She wants to change how we communicate AGAIN

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Her only agenda seems to be to get the maximum amount of money out of us and make sure he has the bare minimum of time with his child,  And now she is grooming victim number two.  Another really sweet guy and a new baby in her belly.

[hell0kitty]

Her only agenda seems to be to get the maximum amount of money out of us and make sure he has the bare minimum of time with his child,  And now she is grooming victim number two.  Another really sweet guy and a new baby in her belly.

[sanemom]

Her only agenda seems to be to get the maximum amount of money out of us and make sure he has the bare minimum of time with his child,  And now she is grooming victim number two.  Another really sweet guy and a new baby in her belly.

Makes you want to say, "Run, Forrest, RUN!"

[ForeverDad]

She then went to the court and said that my BF should not have his child on weekends because I told her that he would be working every weekend and only staying home during the week to watch the baby! Which is not really what I said, but it made the judge not grant weekend just yet.

I think that's 'hearsay' and someone could have objected or refuted it.  But of course judges make decisions without justifying every detail so... .  

[DreamGirl]

Whatever has happened before is less important than what to do now. Avoid trying to emphasize how bad the problem is. With a high conflict person, this just triggers more defensiveness. Plus, people never agree on what happened in the past anyway. Picture a solution and propose it. ~ William Eddy, LCSW, Esq., author of "It's All YOUR Fault!"

It helps to face these problems with knowledge/experience - and to be solution focused.

Her only agenda seems to be to get the maximum amount of money out of us and make sure he has the bare minimum of time with his child,  And now she is grooming victim number two.  Another really sweet guy and a new baby in her belly.

This is an emotionally charged comment.

Being emotionally charged tends to make us react with emotions - not logic and reason.

You've also made it personal. You've included yourself in a battle that is between your BF and the mother of his child. Even if there is truth to her wanting money out of "you" or not wanting "you" to be around her child... .  it's up to "you" to relieve her of allowing that inclusion.

I, personally, used to go into hiding whenever she arrived on scene. It allowed my husband to deal with her exclusively and leave it to the two people who were privy to the divorce/custody case.

She twisted my words as well - because she is a fear driven creature who felt like my husband and myself were ganging up on her. She was suffering from what a lot of Mamas do when a Stepmom enters the picture. You get scared and nervous and often times intruded upon. Most mamas experience this and have to work thru it. I, myself, had to.

The BPD exasperates those emotions and where you see the "bizarre" behavior and the BPD coping skills. Feelings become facts and emotions rule the world. Her truth becomes her truth, regardless of your intent.

So I just wonder what direction you'd like to go with statements like "she is evil", "wearing her human clothes", "grooming victims".

Is this conducive of your own value system to react to other people in this way?

I didn't think it was. I see you as a kind person who loves her family and wants what is best for them. Are you living your values when you get emotionally charged and react with anger and your own "demonization" of her?

~DreamGirl  

[Matt]

It helps to face these problems with knowledge/experience - and to be solution focused.

Really good point!

I think over time, if one party is often causing problems, and the other party (or "team" is putting forward solutions, in time all the professionals involved - attorneys, judge, etc. - will begin to look to you as the problem-solver, and that will help a lot.

It puts more burden on you to always come up with solutions, and that's not "fair".  But it's probably a good thing for everybody, if you guys can step up to that challenge.

[sanemom]

It helps to face these problems with knowledge/experience - and to be solution focused.

Really good point!

I think over time, if one party is often causing problems, and the other party (or "team" is putting forward solutions, in time all the professionals involved - attorneys, judge, etc. - will begin to look to you as the problem-solver, and that will help a lot.

It puts more burden on you to always come up with solutions, and that's not "fair".  But it's probably a good thing for everybody, if you guys can step up to that challenge.

I think it is maybe the only way... .  the system is not good at coming up with solutions; only making sure attorneys get $$$.     Obviously, the one with a personality disorder is going to have difficulty coming up with solutions because with solutions, the drama goes away.  You guys are probably the best ones for the job!

[tog]

I do agree that solutions are necessary, they just aren't the ones that we think they should be. I've started thinking of SO's stbx as an "obstacle" like david (I think) does about his ex.

For example, SS never has his cell phone that she pays for when he comes over and he never calls or texts SO anymore. Asking her to send it with him or allow to him to talk to SO just results in a flurry of denial and lies and accusations etc. His phone seems to magically appear whenever SHE needs him to have it, but otherwise, it's perpetually lost or uncharged.

So, we got a cheap Tracfone for our house that he can use while he's here... .  to take to his friends if he stays over or use if we leave him home alone. But we are calling it a house phone, not his phone (SO and I both have only cell phones) so that it's not his property to be taken back and forth (otherwise, it too will disappear). Hopefully he will see it as a chance to talk to his friends and us by phone without her monitoring it and gain some independence. But it takes away the need to get her cooperation.

I also think it's normal to be angry and frustrated with having to deal with a difficult person all the time, and we shouldn't feel ashamed or bad about those feelings either.

[DreamGirl]

I do agree that solutions are necessary, they just aren't the ones that we think they should be. I've started thinking of SO's stbx as an "obstacle" like david (I think) does about his ex.

I like this reference - an obstacle.

I also like the idea that most of the time the problem solving is going to more then likely fall in "our" arena. It's the burden we bear - setting the good example, finding solutions, understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way.

The other parent can't, isn't willing, or chooses not to. Bottom line is that they just don't.

I try to remember (emphasize on try to, because I fail sometimes too) Skip's ideas on boundaries in amongst values:

":)efending our boundaries is more than a response in times of conflict - it's a lifestyle. Learn how to get in touch with your values, define and communicate boundaries of those values, and defend against boundary busters."

I feel like steps can often get missed when dealing with the chaos that a pwBPD can bring about. We get our own emotionally charged defenses in the mix and it causes more chaos.

I agree that we're allowed to get frustrated and angry. I do it. I'm really frustrated with my stepdaughter's mom who isn't financially contributing to the needs of her daughters and is having medical bills in her name sent to my house. She's boundary busting.

I have to still live my life based on a set of values and I suppose that is what I try to encourage all of us - you, me, hell0kitty.

That we still get to rock our beautiful selves and not get so frustrated that we go outside our values in this.  Just be who we are, regardless of where a disordered person tries to drive/drag/push/pull us into.

[tog]

That's a good goal, to not let them affect our lives... .  but honestly, it is in my values to not enable people by being overly compassionate instead of holding them accountable for their choices.

I am in general a caring person, but I don't believe having a disorder is a good "excuse" for abusing and hurting people, and I tend to lose compassion for people who over and over again demonstrate they have little if any regard for me. To me, it's like saying the pickpocket is only stealing my wallet because he doesn't know any other way to meet his needs. That may be true, but that doesn't mean I hang around him, feel sorry for his crappy childhood, hand him my wallet or refuse to prosecute him.

At times I feel like you are asking us to have more compassion for the person doing the abuse than the people being abused. I can't do that. I feel she has made conscious choices to lie, abuse and manipulate to meet her needs, even knowing it's wrong. And she does know it's wrong because she stops it when people are watching.

So I may learn to see her as an obstacle and not let her take over my life, but it's well within my personal values to dislike her, to hold her accountable and to see her as someone capable of great harm to me and those I care about.

JMHO.

[Matt]

Disengagement allows us to understand that nobody chooses this disorder and those who have it are not happy campers, and also to protect ourselves and those we care about.

We don't have to choose between "She's responsible for her actions" and "She's a victim of her childhood".  We can believe both at the same time.

If we stay engaged with the person with BPD, it's really hard to avoid going too far in one direction or the other - either seeing the person with BPD as "bad", or sacrificing ourselves to keep the peace.

But by getting distance we can see it more clearly, and make the disorder a smaller part of our worldview.

[tog]

I agree that disengagement is the goal. Compassion, for me, will be hard won, if she ever gets it. I don't see her as "bad", but as willfully abusive and I don't feel sorry for people like that, quite honestly.

[DreamGirl]

But by getting distance we can see it more clearly, and make the disorder a smaller part of our worldview.

I agree with all of this. I also think that it goes beyond just simple "disengagement".  It's one tool in a whole handy dandy toolbox of ways to deal with someone prone to this kind of high conflict that hell0kitty experiences as a constant.

There isn't a cookie cutter way to deal with people with this disorder - because they are all like us.

Different.

My encouragement aligns with Matt, it just looks different, and it is to remain grounded. The balance of emotion and logic. Be focused. Be yourself. If that doesn't include compassion for someone you don't want to have compassion for, that's OK.  My own compassion is not about excusing or enabling, but about understanding the behavior, not personalizing it, expecting only what is to be expected - practicing Radical Acceptance - and it is just another tool in the toolbox.  

I also think hell0kitty is trying hard to do the best she can in this and why she comes here to figure this stuff out.  

[hell0kitty]

I agree with Tog, it is going to be a long hard road before I will, if ever, be able to forgive her for what she has done, and put my family through.  Honestly, as much as I love my BF, if I knew how she was when we started dating, I probably would have not pursued the relationship.  I've seen things in the last few years that I really did not believe I would ever see.  I've lived a pretty sheltered life in many ways, I guess. 

I also appreciate that Dreamgirl is willing to remind me when I'm getting too nasty, and referring to BPDex as not human.  It's true, that is how I feel about her sometimes, and it stings to get that reminder that I'm not being my best self, but you know, if I start going all dark, it makes me no better than her.

I'm just frustrated that she is in our life.  I'm frustrated that she is literally the one and only thing that I am stressed about in this otherwise very incredible time in my life.  I have a great family, a beautiful new baby,  the best job I've ever had, a new house, good friends... .  it goes on and on.  It is just a weird juxtaposition to have every awesome event be somehow marred by this woman.  It also sucks that I have thoughts like "I wish he never had a child with her" because then I feel like a bad person/guilty for wishing his child away, even though I love his child. 

I need to just not let her get to us.  It is a learning process that is improving with time.  Really, I feel we are past the worst of it.  I don't see her filing any more restraining orders, because we have worked to protect ourselves from that (With mucho help from this very board)

I just have to believe it will keep getting better until eventually we don't see or speak with her at all. 

That being said, I will still have days where I just want to shake the crap out of her in frustration, and will likely come here and vent about it.  For that, I apologize in advance. 

[DreamGirl]

I'm just frustrated that she is in our life.  I'm frustrated that she is literally the one and only thing that I am stressed about in this otherwise very incredible time in my life.  I have a great family, a beautiful new baby,  the best job I've ever had, a new house, good friends... .  it goes on and on.  It is just a weird juxtaposition to have every awesome event be somehow marred by this woman.  It also sucks that I have thoughts like "I wish he never had a child with her" because then I feel like a bad person/guilty for wishing his child away, even though I love his child.  

I need to just not let her get to us.  It is a learning process that is improving with time... .  

I think you're pretty incredible and are doing a great job.    

[tog]

I don't believe you have anything to apologize for, personally. I think anger and frustration are normal and acceptable human emotions, and it's fine to have days where you wonder if she is human. Should you dwell in that space forever? NO, that would be bad for you. But these are people who do take an otherwise ordinary life and turn it into a drama-filled nightmare. My SO has PTSD symptoms from her years of abuse and threats/efforts to take his son away from him, and in my mind, she has choices and she chooses to deal with her emotions in ways that are abusive to others.

So I don't think you should apologize because you haven't done anything wrong. This board is for support and help in dealing with this and I personally find it invalidating to be told that anger is not an acceptable feeling when you are watching loved ones be abused, your bank account is being drained and your whole life is turned upside down by a person who is choosing to be abusive to others so she can feel better.

[sanemom]

My encouragement aligns with Matt, it just looks different, and it is to remain grounded. The balance of emotion and logic. Be focused. Be yourself. If that doesn't include compassion for someone you don't want to have compassion for, that's OK.  My own compassion is not about excusing or enabling, but about understanding the behavior, not personalizing it, expecting only what is to be expected - practicing Radical Acceptance - and it is just another tool in the toolbox.  

I also think hell0kitty is trying hard to do the best she can in this and why she comes here to figure this stuff out.  

I think this is the point of compassion--not to enable or excuse, but to not take it personally.  I think about that when I hear about criminal actions in the news being blamed on a "bad childhood" or whatever.  We can use the "bad childhood" not as an excuse for the bad behavior, but as a way for the victim not to take it personally (if possible--a huge feat but some manage).  In a much milder example, if I didn't get much sleep and am grumpy, that may help my husband not take it as personally when I snap at him, but it does not excuse the behavior.

But, as I tell my husband, it seems more difficult to maintain compassion when re-injury is frequent.  One reason I have been able to be compassionate for my ex for the horrendous things he has done to me and our children is that he has STOPPED.  He doesn't keep doing things.  His ex, on the other hand, only stops momentarily before she starts over again.

He says she never fought in the marriage for anything (she is more of a waif), but now that he is away from her, she is constantly fighting with him for control.

[tog]

Exactly. For the people whose pwBPD has settled into some sort of disordered equilibrium, it is probably easier to relax a bit. For those of us still in the middle of the court battles, it's not so easy.

I don't take her behavior personally and I encourage my SO not to do so either. But I also don't feel compassion for her. I hate her at moments when she's making our lives very difficult, but my overall feeling about her is FEAR. Fear of the harm she can cause me and people I love with her actions, fear of my life being disrupted so profoundly, fear of losing SS to her manipulations, fear of the horrible stuff that is said and believed about my SO in court because of her. I fear her less and less as the court starts to gradually get the picture and give us some controls, but I still don't see her as some pathetic creature whose uncontrollable disorder causes her to act out in ways that hurt me... .  I see her as making choices to behave this way, repeatedly. Yes, she's mentally ill, but not of the variety that doesn't know what they are doing.

Someday I hope to think about her as little as humanly possible and not have ANY feelings for her, but that's awful hard to do when you are in the midst of the hurricane.  

[DreamGirl]

Fear is usually a sign of things we don't understand.

A good antedote to that is by learning about that which we don't understand.

Feeling sorry for her isn't what is going to do that. I agree that it is not conducive of what will lead to the goal of bettering the situation. It probably will lead to enabling. However, pity by definition... .  is not compassion.  

It's praticing Linehan's "wisemind" - taking our emotions (like fear,anger, even pity) and the logic of the situation (a pwBPD is limited in their skills) and meeting in the middle. It's a practice in remaining grounded and making wise decisions especially during court proceedings... .  which is especially challenging (imagine how a pwBPD handles it!).

Just like in this thread, hell0kitty, was able to calm down - look at the situation thru new eyes, where her emotions balanced with logic ruled her path. If you let your anger (emotions) rule, then like she said, you're no better then the the pwBPD you condemn. Same if you let yourself become unbalanced in the logic of the way you think things should be (i.e. a pwBPD shouldn't even be a mother).  

In a much milder example, if I didn't get much sleep and am grumpy, that may help my husband not take it as personally when I snap at him, but it does not excuse the behavior.

But, as I tell my husband, it seems more difficult to maintain compassion when re-injury is frequent.  One reason I have been able to be compassionate for my ex for the horrendous things he has done to me and our children is that he has STOPPED.  He doesn't keep doing things.  His ex, on the other hand, only stops momentarily before she starts over again.

I can see why you'd feel this way and I'm often so impressed with your self-reflections and trying to put yourself in other people's shoes. The best description I've seen when describing a pwBPD is that they are "emotionally sunburned". They feel what we feel - but at a heightened rate that it's almost unbearable. I really try to keep that in mind when I'm left scratching my head as to why she's done something she's done.

I also think that is what this board has taught me. The Mama of my stepdaughters has yet to knock off some of the stuff she does. I'm on to her patterns though and that helps. A lot. It doesn't make me forgive her for being a real brat every time she gets a new boyfriend... .  but it makes me understand that it's why she's being a brat. (Again, it's the Karpman's Drama Triangle)

Perhaps it is a choice that she's making; but regardless if she's doing it consciously - I know that it doesn't have to be that way. The fact that I know that (in my logical mind) doesn't do anything but make me feel right or superior in my thinking.  The effect of that is that it makes me less accepting of the situation at hand.

It's the best kept secret. She's never going to change and she's never going to knock it off. It is what it is. It also my choice in how I deal with her - all of our choices.

Disengaging and ostracizing the other parent is a short term solution to reduce the conflict. In the long term, however, this causes stress on the kids. (Anxiety, loyalty binds, guilt)

Accepting and learning to find equanamity in amongst the experience is the long term solution that will yield the best environment for the kids. It is really, really difficult when one parent suffers from BPD to find that balance. Impossible? Nah.

[Want2know]

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