Shame

[Lady31]

Just curious if your pwBPD ever admitted/said they felt shame or were ashamed of themselves.  If so, did they verbalize why?

[really]

Not in my experince... .  never verbalised it.    Said (once) she had treated me badly... .  but not to me... .  to my friend who she did not like. 

[Take2]

Yes... .  my on/of exBPDbf has admitted shame to me... .  fairly recently.  But it was only during a traumatic day for him (prompted by absolutely nothing - at least nothing that occurred in reality) - and when he was raging at me about I can't even remember what - for some reason I told him to look in the mirror at himself and stop accusing me of doing things I'm not doing.  He actually responded with shame over being a cheater.  I suspect not just with and on me, but throughout his adult life.  And of course the only way for him to handle that pain was to shove me out of his life.

Until the next day... .    and then pull back in... .  

[Washisheart]

Going through that right now. He is going through a stage of deep remorse for what he has put everyone through.

[tuum est61]

Lady31,

I am curious as to why you are asking whether our pwBPD feel shame?  Is it important to you that they at least admit to - if not atone for - their "bad" actions?  From what you understand about BPD, do you think such an admission is ever likely or if made, sincere?

My uBPDw will say sorry for smaller items (ie mistakes of fact or small insensitivities) but she does not acknowledge at all that the difficulties she has in her relationships are a result of her reactions/responses - or in fact that she has ever caused hurt to anyone else. 

I somewhat hope for some sort of recognition, but I have learned to try not to let that affect the choices/responsibilities I make regarding our relationship.  I don't think it will ever come without a whole lot of therapy. 

[Lady31]

Thanks for your replies.

Tuum,

Just interested.  No, I do not feel like that they need to "atone" for their actions or to admit it for any gain for myself regarding decisions in the relationship.

Seeing some of the behaviors from different pwBPD interests me greatly.  As I have dealt with BPD & my H over the last couple years - I realize that I myself had strong BPD traits when I was younger.  (late teens to mid twenties)

Some I did not have - but the core fears, reactions, etc I exhibited.  Interesting thing was - I went through a horrible relationship with my "first love" for about 6 years off and on.  He would leave the relationship constantly and during those years I studied a lot of psychology & read "self help" books.  I actually started recognizing behaviors in myself (not in relation to BPD at the time -  more each isolated behavior).  It took some years, but I am NOTHING like that now.

The shame & rejection connection stirs my interest.  My personal belief is that many of these people exhibiting these different behaviors, depending on the level of self awareness POSSIBLE - can overcome this with a much better outcome than is often thought.  Anyway - just my own personal curiousity.

I think it is definitely possible for a person to behave much like a pwBPD but have a MUCH more conscience awareness than most nons realize.  For instance - I knew each time I was turning things in the conversation around to distract.  I knew when I started fights about things off topic or out of proportion to the issue what the real thing was that I was afraid of or upset about (but would not verbalize).  Instead of saying "this hurts me" or "I'm afraid you are doing this or don't love me bc of your behavior" and talking through an issue - I would get extremely defensive and anger was a more comfortable emotion for me. 

Also, I did not want to look like some pathetic weak person that was undesirable - so when something upset me or made me feel "unloved" (and some were ridiculous - I was just way over sensitive and had no self esteem) I would curse, call names, scream, throw things, stalk, say how I was too good for him, tell him how horrible he was, and then take the initiative to break things off as a defense mechanism because I felt powerless and vulnerable and it was my way of getting that power back (felt sorry later & pulled back in).

The other interesting thing - I had a person I would see every time we broke it off after a certain point in the relationship.  (I was not a serial partner person though.)  I would go back to this same guy many times when my ex would break up with me and start sleeping with other women (that part WAS true - he was quite the playboy).  With this guy I would behave much the same way.  Only for different reasons. Again, I was very aware of my manipulations and the calculated behavior.  With him I would turn things around and have the big fights too.  He was RIGHT for his complaints about my behavior and lack of giving in the relationship.  It made him feel like he wasn't a priority - because he wasn't!  I was using him to help me feel ok while I was heartbroken over the other guy!  I would still turn everything around on him though - because DUH, I wasn't going to admit that!

I would also break it off with him - but that happened when I was too disgusted to stay with him (as I never really loved him and his neediness began to disgust me) or when I was ready to go back to my ex (or should I say when my ex would actually get back with me - I would constantly try to reconnect with the ex behind the "filler guy's" back.)  So basically I behaved in much similar ways between them, but my motives behind the actions were different.

I was young, shallow and immature.  I had no self esteem, huge abandonment fear & felt rejection to the core.  I was molested as a child - I had a raging father who was very verbally abusive - and on and on.

Again, I am NOTHING like that now and feel no embarrassment admiting to these things. 

I think for me, I was still able to connect cognitively about what was really going on.  I don't know if I would have been considered "BPD", I just know that the behavior mechanisms were very similar.  Perhaps I would have been a person with just strong BPD traits. 

Regardless - Personally I think the difference is the level of shame.  If the shame/low self esteem is so great that they cannot face it on any level or they will be totally shattered that they split off from that on a conscience level (which is what seems to be conveyed in reading some on BPD) then they obviously have much less chance of facing it and making any real change.

However - I also think that there can be some pretty strong BPD traits exhibited and that person has a very clear idea of what they are doing and have not split so far in shame that they could not realize it.  Frankly - it was the pain of having horrible relationships that prompted me to want to change things and be a different person and one that operated in love with strong character. 

It may have also been the Lord that compelled me to change.

Just rambling now.    It's just all very interesting to me.

[Lady31]

Oh, and crazy that it was all this self reflection & growing that I did over the years that made me want to try even harder with H when I first started seeing the emotional signs.

I tried even harder to be compassionate and the person that didn't just bail because he seemed "crazy" - the person who understood him and would stand by him through it all.  Simply because I could understand that extreme irrational abandonment/rejection fear.

Of course, that was before I knew about BPD in itself and thought that all people, in the right circumstances, could overcome those fears the same way I did - I assumed he was the same way I was.  I tried to be the person to him that I thought would have helped me to come out of it.  I finally realized I was dealing with a different level entirely between the two of us.

[tuum est61]

Oh, and crazy that it was all this self reflection & growing that I did over the years that made me want to try even harder with H when I first started seeing the emotional signs.

I tried even harder to be compassionate and the person that didn't just bail because he seemed "crazy" - the person who understood him and would stand by him through it all.  Simply because I could understand that extreme irrational abandonment/rejection fear.

Of course, that was before I knew about BPD in itself and thought that all people, in the right circumstances, could overcome those fears the same way I did - I assumed he was the same way I was.  I tried to be the person to him that I thought would have helped me to come out of it.  I finally realized I was dealing with a different level entirely between the two of us.

How has this realization changed your approach to your pwBPD?

[Lady31]

Tuum,

Thanks for asking.    Many ways - I let go of the savior complex and that I have no business trying to be "God" in his life.  I realized I can only be a helpmate in his life, but it was not my job to save him.  And I COULDN'T save him. 

That his problems say nothing bad about me... .  that my inability to save him says nothing bad about me. 

That there is a difference between helping & supporting someone & enabling.

That all his issues have nothing to do with me or my response to him/something I've done - they come from within himself.

That I can focus on being whole myself - and finding what my role in his life is on this journey with me being in THAT place.

I am also learning much more about spiritual roots when it comes to emotional/mental problems.  I personally have a much different view on BPD & all other disorders.  This whole "it's next to impossible" attitude is laughable to me when I look at the creation made by our God.  The Lord knows exactly the core issues that have caused a person to be so sick in their soul.  And He knows how to heal them.  This is not some crazy thing that is way outside of his understanding or ability.

For myself - holding this belief - I had to reconcile it with the fact that my H at this time is NOT whole in his soul. 

There are many aspects to why this is so I have found through counsel, study & prayer - and am still learning & seeking.  There is a spiritual root to everything... .   

There is also an answer and a way out - I believe the answer is finding the way to the Answer.

[Shaktipat]

My husband has mentioned shame a couple of times,  mostly when he has been very angry,  as in "SHAME, SHAME on that person for doing whatever it was! Only when he is angry though,  and he says it very vehemently. He hasn't ever talked about himself having any shame though.

[Seb]

My exgf never admitted to feeling "shame"... .  but she hated herself, loathed herself for being gay. She'd tried not to be but she couldn't help it. She thought it was "unnatural, abnormal, wrong and weird". All her words about herself being gay.

We once watched a programme where the wife reached over and placed a pillow over her face during sex - my ex-girlfriend did this quite often, I'd always pull it off her face - and the sex therapist said that this action was related to the wife's inner "shame". My exgf didn't like it when she heard that, she turned to me and said she didn't know why she did it. 

[spaceace]

My wife sent me an email about TOXIC SHAME that her therapist had her read while in therapy... I found it odd he would present something like this to her. She has often talked about TOXIC SHAME and how she felt it. If her therapist indeed "got her" as she would often say, having her read this poem as it's called, it seemed counter-intuitive to me, that he presented this to her.

When I read the poem, I was appalled. I don't know any other way to put it. It was a horrific poem. And she related to it more so that anything I have ever seen her connect with. It actually scared me somewhat. It was only a couple of weeks later we split up and she went NC with me. 

I looked back at this event and at the same time, she was contacted by her mother who she swears is BPD and her sister who is according to her is NPD and this rattled her deeply.

I really think, looking back, the poem, her mother and sister contacting her, all lead to some sort of disengaging from me and going NC. I think all this really hit her core shame she has always talked about and related to so deeply for her.

[rollercoaster24]

Hi all,

An interesting topic, shame... Very deep...

I know it in myself very well, and then I can also see it in my uBP male partner when he splits occasionally...

I see a lot of the stuff that he presently does relates to his shame about what he has done, (what he cannot bring himself to understand, is that if you make a real effort to change your ways, with esteem for yourself and the things you do, a lot of that shame goes away).

Your soul finds some semblance of peace... .  

Unfortunately for my partner, he is in so much pain, that it is easier for him to stay stuck in denial, and bury his own head in the sand. So much easier than to take a personal inventory, and awareness, realising that just because he thinks it and feels it, does not necessarily make it true...

Right now, I feel like leaving him in hell... He seems to be much happier staying there and burning...

[TeaAmongRoses]

My BPDxh did not talk about feeling shame. He would apologize however once and a while.

I have felt a lot of shame but I don't think it is "justified" remorse for hurting others, but more like feeling I'm flawed as a person which I believe is a result of being neglected or abused as a child. Shame is what results, I think, sometimes, from having parents who are BPD (w/NPD traits) or being abused in a relationship.

Shame, for me, doesn't make me act out towards others, but rather retreat, feel depressed, axious, low energy and just wish I could dissapear. Accepting myself as OKAY and worthy of my love and affection is the antidode. But I need to be told externally that I'm OKAY which is why I rely occasionally on therapists, support groups, etc.

[Peace4ME]

My dBPDbf is very shameful. Shameful about who he is and what he has done to people and himself. This goes away briefly when he is dysregulated and can't handle those feelings. He will then project and blame, but its really only because he is so overwhelmed by his emotions at that moment. Not too long after that, he is back to being very aware of what he did and feeling bad for it.

He did a lot more of the blaming and projection before he started getting therapy.

[FoolishOne]

The only shame my dBPDw ever exhibited was when she reflects in the past several years (before we were married), and then only referred to her immediate family.  Her affair hurt them but somehow the pain she inflicted on me goes without much gravity.