Is saving the custody fight until later a possibility?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm looking at my life with her and the wreck that I've become.  I spoke to a lawyer on the phone for a bit and he said I would need to prove some serious problems in her kids to gain full custody.  I am a mess and I don't even know if I would be the best to take my son right now.  Better than her I'm sure, but I dont know if the courts will see it.  Is it even worth leaving to fix myself and trying for primary custody later, or would I just seal my fate?

[Winglessfallen]

I'm looking at my life with her and the wreck that I've become.  I spoke to a lawyer on the phone for a bit and he said I would need to prove some serious problems in her kids to gain full custody.  I am a mess and I don't even know if I would be the best to take my son right now.  Better than her I'm sure, but I dont know if the courts will see it.  Is it even worth leaving to fix myself and trying for primary custody later, or would I just seal my fate?

[peace]

Og not your faith then possibly your son's. If Nothing works then settle for 50-50 and start documenting. Never leave her with primary custody

[Matt]

How old are the kids?

How are their relationships with their mom?

How are their relationships with you?

[scraps66]

One perspective might be - since having a "fixed" you will be important, is, with that being the objective, can it be done with her around, meaning you staying.  Or is it more realistic and practical to think about the world without her in your business 24/7.  What I found, S5 and S8, 50/50 custody and a 4+ yr divorce, I missed a lot cuzz I didn't take care of "me" through the whole process.  I'm doing it now, but for the longest time I didn't act on what I was hearing on this board - take care of yourself, stay healthy, get out with friends, revisit your hobbies, spend quality time with YOU, etc.  When I say I missed things, I was the one trying to figure out my ex, and the one that became embroiled in the legalities of getting this divorce over with.  In the process, I was exhausted to the point of not being able to enjoy my kids while STBx went along on her merry way controlling me and the situation at a snail's pace to her liking.  If I did it again, I would have found an attorney that would have put me in control of the situation and pushed STBx through the process.  I spent way too much time trying to "figure out" my STBx and her problems and not enough concentrating on how to strategically get through the process. 

[scraps66]

More that I learned - waiting did me no good and just gave my ex time to plot, plan and spend money.  So my opinion, waiting doesn't help.  There is also a difference between waiting, and planning which may take time.  Things like collecting all relevant financial info, getting a nest egg of funds together and separating the finances, get rid of joint accts and credit cards.

[Matt]

Be very aware of precedent.

What I mean is, if you separate, and the kids stay mostly with the other parent, and that goes on for awhile, then the judge might say, "The way things are now seems to be working so let's not change it."  Even if it's not the best arrangement, you might be stuck with it til they're grown.

[tog]

On the other hand, a custody battle is enormously draining and whatever she's doing now will probably increase tenfold plus some new craziness added if you file for custody.

Find a therapist and sort it out with them.

[Winglessfallen]

We have one child together who will be 1 in February.  We aren't married, so the only legalities would be my son.  She is a SAHM and has spent every weekday with him since he was born, though I am with him every weeknight, weekend, and am the one who takes care of him through the night.  The way that I see it, she will have to start working, if she doesn't find another person to leech off of, and that will cause him to need daycare either way.  I take care of all finances and home things at this point, but they are in minor disarray (part of the mess) Nothing is in terrible trouble, but at the same time things are late and unorganized.  Physically and mentally I am completely drained and not myself.  I have been trying to take care of myself within the relationship, but its difficult.  I basically run out of time to even take a shower half the time before I'm exhausted and falling asleep standing up.  I'm not really trying to figure her out, although I do find myself recycling emotionally often.  I just know I'm having a lot of trouble controlling my words and stopping myself from speaking anymore, and I don't want to give her a case to put against me.  I have been recording for about 6 months or so, but i always miss the important things.  Everything is on spin cycle. 

Anyway, yes the precedence is my main thought, and the fact that he has two brothers who have a good relationship with him.  She does love him, and I see that, and when I'm not being an extremist, I don't mind the idea of her being with him, its just her small things and how she makes her older boys feel for little things, they are already developing issues, and I want to save my son from that.  But maybe thats not something I can do.  And maybe its not right to.  She is a person after all, not some monster, even though it feels like it sometimes.

I am going to talk to my therapist about it at our next session and see what he has to say.  I'm pretty sure I need to figure out how to get at least concrete things like our finances completely in order so it cannot be used against me.  I'm just so bad at documenting, especially when I don't feel like I have any time to actually go by myself and document what has transpired.

[Matt]

So right now you're still living together?  Sleeping in the same room?

Some suggestions:

* Minimize contact.  :)on't talk to her.

* E-mail only.  No phone or texts.

* Document everything you can.  Get copies of the documentation to a safe place.  :)on't leave it on your computer in the house.

* Make sure she doesn't have access to your computer, and log off every time from every site (like this one).

* Spend time with family and friends who care about you.

* Counseling is very helpful.

* Know the child's doctor, dentist, etc.  :)on't let anything related to the child be "hers".

* Find out how to prove the child is your biological son.

* Find out what the law in your state says about an unmarried father and custody.

* Consult several lawyers.  :)on't be in a hurry to pick one til you're sure.  Look for a lawyer who has experience in cases like this.

* Figure out a plan that you think would be best for the child - schedule for parenting and other matters.  Be prepared to explain how it would work and why it's best.

* Find out your state's guidelines for custody and alimony.  They may be published online, or a lawyer should have them.  See how they apply to your case.

* Separate your finances, so she doesn't have access to your credit cards, checking accounts, etc.

* Find out about Custody Evaluations where you live - how they work.

* Find out how Psych Evals work where you live - do they include objective testing or just interviews?  Objective testing which shows a psychological disorder could be a big factor.

* No sex!  It's pretty common in these situations that she will "forget" birth control and get pregnant, as a way to control you.  (It happened to me.)  Just stay away.

Lots to do but you can do it if you take it one step at a time.

How is your work right now?  Stable?

[Winglessfallen]

Matt:

Yes, we live together with our son and her two boys, except on the weekends, when their father has them.  We aren't sleeping in the same room.  I sleep in our son's nursery because of her insomnia and so that I can take care of him at night.

* Minimize contact.  Don't talk to her: I am talking to her, but minimally.  It is very surface conversations, for the most part, and arguments.

* E-mail only.  No phone or texts: We are without internet at the moment, so she cannot read emails.  We mostly only text, but I have a record of every text she's ever sent me.

* Document everything you can.  Get copies of the documentation to a safe place.  Don't leave it on your computer in the house: this is my biggest problem.  I have an online journal, a paper journal, and a few other spots to write things, but I can't seem to keep myself doing it consistently.  I need to work on this.

* Make sure she doesn't have access to your computer, and log off every time from every site (like this one): My laptop is password protected, as is my phone, and I make sure that I have cleared everything I am doing before I leave.

* Spend time with family and friends who care about you: I have been trying to do this more.  MY son and I go see his grandparents almost every weekend, and while there I try to meet with my friends (our current town leaves us a half hour away from our friends and family, so there aren't many people there to socialize with.)

* Counseling is very helpful: I've had two sessions so far and its been helpful.  Mostly in telling me that I'm allowed to be frustrated and angry and that I'm letting her walk on me.

* Know the child's doctor, dentist, etc.  Don't let anything related to the child be "hers": I have been taking care of everything, WIC and govt assistance, I take him to his doctor's appointments, and any other things he needs.

* Find out how to prove the child is your biological son: I need a blood test and a way to get it without her knowing.  I am still wondering about this one.

* Find out what the law in your state says about an unmarried father and custody: The custody in an unmarried relationship falls solely on the mother, and the father, even if listed on the birth certificate, has no rights without a blood test.

* Consult several lawyers.  Don't be in a hurry to pick one til you're sure.  Look for a lawyer who has experience in cases like this: I've called one, I am in the process of finding others that are knowledgable.  The one I spoke with, when I said she had a mental diagnosis on the books and told her it was BPD, knew what I was talking about to the point to know it was a different kind of case.

* Figure out a plan that you think would be best for the child - schedule for parenting and other matters.  Be prepared to explain how it would work and why it's best: This is something I need to do and haven't thought of, at least not finding a way to structure it as a proposal.

* Find out your state's guidelines for custody and alimony.  They may be published online, or a lawyer should have them.  See how they apply to your case: Need to do this.

* Separate your finances, so she doesn't have access to your credit cards, checking accounts, etc: The only thing she has access to is her Child Support Card and our EBT card.  Otherwise, all finances run through me.

* Find out about Custody Evaluations where you live - how they work: Noted

* Find out how Psych Evals work where you live - do they include objective testing or just interviews?  Objective testing which shows a psychological disorder could be a big factor: I will bring this up to my T

* No sex!  It's pretty common in these situations that she will "forget" birth control and get pregnant, as a way to control you.  (It happened to me.)  Just stay away: This is why we have our son. She duped me into sex without birth control because "Hey, lets have sex!"  "Ok!" and once in the heat told me how great it would be if ... .  then BABY! so I've learned.  I never thought it would be difficult to control it, but it is. It's not entirely difficult to abstain at the moment, but even last night was a close call.

Thanks for the suggestions, Matt.  It reminds and encourages me in things I've done, as well as points to things I haven't.  I appreciate it.  Anything else is welcome and appreciated.

[david]

I would very good at documenting everything you are doing for the child. Get a calendar and document every time you had the child under your care and every time she had the child.

The fact that you are in the child's room at night indicates mom is fine with you taking care of the child. Make sure you document because when the custody fight begins you can be sure the truth will mean little to her in order to win. My ex denied the fact that I did anything with our two boys and the only proof I had was my word. That doesn't mean much in court.

[Winglessfallen]

How should I go about documenting it?  Obviously something times stamped would be ideal, but either way, how could what I write be anymore reliable than what i say?  should I go as far as to take photographs and things like that? Should I track times and so forth.  Something like: "Woke up with son, took care of him until I left for work at 6:45 Worked from 7-5.  Came home on lunch at 12 and watched son.  Came home from work at 5:15, took care of son from then until 6:45 then next morning, gave him a bath at 7:00, put him to bed at 7:30.  He woke up at 11:30, fed him, woke up at 3 o'clock, fed him, woke up at 6:15 for the day."?

[Matt]

So... .  

* If you say "Good morning" and "Where are the garbage bags?", that might be manageable.  But how can you eliminate (not win!) the arguments?

* It's OK to "document" by writing things by hand in a bound notebook - might even be the best way, if you date each page.  Or maybe write e-mails to yourself.  Best is stuff you get from the other party, like texts she sends you.

* When you leave the house, can you put your laptop in the trunk of your car and lock it?  So you don't leave it where she might find it and get in somehow.

* Blood test - why is this a problem?  Can't you just go to the place and have your blood and your son's blood drawn?  Sounds like that blood test is super-important, and the sooner the better.

* Structuring your proposal - several thoughts here.

    - Your state may have a template for parenting time available online.

    - Or an attorney you talk with may have a template like that.

    - If those don't work, let us know, and someone here will give you a link to a good template you can use for parenting time.

    - Usually you start with "normal" weeks, and work out a 7-day or 14-day schedule.  As an example, it could be "Child is with Mother from 18:00 Sunday through 18:00 Thursday and with Father from 18:00 Thursday through 18:00 Sunday."  Small kids - usually exchange twice a week.  Older kids might be 7 days/7 days, or another 14-day plan.

    - Then after you have that "normal weekly schedule" part figured out, you look at special times, like holidays, and summer vacation once the child is in school, and work out what would be best.  An example might be, "Child will spend Christmas Eve from 18:00 12/24 through noon 12/25 with Father and noon 12/25 through noon 12/26 with Mother on even-numbered years, and the reverse odd-numbered years."

    - Then think what will be best at different ages.  Maybe one plan through age 3;  another plan from 4 to when he starts school;  and a third plan once he starts school.

    - It's critical to specify dates and times, and places for the exchange.  For example, mine said "Father will pick up children and drop off children at Mother's residence."  That's unusual - I offered to do all the driving so my ex would never be at my home.  Usually the driving is split, or exchanges are done at a convenient public place, like a library or McDonalds, to avoid trouble if the disordered party gets upset.

[DreamGirl]

Wingless - one question?

What is the custody schedule for her older children?

[ForeverDad]

Being passive or in the background doesn't work.  Yes, the court may relegate you to the background, but don't you do that to yourself.

Years from now you'll need to be able to look your child in the eyes and tell him, "Yes, I did care for you, I did stand up for you, I did fight for you, I did my reasonable best."  Your child won't expect you to have been Superman, but he will want, no, need, you to assure him you didn't willingly walk away.  Believe me, that is the message she will be relentlessly pounding into him over the years, whether directly or subtly.

My ex did that forcefully even before we separated... .  "Papi no te quiere pero mami te quiere." - Translation:  Daddy doesn't want/love you but mommy does.

My actions proved otherwise.  Yes, in the temp orders I was non-primary minority time parent and that lasted about 2.5 years but that was the court's arbitrary decision, not mine.  The point is, do what you reasonably can within your circumstances and ability, never give up and as for the rest, well, "Let Go and Let God".

We aren't sleeping in the same room.  I sleep in our son's nursery because of her insomnia and so that I can take care of him at night.

It is good that you spend substantial time with your son.  As for living in his room, don't make it an issue that you have to be apart from ex, make it more that you're his caretaker for significant periods, even overnight.  Focus on the things you do with him and for him, give minimal or no reference to her claimed insomnia.  (Mine complained about me too.)

[Winglessfallen]

Matt,

The only way I can see stopping arguments is to accept everything she says.  I'm sure there is a different means, but that's how it seems.  Plus, when I can get a couple minutes peace it can seem good and I get distracted from feelings.  I've thrown away pages and deleted audio files because of good times. 

I have started keep notebooks of what she does with dates.  I will be more vigilant about this.  As for you plan suggestions, they are good and I understand what you are talking about now. 

Yea, a blood test wouldn't be too difficult, I suppose I'm making excuses.  It would be hard to explain his punture wound, though.

Dreamgirl: he has them every weekend, we meet at a restaurant halfway between him and us.  No special arrangements for holidays, summer, etc.  If its on a weekend, he gets them, otherwise, nothing.

Foreverdad:

You're right, not being here is a terrible idea and would almost be giving up.  Its hard to accept that, especially when it gets bad, but its true.  I need to make myself as acceptable as possible to get what I need to help this work, I suppose. 

Another question: if I'm getting a recording of her losing it on her son, will it reflect poorly on me that I'm not interfering and just recording, a la National Geographic?

[Matt]

Matt,

The only way I can see stopping arguments is to accept everything she says.  I'm sure there is a different means, but that's how it seems.  Plus, when I can get a couple minutes peace it can seem good and I get distracted from feelings.  I've thrown away pages and deleted audio files because of good times. 

I have started keep notebooks of what she does with dates.  I will be more vigilant about this.  As for you plan suggestions, they are good and I understand what you are talking about now. 

Yea, a blood test wouldn't be too difficult, I suppose I'm making excuses.  It would be hard to explain his punture wound, though.

You need the blood test.  Maybe the puncture can be someplace she won't notice.  Or if she asks, you can just tell her the truth.  "I got a blood test to establish paternity."

As far as arguments, there is only one way to avoid them.  Turn and walk away - any time you see an argument coming on - just turn and literally walk out of the room.  It won't be subtle or graceful.  You won't "win" the argument, and you won't "let her have her way".  You just walk away - period.

You need at least one room of the house where you can go and lock the door if necessary to make sure she doesn't follow you.  You also need to be prepared to take the child and stay overnight somewhere else - a nearby hotel, or a friend's house, or wherever.  Have your wallet on you all the time - credit cards, ID, etc.  Be prepared to grab your computer on the way out the door.  Keys always on you.  Overnight bag for you and the child locked in your trunk.

The reason I'm emphasizing this is that as this process goes forward, you will be at high risk for a physical assault and for being falsely accused of domestic violence.  If she calls the police and tells them you hit her, you will spend that night in jail, and there will be a public record - accessible to anyone - showing that you were charged with domestic violence.

This happened to me, and to many others here.  Don't believe that if you did nothing wrong you can't be arrested - not true.  Don't believe that if there is no evidence against you, you can't be charged with a crime - not true.  Don't believe that if you call the police they won't arrest you - not true.

The reality is, if a woman calls the police and says a man hit her, he is almost always arrested and charged with a crime, and his life is changed dramatically and forever.  In my case, I had rock-solid evidence found by the police that night which proved she was lying.  In their report a few weeks later, they cited that evidence, and the charges against me were dropped.  But in the meantime, I had spent a night in jail, and I was out $5,000 for a criminal defense attorney.  And my arrest record is available online for anybody to see, for free, forever - it can never be purged, sealed, expunged, etc.  Which has made it harder for me to make a living.

The best strategy is to nip this in the bud, but never being around her at all.  Short of that, minimize interactions with her - don't talk to her - don't agree or disagree with anything she says - communicate through your lawyer or by e-mail - no phone or face-to-face communication at all.

And have a safe place to go - a room you can lock - or if necessary get out of the house and go somewhere she can't follow you.

Til this is all over, you are at high risk, and the risk will go up when she sees what you are planning.

[ForeverDad]

You don't need blood for a paternity test!  Today's technology lets you do it with just a cheek swab, that is, you get a paternity test kit, remove the long sterile q-tip type cotton swab, a quick swab or two inside the mouth along the cheek, and send in the sample along with your own swabbed sample, and then the samples are processed and the results sent back.  As I understand it.

I believe you could do it yourself if you want to know for your own personal confirmation for a yes or no.  Based on those results you'd know which direction your legal strategy should take.  If you need results presented to family court, then you would likely need to use the court's approved testing providers and follow the provider's procedures for the integrity of the sampling and testing.

[ForeverDad]

If I'm getting a recording of her losing it on her son, will it reflect poorly on me that I'm not interfering and just recording, a la National Geographic?

Tough question, with multiple potential repercussions.

First, a comment about my own recording.  I never told my then-spouse I was recording with a pocket recorder.  I gave her an idea once, leaving the camcorder out one day with one of her rants and rages in it.  When I came home, the tape was broken apart and the tape ripped to shreds, literally shredded.  I'm almost surprised she didn't destroy the camcorder too.  So it didn't go well, but by then I already knew the marriage was in the process of imploding, it wasn't like I had any (realistic) hopes that my years of increasing suffering would suddenly make a U-turn.

I viewed it as my documentation that I wasn't the one misbehaving.  And sure enough, when we got into court, she started making official allegations of virtually every sort of child abuse imaginable.  So having proof, with copies secured in a safe place she couldn't access, I was able to sleep less troubled than I would have otherwise.  I viewed them as my own special insurance policy.

Sadly, I suggest you record quietly without fuss or fanfare, well, at least until she at some point finds out.

Second, I found out that my CPS agency didn't care that my then-spouse was ranting and raging - if only at me.  The primary question was, Is she ranting and raging at you or at the child?  She was focused on me and so the CPS staffer merely suggested (unofficially) I get a divorce.

Third, it's possible you might be charged with abuse for not immediately reporting it, but that might be rarely done.  In all the years I've been here, that's become a serious issue maybe a couple times.  That's why I think that would be a low risk.  However, you could reduce your risk of legal exposure if you at some point in the recording step in and ask her to calm down, step away for a break, etc.  I don't know how seriously your local officials would view her raging, some depends on the official's reactions and some depends on what she's done.  Sometimes mothers are giving a 'hall pass' more than fathers would be.

[Matt]

You don't need blood for a paternity test!  Today's technology lets you do it with just a cheek swab, that is, you get a paternity test kit, remove the long sterile q-tip type cotton swab, a quick swab or two inside the mouth along the cheek, and send in the sample along with your own swabbed sample, and then the samples are processed and the results sent back.  As I understand it.

I believe you could do it yourself if you want to know for your own personal confirmation for a yes or no.  Based on those results you'd know which direction your legal strategy should take.  If you need results presented to family court, then you would likely need to use the court's approved testing providers and follow the provider's procedures for the integrity of the sampling and testing.

Good point.  I should have said, "You need to prove paternity, and quickly."  Whatever means will be accepted where you live.

[Winglessfallen]

Sorry for the late reply, its been a roller coaster weekend, and I thought we were good.  But I'm back... .  

Anyway, As far as the recordings, yes its very easy to get the recordings of her attacking me, but her and the boys is more difficult.  She tends to leave the room I'm in when she does it, and its hard to find a reason to follow her with my phone (recording device at the moment.)  I will be more diligent though. Its been easy to hide.  She has literally no idea its been going on, and I don't really see why she would.  She's even used my phone to check emails while the recorded has be running with an icon showing on the toolbar. I am looking into the home test, a swab seems like it would be much more practical than a blood test at this point. 

As for why I posted this, my current situation is an example of the reason.  I am so out of whack that I cannot keep anything straight, and have been behind on bills and overdrawn my account, and things of that nature.  As finances are a huge part of this situation, I would want to correct my financial problems mostly, not to mention the strain I've gone through mentally.

Do I need to upgrade to video recordings, somehow?  Or is sticking with audio ok?  The accessibility of "spy cams" these days, it wouldn't be incredibly hard to get one, as long as I could figure out how to use it inconspicuously. 

[Matt]

Where I live, the law is different for video recording compared with audio.

With audio recording, it's OK if at least one party knows they are being recorded.

With video, all parties have to be OK with it.

I think you can probably find out online what the law is in your state.