Thank God if you don't have kids...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

NC is impossible if you have kids... .  which sucks royally. Especially if you have shared custody... .  which also sucks royally.

Ive been rid of this woman for around 2 years. In that time I've stuck to the suggested rule of no more than 4 sentences in text or email to convey a point. Anything above that is conversation and in my case that leads to her Border-land where she never returns.

But that doesn't stop her from:

Throwing away the mail I send to the kids.

Sending them to shower when I call.

Blocking my number from their cell phones.

Hovering over them if I call... .  etc.

Typical Borderline behavior.

And before I get sage advice about sending certified letters, subpoenas for phone records, attorneys, contempt of court orders, etc... .  I'm here to tell you that in my home court here it will fall on deaf ears. It has to be overwhelming and criminally insane in order for them to take anything serious. Especially because she's a woman and the mother... .  its almost impossible to wade through the jaded 98% female staff of our court here to be taken seriously anyways. Its impossible to verify texts and emails... .  especially with the apps that generate fake ones... .  it has to be federal business for the mail or our court WON'T pursue anything.

Grrr... .  

This rant brought to you courtesy of officer1618. Thanks for listening.

[officer1618]

NC is impossible if you have kids... .  which sucks royally. Especially if you have shared custody... .  which also sucks royally.

Ive been rid of this woman for around 2 years. In that time I've stuck to the suggested rule of no more than 4 sentences in text or email to convey a point. Anything above that is conversation and in my case that leads to her Border-land where she never returns.

But that doesn't stop her from:

Throwing away the mail I send to the kids.

Sending them to shower when I call.

Blocking my number from their cell phones.

Hovering over them if I call... .  etc.

Typical Borderline behavior.

And before I get sage advice about sending certified letters, subpoenas for phone records, attorneys, contempt of court orders, etc... .  I'm here to tell you that in my home court here it will fall on deaf ears. It has to be overwhelming and criminally insane in order for them to take anything serious. Especially because she's a woman and the mother... .  its almost impossible to wade through the jaded 98% female staff of our court here to be taken seriously anyways. Its impossible to verify texts and emails... .  especially with the apps that generate fake ones... .  it has to be federal business for the mail or our court WON'T pursue anything.

Grrr... .  

This rant brought to you courtesy of officer1618. Thanks for listening.

[Rose Tiger]

That sounds frustrating as all get out.  She doesn't care about the kids feelings at all.  It's that enmeshed thinking, she doesn't like you so therefore as extensions of her, like a foot or an arm, they can't like you either.  Really sick.  The father of my teen used to try to convince her to hate me.  She would tell me later how upset it made her when he spoke about me like that.  I mistakenly told her not to worry, that it doesn't hurt me.  What I should of done was listened and validated her feelings.  "It must hurt to hear those things"  and "any kid would feel the same".  Live and learn.  It is painful for the kids.  It will be a long term core wound that they will have to deal with eventually.  You can help with validation.  Maybe not send mail.  Limit calls.  They do get older and there is an age where they can choose which parent they want to live with full time.  During those years of dealing with teen's dad, I had a spiral notebook and would journal everything he did that irritated me.  It helped to get all those feelings down on paper.  Something is more powerful in writing versus typing, it helps.  Do you have the kids every other weekend?  That sort of thing?

[jmc8899]

I need to keep reading posts like this because I had been considering starting a family with my ex.   

He already has a son, and their relationship is strained.   His son does not like to be at his house, because he has this sick pattern of alternating between idealizing the kid and making him feel horrible for doing something wrong that was relatively minor.   He also refuses to compromise with the mother of his child - the rules are all set in stone and he is the dictator.   

[officer1618]

Yeah... .  it happened again today. I was reading a story over the phone. Mom made her get off the phone and "put her clothes away". 15 minutes later... .  WELCOME TO VERIZON WIRELESS, THE NUMBER YOU ARE CALLING HAS CALLING RESTRICTIONS WHICH PREVENT THIS CALL.

My daughter is 9. She is becoming more and more quiet the longer she steeps in mommy's madness. She sees mommy bed hop, rage, twist and turn... .  and she is withdrawling. The school counselor spoke with Mommy who expertly convinced her it was because Daddy puts things in her head and yells at her if she doesn't say them... .  you know... .  exactly what she needs to project to shelter her from the pain.

I have no word for the frustration I feel. Police, courts, counselors, judges, teachers... .  no one cared what my kids shared. Borderlines by nature are professional victims and experts at mucking up the truth with projections and gaslighting that it exhausts the investigators and they just want out of the toxic drama. I certainly noticed that EVERYONE was passing the Buck. Courts to police... .  police to courts... .  counselors to children services... .  back to courts... .  back to police. Its definitely Satan's playground.

[wowjer]

I have reiterated the same statement as this subject over and over and over. 

I understand that everybody on here is struggling with one aspect of their ex or another.  NC is a dream. 

We do have 2 wonderful kids and they are my heart and soul.  I remember when she first left before we became pregnant.  (yeah, embarrassed).  I was going through the same pain and did not understand anything.  I went away to AC and came home to the house we just leased and she never came home.  That was replacement #1. 

It is such a double edge sword.  Man, I was free and I cannot believe I dove in again.  However, I have beautiful kids from the recycles.  Yes one kid after that recycle and one after she left when my daughter was 1-2 years old.  That was replacement #2.  (yeah, embarrassed). 

Maybe it is a triple edge sword because I did not know about BPD and plus I obviously did not recognize my own issues.  I could have entirely left her and went with somebody worse.  Maybe a crackhead.  JK. 

Overall, having kids with her is a very tough pill to swallow.  I am embarrassed for my kids. 

I hear ya officer 1618.

[stoic83]

Hey guys,

im pretty sure my mom is BPD Im 29 and have a bs in math and ba in philsophy and started a software company...

My dad was abusive towards me for most of my childhood... .  because he didnt leave. I still have his back to this day, even though he has pulled me off of my course twice and betrayed me (once from being a professor in france, and once from my job i obtained after years of couch hopping when my mom decided to split me black and cut me out)... .  

My sister attempted suicide at 14 or 15 and received a nose job sometime later, my parents used to tell me they were worried about my sister because she was an ugly baby. Who says that?

My mom brainwashed me to hate my dad... .  i used to kick him and make fun of him. I still feel terrible. It wasnt me... .  i was just my mom's puppet. I told this to my dad sometimes, and he told me that he didnt mind the treatment.

He takes antidepressants and xanax... .  everyone in the family is a problem, except guess who? mom!

I think mom is high functioning BPD/Schizotypal... .  she did act very loving at times, but in the end she is furious with me for not "being like football players who always worship and help out their mom" what my mom doesnt understand that those guys mom's probably puffed up their kids egos and were true victims of abusive men, whereas my mom was a "professional victim". She says "nobody had a worse childhood than me" when i tell her about my exgf childhood... .  etc.

In any case... .  you are right. I have solid core wounds. I am the black sheep and the scape goat. But I am seeking therapy... .  

To the sane dads in the post. you did the right thing by leaving. I pity my dad and have no respect for him... .  but i feel like i can relate.

My #1 advice is to please be honest open and show humility to your kids. Kids are smart and they will figure everything out at some point. Have faith in your children and give them self-confidence and dont pity them. Show them respect and love and boundaries and they will eventually show you the same... .  sorry if they treat you poorly, it is because their mom brainwashed them to hate you... .  not much you can do about that other than just act right. Dont scream at them because its safer than screaming at her. I am ashamed of how i treated my dad as a kid... .  but after watching supernanny i can truly see who was at fault... .  both my parents.

Godspeed.

Stoic83

[stoic83]

Hey guys,

im pretty sure my mom is BPD Im 29 and have a bs in math and ba in philsophy and started a software company...

I mention this for two reasons.

#1) So you know i turned out ok.

#2) So you know that right now i care a lot more about what i have done, than who i am as a person.

Make sure your kids know that no matter what they do or how talented they are or aren't you love them for who they are not what they are... .  this is the most important thing you can do. When so much importance was placed on how i made my BPD mother (PTA president) look as her extension... .  my innocent curiosity and mischief as a young boy caused her to overreact and treat me like a criminal. All my girlfriends were "disgusting" my dad was "an idiot" she married him for security, she didnt even like him that much... .  my dads daughter from first marriage is ugly, my sisters nose was ugly, my mom was gonna let me get a tatoo of jimmy hendrix on my shoulder when i was 15 years old. Luckily I was adult enough to decide this was a bad idea... .  i dont even like guitar that much these days. My mom made my dad the bad guy... .  the fall guy. Im so glad you guys dont have to deal with what my dad had to put up with. that would mean a lot more to me as either of your sons than you and mom being together. Congrats on doing the right thing for yourselves and children... .  have faith in your kids.

[BentNotBroken]

If we didn't have a son together, I would have money, have plenty of time to work on my house, and I would be a lot happier because I would have been an entire year away from any contact w/my BPDex.

Instead, I am locked in a horrible custody battle that has cost me about 50K so far and we don't even have a trial date set yet. My son is subject to her abusive behavior and rages and probably will need serious therapy as he gets older. I am praying for a CE report that blasts her and seals the deal so I can get primary custody and raise my son with minimal contact with her sickness. She has caused so much much pain and destruction for so many people over the last two years that I will probably never take the chance of another serious relationship again. Sad but true.

[lurchlookalike]

NC is impossible if you have kids... .  which sucks royally. Especially if you have shared custody... .  which also sucks royally. Anything above that is conversation and in my case that leads to her Border-land where she never returns.This rant brought to you courtesy of officer1618. Thanks for listening.

I'm not only listening I really hear you too, you are not wrong, I have no advice. This is exactly why some of us stay in and fight it out with hand to hand combat rather than at a distance with mortars and machine guns via divorce.

Don't get me wrong though, I'd never 2nd guess someone else leaving or staying. I admire those that leave in a number of ways, it's just that with kids, just as you said, it will never be "no contact".  

I'm sure we're both glad we have kids, it's just that these crazy btches cannot let it be, whether we leave or stay. Like you said man, no contact is impossible if you have kids so you have to deal with it up close or at a distance. From a kid interaction staNPDoint I honestly don't know which is preferable. If you stay, at least in a way, you prevent her fully reigning as the Queen. It's harder to prevent that from a distance. Once again, no 2nd guess here, there are just too many variables.

For your sake though at least you are free to find other women, that has to be a good thing.

Good luck with it all.

lurchlookalike

[slimmiller]

I know almost exactly how many days it is untill my youngest is 18.  Yes its years since she is only 6 years and 7 month old... .  There will be a day when that pathetic creature and I will never need to communicate concerning the care of my kids. God how I long for it but as long as she is giddy in love with one of her bed boy-toys she virtually does not even know that the kids and I exist which is a blessing in its own.

As some of you point out though, keeping her close makes it easier. We are currently 'nesting' with shared custody. Yes its complicated but at least I have free and unlimited contact with the kids and it makes things easy for her to be gone whenever. And believe me she is. She barely see the kids more then maybe 6-8 hours per week. If I made any attempt at taking the kids more then the time we have now, it would be world war 3. This way she is gone 95% of the time. Guesss I am lucky

[almost789]

Thank you stoic, you sound very smart and also like a great person despite your upbringing.  bless you. Your story about the tatoo strikes me similar. I remember my son around the age of 15 wanting a tatoo, some of his friends were getting them. I said, when u are 18 if you still want one you may get one. I was not going to let him get some dumb tatoo that he hated later and then could blame me for letting him get it. He reached the age of 18 and never chose to get one. While his friends carry around these ridiculous tatoos their parents allowed them and they now hate.

[lurchlookalike]

Officer, and you other guys if this applies, along this same line I've come to the conclusion that I really can't work with my spouse on ANYTHING. It seems that whatever it is and no matter how well thought out it may be it inevitably turns into a tug of war, a power struggle, manipulation, and finally name calling (her calling me names). It seems like anything reasonable just does not work.

Somebody reading this could think I'm the culprit but I've had enough responsibility, adult interactions, and good comments from other people (even strangers) that I know this is just not the case. Any type of working toghether on even the most basic level, like moving furniture, eventually turns into a raging fit. What in the hell is up with that? I just take it for granted now, but when you step back a little bit it is extremely odd.

There are things I can do to avoid this, use the right words, sugar coat everything I say, etc. but that often makes me feel even worse. I really don't give a sh_t at this point, EXCEPT I try not to let the brown stuff fly around the kids. I can get kicked in the teeth and walk away if it saves them.

I just wish I was more aware of all this when I was a little younger, I really do.

[wowjer]

There are things I can do to avoid this, use the right words, sugar coat everything I say, etc. but that often makes me feel even worse. I really don't give a sh_t at this point, EXCEPT I try not to let the brown stuff fly around the kids. I can get kicked in the teeth and walk away if it saves them.

OH MY... .  that is what it has become.  Me sugar coating everything and i hate myself more after that.  I want to be straight forward and then end it.  Shut it down.  However, then it becomes the tug of war because i am the one using a power and control tactic. 

So the queen wants to be treated like a queen when she is being a witch.  go pound sand.  i am getting to the point that i am going to get her to shut me out by not taking it anymore. 

Weird thing is that I used to work in jails as a clinical therapist.  The only way to get crazy ass kids to back down and not challenge you is by acting crazier than them.  ... .    here it goes.  *just not around the kids* and *certainly NOT in print form*

[yeeter]

This is exactly why some of us stay in and fight it out with hand to hand combat rather than at a distance with mortars and machine guns via divorce.

I chose to stay, for this very reason.  My rational was that being in my childrens lives on a day to day basis is better for them, than a bitter, contentious, 'coparenting' relationship.

As a male - the courts and system (schools, etc) is stacked against us (Im not trying to offend the moms here, I am just saying that being male and attempting to remain in your childrens lives in a meaningful way presents some unique challenges).  I have found this organization to have some useful resources:

www.fathersandfamilies.org/

The only advice I have is to 'walk the walk'.  Put every ounce of your spare time and energy into 'being there' for your children.  Reach out to the teachers separately.  Engage, spend time with them.  Get updates.  Start coaching and volunteering on extra-curricular activities.  Its very difficult for your ex to prevent you from coaching your childs soccer team, or leading the cub scouts group for example (and if she then just pulls them from these activities the court will see this).  Document it all and work with the childrens services on what ways you can remain involved.

And the community will start seeing it also.  They will experience you first hand, which will mitigate some of what your wife feeds them.

It becomes your entire life - the fight to stay engaged.  (sorry, thats just reality).  But it WILL have an impact on your child over the course of 20 years until they are an adult and can make their own decisions.

MANY non-custodial parents just give up because of the hurdles and how much difficulty and work it is.  Then they get labeled as non-caring.  Deadbeats.  Etc.

Maddening to be sure.      

[slimmiller]

Yeeter,


Spot on. My life with the kids mom is a sheer surreal scene from a Dali painting. I find when I am at wits end, I engage the kids in doing something, skating, playing with the pets, homework talking, etc. I am probably co-dependent in a way but as you say in 20 years when the mom's life will be self evident, I hope my kids are young and decently balanced adults. Even now the kids comment on mommies' absence, her craziness and broken promises.

And like you say DOCUMENT everything. I mean who took kids where when etc. When (not if) the custody battle begins I have journals of prove what I did and have dozens of teachers, coaches, family that can vouch for it.

Also she dont know about that either. Why tell the enemy how much ammunition you have is my thought   

Hang in there and take care of you

[lurchlookalike]

You guys are all right, and alright.

Nobody is wrong here. Every situation and personality is different and the best way to handle it varies considerably. We just can't fit everything into one pigeon hole. There are many different degrees of BPD too, from complete looney tunes to a more controlled calculating vindictive version.

Good luck, sounds like a good group of really intelligent thoughtful guys, too bad we can't have a beer but we'll have to settle for the BPD cyber bar I suppose. I'll buy! We do need some women however, that's always the real reason I went to bars in the 1st place. Maybe that was my 1st mistake, it's where I met my wife.

[Rose Tiger]

You guys are all right, and alright.

Nobody is wrong here. Every situation and personality is different and the best way to handle it varies considerably. We just can't fit everything into one pigeon hole. There are many different degrees of BPD too, from complete looney tunes to a more controlled calculating vindictive version.

Good luck, sounds like a good group of really intelligent thoughtful guys, too bad we can't have a beer but we'll have to settle for the BPD cyber bar I suppose. I'll buy! We do need some women however, that's always the real reason I went to bars in the 1st place. Maybe that was my 1st mistake, it's where I met my wife.

You are so funny.  Love it. 

[yeeter]

You guys are all right, and alright.

Nobody is wrong here. Every situation and personality is different and the best way to handle it varies considerably. We just can't fit everything into one pigeon hole. There are many different degrees of BPD too, from complete looney tunes to a more controlled calculating vindictive version.

Good luck, sounds like a good group of really intelligent thoughtful guys, too bad we can't have a beer but we'll have to settle for the BPD cyber bar I suppose. I'll buy! We do need some women however, that's always the real reason I went to bars in the 1st place. Maybe that was my 1st mistake, it's where I met my wife.

Yes.



Life is a series of lessons.  If you dont learn the first time - dont worry - you will get that lesson again later... .  

[Forestaken]

We do need some women however, that's always the real reason I went to bars in the 1st place. Maybe that was my 1st mistake, it's where I met my wife.

To quote Henny Youngman "Take my wife, please take my wife"

[Free One]

Thanks for this post. A reminder at a time of frustration that I'm not alone and others understand what I am going through.

I am tired of the battles. I am tired of the fights. I am tired of my S8 hitting, kicking, saying mean and nasty things to me because his dad has set him in with the idea I am bad. The poor kid. He should be allowed to love both his parents. He doesn't have to choose one over the other. I wish his dad understood that.

[yeeter]

Thanks for this post. A reminder at a time of frustration that I'm not alone and others understand what I am going through.

I am tired of the battles. I am tired of the fights. I am tired of my S8 hitting, kicking, saying mean and nasty things to me because his dad has set him in with the idea I am bad. The poor kid. He should be allowed to love both his parents. He doesn't have to choose one over the other. I wish his dad understood that.

Hugs Free One.   

The children are the ones that suffer due to the conflict.

I read a number of books when considering divorce:  For those here that are living it, were there any that you can particularly recommend?  (':)ivorce Poison' in my opinion should be required reading for all, but unfortunately those that need it the most are the least likely to read it)

[HarmKrakow]

I need to keep reading posts like this because I had been considering starting a family with my ex.   

He already has a son, and their relationship is strained.   His son does not like to be at his house, because he has this sick pattern of alternating between idealizing the kid and making him feel horrible for doing something wrong that was relatively minor.   He also refuses to compromise with the mother of his child - the rules are all set in stone and he is the dictator.   

Exactly!

My current gf w BPD also want(ed) a family and kids and saw me as the father. However the more I read about persons with BPD as mother and stories like these i'm happy we didnt go that way!

[Free One]

Hugs Free One.   

The children are the ones that suffer due to the conflict.

I read a number of books when considering divorce:  For those here that are living it, were there any that you can particularly recommend?  (':)ivorce Poison' in my opinion should be required reading for all, but unfortunately those that need it the most are the least likely to read it)

I've read Divorce Poison, and in fact, am reviewing it now. I am finding it hard to use right now though, as contact with ex is very limited, but I know his influence on S8 is great. A lot goes on that I am not aware of until after the fact. It's hard to battle the poison when I don't know exactly how it's happening.

I have found a lot of good advice in the Love and Logic books. Brings the focus back on to me and how I am dealing with S8. Trying to be the stable, constant parent, but the backlash is hard when I implement boundaries and discipline and ex is a Disneyland Dad. And, I'm only human and sometimes have human reactions.

[lurchlookalike]

Well guys, we have what I imagine to be some beautiful passionate women that have joined us here. Rose, that is a very sexy screen name, but I won't veer off course too much because there are some serious comments here, and it's so easy for me to go off course.

I am tired of my S8 hitting, kicking, saying mean and nasty things to me because his dad has set him in with the idea I am bad. The poor kid. He should be allowed to love both his parents. He doesn't have to choose one over the other. I wish his dad understood that.

You are so right and you are not at all alone in that FO. I have noticed this over and over again that my spouse attempts to USE the kids as weapons against me. My Mom & Dad would have never ever done that. It's like it's a fight to see how many of the kids you can get to back you up. They shouldn't even be a part of this, even if they are grown. I can't tell you how many times I have been completely blindsided by something my wife told them that I thought was in complete confidence. Not only that, but the story gets completely twisted in her favor. And, she relays this to those who are the most sensitive. It really is using the kids as weapons. There must be such a lack of something (confidence, self esteem, power?) at the core that would generate the need for a parent to do this to their children and spouse. I just can't imagine it, but it more or less forces you to defend yourself. Kids are used as pawns in the BPD world, no doubt about it.

[BentNotBroken]

Its almost as if the kids are just a means to an end for a disordered spouse... .  oh what's the word... .  oh, yeah OBJECTS!

[Free One]

Yes, Bent, exactly!