'll have to sell some real estate to keep us out of trouble - which is difficult w/o stbx's permission but there are legal ways to do so. I'm already thinking about what I can do next to make income. I have a lot of ideas and contacts. I'll keeping working on how to reinvent myself and how I can make money in the future. Makes it hard though when there is some much uncertainty at the moment. I just want to get on with this.

[Matt]

Could you continue the business til the end of the semester, and then end it?  And then start a new business doing the same thing in time for the next semester?

[theodore]

I knew divorce from her would be no walk in the park but this is beyond belief.

This is important!  Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.  It can get worse, much worse.  I think you are telling your STBX too much.  This is war and you are showing your cards to your enemy.  Learn to practice Radio Silence. 

I'll have to sell some real estate to keep us out of trouble - which is difficult w/o stbx's permission but there are legal ways to do so.

Can you sell the real estate before you file the divorce papers?  In CA, once the divorce process has started, each party is precluded from selling any assets.

[Jai Yen]

Just talked to my L who looked into serving someone in a foreign country. Not pretty - expensive and complicated. I need to get her to come back here even if it slows the process down. Also, I don't want her to file in her country against me. Might not mean much but it can make it harder for me to keep the process moving forward. My L's just laying out worse cases. One she's served things will go much more smoothly. I need to reopen communication with her. I've been consistent (never nasty) with letting her know its time divorce but I need to slow the process down a bit and encourage her to come back. I agree that now is not the time to keep her informed about the process. It gives her to much knowledge and makes her more likely to take counter measures just to make my life more difficult... .  

[livednlearned]

I had to use the element of surprise in filing for divorce, too. At the time, I felt terribly guilty, but looking back, and seeing the pattern of self-sabotaging behavior that N/BPDxh displayed (often motivated by breathtaking spite), I think the element of surprise was actually the most compassionate thing I could have done. When BPD and divorce are involved, I think you are actually doing them a great favor to keep your cards close.

[Matt]

So you can wait and see if she comes to your town soon, as planned.  If she does, have her served.

If she doesn't then proceed the other path - have her served where she lives.

[Jai Yen]

She's coming back to my town. I do indeed feel guilty because I've told her we need marriage counseling to work on our communication skills when she's back to have any hope of fixing our marriage... .  I'll likely have her served just after her arrival. I have compassion but I only need to think of some of the stuff she's pulled through the years to remind myself the the compassion I need is self-compassion. The uncertainty of how she will react is grinding on me a bit. I'll work with my L to get everything set up so we know how to respond to her response to getting served. My L explained the process - 21 days to respond to the service. 30 days of discovery. 21 days to respond to our proposal etc. The important bit of info was if she doesn't play nice and just gets unregulated and returns to her home country I can sell assets to pay living expenses. I needed to know that she could not prevent that by delaying just to hurt me and as an extension our kids. My S16 & D17 are fine with whatever I decide. They feel it is time to move on as well. about 3 more weeks to the big day... .