BPD and faking empathy... I don't get it

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

There is this thing in my exBF that really baffles me (and still makes me angry and sad). If I needed support, was deppressed, sad, upset, anything, after honey-moon phase there was no hope to get any support from him. Just resently I sent him e-mail (I know, mistake, but I'm just a weak human) and asked him to help me to deal with some stuff from our time together, just give his opinion. No answer, nothing.

If I ever confronted him about not being supportive to me, or not even noticing I have needs too, he always found something in me that made him to be like that: I was not supportive, I did not accept him, I had done something, I could not communicate with him... .  on and on. If I would be more loving, he would be more loving too. And you know, it makes sense in some sick way, that is how it works in normal relationships, yes?

But wait when he gets to internet or to be with his female friends (those are not very close friends but he has lots of them) or co-workers... .  Mr. Supportive appears. I have seen enough his messages in boards full of smileys and hugs for total strangers. He always let me know how much he supported and understood his female friends. Me? No way. I never deserved any of that. I remember this was a real issue for me, and it started bother me in the first two months. I just knew something does not match. I get all the crap, everyone else in this world gets smileys and hugs and best wishes. Yes, he did lend his ear to me sometimes, when I wanted to talk about my personal stuff... .  and I always ended feeling even worse, because in those moments I noticed he has no real empathy.

Can someone tell me what happens in their head when they are like that? Are they just two-faced? And why all people buy this "sugar-coating" from him?  Or do they? I just can't get my head around it. I'm not the most empathic person in this world, but I don't try to look like one either. And of course, all this really ate my self-confidence.

[KellyO]

There is this thing in my exBF that really baffles me (and still makes me angry and sad). If I needed support, was deppressed, sad, upset, anything, after honey-moon phase there was no hope to get any support from him. Just resently I sent him e-mail (I know, mistake, but I'm just a weak human) and asked him to help me to deal with some stuff from our time together, just give his opinion. No answer, nothing.

If I ever confronted him about not being supportive to me, or not even noticing I have needs too, he always found something in me that made him to be like that: I was not supportive, I did not accept him, I had done something, I could not communicate with him... .  on and on. If I would be more loving, he would be more loving too. And you know, it makes sense in some sick way, that is how it works in normal relationships, yes?

But wait when he gets to internet or to be with his female friends (those are not very close friends but he has lots of them) or co-workers... .  Mr. Supportive appears. I have seen enough his messages in boards full of smileys and hugs for total strangers. He always let me know how much he supported and understood his female friends. Me? No way. I never deserved any of that. I remember this was a real issue for me, and it started bother me in the first two months. I just knew something does not match. I get all the crap, everyone else in this world gets smileys and hugs and best wishes. Yes, he did lend his ear to me sometimes, when I wanted to talk about my personal stuff... .  and I always ended feeling even worse, because in those moments I noticed he has no real empathy.

Can someone tell me what happens in their head when they are like that? Are they just two-faced? And why all people buy this "sugar-coating" from him?  Or do they? I just can't get my head around it. I'm not the most empathic person in this world, but I don't try to look like one either. And of course, all this really ate my self-confidence.

[seeking balance]

Ta-hol 

I am unsure as to the exact motivation behind your exbf's ability to be supportive to strangers, but unssupportive to you - what I can say is this is a common complaint of partners of pwBPD.

The same fear of abandonment can manifest itself on the flipside as a fear of engulfment - thus the pushing away.  pwBPD do not have these fears with people who are not very close to them... .  so strangers do not see this.

It sounds like he mirrored you quite a bit for cues on how to act - this is common too.

Sending the email - we all have done this to one degree or another.  One of the hardest things about these relationships is finding closure when so many words simply to not match the actions.

Keep reading the lessons and articles here - they will help you out of the FOG.

Peace,

SB

[mitti]

Hi Ta-hol,

I am sorry you have had to go through this too and have the person closest to you heart wear down your self-confidence because he just didn't have it in him to do better. I understand how you feel. When I met my bf (we may or may not be broken up) I was confident, happy and trusting. I am re-building my confidence again but it has been hard. I recognize that inability to be there for me in my bf too. He goes out of his way to be supportive and helpful to others, to the point where he lets them take advantage and be down-right abusive to him and he will not stand up for himself. He will allow them to be rude to me and not defend me, even to his children and do nothing about it. He has refused to help me in the worst circumstances when I had nobody else to turn to but he will bend over backwards for people that he is not close or doesn't even really like.

Can someone tell me what happens in their head when they are like that? Are they just two-faced? And why all people buy this "sugar-coating" from him?  Or do they? I just can't get my head around it. I'm not the most empathic person in this world, but I don't try to look like one either. And of course, all this really ate my self-confidence.

People with BPD typically have extremely low self-esteem and a poor sense of self. They have deep rooted fears of abandonment so when getting close to another human being as in a romantic r/s this fear will become over-bearing and will bring on all sorts of intense inner turmoil and pain. My bf has told me that loving me so much scared him because he felt dependent on me. He no longer knew where he ended and I began. He felt he was losing his identity. At the same time he was terrified I might leave him. His only coping strategy was to push me away because I, or being close to me, triggered these intense feelings. He is scared of being manipulated and losing control. So paradoxical that he is letting that many people control him. But doing something for me, as in helping me when I ask him, makes him feel manipulated, and triggers feelings of shame. It sounds foreign to most people but this is very real for him and to avoid feeling this intense shame, he refuses to help me, and regains the feeling that he is in control. And it is only in intimate r/s as only there will they experience this fear of abandonment.

[schwing]

There is this thing in my exBF that really baffles me (and still makes me angry and sad). If I needed support, was deppressed, sad, upset, anything, after honey-moon phase there was no hope to get any support from him. Just resently I sent him e-mail (I know, mistake, but I'm just a weak human) and asked him to help me to deal with some stuff from our time together, just give his opinion. No answer, nothing.

I wonder if one reason why he had been so reluctant to provide emotional support to you outside of the honey-moon phase was because when you were in need of support, that caused him to devalue you.  After all, when you are supportive to him, then you were being the "idealize" you.  But if you needed him, then you are a "taker" not a "giver" and thus devalued.

If I ever confronted him about not being supportive to me, or not even noticing I have needs too, he always found something in me that made him to be like that: I was not supportive, I did not accept him, I had done something, I could not communicate with him... .  on and on.

It is preferable for him to devalue you because if you got him to see that he was in fact being unsupportive, then he might end up devaluing himself.  And perhaps not only that, but perhaps he had projected his unsupportive behavior onto you.  So instead of him seeing himself as unsupportive, not accepting or failing to communicate, he sees you as such.

If I would be more loving, he would be more loving too. And you know, it makes sense in some sick way, that is how it works in normal relationships, yes?

I don't know.  In "normal" relationships I think people are able to make more sacrifices for each other.  For people with BPD, they seem to be very low in ability to make long term consistent sacrifice for people they supposedly love.

But wait when he gets to internet or to be with his female friends (those are not very close friends but he has lots of them) or co-workers... .  Mr. Supportive appears. I have seen enough his messages in boards full of smileys and hugs for total strangers. He always let me know how much he supported and understood his female friends.

As SB pointed out, with complete strangers, his fear of abandonment/engulfment is not triggered.  His disordered feelings are not triggered by strangers or near strangers (such as those in honey moon stages).  But when you become more intimate, more familiar, like a family member, then he needs to be on guard for fear of the (imagined) abandonment.  It is difficult to be supported to a person you suspect might suddenly abandon you (even if the cause of this fear exists only in his head).

I remember this was a real issue for me, and it started bother me in the first two months. I just knew something does not match. I get all the crap, everyone else in this world gets smileys and hugs and best wishes. Yes, he did lend his ear to me sometimes, when I wanted to talk about my personal stuff... .  and I always ended feeling even worse, because in those moments I noticed he has no real empathy.

It is hard to be empathetic towards someone you distrust, fear, or have any other overwhelmingly negative feeling about.

Can someone tell me what happens in their head when they are like that? Are they just two-faced?

I don't think they are "two-faced" so much as they have rapidly alternating feelings (idealization/devaluation) about those to whom they feel close.

And why all people buy this "sugar-coating" from him?  Or do they?

What alternative would they subscribed to?  They've never witnessed the behaviors only you have observed.  Why would they suspect that he is acting differently?

Best wishes, Schwing

[BlushAndBashful]

When I met my bf (we may or may not be broken up) I was ... .  

Bwuah ha ha ha ha... .  

Mitti, are you POSITIVE you aren't dating my ex? 

And isn't it sad yet hilarious that we can say something like this without batting an eyelash, and we all "get" it?

(Sorry to threadjack)

[nylonsquid]

I wonder if one reason why he had been so reluctant to provide emotional support to you outside of the honey-moon phase was because when you were in need of support, that caused him to devalue you.  After all, when you are supportive to him, then you were being the "idealize" you.  But if you needed him, then you are a "taker" not a "giver" and thus devalued.

Interesting, Schwing. I read in a science article that BPD responded abnormally to giving. Here's an excerpt:

In this study, activity in an area of the brain called the anterior insula, known to respond when "norms" are violated, showed up on the scans. In the normal people, the anterior insula showed activity that responded in direct proportion to the amount of money sent and the money received. However, in people with borderline personality disorder, that part of the brain responded only to sending the money – not to the money received.

Here is a link to the full article:

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080807144305.htm

[nolisan]

I feel that BPD's may have an ability to "read" people - especially those they are close to but it is not the "empathy" that nons experience. They use this ability to manipulate other for their own gain.

I have read that many BPDs find careers in helping professions like counseling, mediation etc. God help their clients.

[BentNotBroken]

I wonder if one reason why he had been so reluctant to provide emotional support to you outside of the honey-moon phase was because when you were in need of support, that caused him to devalue you.  After all, when you are supportive to him, then you were being the "idealize" you.  But if you needed him, then you are a "taker" not a "giver" and thus devalued.

Interesting, Schwing. I read in a science article that BPD responded abnormally to giving. Here's an excerpt:

In this study, activity in an area of the brain called the anterior insula, known to respond when "norms" are violated, showed up on the scans. In the normal people, the anterior insula showed activity that responded in direct proportion to the amount of money sent and the money received. However, in people with borderline personality disorder, that part of the brain responded only to sending the money – not to the money received.

Here is a link to the full article:

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080807144305.htm

From the same article:

People with borderline personality disorder suffer from an inability to understand the actions of others. They frequently have unstable relationships, fly into rages inappropriately, or become depressed and cannot trust the actions and motives of other people.

In my relationship it looked like this:

BPDex was short on money for the bills. She was deeply ashamed of this, so she would just let utilities get shut off. I would take care of it and ask her how much money she needed to get out of the hole. Usually $3000-$4000. She would start a fight over it, put words in my mouth and say she could never ask me for money without a fight. It became my fault, and I was still out $3K. She never repaid any of it, and now is claiming that I never gave her any money and just leached off her. Any money I earned was our money, and money she earned was only her money. Apparently she couldn't understand the whole idea of sharing in a relationship, even when things are not equal on a monthly basis. It was like living with a selfish child.

Sad thing is, now that we are apart she thinks she is entitled to ALL of my money, all of our sons time, etc. I am apparently supposed to go kill myself because she is done using me up--except for the money part. She had her chance at that, I plan on living a long time.

[AllyCat7]

I wonder if one reason why he had been so reluctant to provide emotional support to you outside of the honey-moon phase was because when you were in need of support, that caused him to devalue you.  After all, when you are supportive to him, then you were being the "idealize" you.  But if you needed him, then you are a "taker" not a "giver" and thus devalued.

Interesting, Schwing. I read in a science article that BPD responded abnormally to giving. Here's an excerpt:

In this study, activity in an area of the brain called the anterior insula, known to respond when "norms" are violated, showed up on the scans. In the normal people, the anterior insula showed activity that responded in direct proportion to the amount of money sent and the money received. However, in people with borderline personality disorder, that part of the brain responded only to sending the money – not to the money received.

Here is a link to the full article:

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080807144305.htm

Can someone explain what that conclusion means? So borderlines are not comfortable giving or receiving? I read the article, too, and I'm still confused.

[BentNotBroken]

What the study couldn't determine was whether the brain activity (feelings) were good or bad/positive or negative. for example:

BPD #1-I invested money on impulse-I feel great

BPD #2-I invested money, on impulse-I hope I don't get screwed, yeah, I'll probably get screwed. People suck anyway, etc.

BPD #1-I received money from my investment, it was mine anyway-(no feeling)

BPD #2-I received money from my investment, why are they giving this too me? (no feeling/confusion)

Possibly the lack of activity in this area of the brain has to do with the deep sense of entitlement that some BPDs have? I don't know which causes which, though.

[schwing]

Can someone explain what that conclusion means? So borderlines are not comfortable giving or receiving? I read the article, too, and I'm still confused.

That's a great article nylonsquid.  I remember reading it a while back.

Here's my attempt to explain this article AllyCat7:

An MRI is a diagnostic imaging scan which can give people a glimpse of the interior of people's bodies without the use of x-rays.  It shows a lot of the differences between soft tissue and those pictures that show a lot of details of people's internal organs, muscles, nervous tissues, and such are usually MRI scans.

Well, fMRIs or "functional" MRIs can give similar detailed internal information (re: soft tissue) but are especially useful in observing and measuring the activity of nervous tissue (i.e. the brain).  So we can see when different parts of the brain are actively firing.  For example, if I poke you somewhere in the gut, it'll light up the part of your brain that registers that poke.  More interestingly, if I ask you to listen to music, an fMRI will light up the parts of your brain that are stimulated by the act of listening to that music.

Well, this study demonstrated that for people suffering from BPD, the part of the brain which registers whenever they give something functions normally, but the part of the brain which registers whenever they *receive* something does *not* register the information as in a non-disordered person.

So this could be interpreted as indicating that pwBPD don't perceive in a "normal" way whenever they get money... .  maybe this applies to love, and attention as well?  The big news is that this is a clear demonstration that the brains of pwBPD differ from non-disordered people in a measurable way, and this kind of information could be used *possibly* in the future as a way of diagnosing someone for BPD using an objective, albeit an expensive, test.

[KellyO]

Thank you all for your answers 

That article really rings the bell for me. Before I started to think he might have BPD too, I red about something similar, writer said people with certain disorders don't see giving and taking in a balanced way, they take and take, and when they give some they feel used and manipulated. It is a twisted thinking and can't be changed just by telling them they are twisted.

I find myself on the bargaining-stage after feeling myself quite good, and this is horrible. I would kill to get him back. Which is really, really sick, because he ripped my heart out, stomped on in and then blaimed me for it. Our honeymoon-phase was very short, and now I see why: I was already ripe pickings. I was depressed and lonely and in need of love. I'm very, very co-dependent and trying to get out of it now... .  bright side is, without this rs I wouldn't know how sick I am.

I was in idealization-devaluaton-spin, I can see that now. I never knew what I was, best woman in the world or carbage bin. I have confronted him many many times about his behaviour (I'm like that, and it made things so much worse... .  for me), and got blamed for it. It was every time something I had done, or didn't do, or needed to do differently. Now I can see he must hate me, he really hates me. He said those things because that is how he sees things. Best to accept it.

He is getting a new career... .  in working with children with problems. And he is very well liked. He told me he got much praise about being "emotionally intelligent", and I know it is true, he did not lie (he was not a big lier). For me, it was a stab to my heart and soul. I wanted to die. Now I had all the proof it really was me, not him. I was the problem. I still don't know how to get out of that.

[TakeFlight]

Welcome tahol, my fellow newbie! 

I'm still struggling with some of the same feelings. Particularly the self blame. in my case its not because I REALLY think certain things were my fault, but because I feel that had I known about BPD/codependancy during my relationship with my uBPDexGF I could have ended things verrryyy differently and ended up with a lot more self worth and self confidence still intact than I do now.

Try and remember that BPD's are extremely manipulative. he probably knows that saying these things to you about his new job will make you feel that you are the one with the problem! If you accept that you are simply feeding his denial and his need to hide from reality. They are masters at constructing facades to hide thier own shame, self loathing, and embarrassing actions (which is why talking to him will continue to keep you in the hole so talk to us instead!). Just remember that even though he seems perfect now, the state of normal for a BPD is always chaos and unhappiness and he is doomed to revert back there in enough time, even with you out of the picture.

take care

[BentNotBroken]

emotional intelligence... .  

I know a woman who is a sociopath. She is really good at reading other people and mimicking emotions. It keeps her from being found out. She has high "emotional intelligence". Not the same thing as actually having empathy.

I feel sorry for those kids.

[KellyO]

Try and remember that BPD's are extremely manipulative. he probably knows that saying these things to you about his new job will make you feel that you are the one with the problem!

I never want to believe this, but then I remember times when he saw he managed to threaten me, blackmail me or manipulate me to act how he wanted me to act (= drop a subject, shut up etc.), and I SAW THE SMUG SMILE! He was so full of himself, he did not understand I could still see his face. This is a paradox in me: I don't want to see him as a person who tried to hurt me, and I can see he does not hurt others, and then I have all this proof he was hurting me, constantly, and without any regret. Not once have I heard him say he should have treated me better. When I first time wanted to end our r/s, I told him it was because he did not care at all about my wellbeing. And I still don't want to believe he did not care about my wellbeing. It is like I need a nail and a hammer and every nail reads: he did not care about your wellbeing, he never will, and then I could hammer the nails in my head. I'm co-dependent, it is NORMAL for me people not caring about my wellbeing, I was raised to expect people not caring about me. Expecting more would be foolish. This all mixes in my head right now and I just can't make my way through it.

[mitchell16]

I cant give you an answer of why they do it. But it was very common for mine to this stuff too.

If a male friend of hers came over and helped with some small thing no matter how small, I would have to listen to how great he was, how wonderful he was of she would over exgerate how complicted of a thing he did for her. Now I could do the same thing and or more and I wouldnt even get a thank you or acknowlegdment that I had even done something. But oh she was quick to find fault with it.

She could spend hours on the phone with a male or female friend if they were sick or had a problem in their life. but it was never that way with me. I think alot of it is about keeping up an image to these people of how wonderful she is. She dont feel the need to do that for me becasue I really know how she is and in her mind she has me, so why bother. No need to pretend shes something shes really not. I remeber one day after months of putting up with her crap and walking on eggshells, I finally lost it with her. I told her she was mean, cruel, abusive and a bully. She kept repeating over and over to herself but out loud " im a good person" and everyone knows it. So i dont know why they do it but it is pretty common.