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Author Topic: Time-outs and leaving infants behind  (Read 931 times)
ZigZiglar
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« on: January 02, 2013, 08:57:04 PM »

I've made it clear to my wife that I will not tolerate aggressive/abusive behavior in our home. I've told her that shouting and conflict is not just bad for us, but bad for the emotional development of the children. I've told her that in the event where it occurs, I will be removing myself and the children from it.

The issue is, how? I have a two year old and a 9 month old who is breast fed (feeds mostly at night). Her rages usually occur after the two year old is asleep (and often wake him). I end up in a position where I can't decide if leaving alone is safe for the kids (she gets very angry and there is a good chance the kids would be either neglected or used as ammunition, or if the anger subsides once I'm gone, she'll likely withdraw and the consequences could be just as bad) or if taking them with me (waking them up or taking them away from their only comfort [breast feeding]) is just as bad.

I don't want to drag the kids into it unnecessarily if I can just leave. The reason why I haven't left in the past is due to the threats and ultimatums I receive forcing me to stay if I want her or the kids to be there when I get back. etc I will no longer let her threats or my fears dictate my decisions, but the choice is more complicated than that now.

A couple of weeks ago, I had the 9 month old and was going to leave (she almost resorted to getting physically violent in order to take the baby from me), but she'd only recently arrived home from hospital and all the baby's clothes were packed in such a chaotic manner that I couldn't find anything quickly enough to leave (he was naked as it was a reasonably warm evening).

I'm thinking I should have a "secret escape bag" packed ready for emergencies, but I'm still not sure whether taking the baby away from his breast milk at night (when he generally relies on it) or waking the two year old would be fair on them. The alternatives could or could not be worse. I also don't know where I would actually go, as my friends live hours away now.

Any ideas?
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Blazing Star
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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2013, 05:29:24 AM »

Hi ZigZiglar,

This is a Tough One!

I think its great you are working on this boundary, can you just clarify what you think would happen if you left either by yourself, or with the two year old? Do you fear she may harm (either intentionally or unintentionally the baby?)

Would it be possible to talk with her about this during a calm time?

Remember that not only are you dealing with the BPD etc stuff, but also she has some pretty intense hormones going on too (i.e. most women are biologically primed to react pretty strongly when someone takes their dependent/breastfed baby away from them), so it makes it more complicated. You need to think about which is stronger, her BPD or her mama hormones.

I think only you can answer this, if you truly believe that she will harm the baby then there is no question, you must take him (yes have a bag packed, does she express milk - you could keep a bottle in the freezer, or use formula - not the 'comfort' of mum I know but if the alternative is risk harm then that is the greater issue). And if you think that her mama hormones will rule over the BPD (and the baby is safe) then just take the two year old.

If this is too hard to answer then you could take a different approach. Maybe a time-out doesn't have to mean leaving the house if this is not an option. You can just calmly state that you are not going to engage when she is angry, that you are going to go and do X and you will talk to her when everyone has calmed down. Then you build a wall around yourself, stand strong and let this strength and love radiate from your core.

What would happen if you stayed in the room like this?

What would happen if you went in another room and busied yourself doing something?

Or shut the door?

Or sat in the car?

What is your living situation at the moment? Are you still living with your parents? If so I imagine this complicates things a bit further?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Love Blazing Star

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yeeter
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2013, 07:45:21 AM »

Some great questions by Star, and a really tough situation Zig.



Removing yourself from the situation to reduce the conflict and let her calm down is good - by going to another room, refusing to engage unless calm, etc.  Leaving the house, and taking a mothers newborn baby with them - would freak out and deregulate ANY mother!.

Of course if there is any hint that she would physically harm the child, you DO need to protect it.  And at the same time if this is even a possibility, perhaps its time to get some help via children protective services.

Do you believe there is real threat/risk to the child?

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ZigZiglar
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2013, 04:51:57 PM »

Hi ZigZiglar,

This is a Tough One!

I think its great you are working on this boundary, can you just clarify what you think would happen if you left either by yourself, or with the two year old? Do you fear she may harm (either intentionally or unintentionally the baby?)

Unintentionally. Possibly. Her children are her world, but often at the best of times she has difficulty identifying hazards and preventing danger. The hospital where she stayed submitted a report to our Child Protection Services that outlined this issue. With the baby recently crawling, there are many dangers around and he had so many preventable accidents while in the hospital's care. If she became dissociative or withdrawn, as she often does when she is stuck with only herself to be angry at, these risks increase substantially.

My other concern is that she may decide to leave the home. When she has episodes (especially when they involve anger/blame towards me, she often feels the need to "disappear" with the kids or sometimes, when she feels particularly self loathing, she decides everyone would be better off without her and either gets suicidal or has the urge to disappear alone.

Would it be possible to talk with her about this during a calm time?

Such a time could possibly arise, but I feel at this point in time it would be digging up a preventable hostile situation. The children are a major vulnerable spot for her.


Remember that not only are you dealing with the BPD etc stuff, but also she has some pretty intense hormones going on too (i.e. most women are biologically primed to react pretty strongly when someone takes their dependent/breastfed baby away from them), so it makes it more complicated. You need to think about which is stronger, her BPD or her mama hormones.

I think only you can answer this, if you truly believe that she will harm the baby then there is no question, you must take him (yes have a bag packed, does she express milk - you could keep a bottle in the freezer, or use formula - not the 'comfort' of mum I know but if the alternative is risk harm then that is the greater issue). And if you think that her mama hormones will rule over the BPD (and the baby is safe) then just take the two year old.

You are not wrong. As stated in the above paragraph, I feel the danger is only indirect - and her mothering instinct is the core motivation for her existence. I'm still left in a position where I'm unsure if the baby is completely safe though. My wife hasn't been alone with the baby since she was discharged from hospital (she was actually supposed to be transferred, but refused), as my parents have been on School holidays.

What would happen if you stayed in the room like this?

What would happen if you went in another room and busied yourself doing something?

Or shut the door?

Or sat in the car?

If things were already dysregulated, she would follow me at every turn until I either fought back or until I begged her forgiveness and conceded all blame for whatever it is she's raging about. Once I did lock myself in my bedroom (as she often does when she storms off after blasting me) and she used a screwdriver to remove the lock and come in and continue her abusive rampage. Once I did leave the children behind (my parents were home - it was after dark) and she stalked me the whole time I was walking off and ambushed me in a park to continue the abuse!

I don't think the time-out would work unless I was able to go far away enough for her to not follow.

What is your living situation at the moment? Are you still living with your parents? If so I imagine this complicates things a bit further?

She moved back to a friend's house last night. Not because of her, not because of me, but because of my father. He lost the plot over guests coming over for dinner and him not being asked (she asked my mum though!) and lectured her with extreme overbearing anger (which frightened her to no end) over respect etc. He has his own host of mental illness problems. I recommended she leave for a couple of nights as she deserves to feel safe, but I have a feeling it will be a permanent arrangement until settlement for our own house (two months).

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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2013, 05:03:20 PM »

Given her mental health status, this would be where you need to investigate what services your county provides, esp given they are fully aware of her condition and the danger it presents to her being a mother. Disassociating when a toddler is awake and free to crawl is scary... .  

I suggest county services because they can advice you on protective services, possible safe zones, alternative care givers, how to get a hold of services in the middle of the night, what will happen to the children, etc.
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2013, 05:34:57 PM »

I can see how you can't leave her alone with small ones like this, my partner also gets tunnel minded when she flips out. It would be dangerous.

So leaving them with her when she seriously flips out is not an option.

Isolating yourself while not physically leaving is not easy, and still leaves toddlers vulnerable if you cant directly monitor. The drive to "get at you" while you are still there is egged on.

Does the baby use formula at all? Maybe you will need to think about introducing it for this very reason but dont make it obvious.

Otherwise you may have to accept that this is not a boundary that you can draw yet, except under extreme circumstances when you may very well have to seek child care services or travel greater distances to get support. New born will not stay as dependent for much longer

As you know you can't put boundaries in place unless you have a clear plan of follow through, that just makes things worse. Empty threats undermine everything
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ZigZiglar
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« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2013, 06:54:49 PM »

Given her mental health status, this would be where you need to investigate what services your county provides, esp given they are fully aware of her condition and the danger it presents to her being a mother. Disassociating when a toddler is awake and free to crawl is scary... .  

I suggest county services because they can advice you on protective services, possible safe zones, alternative care givers, how to get a hold of services in the middle of the night, what will happen to the children, etc.

We already have DHS (Department of Human Services - Child Protection) involved - I liaise with them from time to time or when incidents occur - and the Community Mental Health Services, who aren't 24 hours and really only have the resources to respond to severe crises/emergencies - such as pulling strings at hospitals to get her a bed, arranging an escort etc.

DHS have given me a 24 hours phone number that I can call in emergencies and it was their suggestion that I remove the children from abusive outbursts, so I guess they have some kind of support system in place (probably emergency accommodation or something, which I'd rather avoid at all costs).

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ZigZiglar
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« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2013, 07:06:02 PM »

I can see how you can't leave her alone with small ones like this, my partner also gets tunnel minded when she flips out. It would be dangerous.

So leaving them with her when she seriously flips out is not an option.

Isolating yourself while not physically leaving is not easy, and still leaves toddlers vulnerable if you cant directly monitor. The drive to "get at you" while you are still there is egged on.

Does the baby use formula at all? Maybe you will need to think about introducing it for this very reason but dont make it obvious.

Otherwise you may have to accept that this is not a boundary that you can draw yet, except under extreme circumstances when you may very well have to seek child care services or travel greater distances to get support. New born will not stay as dependent for much longer

As you know you can't put boundaries in place unless you have a clear plan of follow through, that just makes things worse. Empty threats undermine everything

It's a hard call, because generally I think she is a fantastic mother who would sacrifice every minute of her day to provide for them. In fact allowing no room for herself is a part of why things got so bad for her. Since I enforced a boundary involving the toddler going to daycare and encouraged her to allow me to care for the baby so she can rediscover herself, things have been improving. The hospital mostly worked on reinforcing that she has a right to put herself first from time to time, to look after her needs, and that it is not a blatant failure to ask for help; that the kids can be cared for and loved by others etc

Anyway - yes, this is a difficult boundary to enforce. The event that occurred where I was close to leaving was significant enough for me to follow through with, I was just ill prepared. However, she didn't get the impression that I would have backed down as the reason I didn't leave (as far as she sees it) is because she stopped directing her aggression at me and withdrew into a suicidal state of mind, so I stuck around to keep her safe/calm her down. So as far as she is concerned, if it happens again, I will leave.

I guess that brings me to another point - the risk of grevious self harm or suicide will become very real if I take the kids away from her and leave her on her own to brood. I know that shouldn't interfere with protecting the children, which is the priority in these situations, but losing their mother is hardly protecting them either.

Early intervention is obviously going to be the key - ie time-outs BEFORE she becomes too dysregulated to soothe herself or become incapable of caring for the kids, but things escalate soo quickly and it's so hard to predict. For example, the event that triggered her last time was that there was some mould on a pram that hadn't been used since she went into hospital. According to her, I should've noticed it (as I walked past it daily) and cleaned it. I took every effort to validate her, but the positive spin-offs I used to try and re-direct the conversation were interpreted as invalidation and things just spiraled from there. So yeah, impossible to predict.
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waverider
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« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2013, 08:22:31 PM »

I guess that brings me to another point - the risk of grevious self harm or suicide will become very real if I take the kids away from her and leave her on her own to brood. I know that shouldn't interfere with protecting the children, which is the priority in these situations, but losing their mother is hardly protecting them either.

Problem here is that becomes a vicious circle as that becomes a proven means of keeping you there. It is  circle/threat that has to be broken. perhaps a chat with suicide prevention helplines may give some guidance on how to proceed.  If you enforce other boundaries it will start to become her only form of leverage and thus more likely.

Just like leaving is a bottom like boundary for a partner, suicide threats are a bottom line grapple for pwBPD,. I am sure we have all come across that one. Sometimes it takes a serious self harm episode or two to provide that "rock bottom" scenario needed to take the problem seriously. Self harm is often an impulse reaction, whereas suicide is a longer build of hopelessness.

If you do leave then add in a promise of regular call back times, lessons the abandonment issues.
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« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2013, 09:11:02 PM »

Our if you completely believe her threats to hurt herself, then call the professionals in. That "is" what they are trained to do - evaluate, monitor, diagnose, and treat. Since suicidal services is already involved i would ask them to help you develop a safety plan that protects everyone, you, children, and her.

You aren't in an easy position.

Ask for all the support and help you can get.
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Blazing Star
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« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2013, 03:47:56 AM »

Would it be possible to talk with her about this during a calm time?

Such a time could possibly arise, but I feel at this point in time it would be digging up a preventable hostile situation. The children are a major vulnerable spot for her.

What is your living situation at the moment? Are you still living with your parents? If so I imagine this complicates things a bit further?

She moved back to a friend's house last night. Not because of her, not because of me, but because of my father. He lost the plot over guests coming over for dinner and him not being asked (she asked my mum though!) and lectured her with extreme overbearing anger (which frightened her to no end) over respect etc. He has his own host of mental illness problems. I recommended she leave for a couple of nights as she deserves to feel safe, but I have a feeling it will be a permanent arrangement until settlement for our own house (two months).

Has she taken both the children with her? Does this feel okay? Is her friend capable of keeping an eye on her if she has the children? Are you able to see them most days?

And then re talking to her during this time, I understand that the children are a vulnerable spot for her, perhaps this could work in your favour, and appeal to the side of her that Knows that sometimes her children need to feel safe and secure and sometimes she is unable to do this? Like appealing to the best in her? Do you think she would hear this?

DHS have given me a 24 hours phone number that I can call in emergencies and it was their suggestion that I remove the children from abusive outbursts, so I guess they have some kind of support system in place (probably emergency accommodation or something, which I'd rather avoid at all costs).

This is great that you have this number, I totally hear that you wish to avoid this at all costs, but would it be a possibility to use this as a boundary? Obviously you have to be willing to follow through of course, but could this be an option instead of time-outs? "When you rage/don't allow me to take a timeout/I feel it is not in the kids best interest to leave them with you... .  I will call this number". Could this help the situations where she withdraws and gets suicidal?

It's a hard call, because generally I think she is a fantastic mother who would sacrifice every minute of her day to provide for them. In fact allowing no room for herself is a part of why things got so bad for her. Since I enforced a boundary involving the toddler going to daycare and encouraged her to allow me to care for the baby so she can rediscover herself, things have been improving. The hospital mostly worked on reinforcing that she has a right to put herself first from time to time, to look after her needs, and that it is not a blatant failure to ask for help; that the kids can be cared for and loved by others etc

... .  

Early intervention is obviously going to be the key - ie time-outs BEFORE she becomes too dysregulated to soothe herself or become incapable of caring for the kids, but things escalate soo quickly and it's so hard to predict. For example, the event that triggered her last time was that there was some mould on a pram that hadn't been used since she went into hospital. According to her, I should've noticed it (as I walked past it daily) and cleaned it. I took every effort to validate her, but the positive spin-offs I used to try and re-direct the conversation were interpreted as invalidation and things just spiraled from there. So yeah, impossible to predict.

Awesome that you are helping her to take time for herself! And yes to early intervention, and the continual validating. ZigZiglar, it is obvious you care for her. Your situation is very challenging, and you are doing great and asking all the right things.

I really feel for you 

Love Blazing Star
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