Accountability

[OTH]

N =12, compared to 12 placebo.

Hypothesis generating, at best.

I believe the first study was done in 1998. Plenty of MRI studies of BPD patients the last 14 years with similar results.   

Does this upset you? Why? Do you need to feel that your ex is evil in order to move on? Why can't we just look at what we went through and decide that we can do better than this? Why did this effect us so bad? None of this means that some of our exs might just be bad people too. BPD are humans. Many are sure to be just bad people along with having a mental illness. Yikes.

[BentNotBroken]

I like to look at my BPDexGF and her illness this way, it helps me detach:

Jeffrey Dahmer is a fairly well known serial killer. He liked to torture and eat his victims. Apparently he claimed that he wasn't trying to kill them when he drilled holes in their heads while they were still alive, he was only trying to lobotomize them so he would have a perfect sex slave. To him, this behavior made sense. It was all about what he felt, thought, and wanted regardless of the pain that he caused other people. He was the only person that really mattered in his own mind.

To a normal, rational human being this behavior is patently insane. It goes so far beyond normal human understanding, that it is nearly impossible for a sane person to wrap their head around it. The best we can do to understand "why" is that Dahmer was insane--a sociopath. His murderous behavior is reprehensible to a normal human being. He was a "monster."

I know I do not feel the slightest bit of empathy for Jeffrey Dahmer, and I shouldn't. He was obviously mentally ill and unable to control his actions. He caused immense pain and suffering to other human beings. He destroyed lives, apparently without remorse, and was only stopped because he was caught. I would be hard pressed to find anyone who would argue that I should show empathy to Mr. Dahmer.

However, my BPDex has caused tremendous pain and suffering in several peoples lives. She drove her husband to commit suicide. She is vicious and relentless in destroying people who "cross" her, or that could expose her. She is especially brutal towards me, after we spent 15+ years together. She continues to take abusive actions towards me, attempting to cause as much pain and suffering in my life as possible. We have been broken up over a year now. Why does she keep doing this? Because she is insane--BPD, but still insane. The only things that are truly important to her are what she feels, thinks, and wants regardless of the cost to other people.

(I am not saying that all people with BPD are as vicious and dangerous as my ex, she may be quite special and comorbid with another disorder for all I know.)

However, I have read many times on these boards how we should be empathetic and so understanding to people with BPD. I am not suggesting that this is "wrong," but I had 15+ years of being empathetic, kind, understanding, helpful, compassionate, etc toward my BPDexGF and it did not help. It made things worse for everyone involved. My human decency toward her enabled her to get away with more selfish, destructive behavior. I am done. My empathy for her has run dry. She gets no more of it whatsoever. She deserves it no more than Jeffrey Dahmer does. She may not kill people as quickly or viciously as Dahmer did, but I guarantee that she has caused nearly as much suffering.

Feeling sorry for a person with BPD to me is equivalent to feeling sorry for a serial killer. It doesn't make sense, and I will not waste time nor energy trying to empathize with a woman who has caused so much pain and destruction for other people. If she eventually gets therapy and gets better, then she can spend the rest of her life making reparations for the damage she has done. If not, there is nothing I can do about it--I can only do what I am already doing, moving on and trying to minimize the damage she can do to me and the people I care about.

[GreenMango]

This a friendly reminder bpdfamily is a family website.  We have members from diverse backgrounds and experiences, this includes ex partners, current partners, parents with children with BPD, adult children with a parent with BPD, and sometimes members with BPD seeking support in a relationship with a person with BPD.  We maintain the boards to be a supportive environment for all members.

Please mindful when posting and consider the following guideline:

3.4 Excessive Anger, Excessive Blaming: It is recognized that most members have suffered emotional loses and abuse in their relationship with a “borderline”. Recognizing that the “borderline” is mentally ill, and understanding the role of this mental illness in the relationship is an important part of healing and recovery. Coming to terms with the abuse and/or understanding our roles is also part of healing and recovery.

Anger toward the abuser is part of the healing process. Frustration, irritation, annoyance, dismay, unhappiness are healthy expressions of anger. Hostility, vindictiveness, spitefulness, bitterness , and vengefulness is unhealthy.

Indiscriminate anger and/or blaming directed at someone other than the abuser is not healthy. Defaming “borderlines” as a group, is unhealthy and may be hurtful to other members, some of which suffer with borderline traits and some of which have children, grandchildren, or family members with borderline traits. Members shall not exhibit unhealthy anger or blame, or defame "borderlines" in general.

If at any time you feel triggered by a post please take a step back.  If you have any questions about moderation actions please contact staff off-board here:https://bpdfamily.com/resolve

Regards,

GM

[jdcthunder14]

Something in the news today made me think of this very issue and that is competency. The Colorado shooter James Holmes is talked about in this light. It is coming out now that his shooting spree was planned and therefore he can’t be “crazy.” I would say that comes from our cultural bias that to be truly crazy you cannot be functional or in other words “you can tell.”

Before I go on, in no way shape or form am I comparing my ex to a mass murderer so please let’s not go down that road.

 

So one question that comes up would be what do we pay more attention to, the acts themselves or what led the person to do the acts in the first place?

Maybe it is just me, but anyone that can take an automatic weapon and unload it into a crowd of people IS crazy. The court has to decide if he knew what he was doing and is therefore competent.

Taking this example to BPD; wouldn’t we all love it if we could gather up friends and family and put the BPD ex on trail for his/her misdeeds? Not much doubt that the person involved would be found “guilty.” It would be quickly found that they are competent and knew what they were doing.

Now we have to go a bit deeper. What is it that put them on this path of destruction in the first place? In BPD we have all learned that it is an overwhelming fear of abandonment that starts them down the path to their own relief. Does every action during the time on this path need to be forgiven since it was mental illness that put them on this path to begin with? Are they competent? Are they aware of what they are doing? Is it planned? If we could bring them to court, they would lose every time… but is it that simple?

[Rose Tiger]

Is it my ex's fault that his emotional development was hampered by a cold neglectful mother?  Or is it more compassionate to understand that he was a little kid and his basic emotional needs were not met?  The best I can do is take myself out of the picture and protect myself.  His condition is from his upbringing, his parents from their upbringing.  My codependence is from my upbringing, my parents lack from their upbringing.  The world is a broken place.  I see it as a chance to break the cycle with my own daughters.  Ex had the chance to break the cycle for his kids, he knows he is broken and I told him he has a chance to end the generational inheritance.  His choice though.  Nothing I can do about it except protect myself.  If I went back and he raged and hurt me or killed me, aren't I a bit responsible for putting myself back in danger?

[jdcthunder14]

RoseTiger et al.

I want to make clear that I take responsibilty for my part in my past relationship. As my friends all tell me when I start to tell the story of this... .  "what were you doing with her." The answer is I needed something to make me feel better after a different kind of loss that I had suffered. She was younger and cute and I didn't have anything to lose. With her history I should have expected nothing less than what happened.

I wrote these posts to take a different look at these situations, to see it from a different angle and also to let folks off the hook a bit. We beat ourselves to death on here basically giving the person with BPD a big pass and I think we go a bit far with that.

[OTH]

If we could bring them to court, they would lose every time… but is it that simple?

It won't take more than a bit of reading on the family law, divorce board to discover this isn't true. Life often isn't fair. Life isn't a hollywood movie. Is it best to stay focused on the unfairness of it all? How best to handle disappointment? How best to handle loss? How best to recover from a wounded ego? Is it realistic to always want a satisfactory ending to our pain and suffering when we are treated poorly?

basically giving the person with BPD a big pass

I do not give my ex a pass. She is responsible for her actions or lack of action. She was wrong in the way she treated me. BPD played a role and helps me understand her actions but it doesn't excuse her actions. It is why I learned to have better boundaries, make sure I'm not an actor on the Karpman drama triangle, and have taken to heart what healthy relationships should look like. I can't control what she does in her life. I can't control that life is unfair sometimes. I can control how I respond to life's disappointments and who I choose to have relationships with.  

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a115.htm

[jdcthunder14]

OTH.

I was refering to our pretend court of family and friends, but I get your point.

You and I share that we gave no pass. After my breakup I went out of my way to make my ex understand how hurt I was and how wrong she was. But I see on the site a lot of times people taking all of the blame for what happened as if the lies, abuse, cheating etc. were done by some robotic thing instead of a person that knows right from wrong. I just think a lot of people on here have to give themselves a little break.

[johnnyonthespot]

In reponse to : Does this upset you? Why?

Yep. Because it absolves her of responsibility.

Much like many other posters noted, she could function when she wanted. She was in control of what she was doing.  Her acts were willful and premeditated. She knew the difference between right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate, truth and lies, reality and fantasy.

Did she 'suffer' from insecurity, internal chaos, and emotional overload? Of course; but so do many of us (that's why we held on to the relationship in the first place, and also why we're now on this board).

Can neuroimaging be used as a support to diagnose BPD? In my opinion, based on PUBMED review, the answer is maybe... .  but not yet.  There are many small studies with tremendous heterogeneity, poor sample sizes. At best, the verdict is out and at worst, there still exists no consistent data (recent reference below).  Which is amazing, when one considers that upwards of 2% of western population has a variant of the disorder. Is there any other illness that affects as many people that has as little organic explanation? Maybe alcoholism, and the debate over whether or not that's an illness is still very much alive within the medical community.

I can't stand that we are beating ourselves up. What did we do? We fell in love. Then, like people in love tend to do, we protected the relationship and fought for our loved ones despite all odds. We endured abuse, and rage, and betrayal, and yes, in many cases, evil.  Was it a mistake to fall in love with a twisted person? Of course, but love is love, utterly blind and generally senseless.

My father used to say, "There are two kinds of people in the world. Good people who do good things, and good people who do bad things. The latter group is known to the rest of us as bad people."

Bingo.

Finally, isn't this a detaching thread? Why can't we express ourselves honestly. It seems that the moment a thread gets provocative, it is either eliminated, or curtailed.

Are we worried that a pwBPD might read this, and have hurt feelings? Poor little thang. 


Brain Struct Funct. 2012 Oct;217(4):767-82. Epub 2012 Jan 18.

Brain structure and function in borderline personality disorder.

[OTH]

I also see something else. I see people taking all the blame on themselves in an effort to try and save the relationship when they know for a fact how bad things are! This is very unhealthy behavior but they are trying to avoid the painful breakup. To me it is always most important to get back to what we can control. Our life and our own future decisions. I understand people are in different stages of healing though. There is nothing wrong with being angry at our BPD ex. Fully justified in most cases. Some just aren't over the shock yet. Some people have been stuck looking at their ex's issues for far too long with little introspection. I think everybody can agree how difficult it is getting ourselves to a better frame of mind after coming out of one of these relationships. It is hard to do. I hate nothing more than seeing someone come back to these boards after being in a r/s with a different BPD! Fully recognizing our part is the only way to make sure that does't happen again.  The people on this board have my greatest sympathy whether they agree with me or not. I know exactly where they have been.   

OTH.

I was refering to our pretend court of family and friends, but I get your point.

You and I share that we gave no pass. After my breakup I went out of my way to make my ex understand how hurt I was and how wrong she was. But I see on the site a lot of times people taking all of the blame for what happened as if the lies, abuse, cheating etc. were done by some robotic thing instead of a person that knows right from wrong. I just think a lot of people on here have to give themselves a little break.

[OTH]

Why does it absolve her of her responsibility? It helps explain her decision making process but I don't understand why it absolves her of her responsibility. Do you think love should be blind? I used to. Not so much anymore. I find nothing wrong with what your father said. Why are some posts edited? Emotions on the detaching board can spin out of control quickly and become not a place of healing but a place of venting. Just a lot of anger and little healing and moving on. There has been times in the past of little moderation and the board clearly lost its effectiveness. A lot more posts of comparing our ex's to serial killers, etc. 

In reponse to : Does this upset you? Why?

Yep. Because it absolves her of responsibility.

Of course, but love is love, utterly blind and generally senseless.

My father used to say, "There are two kinds of people in the world. Good people who do good things, and good people who do bad things. The latter group is known to the rest of us as bad people."

Bingo.

Finally, isn't this a detaching thread? Why can't we express ourselves honestly. It seems that the moment a thread gets provocative, it is either eliminated, or curtailed.

Are we worried that a pwBPD might read this, and have hurt feelings? Poor little thang.  

[BentNotBroken]

I used an extreme example to illustrate my point. I previously found myself giving her the benefit of the doubt, and extending basic human kindness to her, as I do with everyone in my life. At every opportunity, she would use whatever information she could get to further attack me. I had to learn very quickly that she was very much like a dangerous predator and if I let my guard down in the least, she would use that to later attack me.

As I said earlier, my well of empathy has run dry for my BPD ex. All compassion from me is closed off to her. She has made herself my enemy by treating me like an enemy for over 2 years now.

The only reason why BPD's don't lose in court more is that they are very convincing liars, and most people get sucked in to the victim stories. I know I did. Once the truth about their behaviors is held up to close examination, they can no longer hide just how sick they really are.

[Wimowe]

Why does it absolve her of her responsibility? It helps explain her decision making process but I don't understand why it absolves her of her responsibility.

Agreed.  What kind of responsibility?  Are we debating whether BPDs have moral agency, therefore moral responsibility?

There are always consequences.  If you're a compulsive liar, eventually no one will believe you -- even if your compulsion is due to a brain malfunction.

Take the example of someone was abused as a child.  The results of that trauma are that they will have to contend with certain emotional disabilities and maladaptive behaviors.  The person is not responsible for their victimization.  But they are for the results -- more specifically for their own healing.  Which truly sucks.  But there it is.  It's like if somebody breaks my arm.  They can feel bad, apologize, cut up my food for me while my arm is in a cast, pay my medical bills, but I still have to heal my arm.

I need to talk about my uBPDxgf's behaviors for basic sanity checking and to process the wounds that she dealt.  Anger is part of that healing.  Beyond that, focusing on, much less obsessing about, my uBPDxgf's behaviors avails me nothing -- a big waste of mindcycles.  The only way out of this painful and bewildering relationship was self-investigation and self-confrontation.  I'll eventually have to forgive her if I want to fully heal and move on with my life.  That forgiveness is an act of compassion towards myself.

I feel compassion for my uBPDxgf and her suffering while recognizing that many of her behaviors are hurtful and destructive.  My responsibility is to protect myself and others from those behaviors and to avoid enabling them.  However, she owns the consequences.