Re-Examining Myself: Empathy Issues and Birth of Boundaries

[Iced]

Talking with everyone here and just listening to -everything- that is being talked about has been a very therapeutic and learning experience for me; I'm really glad that I came here and to be honest, even if I didn't have the experience of being in a close friendship with a person with severe disordered attachment issues, I think this place would have been/be beneficial anyways so long as I were open to listening and learning and doing more self discovery.

I really love the idea of taking personal inventory; a literal chance to step back and check the contents of my rucksack as it were before I resume my journeys onwards in life.

The topic that I would like to take personal inventory on is something that I have struggled with throughout my lifetime - from as young as I could remember to now (though back then and now are two different things and I have learned to 'catch' myself as it were).

My topic is Empathy Issues.  Or rather, what seem to be 'empathy' issues which then play into 'boundaries' issues.

For all of my life for as long as I can remember and I can remember as far back as my toddler years, I have always been able to - I can't describe it appropriately in any other way - 'sense' emotions from those around me.  Happiness, anger, sadness, fear, etc.

This, as you can imagine, contributed and contributes to my sometimes shaky boundary issues (which is how I eventually ended up in the last situation that I did, though at least in that case, I knew that I had set inappropriate boundaries). 

When I mentioned this to my psyD the last time I saw them, they asked if perhaps I was trying to compensate somehow by trying to anticipate how others would feel and act so I could avoid conflict.  Related to this, they asked if I had had difficulties at home.

The answer to the first is no.  When I randomly went up to a stranger - an example I remember is when my parents took me and my siblings to a local park and I saw an elderly gentleman who was sitting on the park bench next to my parents and was looking sad and so I approached him - and hugged him, I wasn't expecting or desiring any kind of reciprocation whatsoever.  It seemed... .  'right' to hug him (kind of how it felt right that my parents would hug me if I wasn't feeling well, I think?) and... .  that was that.  He actually wanted to approach me after that and I actually shied away as the reciprocation of attention was beyond the scope of me wanting to hug them.   

The answer to the second is no.  I grew up in a very loving environment and though my family had its own share of minor infighting and arguments now and again, at the end all be all, we were (and still are) very close and I can very honestly say that we were able and are all able to treat each other with respect and value each other for who we are.

In regards to my 'empathy' problem, both of my parents were aware of this beginning around the same time I myself took note that I was sensitive to others (toddler years) and took measures to try and teach me to develop healthy boundaries that I somehow wasn't apparently developing on my own.

... .  In all honesty, at the beginning, I didn't even understand the concept of boundaries and I got myself into trouble for randomly hugging strangers (usually those who seemed sad and hugs made people feel better! was the rationale and this happened between the ages of 3 to 5 mostly) and it wasn't until I was old enough to truly comprehend my parents' concerns (and therefore became concerned for my own well-being) that I started to build boundaries.

I remember clearly that at the age of eight, I brought a friend over and my parents were confused as to why I chose the person I did because this same person was someone who had stolen my crayons at school and had gotten me in trouble for... .  I forget what.  When I was approached with this concern, I had actually forgotten that those things had happened and since we were now getting along fine, I had simply gone ahead and invited them over.  It wasn't a matter of wanting to be liked (something my mother asked me); rather, it was more like 'water under a bridge'.

Years later as I got older, I 'wised up' to my ways and - like I said - started building boundaries and adhering to them.  I was more cautious and with my logical brain being more developed, I rationally knew that I needed to protect myself.

Despite logically knowing this, a part of me still remained... .  naive, almost.  Like the part of me that randomly hugged strangers who were looking sad just because never quite grew up.  The 'empathy problem' never stopped or ended; only by continuous and conscientious effort on my part that my 'empathy problem' was curbed and I kept myself safe with healthy boundaries.

It doesn't come naturally and has never come naturally to me and it takes great effort.  The guarded person that I outwardly am is here to protect the three year old that I used to be who saw someone sad and wanted to hug them to make them feel better, and then be on their merry way minding their own business.

After so many years of rebuffing inappropriate attention from persons who have a tendency to push at boundaries, I am concerned that I myself have a disorder of some sort and have possibly had one my entire life.

My previous psyD mentioned that I had what seemed to be an innate tendency to have 'thin boundaries' and 'strong empathy (or what seems to be empathy) for others', but my logical and rational mind - the part of me that understood what dangers could come of it - protected me and still protects me and I think that this is about as true as I can articulate it to be.

Because of how early it started manifesting and because of how my home life was, my previous psyD doesn't think it's related to childhood trauma.  Being neuro-atypical somehow was offered as a possibility but it was never something explored further because by the time I started trying to really understand myself and how I operated, I was already well into my adult years.

Though I have had a tendency to get involved - mostly friends - with persons who have a tendency to push at my boundaries, I haven't had much trouble in the grand scheme of things of getting out and getting away when I needed to and though I have let guilt influence my decision to lower some of my boundaries, it was also a specific case where the person in question was younger and a minor/non-adult and I felt responsible in a way I normally wouldn't.

I guess where I am right now is that I simply would like to know where, exactly, all of this is coming from - where the origins of it all is, as it were.

Why?

To better understand myself which will help me to better understand my part in people's lives and also allow me to better communicate myself and how I operate to other people.

I have coped, managed, and developed useful tools and will continue to do so and will continue to step back and re-examine.  I CAN and AM able to develop and stand by my boundaries and believe that what I am doing is healthy.

But I want to know where this is all coming from, too.

That said, any thoughts or ideas or need for clarification?

[mosaicbird]

A couple of questions come to mind.

Do the emotions of the people for whom you're feeling this empathy affect or alter your own emotional state to match theirs? If you encounter someone who is angry or sad, does it ruin the rest of your day by making you take those emotions on as your own, or are you able to return to your previous emotional state after you feel and express your empathy for the other person?

Do you feel a need to make people happy and do you feel a need to "fix" unhappy or unpleasant emotions in others (because without doing so, you can't be happy yourself)?

I am not getting any red flags from your post... .  Typically when we think of unhealthy boundaries with regards to empathy, we're thinking of instances in which one is unable to differentiate oneself from others; that is, we are incapable of distinguishing which emotions belong to us, and which emotions belong to other people, and the desire to make others happy is because we are incapable of experiencing happiness for ourselves when it's absent in others.

[Iced]

Hey mosaic!

Thanks for stopping by and thanks for the questions!

I think that quiz we talked about earlier may be dead-on about OCD tendencies; when I write I tend to try and explain everything in my mind on the first go in as orderly as a fashion as I can, hence some long posts (kind of like this one).  That said, thanks for bearing with me as I answer the questions.

Do the emotions of the people for whom you're feeling this empathy affect or alter your own emotional state to match theirs? If you encounter someone who is angry or sad, does it ruin the rest of your day by making you take those emotions on as your own, or are you able to return to your previous emotional state after you feel and express your empathy for the other person?

I would feel sad at seeing and feeling their sadness, but once I expressed the empathy (a hug, words of support for example), I more or less returned/would return to my own state of affairs as it were.  Kind of the whole, "going back to my own business" sort of thing.

There have been a few examples where my attachment to the other person (non-strangers) had me worrying for them, but I always recognized that their emotions were their emotions and my emotions were my emotions and that their lives are their lives, etc.

There has been a time or two where I've been 'overwhelmed' but they are few and far in between.  However, one instance does stand out in my mind:

I recall an incident where I was hospitalized and I shared a room with another patient.  I was not well at the time - emotionally and physically - and to hear the diagnosis and prognosis from the visiting doctor at the time (why in the world the doctor chose to visit at the dead of night when everyone is usually sleeping and to talk about medical affairs then when there is another patient in the room separated by a thick curtain is beyond me) that my roommate had end stage cancer and then to hear my roommate try to be brave with words and acceptance while their tone of voice betrayed such unexpected pain was... .  really painful.

It wasn't my life that was ending nor my pain to bear, but I felt for my roommate and for their pain, for the imminent and unexpected loss of life.  I was a wreck that night; the atmosphere on the other side of the room felt very desperate (probably obviously so, given the context of the conversation that had happened), but given that I myself was in the hospital at the time, I wasn't in the best of shape, either, so that probably contributed.

But the next morning, after expressing warmth and sharing some laughter with my roommate (and trading breakfasts since they were diabetic and I was not and somehow, our breakfasts got swapped around), I was more or less back to my self without anything residual left over.  My own business as usual.

Do you feel a need to make people happy and do you feel a need to "fix" unhappy or unpleasant emotions in others (because without doing so, you can't be happy yourself)?

No, I'm pretty sure not.

Though the whole purpose of approaching is to maybe provoke a smile, or create warmth, or maybe offer hope that there is something else, I don't feel like I can't be happy unless I "fix" it or try to "fix" it.

If this were the case, working in customer service would have been completely hellish and impossible because I would be completely bogged down by all the verbal attacks (internalizing it all) that sometimes result from frustrated customers or customers who can never be pleased or made happy.

I won't lie and say that I don't feel warmth if something I said or did provoked a positive reaction because that would be untrue, but at the same time, I could just as easily have gone on without that positive feedback.  Basically, how my day feels to me doesn't hinge or very very seldom hinges on the emotional feedback received or not received as a result of me giving attention to whoever for whatever reason.

My parents taught me to treat others how I would like to be treated... .  and I wonder if maybe I literally took it too literally.

I extend a smile or a hug (hugs less so nowadays ) or a few words just because I can and because I feel like it.  It's polite to open doors for people who have their arms full, but I don't feel important or accomplished or needed or, "Oh man, I did something great!" just because I did it as... .  well... .  that was never the intention in the first place.  In fact, if someone else tries to make a big deal about it, I have a much stronger tendency to feel uncomfortable about it rather than happy and pleased to the point I sometimes wonder if I should have even done it in the first place.  Moment in the spotlight definitely not for me!

I am not getting any red flags from your post... .  Typically when we think of unhealthy boundaries with regards to empathy, we're thinking of instances in which one is unable to differentiate oneself from others; that is, we are incapable of distinguishing which emotions belong to us, and which emotions belong to other people, and the desire to make others happy is because we are incapable of experiencing happiness for ourselves when it's absent in others.

Thank you for your observation and the points and reminders that you made.

I'm a believer that though the people and experiences around us can enrich us (or conversely hurt us), we are, ultimately, the captains of our own ships and so we are responsible for our own selves at the end all be all.

So the end all be all seems to be closest to:

I feel the empathy strongly, but I can and do distinguish what is mine and what is someone else's and I don't take it upon myself to "fix" someone else and I don't feel obligated to do so.  I may feel warmth in response to a, "thank you", but anything more than that is more likely to feel rather odd than anything else as I have already at that time returned to my own state of affairs.

[mosaicbird]

I seem to be referring to this blog a lot lately, but I think you might find this post on empathy (what it is, why it fails in some people, etc.) interesting. www.afterpsychotherapy.com/why-empathy-fails/ The opening paragraph essentially summarizes the healthy boundary establishment and maintenance you spoke of in your posts:

"In order to empathize with another person, you have to recognize that he actually exists apart from and without specific reference to you.  You must understand that she has a distinct identity and an interior life of her own, with which you might possibly empathize."

Even in your experience in the hospital, it sounds like your experience of the emotions of the other patient was an instance of putting yourself in his position as an individual, and understanding what it would be like to be in that situation. (With perhaps some residual emotional energy in the atmosphere, which I think is natural in those sorts of intense emotional situations.)

[Grey Kitty]

I think there are several parts to this "empathy" you speak of:

First there is perception of how another person is feeling.

Consider yourself lucky to be skilled here. Some people are blind. Some are badly myopic. Some have 20/20 vision. Others have eagle-eyes that are better than 20/20. Here is a good ability you have. Others have less of it. You can't make yours go away, or give it to another person. This is just how it is.

Second is caring about what that person is feeling.

Another word for this is compassion. It is a good thing, something to encourage. (There are other reactions to the pain of another like pity which aren't as good)

Third is responding to those feelings.

Here is your chance to make the world a better place!

You have a choice--you can run up and hug this stranger... .  or choose some other action. Sounds like you are working on this one. As long as you think about the choice before you do it, you shouldn't have problems. And if you do create some problems for yourself, you will notice, and the next time you think about it you'll try something better!

Fourth is losing yourself in the other person's feelings.

This doesn't do you or the other person any good. It sounds like you've had this happen a few times, but you are trying to avoid this now.

Does breaking it down like this help you think about it?

[Iced]

Mosaic:  Thanks a bunch for that link; I now have it saved so I can use it to 'remind' myself when I start having doubts or start struggling with balancing things out and keeping myself centered and focused in regards to empathy.

Grey Kitty:  Actually, yes it does.  

Thanks for breaking it down for me like that; Mosaic started the breakdown and this rather finalizes the clarification of it.

I guess because I have seen some trouble before (mostly from people who somehow interpret empathy as "OH! A NEW RESCUER!" which then means I have accidentally run into a situation I did not want to get involved in), I still struggle from time to time in figuring out when it's "okay" to show that empathy and when I sometimes need to - well, for lack of a better term - "ice it" because showing it will do both parties more harm than any good.

It goes against who I am to "ice it", but until I have built my boundaries stronger than they are now and am able to stand by them all the time, I am at risk of putting myself in an unsafe and unhealthy position to be chosen as someone's "Rescuer".

I HAVE been working on my reaction to the feelings for sure.  Or... .  trying to, anyways.  That was one of the things my therapist and I worked on right away when I first started seeing them because without greater self awareness, it can definitely lead to trouble.

As a result, though the kid in me used to run up and hug someone, the adult that I now am doesn't do that anymore... .  unless it's family or someone really close to me whom I am "safe" in showing such a thing to and can trust to be "safe".

These days, it's mostly just been listening - or trying to listen - and just kind of "be there" for them if the situation is healthy enough to allow for it (and if I myself am healthy enough to manage it, too).

I am also working on my boundaries - or trying to - and like temporarily putting the ice to my empathy, this goes against my nature, too, in its own ways.

Does it make sense when I say that as a young child, I never saw or understood the reasons for boundaries?  At least, not until later?

Kids would push other kids into the mud for what seemed to be "just for fun", but that sort of thing was never something I myself ever engaged in unless out of self defense.  As a result, though, I also got hurt when other kids did those sorts of things to me.

"Why did they do that in the first place?" is the question I always asked, and the reason I asked it is because I myself could never truly comprehend wanting to do that to someone else.

My parents had a very difficult time trying to teach me and explain to me things regarding this.

Though as an adult, I think I now "get it", there's a part of me - that young child I once was - who still asks, "Why did they ever do such things in the first place?"

Building boundaries became a preventive measure - something I learned to do to protect myself just in case, but at the heart of it all, some part of me still doesn't completely understand why I ever had to be on guard like that in the first place.

Thanks again to you both for your thoughts; I really appreciate it!

[Grey Kitty]

Building boundaries became a preventive measure - something I learned to do to protect myself just in case, but at the heart of it all, some part of me still doesn't completely understand why I ever had to be on guard like that in the first place.

Boundaries aren't quite the same as keeping people at a distance.

Boundaries are the awareness that there is a point where you end and the other person begins. You can keep the other person far away, or hold them close to you, and you can do this with or without boundaries.

I've got a relative who is really bad a boundaries, and she seems to be choosing to keep most people at a physical (and emotional) distance from her, since being close and not understanding the boundary is so painful to her. (OK, I think she's kinda depressed too)

The more clear your boundaries are, the more you can be safe when you let someone get close to you. That is why they are so good for you.

[Iced]

Building boundaries became a preventive measure - something I learned to do to protect myself just in case, but at the heart of it all, some part of me still doesn't completely understand why I ever had to be on guard like that in the first place.

Boundaries aren't quite the same as keeping people at a distance.

Boundaries are the awareness that there is a point where you end and the other person begins. You can keep the other person far away, or hold them close to you, and you can do this with or without boundaries.

I've got a relative who is really bad a boundaries, and she seems to be choosing to keep most people at a physical (and emotional) distance from her, since being close and not understanding the boundary is so painful to her. (OK, I think she's kinda depressed too)

The more clear your boundaries are, the more you can be safe when you let someone get close to you. That is why they are so good for you.

Ah ha!

Thank you for that thought; I think this will help me (and it's something I can bring up with my therapist, too) as I continue to work on myself (and my boundaries).

To clarify a bit, keeping people at a distance became a preventive measure in the sense of being something of an alternative solution to involving myself too much with people who have a tendency to push at boundaries and push hard.  For example, my former friend with severe attachment issues.

I don't keep -everyone- at a distance, but if I see red flags in regards to certain behaviors, I will maintain a certain 'distance' from the people who are exhibiting them.

If my personal sense of my own boundaries were stronger and if I could say that I had little trouble defending them (and I do defend them; but I also have a difficult time understanding why people will choose to push these boundaries in the first place and keep trying to push them and so defending my boundaries becomes more taxing than I think it normally ought to be... .  normally being a subjective term), then perhaps that 'distance' wouldn't be necessary.

But as it is, to prevent myself from getting too much involved in situations where my boundaries are always being pushed, there is the distance - the 'being on-guard'.

I hope I made some sense. 

Thanks again for your thoughts!