Re-engaged and Disengaged

[Vatz]

So last week I posted about a big fight. My BPDGF called me the very next day and when I told her "I thought we were broken up." She said we weren't and that there was no break, that she was mad and wanted to take the evening. I took the bait.

We talked and she said I had a point. She was angry and then pointed out that us living separately for a while wouldn't be so bad so long as we could see each other often.

Anyway, that day I told her that I still am unhappy in the relationship and my boundaries have shifted. I don't trust the guys she hangs out with. I told her, "Look, no more kissing, not even on the cheek, ever AT ALL. A hug maybe to say hello and goodbye and no more."

She asked if she could still cuddle up with people and I said "No, I'm following my gut here and saying no to that. It makes me uncomfortable knowing that you're doing that." She started explaining how physical contact was the only way she could show she cares for a friend. (I want to make a biting comment on that, but I'd rather not. You folks can fill in the blanks pretty well I think.) But eventually she agreed. I explained it this way "Look, if you cut the guy off it will sorta show you some true colors of the nature of your friendship. Either he's an actual friend that respects both you and your relationship. Or he's just a stalker type who's just biding his time. Or he'll leave." Like I said, she eventually agreed to the terms.

Anyway, apparently that went out the window tonight. I know where she was today. She was hanging out with one of her guy friends, the "sensitive, nice, caring" guy. I say that with a touch of sarcasm because I already pointed out about how a person who actually cares about her, isn't just going to flat out confess his love and tell her he could treat her better. A caring friend won't do things to hurt a relationship. Even if it's in a down slope. I guess he had the idea that I was some kind of jerk. Which is just fine for me, I have no sympathy for guys who claim to be nice and lament not getting dates because in reality they're sorta creepy. I know the type. Generally not a respectful person.

Truth is, for 6 months I have been emotionally unsatisfied. There's been a distance growing between both of us. I've been sad more often and the last month I would get upset when she'd call me. I knew that the conversation was going to be either asking for huge favors (to which I tried to be accommodating.) Then there was the thing about moving in together and I stood firm on my answer. I wasn't going to do it in under a year. I didn't want to, and even if I did, I couldn't. So she starting telling me about how "Well I only have a few weeks until they kick me out." Thing is, it's not entirely my problem and certainly not my fault. I told her many times to keep calm when dealing with family, to refrain from insulting them, to stop crying so damn much whenever they said something negative. I told her this because guilt-tripping, insulting, and "waifing" them wasn't gonna work, and that those things weren't helping her case. She didn't even have to be all lovey-dovey with her folks. Just stay out of the way, pay the rent and not bother her brother. I've told her this. But my words fell on deaf ears. Now she was turning HER consequences into my problem. For once I actually wouldn't let her talk me into doing something I didn't want to do (the moving in thing.)

So she called and we started talking and she said "Baby, I can cuddle with whoever I want." like it's some kind of grand announcement. Then she quickly moved the conversation to us moving in together. She said, if it wasn't gonna happen within a year, then our relationship was over. I said "It will take longer than a year even if I want to just move in with you just like that." So after a few minutes she said "I can't waste my time, I have to know if you will commit." and I said "By your definition, no I won't. This relationship can't work out. I can't do what you ask for, and you don't want to budge either." so then she said "Well do you still want to talk?" I asked "Are we broken up?" and she said "Yes, it's over between you and me." I said "Okay, goodnight. Please, since we are broken up, do not call me. I bring you your things by next week. But don't call me." She got mad about the no-call rule. I said "Good night" and she was telling me good night, calling me "baby" and all the other nice things. It made me sad but... .  the sweet words just don't have the kind of weight they used to. The words don't touch me anymore. That is how I know that I'm not all there anymore. Whether it's falling out of love, or just being beaten down for so long that everything is just so far away.

It's sad because I really do love her. I know I do. I probably always will. But the truth about the relationship is that it's dysfunctional. It can't work out because it ISN'T working out. Or it WASN'T working out. I think re-engaging was denial. The feeling I had while she was having her affairs were the anger. Now it's just sadness.

My honest opinion is that you are entering the end game with her, so try to overcome your shock and grief... .  

(Taken from my last thread.)

End game. It's a harsh pill, but it's something I saw coming. It's this feeling that tells you you're gonna crash. You try to do your best, PRAY that whatever little things you do might turn it around. But somewhere deep down, you know that it just delays the inevitable. God's truth is, that feeling came around a few months into the relationship when she decided to push boundaries that I didn't like being pushed. At first that feeling was like single drop of water. It got rainy over the last year.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for being so supportive. Hopefully I won't re-engage again. It'll feel good for a moment, but that feeling won't last. I'll always know what happened. I'll always remember the pain.

I hope to continue posting here.

1. For those who left their R/S. Did you ever get the feeling that for some reason, the relationship just won't work no matter how much effort you put in. If you did, when? Did you stick around? Why/why not? How long until you just couldn't stay?

2. What exactly was the breaking point for your relationship? Was it an affair? Was it violence? Was it verbal/emotional abuse?

3. Also, when your exBPDSO would describe a wonder future with the two of you together, did you buy it? Did it feel like they really wanted those things? Did their "grand plans" make you WANT the relationship to work?

[GreenMango]

"Baby, I can cuddle with whoever I want."

Wow... .  She sounds completely incapable of the type of relationship you want.  I guess this could be true if you allow yourself to be in a relationship with her.

1. For those who left their R/S. Did you ever get the feeling that for some reason, the relationship just won't work no matter how much effort you put in. If you did, when? Did you stick around? Why/why not? How long until you just couldn't stay?

Yes. Especially during the last year it, the behavior was amplified by about 1000 despite the demands that were being made of me where unreasonable compared to what I was getting as far as disrespect, unpredictability etc. 5 years was enough.

2. What exactly was the breaking point for your relationship? Was it an affair? Was it violence? Was it verbal/emotional abuse?

It was a combination of things.  Increasing visits to the drug buffet, lost a job, pitting family against eachother, undermining friendships... .  I knew I was on the final leg of my one way ticket to chaos.

3. Also, when your exBPDSO would describe a wonder future with the two of you together, did you buy it? Did it feel like they really wanted those things? Did their "grand plans" make you WANT the relationship to work?

At first, then after awhile I realized I didn't trust this person to be good for their word.  I lost most of the respect and trust, once that's gone it's like being a policeman instead of a partner.  I didn't want that future.



Piece of advice... .  really start to look at what you want for your life and if this person can reasonable be a part of this as is.  Your life is important. 

[struggli]

Anyway, that day I told her that I still am unhappy in the relationship and my boundaries have shifted. I don't trust the guys she hangs out with. I told her, "Look, no more kissing, not even on the cheek, ever AT ALL. A hug maybe to say hello and goodbye and no more."

She asked if she could still cuddle up with people and I said "No, I'm following my gut here and saying no to that. It makes me uncomfortable knowing that you're doing that." She started explaining how physical contact was the only way she could show she cares for a friend. (I want to make a biting comment on that, but I'd rather not. You folks can fill in the blanks pretty well I think.) But eventually she agreed. I explained it this way "Look, if you cut the guy off it will sorta show you some true colors of the nature of your friendship. Either he's an actual friend that respects both you and your relationship. Or he's just a stalker type who's just biding his time. Or he'll leave." Like I said, she eventually agreed to the terms.

This was what did it for me.  Same kind of thing.

All her friends were guys.  Every one of them had either dated her or expressed that they wanted to.  She said it was OK; they were only friends.  I expressed concern.

She kept in contact with her ex who she went back to anytime she got uncomfortable with anything, even though we had agreed that this would stop.

She held hands with guys.  I asked her to stop.

She'd put her arm around their waists.  I asked her to stop.

Then, when a guy would try to kiss her or would slap her on the butt, she was the victim.  She'd come to me and tell me like she was innocent and violated.  I told her her body language and interaction led on everyone.

She had many texting relationships, of which I was never able to see the content, except by accident.  I asked her to stop.

Initially she was open about all of this, but I told her I didn't like any of this behavior, so she just hid it instead.

I still have a real hard time with this stuff, more than any other drama in the relationship, because I was led to believe I was controlling, disgustingly jealous, just a terrible boyfriend for not being OK with all that.  She said she expressed her love and connection through touch and had done it her whole life.  What's weird is I never saw her put her hands on women while she was talking to them.  Nor did she even do that with me.

One time we were in a bar.  It was me, her, a female co-worker of mine, a guy who worked at the bar.  Ex put her hand on the guy's arm while she was talking to him and left it there for an uncomfortable (for me) amount of time.  I felt so belittled and even that others around me lost respect for me.  Projection perhaps, but it made me feel sick to see her hand rested upon someone else for more than a split second.

She called me "baby" too.  Was she the same girl?

[afterdeath]

Anyway, that day I told her that I still am unhappy in the relationship and my boundaries have shifted. I don't trust the guys she hangs out with. I told her, "Look, no more kissing, not even on the cheek, ever AT ALL. A hug maybe to say hello and goodbye and no more."

She asked if she could still cuddle up with people and I said "No, I'm following my gut here and saying no to that. It makes me uncomfortable knowing that you're doing that." She started explaining how physical contact was the only way she could show she cares for a friend. (I want to make a biting comment on that, but I'd rather not. You folks can fill in the blanks pretty well I think.) But eventually she agreed. I explained it this way "Look, if you cut the guy off it will sorta show you some true colors of the nature of your friendship. Either he's an actual friend that respects both you and your relationship. Or he's just a stalker type who's just biding his time. Or he'll leave." Like I said, she eventually agreed to the terms.

This was what did it for me.  Same kind of thing.

All her friends were guys.  Every one of them had either dated her or expressed that they wanted to.  She said it was OK; they were only friends.  I expressed concern.

She kept in contact with her ex who she went back to anytime she got uncomfortable with anything, even though we had agreed that this would stop.

She held hands with guys.  I asked her to stop.

She'd put her arm around their waists.  I asked her to stop.

Then, when a guy would try to kiss her or would slap her on the butt, she was the victim.  She'd come to me and tell me like she was innocent and violated.  I told her her body language and interaction led on everyone.

She had many texting relationships, of which I was never able to see the content, except by accident.  I asked her to stop.

Initially she was open about all of this, but I told her I didn't like any of this behavior, so she just hid it instead.

I still have a real hard time with this stuff, more than any other drama in the relationship, because I was led to believe I was controlling, disgustingly jealous, just a terrible boyfriend for not being OK with all that.  She said she expressed her love and connection through touch and had done it her whole life.  What's weird is I never saw her put her hands on women while she was talking to them.  Nor did she even do that with me.

One time we were in a bar.  It was me, her, a female co-worker of mine, a guy who worked at the bar.  Ex put her hand on the guy's arm while she was talking to him and left it there for an uncomfortable (for me) amount of time.  I felt so belittled and even that others around me lost respect for me.  Projection perhaps, but it made me feel sick to see her hand rested upon someone else for more than a split second.

She called me "baby" too.  Was she the same girl?

This is where I pull the bull card out. You're not anything she just described you as, she's just a hussy looking for attention, sorry, she's got major issues.

If anything you are guilty of the same crime I was: being too nice.

Her office mate told me I was too nice of a guy for her as he confessed she was messing around with another guy while engaged to me. This angered me, since when is it a punishable crime to be a good guy. This is where we stand, this is where we hold them, this is where we fight... .  Spartans! Tonite, we dine in hell!

On a serious note, we have been castrated and it is time to grow a new set and become men again. Healthy secure men would not tolerate this behavior. Either the guys getting a but whooping or the girl is getting shipped out. You did nothing wrong.

She is very sick.you are better off.

[struggli]

Anyway, that day I told her that I still am unhappy in the relationship and my boundaries have shifted. I don't trust the guys she hangs out with. I told her, "Look, no more kissing, not even on the cheek, ever AT ALL. A hug maybe to say hello and goodbye and no more."

She asked if she could still cuddle up with people and I said "No, I'm following my gut here and saying no to that. It makes me uncomfortable knowing that you're doing that." She started explaining how physical contact was the only way she could show she cares for a friend. (I want to make a biting comment on that, but I'd rather not. You folks can fill in the blanks pretty well I think.) But eventually she agreed. I explained it this way "Look, if you cut the guy off it will sorta show you some true colors of the nature of your friendship. Either he's an actual friend that respects both you and your relationship. Or he's just a stalker type who's just biding his time. Or he'll leave." Like I said, she eventually agreed to the terms.

This was what did it for me.  Same kind of thing.

All her friends were guys.  Every one of them had either dated her or expressed that they wanted to.  She said it was OK; they were only friends.  I expressed concern.

She kept in contact with her ex who she went back to anytime she got uncomfortable with anything, even though we had agreed that this would stop.

She held hands with guys.  I asked her to stop.

She'd put her arm around their waists.  I asked her to stop.

Then, when a guy would try to kiss her or would slap her on the butt, she was the victim.  She'd come to me and tell me like she was innocent and violated.  I told her her body language and interaction led on everyone.

She had many texting relationships, of which I was never able to see the content, except by accident.  I asked her to stop.

Initially she was open about all of this, but I told her I didn't like any of this behavior, so she just hid it instead.

I still have a real hard time with this stuff, more than any other drama in the relationship, because I was led to believe I was controlling, disgustingly jealous, just a terrible boyfriend for not being OK with all that.  She said she expressed her love and connection through touch and had done it her whole life.  What's weird is I never saw her put her hands on women while she was talking to them.  Nor did she even do that with me.

One time we were in a bar.  It was me, her, a female co-worker of mine, a guy who worked at the bar.  Ex put her hand on the guy's arm while she was talking to him and left it there for an uncomfortable (for me) amount of time.  I felt so belittled and even that others around me lost respect for me.  Projection perhaps, but it made me feel sick to see her hand rested upon someone else for more than a split second.

She called me "baby" too.  Was she the same girl?

This is where I pull the bull card out. You're not anything she just described you as, she's just a hussy looking for attention, sorry, she's got major issues.

If anything you are guilty of the same crime I was: being too nice.

Her office mate told me I was too nice of a guy for her as he confessed she was messing around with another guy while engaged to me. This angered me, since when is it a punishable crime to be a good guy. This is where we stand, this is where we hold them, this is where we fight... .  Spartans! Tonite, we dine in hell!

On a serious note, we have been castrated and it is time to grow a new set and become men again. Healthy secure men would not tolerate this behavior. Either the guys getting a but whooping or the girl is getting shipped out. You did nothing wrong.

She is very sick.you are better off.

I never felt it was the guy's fault, except for one time when a jerkoff was blatantly hitting on her right in front of me.  However, she seemed to eat up his attention and I asked her to ignore him.  She didn't.

Otherwise, she was clearly always the instigator/enabler.

But what made it difficult is she was SO convinced she was right that this was all OK.

Her:  As far back as I can remember, maybe since I was 5, I have always made friends by touching people.

Me:  Um, well, you are not 5 anymore.  I did things when I was 5 that worked when I was 5.  But those things would not be favorable as an adult.  You are an adult now and that behavior doesn't work as an adult.  Guys think you want to have sex with them when you act like that.

Her:  You are such a jerk.  I wouldn't have sex with them.  You're the only one I have sex with.

Me:  Where do you draw the line?  What's inappropriate to you?

Her:  (pause)  Groping, touching private parts... .  

Me:  What about holding hands?

Her:  (getting upset) No

Me:  That's inappropriate.  I could see how if you were 5 it wouldn't be, but as an adult, it is, unless it's me.

Her:  (silent treatment for a couple days, no contact, no visit,... .  desertion)


Other thoughts of hers:

"Everyone should flirt all the time."

"My boss is sexual.  It's part of his culture.  Don't be threatened by it."

"All you (struggli) care about is sex."

"YOU taught me jealousy.  It's a very ugly emotion which I never experienced before you."

After we'd been together 2 years: 

Her: I read some things in this book about sexual abuse healing... .  For instance, I've had more sexual partners than I would've liked.

Me:  Huh?  I thought I was your second bf and your first was your only one?

Her:  Well, uh, I cheated on him with about ten different guys to try to understand my abuse.

Me:  Have you ever cheated on me?

Her: No

Me: Have you ever cheated on me?

Her: No

Me:  Have you ever cheated on me?

Her: No

2 weeks later... .  

Says she needs space.  Going out to bars with guy friends.  Not calling.  Ignoring my calls.

That's when I broke up.

[MaybeSo]

Vatz, Congratulations for sticking to your boundaries! Nicely done! Yeah!

A healthy Adult male would see this infantile need for attention and affection through touching and cuddling with any/all others as a sign of immaturity... .  that this/these women are stuck at about Age five emotionally and are therefore not available for adult relating, and therefore are not available period. Still,  many immature men will flock around such a woman for their own immature Reasons.  It has nothing to do with YOU personally. Our protracted involvement announces our immaturity on some level, too, this is true.  But we can learn and grow-up through experience, while a disordered individual cannot learn from experience and will repeat the same faulty behavior for decades.

[Surnia]

Vaz

I feel your sadness. And I am very impressed how you could stick with your values and boundaries! So in all the sadness you can also be proud of yourself.

I really love your words:

It's sad because I really do love her. I know I do. I probably always will. But the truth about the relationship is that it's dysfunctional. It can't work out because it ISN'T working out. Or it WASN'T working out. I think re-engaging was denial. The feeling I had while she was having her affairs were the anger. Now it's just sadness.

Please keep on posting here. For yourself, to find your way in a new life, to overcome your sadness. And for others who are struggling here.

[Vatz]

Struggli

Wow, man. I thought my situation was bad. She never actually had the balls to flirt with someone in front of my face. Her creepy stalker friend (most recent EA, and probably her next victim) once came over while I was there. We hung out. I figured, if they're friends then maybe he and I can be friends too. I wouldn't mind getting into her circle. But we all hung out, I shook the guy's hand. Later she told me how uncomfortable he felt seeing the two of us together. She and I didn't hug, we didn't kiss. We all just sat down together and watched a movie and made fun of it. I myself do not like PDA, especially in front of my friends. She did not touch him or flirt with him or anything. I know she wouldn't do it right in front of me. I know this... .  because Tyler knows this. (Thumbs up for anyone who gets the reference.)

But she did probably do it behind my back. I was never comfortable letting her occasionally kiss or hug a dude. But me, I like to at least TRY to see if a certain boundary can be pushed. Sort of like calibration, you know? But I didn't like it because of where it tended to lead her. So eventually I told her to stop. She agreed, even though a week later on the night of the break-up she said she could cuddle with people, disregarding what I told her. Right then I knew it was just a matter of time. I was fortunate (and strong enough) that it happened sooner than later.

Here's the thing, I already know what happened while I wasn't around. She and her friend were talking, she probably complained about how it would be so hard moving to my state, even though she has SSI and is on disability (fibro, and schizophrenia which she was taking meds for.)

This guy probably offered to let her stay with him if things didn't work out with the two of us. She wouldn't be so bold about her little ultimatums unless she KNEW she had a way out. It's "Sun Tzu 101." So she laid it down and said "You can either move in with me in a year, or we just won't be together." I know what it means. She COULD have looked for her own place in her own state, got on benefits, get into public housing. In this scenario, we could still actually date... .  

... .  But I KNOW she was going to live with the other guy. And he's a friend who wants something in return for his "kindness." Hoping you folks can follow my logic here. The facts all point to her moving in with him. Oddly enough, I'm not actually upset about this.

She's with him out of necessity. Pure and total necessity. He'll always know that the only reason she even got with him is because he gave her a place to stay. Right now he THINKS that it makes him such an awesome guy, but once the abuse sets in, he'll regret it. I have no sympathy for him, either. He's weak. Once she's done with him there will be nothing left. I let the abuse go on for a while, but I handled it as best as I could. He won't be able to. It's like poetic justice. He decides it's okay to be disrespectful and inconsiderate of the person in her life, now that she'll be in his life, well he might not actually survive the encounter. 'Serves him right.

Right, well I'm not actually too upset at the moment. I have classes to go to, things to do. I love my video games so I can really play them without worrying about "Oh geez, I hope she doesn't call right now, I'm REALLY immersed here." Being a phys ed major I'm gonna get a healthy dose of exercise, diet needs work though. I have a friend who's company I TOTALLY enjoy, now that my weekends are open I can see him. We can just BS and play games, watch movies and junk. It'll be awesome. I got a niece whom I adore and will hang out with, sometimes let her stay a weekend every so often. Why not, right?

It WOULD be nice to start dating but I don't feel right about it. I mean, if someone fell into my lap, yeah sure. But I gotta work out, get in better shape. After all, my partner's physical attraction to me is incredibly important so I may as well optimize. And ya know what? Who knows, I might date someone of a totally difference ethnic background, or something. Could be pretty exciting. But not yet, not right now. I've been slowly disengaging emotionally over the last year, but it just isn't appropriate yet.

It's like that South Park episode where towards the end Stan says "Things can't go back to how they were, but maybe they can be better." In fact, it was on last night. It came on like an hour after our break-up spat. Funny, huh? 

[Vatz]

She called me "baby" too.  Was she the same girl?

But seriously, yeah it's kinda funny that way. She called everyone "baby", ended every conversation with an "i love you" even dudes. Which thinking about it now, it probably led these guys to think "Oh she totally likes me that way." Honestly, for the longest time I had no problem with her saying "I love you" to people. It was after the first affair that I sorta got a little angry at it.

Anyway, sorry to hear about the thing she did at the bar. I'd have just drove home. Doesn't matter if she had a ride or not, she chose to do that ___, she can find her own way home. Right?

[struggli]

Hi Vatz,

I got the Fight Club reference immediately.

It's weird, because I've been thinking about the movie lately.  You know that scene at the end when "Cornelius" is figuring out that he is Tyler?  When his memories are flashing back and he remembers he's actually punching himself?  And it's him, not Tyler, standing on the top of the (Parker Morris?) building yelling at all the space monkeys?

All his original memories were masking that it was him doing all that stuff... .  

That little clip has been playing through my mind lately.

The part where the mental facade he created starts disintegrating parallels my memories becoming more clear on the relationship.  It's like the relationship wasn't happening at all like the reality I thought I was experiencing.  And I sit there with the same puzzled look as Cornelius/Rupert/narrator not believing that somehow I deceived myself to see a completely different truth as the real truth keeps trying to push its way in.

Maybe that's all too abstract at this hour... .  

I wish I could say more in response to your posts but my eyes are getting heavy.

Hope you're doing ok.

[Vatz]

Maybe that's all too abstract at this hour... .  

Actually it makes sense. It's sort of like... .  

We saw this person, and at first they seem really awesome. But it turns out, that person wasn't really all there on the inside. All those talks, conversations, intimate moments, they weren't there. It was just them mirroring us (or a lot of it was mirroring.) But we believed it. Our co-dependency is what let them in.

[sirhero]

It's been FOREVER since I last posted on here. My exwBPD thankfully didn't flirt with other guys in front of me, actually she was quite the opposite.The only physical touch she wanted at the time we were together was from me. She did not like touching or letting others touch her at all. Which I found to be a good thing. However, after many break ups and recycles it did eventually lead to her cheating on me. And things were never the same afterwards. I have LC with her now and I've all but moved on from her. It's interesting to see from the outside how she behaves with a SO. The sad thing is, is that ever since her RS with me she hasn't been the same so to speak. It's nice to be free from the FOG though. I've been able to do so much that I couldn't do before. I've built a bad@ss PC for gaming, see my friends a lot more, and just get to have a lot more fun now. I feel the old me returning and getting along with the new me and it's a great feeling. I harbor no ill feelings towards my ex she has apologized enough to me and that's honestly all I wanted.

Nice RO profile pic by the way Vatz, I haven't played that game in years . Let me know if you ever want to game or just chat.