Need advice - no matter what I said it just escalated...

[griz]

Today started off great.  DD and I left early this morning and she went to class and I went to work.  After work I dropped her off at her internship and I ran some errands.  I picked her up about 2 hours later and she was happy as could be except for the fact that she was starving. When we got home she started looking for something to eat and couldnt find anything that wasn't "fattening".  She has become obsessed with losing weight.  She has lost 45lbs that she put on originally due to meds but now she would like to lose some more however no matter how hard she is trying nothing is coming off. She started screaming at me that there is nothing to eat in this "god damn house".  I gave her a bunch of suggestions but no matter what I said it just escalated.  I tried validating such as, "it must be so hard to be trying so hard and not seeing any results, what do you think would be good to eat"  That was met with Shut up, you don't know how I feel.  You are so skinny you don't have to worry about what you eat.  She then decided to throw a napkin holder across the room and refused to pick it up.  I told her that she cannot talk to me this way and she said I will talk to you however I want.  With that my older daughter came down and tried to intervene, which only escalated things more until they both were screaming.  Finally my older daughter started to cry hysterically and DD went in her room and slammed the door.  I waited about a half hour and went up to her room where she is lying in bed with an attitude.  I asked her if she wanted dinner and she said no.  So I just said ok and came back downstairs.

Here is my questions:

1) Do I make her apologize to me for the way she spoke to me.  If so how do I go about it.  It often seems like when she gets over it she acts like nothing has happened. 

2) I understand that her anger and frustration spun out of control but how do I make her see this.  How do you make someone see that their reaction is not normal.

3) What do I say to  my older daughter.  She was trying to help and asking DD to talk to her and DD just repsonded by telling her to shut the F... .  k up, and I don't need your psychobabble bulls... .  t (older daughter is a crisis counselor)

4) my heart breaks for older daughter too.  She spends her days counseling crisis victims and then come home to this.

5) DD refuses any type of therapy.

For now I am just letting her sulk in her room.

Griz

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[almostvegan]

Dear GRIZ that was us last week. D flew off the handle at me in a similar way. Here's how I handled it: I had my husband deal with her for two days bc I was so hurt by the way she spoke to me I couldn't even look at her. After two days she came to me and apologized for the way she spoke. I told her something like" I accept that you feel sorry for how you spoke. And no matter what, no matter how you feel I never deserve to be spoken to that way. I'm always happy to help you find a solution to what's upsetting you and I will not be spoken to in that manner. Do we understand each other?" I got a nod and a hug.

I don't know if forcing an apology will mean anything. Rather forcing her to see how her actions hurt you might be a better plan. Can her dad or sister say something to her like " wow you should have seen moms face the other day" my d figured out I was hurt bc her father told her not to ever speak that way to me and she saw how I could barely look at her wo crying. Maybe something similar will work in your home?

I'm sorry to read that your older girl is affected by this. I can only say that she's blessed to have a mom like you and the professional training to understand this a bit better than the typical person.

Sending you lots of supportive vibes

AV

[griz]

Thanks AV.  I think that sounds like a good plan.  My h will be home shortly and I think I will calmly explain to him that I am feeling to hurt to deal with her right now.  He can take over for tonight.  I like the idea of making her see how her actions hurt me and her sister.

I just wish I could also help my older daughter. Sometimes having the training helps but sometimes it makes her feel worse because she feels so ineffective.  And would you believe in the middle of this poor older daughter gets a call from a college friend to tell her one of the kids that they were friends with last year and lived in the apartment next to them died in a fire last night.  Thank G-d her boyfriend just came over.

And thanks for the compliment.  I am not sure if she is blessed to have a mom like me she might prefer one that could figure this whole mess out.

Griz

[vivekananda]

gee Griz, I remember only to well. How hurtful it is for you... .  and confusing too I expect.

I am trying to recall my 'boundaries' advice.

1) have the boundary for this sort of behaviour set beforehand. So, now would be a good time to work on setting the boundary.

2) forget about an apology. If she doesn't give one, she doesn't. Just move on from that idea and work on the present.

3) Try the NVC formula for a specific boundary:

When you get angry like you did then

I feel hurt because I can't help you and I want to (my needs, values... .  )

When you next get angry either calm yourself or leave the room (the concrete actions you request)

The NVC Process

Expressing honestly; receiving empathetically involves:

•   the concrete actions we observe that effect our well being

•   how we feel in relation to what we observe

•   the needs, values and desires that create our feelings

•   the concrete actions we request in order to enrich our lives

4) you could also try the more general boundary.

" I want to ease the tension in the house. This is what I propose:

If you get angry to a level of 5 out of 10 or more,

you can leave the discussion and come back to it later.

If I think you are at a level of 5 out of 10 or more,

then I can ask you to leave and we can come back to it later.

Do you agree?"

You could set up a formulaic response for this: "daughter you are angry to 5 out of 10. You may leave the discussion until you are calm."

4) carolqcr has a 'rule' of behaviour for her house based on the value of respect. She used it - and acceptance and validation to do some excellent work with her very difficult daughter. She set up house rules (eg 5 out of 10) and then enforced them (usually, there were always times when things got hard). When used in combination with the other techniques, slowly a great change occurred. Perhaps you could revisit house rules with the whole family and ensure they are agreed to. If they are not, then you have to be prepared to let the dd go. If you go this way, then you need to be ready to critique your own mistakes that are 'disrespectful' or felt as such by your dd - and apologise for them. eg use this 4 point formula

"I am sorry I hurt you when I spoke abruptly

it was not my intention to be hurtful

I will try not to do it again

Can I do anything to make you feel better?"

When you do this, you are modelling appropriate behaviour. You might think that an apology would be an overreaction - but you are responding to how your dd feels and that is real to her. Apologies are easy once you learn  

5) You can't make your dd see her behaviour. She doesn't want to. All you can do is look at your behaviour.

6) Your older daughter is an adult, you are not responsible for how she feels either. Yes you are stuck in an ugly situation, but I don't think it is helpful to intervene between the two. I do think that you could consult with your non dd as to how you intend to deal with it and seek her feedback and commitment. But you are the mother and the head of the household, you really don't want your dd to 'intervene' unless it is necessary for your safety. You are the one to set the house rules and see they are enforced - by everyone.

7) That your dd refuses therapy is irrelevant to this situation. You can help and can be able to work towards change. You need to model the behaviour that works using values based boundary setting, validation. When you validate you use the language of emotions, you bring the person into the present moment, you help them begin to recognise how they feel and that is the first step towards building those neural pathways between the emotions and logic. You can show by your example, how they can begin to heal themselves. Afterall that's all that therapy is, allowing the person to heal themselves.

The hard part about this is learning to change yourself. But that's what you expect your dd to do isn't it?

hope this helps,

love to you,

Vivek     

ps she is very blessed indeed to have you   

[vivekananda]

phew, so long... .  sorry

 

[griz]

VIV:

Thank you so much.  I will need to read and reread this over and over so that I can really understand and implement.  Everything you said makes so much sense.  Right now I am going to work on calming myself down and then work on this tomorrow.  I need to get better at setting boundaries.

Griz

[Speedracer]

Such great advice here! Boundaries because apology cannot be forced. If you get an apology, "I accept your apology, but not your behavior." Don't underestimate how an empty stomach can make monsters out of any of us.

Hang in there Griz! Sounds like a typical scene in my kitchen, so sorry!

[mikmik]

I think that is a great montra

I accept your apology but not your behavior. 

ViveK, I too will have to read and reread your post.  Like so many of us on this board, I must take time to absorb the words and their meaning, and have to teach myself to learn to incorporate new behaviors in my life.  I wish this was like learning to ride a bike, once you know how, you just know how, and don't seem to forget.

And I agree with Speedracer, that hunger can be a big trigger.  Any sort of discomfort is so magnified by our pwBPD.

mik

[griz]

Just an update... .  I left DD alone in her room and spent some time with my older daughter because she also needs me.  About two hours later DD came downstairs and had obviously fallen asleep in her room.  She was looking for something to eat and I did not even offer to make anything. Not as a punishment but just because I was done for the night and she is certainly old enough to get her own food.  She was very quiet and heated up some whole wheat pasta that was in the refrigerator (this was the pasta that I was originally making when she exploded).  She sat down at the table to eat and at this point dh was home and we were talking in the kitchen.  I made no mention of what went on and went about my business.  She sat eating quietly and then said to me, would you mind not making that whole wheat pasta anymore, I really hate it.  I said, I bought it because it is suppose to be better for you but I agree  hate is also.  The evening ended quietyly and she went to bed. 

This morning she got up and went to school. No  mention of last night.

Griz

[Speedracer]

Griz I am glad you updated. I forgot how old you said she was. It seems as though later when she came down she could have offered an apology, not so much for you to hear, but for you to see that despite her internal misery she demonstrates she is able to reflect & own her actions a bit. Is this something the therapist can work on as a goal for her? I've noticed my dd doing this, showing me she is more self aware, showing that therapy is making some progress, however small.

Hope today is good!

[griz]

Speedracer:

DD is 17.  The problem is she refuses to go to therapy.  This behavior does not happen often actually rarely however there never seems to be any remorse for the things she has said to us.  It is always as if it never happened.  I would love if she could reflect on her actions and her feelings.

Do you think there is a way I could bring this up?  If so I could use a script or some suggestions.  I am so worn out today I can't even think.

Griz

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[mikmik]

Griz,

My dd is two years older than yours.  Here is what I experienced and from that, what I think.  When dd exploded in the past (it was before we knew about BPD), we would react.  The reaction was to her as a bratty, toxic person. We knew something was wrong, but not "what".  So, we did not know how to approach it.  I have often said on this board, if I knew it was BPD, with the tools available, and Valerie Porr's book, this board, etc, I would have gone about it differently.

I have found that when my dd explodes at me, IF I love her with cooler detachment (what is that called?), not manipulative, but more for me, she senses something.  She knows her feelings were real to her, but, she also knows they were not expressed correctly.  DD does feel remorse and guilt for being cruel or nasty, mostly to me, but has to sort it out in her own time.  Sometimes it takes several minutes, several hours, even a few days.  She will apologize for what she did, not how she felt.  She feels fear if she gets up in her dad's face.  For both things, after a bit of time, she will apologize, and-or seek some kind of reassurance (a hug).  I think this is tied into her fear of abandonment.

When she says awful things to us Griz, when she is not fully raging, but saying the big nasties, I tell her that is the difference between you dd and me (mom).  You wish awful things to happen to me, I only wish and hope and desire the best for you.  I have left her with that statement several times.


Also, I did notice that the apologies came, after I gave her my 'I am sorry' statements (as suggested by Valerie Porr).  Have you read that part of her book?

mik

[jellibeans]

I agree with mikmik... .  valerie's book has been very helpful.

When duaghter rages I do encourage her to take a time out... .  if she continues I try very hard not to repsond and get caught up in the discussion. It is very hard to leave that raging space in her head but if I remain calm and don't react with anger then I have a better chance later to talk with her. I will leave my house to disfuse as well.

I too have an older child that at times has tried to help me but I really feel it is better if she not be a part. She is only 18 and really doesn't understand BPD... .  my dd15 refused therapy for some time and even when she did go she didn't participate. Only in the last couple of months have I seen any effort. Until she decides she needs help she will continue to struggle with all her relationships. For my daughter I think she finally got to such a low point where she had no friends and had aliened our family that she finally realized she needed to change but I also realized I needed to change how I responded. Read the book... .  it will open your eyes and give you real skills to use... .  good luck

[Speedracer]

Griz, both our daughters go to therapy. They definitely do have to WANT to go or they will not continue. They also have to have the right MATCH of a therapist. My dd 16 clicked w her female DBT therapists and enjoys seeing hers now every other week. When she came home from RTC it was part of our family contract that she signed to be able to return home. My 15 yr old daughter was depressed & wanted a puppy. I said first I want you to "check in" w Miss Cindy (her long time therapist since age 5, she refused to continue with a few years ago). She went, got the puppy, & clicked so well again with Cindy that she is returning weekly for now. Cindy is good that if she is not a match she will find a therapist who is. Therapists all network with each other, and Cindy sees children from toddler age through college years. She knows where to send each kid if she herself is not effective. I've already identified through Cindy, an excellent male therapist for my son, he is on my back burner. I see Cindy separately for my sanity, and she communicates with the DBT therapist very well to keep dd on a good path.

Perhaps you can come up with conditions linked to rewards to encourage your dd to see a good match of a therapist for herself, and incentive to keep going. Like, continuing to live in your home, use your car, insurance, cell phone. Or a positive incentive - is there something she is wanting? A new hobby? a new will to live per se.

A good DBT therapist can "teach her how to live," give her a will to live, bring her beyond herself, one baby step at a time. Staying a distance from my dds therapist is helping tremendously because our dds have to learn to own their condition, and not use us as a target for when they are having a bad day.

[vivekananda]

hi, this is short... .  

validation gives your dd the language to identify her emotions. It brings her into the present. This helps build the neural pathways to help her begin to self regulate. If she can identify the emotion in the present, if she feels she is beig really heard, then she is in a position to begin to recognise what she is doing.

When she set about eating that pasta, as you described it, it seemed to me she was, in a way, acknowledging her earlier behaviour. That I think is a success. That she was able to ask about not buying the wholemeal pasta, as she did, seems to me another success. And your response was perfect. Another success.

All in all, it seems to me there is room for hope - even without her seeing a therapist at the moment. If you can model 'mindfulness' you are showing her how to behave. It seems to me that could be happening.

There is so much good advice here from others, but I couldn't help stick my nose in 


Vivek    

[almostvegan]

GRIZ I'm glad you updated. I hope things are ok for now.

These things don't happen too frequently at our house either but when they do , oh boy!

Would your d go to therapy with you? Maybe if you told her you felt you needed it to help you become a more understanding parent she would agree to go along? Then eventually you could stop going and she could go alone? Just a thought.

Hope to hear good news from you.

Peace

AV

[griz]

AV

That is a great idea. In light of the other night maybe I could bring it up that way. I am thinking that I could talk to her about me learning better ways to help her. 

I will keep you posted

Griz

[griz]

I also wanted to update you on the conversation I had with my T, which has left me very confused.  Yesterday at my appointment with my T I recounted the events of the past few days.  Her advice to me was quite different.  She feels that I am not setting boundaries correctly and that I should say the following to DD:

" I am upset about what happened the other night.  Clearly you had a hard time dealing with your emotions and you need to work on this.  You need to be in therapy.  I am your mom not your therapist and when your emotions get out of control like that and you cut, that is a very immature way to handle things.  You are 17 years old and you should be finding better ways to handle your issues".  and then she told me to reiterate "You need to be in therapy".

I mentioned to her that DD has been resistant to therapy for quite sometime and that he response would most likely be, "I am not going to therapy, therapy is BS".  She told me my response to this should be,  "Therapy is not BS and if you haven't found the right therapist than you need to keep trying until you find one you like.  After you have gone to 100 of them and you still can't find one,then come talk to me" . 

She feels that I am too close to my daughters and that I need to step back.  I also was a bit confused becase she told me that she has never been a friend to her children, she is very cut and dry and that is why her children have no issues trusting others. Her children who are now grown (in their 20's and 30's do not come to her with problems they have friends and each other to talk to.

Maybe she is right. Maybe my parenting skills do suck. I don't know, I always took comfort in the fact that my daughters could come to me with anything. I am so confused.  I keep reading that our children need our support.  Another example of this is DD goes to college literally 100 yards from where I work.  She comes in with me in the morning and then goes to class.  On her break two days a week, in betwwen classes she comes into my office and does some part time work for one of the gentlemen here.  At the end of the day we meet up and we go home together.  My T thinks this is ridiculous.  DD does not drive and does not have her license.  She has told us that she does not feel ready for this yet. I am okay with that however T thinks I should be making her get herself to school and back.  In order for her to do that she would need to take 3 buses.  Her clases s start at 8am so she would need to leave the house by 6:30am.  Her last class ends at 4. I work till 4:15 so she walks back over to my office and we drive home together.  If I made her take the bus home she would get home around 6pm.  seems senseless to me however maybe I am wrong.

I could sure use your feedback

Griz

[jellibeans]

It seems your T thinks you do too much for your dd and maybe the is right. I am so guilty of that and maybe that is why my dd wants me to fix everything. Maybe that is what T is noticing?

I think a good thing to try would be for you daughter to get your learning permit and then she can drive you to work and drive you home. You will be right there for this transition and maybe your daughter will feel some accomplishment from learning to drive. You could then gradually move up to her getting her own car etc... .  

I think you shouldn't ask your daughter if she wants to go to therapy... .  you need to tell her. When she turns 18 you will not have the power to do that so take advantage of it now. My daughter fought me for a long time about this but I just kept searching for a new therapist and on we would go. I had her try equine therapy this past summer and she hated it but she had to at least try. Take advantage of the time you have with her before she turns 18.

[lbjnltx]

I also wanted to update you on the conversation I had with my T, which has left me very confused.  Yesterday at my appointment with my T I recounted the events of the past few days.  Her advice to me was quite different.  She feels that I am not setting boundaries correctly and that I should say the following to DD:

" I am upset about what happened the other night.  Clearly you had a hard time dealing with your emotions and you need to work on this.  You need to be in therapy.  I am your mom not your therapist and when your emotions get out of control like that and you cut, that is a very immature way to handle things.  You are 17 years old and you should be finding better ways to handle your issues".  and then she told me to reiterate "You need to be in therapy".

I think the point that your t is making is that as her mom it is your job to parent her by addressing her maladaptive coping skills and holding her accountable for her own recovery.

I mentioned to her that DD has been resistant to therapy for quite sometime and that he response would most likely be, "I am not going to therapy, therapy is BS".  She told me my response to this should be,  "Therapy is not BS and if you haven't found the right therapist than you need to keep trying until you find one you like.  After you have gone to 100 of them and you still can't find one,then come talk to me" . 

Once more, the t is telling you as your d's parent to challenge this black/white all or nothing thinking and not giving her a free pass on taking responsibility for her own recovery.

She feels that I am too close to my daughters and that I need to step back.  I also was a bit confused becase she told me that she has never been a friend to her children, she is very cut and dry and that is why her children have no issues trusting others. Her children who are now grown (in their 20's and 30's do not come to her with problems they have friends and each other to talk to.

This can be difficult to understand and at the same time there is truth in this statement.  It is not our job as parents to be our children's "friends"  they need their own peer group to fill that role.  It is our job to help them grow up, learn to problem solve, mature, become independant and individuate.  Does this sound like the role of a friend?

Maybe she is right. Maybe my parenting skills do suck. I don't know, I always took comfort in the fact that my daughters could come to me with anything. I am so confused.  I keep reading that our children need our support.  Another example of this is DD goes to college literally 100 yards from where I work.  She comes in with me in the morning and then goes to class.  On her break two days a week, in betwwen classes she comes into my office and does some part time work for one of the gentlemen here.  At the end of the day we meet up and we go home together.  My T thinks this is ridiculous.  DD does not drive and does not have her license.  She has told us that she does not feel ready for this yet. I am okay with that however T thinks I should be making her get herself to school and back.  In order for her to do that she would need to take 3 buses.  Her clases s start at 8am so she would need to leave the house by 6:30am.  Her last class ends at 4. I work till 4:15 so she walks back over to my office and we drive home together.  If I made her take the bus home she would get home around 6pm.  seems senseless to me however maybe I am wrong.

It does make sense, it is easy solution... .  the path of least resistance.  It seems to me that your t is once more stating that you are caretaking too much here.  That you are not allowing your daughter to become independant and provide her own solutions for transportation.  For instance... .  if she were getting a ride in a carpool... .  what would your d's responsibilities be in that situation?  If she was riding with a friend who had the same class schedule what would be responsibility?  You are providing her transportation, her job, making her schedule easy... .  maybe too easy?

I could sure use your feedback

Griz

What do you think?

[qcarolr]

Wow Griz -

lbj and jellibeans 1962 responded while I was typing my reply. THought about deleting mine - they have some great thoughts. Yet, here is mine anyway - another perspective.

I can feel that confusion. Being a T does not mean they are always right for your situation. What is your T's experience with DBT and BPD? I have had to change T's before that just did not get that my child did not fit their conceptions of parenting. It is hard for me to have someone with 'perfect kids' compare that to how mine are acting. Maybe your T could have used different language to express what she was saying to fit you better. Can you let her know the things that were confusing - make some notes to take to your next session with her? Otherwise all you can do is guess and assume. Takes courage to ask her.

I also wanted to update you on the conversation I had with my T, which has left me very confused.  Yesterday at my appointment with my T I recounted the events of the past few days.  Her advice to me was quite different.  She feels that I am not setting boundaries correctly and that I should say the following to DD:

" I am upset about what happened the other night.  Clearly you had a hard time dealing with your emotions and you need to work on this.  You need to be in therapy.  I am your mom not your therapist and when your emotions get out of control like that and you cut, that is a very immature way to handle things.  You are 17 years old and you should be finding better ways to handle your issues".  and then she told me to reiterate "You need to be in therapy".

I mentioned to her that DD has been resistant to therapy for quite sometime and that he response would most likely be, "I am not going to therapy, therapy is BS".  She told me my response to this should be,  "Therapy is not BS and if you haven't found the right therapist than you need to keep trying until you find one you like.  After you have gone to 100 of them and you still can't find one,then come talk to me" . 

She feels that I am too close to my daughters and that I need to step back.  I also was a bit confused becase she told me that she has never been a friend to her children, she is very cut and dry and that is why her children have no issues trusting others. Her children who are now grown (in their 20's and 30's do not come to her with problems they have friends and each other to talk to.

I have learned, with many mistakes along the way, that my DD26 NEEDS ME IN HER LIFE to feel safe. And I have to continue to practice ways to BE IN HER LIFE that take care of my sanity and support her learning awareness of her emotions, accountability for her actions and words, and to value others that are able to be a validating empathic force in her life.

Seems to me that your T was not practicing using "I" statements very well. All her suggested statements start with "YOU". The 'formula' that is easiest for me to remember. learned at a DBT skills class:

I feel (very specific emotion), when you (concrete, specific actions/words), I need (specific, concrete need).

Now to actually live this - whew it is hard. I still react to DD ( and gd and dh) with my own intense emotions - I yell, I whine. Then I put myself in time-out (in my room with the door closed, in the backyard, a walk around the block) always with the parting words that I WILL BE BACK. Then I do come back and sit quietly, if others are still around. And then I can make the statement above. No one can hear anything, process anything in the heat of the moment. A part of validation is finding the 'teaching moment'. This almost always comes later.

So when your D was eating her pasta and you had agreed it didn't taste the best, this might have been a good teaching moment. Some risk of escalation - maybe worth this risk. Make your statement, than leave the room for a bit. Let your D search you out. Can you come up with some ideas of how you could have said what you felt, at which specific action from you D, and what you needed - and need the next time.

It has always been better to walk away when things first start to escalate. THis is so hard as it feels like I am "losing". For me, it is really win-win when I can walk away with the promise to return. My old pattern was to leave - like in the car - for a longer time and never go back to deal with the issue at hand. My DD holds me accountable for this now, and I am in a place to be able to hear this from her without getting so defensive. Sure wish I had been able to figure this out when DD was 17. And we spent a year in family therapy with social services when she was 17. Looking back I can see that we got a lot of good direction from the T about "changing the patterns in our family", and neither dh nor I were in a place to be able to take any of this in -- to make changes in how we responded in our home. We just continued to avoid - dh withdrew, I cried and whined a lot - DD did pretty much whatever she wanted.

There are other things that came to mind as I read througih this thread - they are gone for the moment. Keep coming back with updates. THis is such a valuable discussion for so many of us.

qcr  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

Hi Griz,

I like what jellibeans said, I like what lbj said, I like what qcr said. I am glad they were able to respond before I could. I will try to be very brief.

If I had been you in the T's room, I would have felt confused and felt hurt... .  I would have been defensive. Therefore, I wouldn't have heard correctly, I would have misheard.

I do think you would be best pondering what this all means to how you parent before deciding what it means to you. If your T has given you such direct advice, then they think it is especially important and it requires a paradigm shift in thinking for you if you accept their view is more appropriate than what you do now.

Re therapy for your dd, you have only till she is 18 to 'enforce' this. So, I would find a way to get it done. It doesn't have to be DBT, it doesn't have to be a RTC - there are lots of options, as long as the T understands BPD. So, maybe it is time to put your foot down a bit and gently assert your authority as a parent. My problem with doing this asserting of authority is that I always thought I had to sound 'assertive' so my tone and body language matched what I thought was assertive. Not so, I understand now. You can be gentle, kind and caring and assertive.

my heart goes out to you Griz, this is so hard. Be strong, we are here,

Vivek    

The 'formula' that is easiest for me to remember. learned at a DBT skills class:

I feel (very specific emotion), when you (concrete, specific actions/words), I need (specific, concrete need).

I think this is the way to do it. I would add that when we do the 'I need' (or want or desire) to relate it back to your unmet emotional needs.

eg: If feel deeply hurt and frustrated when you say you think T is b*ll___. I want you to try this therapist because I am scared that our relationship will never get better without some expert guidance.

That would be the NVC way to do it. (it is taking me forever to absorb that way of speaking. I tried it once only and it worked! Hubby now dries the dishes every time!

[mary290]

Griz, I personally think your T was pretty judgemental.  I think it is easy to say that you are doing too much for your dd but when you are living with the pwBPD you enjoy all the "good" moments you can with them.  If your car rides together, as well as the time when she is in your office with you are pleasant then why would you want to discontinue that?  And if it is not inconvenient for your to give your daughter a ride I would do that too.  It would be different if you had to go out of your way.  Just because she is 17 doesn't mean you still can't help her out with rides and whatnot.

As far as seeing a T, I do wish I had been more vocal in my dd22 seeing a T when she was 17, especially since you know she's got BPD.  But in the end you cannot force them to go.  If you do force her, she will be very resistant.  I really do like all the advice that has been posted here but Vivek  saying "I'm scared our relationship will not get better without professional help"  was very good.  At that age they feel they are invincible and when you add BPD on top of that... .  they think it is US who have the problems, not them.  And your parenting skills DO NOT SUCK!  I really admire the way you handle your d; I had a very similar incident as the one you described in the kitchen with your d.  My outcome did not turn out so well.  Let's just say (again) that I really wish I had known she had BPD back then.  Anyway, don't be hard on yourself.  Personally, the T stating that her daughters do not come to her with their problems is odd.  All kids should feel comfortable going to their parents for advice and help.  Obviously you want a balance but hers seemed way too extreme for me.  Just sayin... .  

Mary

[griz]

Thank you all so very much.  So much to think about and I actually have printed all of the comments out so I can sit and read and absorb all this weekend.  I think I also need to do some soul searching myself.  Here it is 3 days later and I have not even brought up the incident from Tuesday night.  Why?  First because things have been going so well since then and I don't want to rock the boat and secondly I know there is a part of me that wants to bury my head in the sand and believe that it won't happen again.  I know this is wrong and even though it is rare that DD has an explosion like this it is clearly indicative of the fact that she cannot regulate her emotions. 

In thinking about the things my therapist said to me and then reading your responses I think I also reacted alot to how she was saying things and maybe I need to find a way to bring this up to her.  I need to find the right words because what I want to say is, "could you please stop telling me how well adjusted your children are.  I am sure you are a much better mother than me but  I am doing my best and btw your children don't have BPD". 

VIV: thanks for putting the words together for me. I understand the concept but struggle with the words.

Mary:  Thanks you for validating how I felt.  I do feel very judged by what my T says.

Griz

[lbjnltx]

Dear griz,

Please don't be hard on yourself, we all do the best we can in the moment.  We have all been there... .  not knowing how to act, when to act, when to not act... .  it is all very confusing.

I remember once, my d's t telling me "so what if she doesn't go to school"... .  I thought "  "

She must go to school... .  right?  If she doesn't go she won't pass, if she doesn't pass she will be left behind... .  if she is left behind a grade she will turn 18 as a junior or worse... .  a sophomore... .  then I won't be able to "make" her go to school... .  she won't have a high school diploma... .  she won't be able to get a decent job... .  I will have to support her... .  she may not ever have a normal life... .  

I missed the important points he was trying to make:

1. Everyday in this country "normal" kids miss a day of school.

2. Even if I "make" her go, I can't "make" her do the work to pass.

3. I need to let the natural consequences come ... .  as painful as that might be.

4. I can't want it for her more than she wants it for herself.

5. I need to stop owning what isn't mine to own.

6. I need to stay out of power struggles with her.

7. I need to tie privileges to responsibilities and keep the problem where it belongs... w/her.

8. I need to use positive reinforcement and not negative consequences.

9. I need to support her not enable her.

10.I need to not personalize her behaviors.

All of these 1-10 are interrelated... .  wound around each other... .  and were always there for me to figure out... .  it was a messy process... .  definitely not a linear process.  I had to learn skills to be able to practice 1-10, sometimes I had to fail to learn how to do it differently... .  

Where I am now, where my d is now... .  I can stand back and see that the whole time that all this was going on there is one truth statement that I could have used as a reference point to know what to do, not do, how to do it... .  

Do myself, within myself and for myself that which I want my d to do.

This journey that we are all on is one of self discovery.  While it will be similar to others it will also be unique unto each of us.



lbj

[vivekananda]

Griz, you are on track. Thinking, reflecting and taking in our varied responses. And through your hurt and confusion, know there is hope.

I too would have felt hurt by the T's comments.

"could you please stop telling me how well adjusted your children are.  I am sure you are a much better mother than me but  I am doing my best and btw your children don't have BPD".  

I, personally think that would be fine for you to do that. Her comments are judgemental. It is not about her children but about you and your daughter. Your relationship with your daughter doesn't have to be the same as her relationship with her children. Nevertheless she has insight to offer. When we hear judgemental comments from others, it blocks the other valuable things they say and we hear them through the filter of their judgement. "When you tell me how well adjusted your children are, I feel judged as inadequate. I would feel supported by you in this if you reframed your comments in a more validating way, because I need to feel validated in this difficult situation."

But don't let this detract from your goal here. In this lbj's response bears serious consideration. It is through our own serious self reflection that we can begin to see things more clearly. From my experience this requires big paradigm shifts in thinking and subsequent changes in behaviour. I can't expect my daughter to change if I am not willing to. My purpose in therapy is not to feel good about who I am but to help me heal myself, to help me change. Personally I am slowly changing. I have had big changes in thinking, changes in behaving but I so have such a long way to go. You see it's easy to be 'good' in a non BPD world, but in the BPD world in which we live, it's bl**dy hard.

I am thinking of you Griz, metaphorically holding your hand if you'll let me. Thinking of your dd too and the mess in her mind at the moment. With Cheers,

Vivek     

ps for me the reason it is so hard to 'find the words' is because it requires me to indentify my own unmet emotional needs. It's so much easier to transfer the problem onto someone else' shoulders, eg a dd.  

[jellibeans]

Thank you all so very much.  So much to think about and I actually have printed all of the comments out so I can sit and read and absorb all this weekend.  I think I also need to do some soul searching myself.  Here it is 3 days later and I have not even brought up the incident from Tuesday night.  Why?  First because things have been going so well since then and I don't want to rock the boat and secondly I know there is a part of me that wants to bury my head in the sand and believe that it won't happen again.  I know this is wrong and even though it is rare that DD has an explosion like this it is clearly indicative of the fact that she cannot regulate her emotions. 

In thinking about the things my therapist said to me and then reading your responses I think I also reacted alot to how she was saying things and maybe I need to find a way to bring this up to her.  I need to find the right words because what I want to say is, "could you please stop telling me how well adjusted your children are.  I am sure you are a much better mother than me but  I am doing my best and btw your children don't have BPD". 

VIV: thanks for putting the words together for me. I understand the concept but struggle with the words.

Mary:  Thanks you for validating how I felt.  I do feel very judged by what my T says.

Griz

I LOVE THIS!

[Speedracer]

Aw Griz, this doesnt sound like a trained DBT therapist. Also, alot of statements that begin w "You" were suggested. Seems as though it can do more harm than good, esp if cutting is involved.

Sometimes even a trained DBT therapist not having raised teens yet, let alone one w BPD, can give questionable advice. I remember ours suggesting we let our dd run away from home & run herself into the "rabbit hole." NO, she is 16 & with the risks she's taking that advice is completely ABSURD! Not an option.

I'd run the advice by a girlfriend & she'd keep me thinking straight & we'd laugh over it before coming up w a better plan ourselves!

[Speedracer]

And Griz, multiple professionals told me this week that there is a mother/daughter dynamic that fuels the cycle of crisis they seem to thrive on sucking us into. They challenged me to step aside & let dd figure things out away from me. If she asks me a question, they advised I answer her w a question, like "What would your therapist advise? Why don't you ask your dr? I'm sure you will figure this out."

I would be offended if my t compared her successful parenting of her unchallenged daughters to raising one w BPD & suggesting that you imitating her skills will work. But the world in general "knows not what they do" when it comes to giving advice to us for BPD.

Take the well meaning part of t's suggestions & make them work for your situation. Trust your intuition, you know better than anyone else for your children.

Thinking of you!

[pessim-optimist]

Going out on a limb here. I'm fairly new to this... .  

But reading about what the therapist had to say, it makes me wonder if your therapist has experience with BPD?

Wouldn't that sound to the dd as judgmental and send her into a rage?

On the other way, I would agree with the therapist IF those concepts could be effectively communicated.

Any comments?

Wondering for myself, how assertive we can get with out BPs... .