New twist International Divorce

[Jai Yen]

Another issue I'm dealing with is my S16 and D17. Their my stbx is scheduled to arrive on Monday. Everything is set up to get her served. I must make sure she comes back as serving her in her country would be a nightmare. Earlier this month I told her divorce was not negociable- we must divorce. Had to soften up a bit to get her to come back. I told stbx we can only discuss business for now and stay away from emotional discussions. I've maintained LC. I told her we can slow down the divorce process and work on our communication when she returns.

I explained the situation to my S16 and D17 the other day. Mama's coming back and has to stay in a hotel. She is not allow to be here with me. It gets to emotionally harmful if she's with me. My D17 understands. My S16 feels sorry for her and is concerned about his relationship with her. He is worried she'll be angry with him for avoiding Skype meetings with her. I told him it would be very dangerous for us if she doesn't come and gets legal help in her country. The kids'll be gone from Sunday until Wednesday on a school event so they will not be her when stbx arrives. I will let stbx know this too. Anyway, I'm just worried something will go wrong and she won't come. Can anyone offer some suggestions on how to help the my son understand the gravity of the situation? I told him he can see her when she returns.

[Matt]

Can anyone offer some suggestions on how to help the my son understand the gravity of the situation?

Why does he need to understand the "gravity" of the situation?

Is it OK if he thinks you will take care of it and make sure things will work out?

Does he really need to know how difficult this is for you?  Maybe that's your burden to bear - with support from other adults including your friends here - not share it with the kids... .  ?

[Jai Yen]

That's right. It's not so much he understand her condition in detail it's more he understand that if he slips and warns her between now and Monday what to expect when she comes back... .  That's the "gravity" I'm referring to.

I told him he really needs to trust me on this one. I'm doing what is best for all involved and not to be overly concerned with his mother's reaction to all this. Anyway, I'm feeling the pressure. She emailed all of us and wants to Skype the kids and me. This makes us all uncomfortable given this unique situation. I did tell S16 that this is the one and only time I'll ask him not to tell mama... .  I am concerned that she'll interrogate the kids about all of this when they meet... .  When did you know? Why didn't you tell me? The kids claim they'll simply tell her that that's between you and dad... .  She can be amazingly persuasive though. I guess at that point it will matter less.

My L wanted to make sure it did not look as if I were entrapping her - another complication. Her employer is paying her air ticket back as she plans to visit our local university for business of some sort. Also she wants to see the kids. I should be in the clear. Man, this stuff is complicated. I plan for this to be a once in a lifetime experience.

[BentNotBroken]

They are your kids, you can handle it how you wish. I would not have told them anything until ex was on the plane, not scheduled for any stops. Maybe not until she had actually been served. If you are having a hard time with keeping this under wraps, can you imagine how hard it must be for your kids. It puts them in the middle and they probably feel like they are betraying their mother. Since they are already in the loop, maybe an emergency session or three with a counselor would be a good idea.

And all of that "gravity" must feel like the weight of the world on a teenager. I would not want to be in their shoes. If they tell mom, they are betraying you and if they don't tell mom, they are betraying her. Ouch!

Take safety precautions for your kids when/if they spend any time with her. A wounded, angry BPD can be very extremely dangerous.

[Jai Yen]

I told them in a advance so they could prepare to stay with friends if needed. After she's served she could end up at our front door. I'll have to call the police. Not fun to witness if you're a kid. The kids have witnessed her ranting and raging many, many times. They've read up on BPD to a certain extent. They need to understand. She won't be my wife much longer but she'll always be their mother. They need to learn to set limits.

I did tell them that a family friend is going to help stbx and that I will provide the names and phone numbers of others in the community to help her out. They felt better about that. It's to my advantage to try to keep her stable.

I told them that this too shall pass soon enough. Tough times help us grow and become better people. I told them they can talk to a T when they are ready. I told them that we're healthy people confronted with a really tough situation.

I understand though given this situation that not telling them too much too soon is better.

Take safety precautions for your kids when/if they spend any time with her. A wounded, angry BPD can be very extremely dangerous.

I agree and I'm working on this issue too. This issue concerns me. I'll plan to have the kids meet her in public not in her hotel room and have a friend drop them off and pick them up.

[BentNotBroken]

It might be a good idea for "the kids" to set the public meeting place, a restaurant, arcade, or the like. Have them set the activity in advance, don't let BPDmom have control of the situation. If your friend (or a PI) can hang back and observe, ready to call 911 if needed, that might provide an additional measure of safety. Does the PO/RO just specify you or are the kids included?

The reason why I am overly cautious on this stuff is that I am gaining a better understanding of just how dangerous a pwBPD can be when they are triggered. It is not just the emotional outbursts, they are also capable of very cold, calculated acts of aggression. Be safe, and keep the kids safe.

[Jai Yen]

The order allows the kids to decide the meeting conditions. My daughter has witnessed how her aggression toward me. She knows it could happen to her too. I'll help manage any meetings they have with her. They should only meet in a public area where the kids can walk away if she becomes unreasonable or aggressive.

Thanks and I'll do everything I can to keep them safe... .  

[BentNotBroken]

And watch your own back too. She may be one step ahead of you, and have something planned that you are not prepared for. My BPD ex was always scanning for any sign of rejection/abandonment and she tended to misinterpret other peoples actions, but she sure paid lots of attention to tiny details. Her policy was usually to attack first, as soon as she felt like a rejection was in the works.

[ForeverDad]

It has been noted before, as much as we were never planning to leave, we were dragged metaphorically kicking and screaming to that outcome, a person with BPD (and some other PDs such as Narcissistic, Antisocial, Histrionic, Paranoid) would rather reject/abandon if they sense or feel they might be rejected/abandoned.

Do unto others before they do unto you.  The urge to control and dictate from their emotions is that strong.

[BentNotBroken]

It has been noted before, as much as we were never planning to leave, we were dragged metaphorically kicking and screaming to that outcome, a person with BPD (and some other PDs such as Narcissistic, Antisocial, Histrionic, Paranoid) would rather reject/abandon if they sense or feel they might be rejected/abandoned.

Do unto others before they do unto you.  The urge to control and dictate from their emotions is that strong.

Kicking, screaming, and dragging were involved, and then my ex decided to turn her rage toward me. 

I couldn't help myself. I pictured one of the many arguments my ex had with herself when I wasn't even there, and arrived home just as she was in an all out frenzy from "arguing with me" and unleashed it upon me as if I had been there the whole time. crazy.

Jai Yen--I am deathly serious, protect your kids and protect yourself. You don't know what she may have arranged for while she has been out of the country, and suspects you are abandoning her. I was ready to have a physical confrontation with BPDex's father based on the stories she told me of his then recent physical abuse of her. This was within a few weeks of meeting her. Fortunately, I have self-restraint and didn't confront him or attack him as she would have liked. Someone else may not have that type of self-restraint, and your stbex may be more convincing than mine was.

[Matt]

Kids - even teenagers - aren't prepared for stuff like this.

They really need to know that you are OK - sad but OK - and that you will make sure things turn out OK for them too.

[Jai Yen]

I am concerned about the kids. The order of protection makes it clear that the kids can decide the terms of a meeting with stbx. I will strongly encourage them to only meet with her in public only for the time being. I also think it is better if they meet her together. Finally, they know that they can set limits- though that's difficult she can be relentless.

She wants me to Skype her tonight while she's at work. After tonight I should be in the clear. She plans to spend the weekend with her mother. Also, the kids will be out-of-town from Sunday. I haven't Skyped her for over a week and even then just briefly. The kids have only been in contact by email. I'm trying to come up with ways to avoid verbal contact with her from here on out. I used icy roads and bad weather yesterday. I'm running out of excuses. I really need to make sure she doesn't get spooked and not come. I may "blame" my T. Let me know if you all have any ideas of how to keep it email only. My L told me to tell her that I'm just too emotionally overwhelmed right now to talk let's just use email. The kids fortunately are really busy with school and activities. They're OK with not Skyping her for now too.

Matt, I've told the kids that this storm will pass and things will improve. My daughter asked me how I'm doing with all of this and I told her it's really difficult and I feel sad but I'm doing what I need to do to stay as healthy as I can and to handle this as best as I can. I do reassure them that things will be OK.

[Matt]

Remember, no matter how OK they seem, they're looking to you for confidence.

I decided it was OK for me to cry, but not when the kids were around!

[livednlearned]

Jai Yen,

What do you think your wife might be like with your kids after she gets served? Can you help prepare them for the kinds of reactions she might have? It sounds likely that she could be suicidal. It might be worth talking to your kids about the kinds of reactions she might have, and help them develop a plan for some of the possible scenarios.

"If your mom threatens to harm herself, do xyz."

"If your mom yells and screams while you are in a public place, do xyz."

I would be hard pressed to know how to respond in a situation like this, which means kids usually wouldn't have a clue (and might even think they are to blame). I've had to do similar things with S11, and it's a fine line between unnecessarily freaking him out versus giving him some tools in case he needs them.

You're doing a great job in a really hard situation. Hang in there. The anticipation may end up being worse than the reality. Hope you can get some rest and peace of mind in these next few days.

[Matt]

How about, "If it doesn't go well, call me and I'll see if I can help."  (Not sure if saying "suicide" will help them.)

If you know what to do about suicidal comments you could do that - make the call to 911.

For what it's worth, here's how they handle it where I live.  I know because this happened with my son (who is now doing much better).

You call 911 and say what happened, like "My wife is very upset and said she might commit suicide."  I told them, "My son is drunk and playing with a knife - pretending to cut his wrists - and I'm afraid he might do it."

The police come and take the person, and hold them 24 hours for observation.  It's an unpleasant and humiliating experience - not something you want to do lightly, but it will keep them safe til they have calmed down and been examined by a doctor to make sure they are OK.

I'm not suggesting you tell that to your kids - it might upset them - but if you can make sure they will call you right away, and if you know the right procedure where you live, then you'll be prepared.

[Rose1]

As much as 16 year olds think they can handle things, they actually seem to be powerless when a parent behaves badly. I had to have strategies with my D at that age. One of them was to go into the ladies or bathroom and make a phone call from there so their BPDf wouldn't destroy or take the phone. Another was to walk out and call me or a taxi (I'd sort the money out when she got home) and forget about her things at her father's house if she felt uncomfortable. ie don't go back in and get your bag - we can get it later.

The reason is that they don't yet have the experience and strong boundaries to do what they know they should. Giving them specific instructions seems to help. My D never had to walk out of her father's house but he was insisting on having friends over that she felt very uncomfortable with and she refused to stay overnight while they were there. He told her to stop disrespecting his friends, I told her to go with her gut and call me if she needed out. They need to give themselves permission to walk out, or hang up the phone etc and that isn't easy. Having strategies in place with them minimises the risk somewhat (doesn't get rid of it totally because BPD's blindside us all). So telling them they should only meet in a public place, have cab money in their wallets etc is a good strategy. Also knowing to dial 911 if they think their mother needs help is a good strategy as is being empowered enough to talk to a security guard in a shopping mall and ask for help should she be acting out.

Difficult for kids to know what to do unless they have some scenarios in mind.

[Matt]

I told her to go with her gut and call me if she needed out.

This reminds me of the book "Protecting The Gift" by Gavin de Becker - an expert in personal safety.  He teaches his clients - mostly business and political big-shots - how to keep themselves and their families safe from terrorists, kidnappers, etc.

One of his big points is that we all have a kind of Spider-sense (not his words) that tells us pretty accurately when we're safe and when we're not.  If you're in a situation, and your gut tells you that you're not safe, you're probably not safe.

I took the main lessons from that book - I can't remember all the other ones - and taught them to my kids when they were younger.

Maybe you can find something he wrote online, or just take Rose's summary - "go with your gut" - it's very wise, especially for kids who might not have the confidence to do that unless you coach them.

[Jai Yen]

Once she's back and I get an idea of her state of mind I'll run through some scenarios with them. I studied the martial arts for years and we discussed the concepts of a "gut feeling" and "heightened awareness". I still never sit in a public place with my back to a lot of people or not knowing where the exits are. Simple ways to stay safe.

When it's your own mother it can be very disturbing. When she's activated she has a very, very hard time coming back to baseline. Add alcohol, prescription medicine and jet lag to the mix and it's nearly impossible for her to calm down. She literally passes out from utter exhaustion after hours of ranting and raging. Been there. Done that. Never again. But the kids will have to develop safety and coping strategies. I'll help them in every way I can.

Fortunately, since my wife moved back to Japan going on 5 years ago I've been able to reestablish a group of my own friends. Many of which she's never even met. My kids are older now so I have time for friends. Before that I was pretty isolated. I have a home office and somehow because she "went to work" she got the impression that I should be pretty much solely responsible for taking care of the kids and the housework. She always had excuses for being late coming home from work. She had a group of workmates she frequently went to parties with never inviting me. Sucked at the time but I did what I needed to do to protect and take care of the kids. I'm going to breath a huge sigh of relief once this is done... .  

[Jai Yen]

OK, my L confirmed that the Order of Protection and Interim Parenting Plan is in place. I'm relieved! I following my L's advice regarding protecting our bank accounts and credit cards. Our mutual friend who's an L will greet her at the airport and help her out as needed. I've reserved a hotel room for her for 5 days - she can pay after that. A letter from me will encourage her to get her own L and that money is available equal to the retainer I paid my L only for that purpose. She or her L simply needs to email me and let me know the amount. The kids will be out-of-town for a school function for 2 days after she arrives. Finally, another L friend of mine will hang with me the day she arrives and that night. Might have him hang out the next day too if he is able. He'll handle it should she come to my home.

I've done as much as I can to prepare for this. Now I wait. It's up to her to decide how she's going to react to all of this. I should know clearly by this time next week. Please send your positive vibes my way! Thank you all for helping me navigate this treacherous path.

[Matt]

Way better plan than I ever had.

[livednlearned]

I'll be thinking about you -- let us know how things go.



LnL