Contact during separation

[Mike_confused]

I have already spoken to my attorney.   She practically begged me not to file for divorce, and made no attempt at reconciliation.   I have not seen her in 4 weeks and I am living 30 miles away.

[pessim-optimist]

I understand your situation, however the possibilities of false accusations of past "crimes" (going beyond the 4 week separation) that you might find yourself to be accused of ex-post is vast, so caution advised.

I was blown away to read some of the examples in the book. 

[Mike_confused]

I will be cautious.   The strange thing is... .  if you caught my posts from today... .  I got the strong message that she doesn't actually want a divorce.  On the other hand... .  she hasn't made an overt attempt to reel me back in yet either.

[Mike_confused]

My whole string of posts today are intended to explain why I am more confused than ever.   She is gaslight me by modifying events of 4 weeks ago when I left by trying to say today that she didn't want me to leave.   And then in a subsequent conversation, indicating that she is not hot to file for divorce.   

I have read everything I can get my hands on regarding BPD for the last 6 months and yet today baffles me.

Help.

[Mike_confused]

Any and all:

is the behavior I described during my string of posts yesterday common to BPD in anyone else's experience?  I truly need feedback here.

Mike

[cal644]

I had a similar experience.  My wife asked and encouraged me for a divorce.  Even had me come to her T where her T told her we were toxic and needed a divorce.  Only her T beleived that and convinced my wife.  So now I get all the blame because I filed.  My answer to her was I respect your decision and your choices - yes I filed - but ultimatly it was your decesion because 1. you told me you haven't loved and resented me for years 2. You refused to got marriage counciling. 3. You decided to continue your EA and chose that over your family.  Needless to say even when I lay out my reasoning in black and white it still becomes all my fault.  I think she is having huge regrets and second thoughts but I'm sticking to my boundaries on #2 and #3. 

[Mike_confused]

You know... .  I believe ny uBPD wife's T has directed her this way, based on my wife's recounting of the marriage situation.   A very warped recounting I am sure.   She is also in a Recovery Support Group where I believe she painted me as a satan worshipping monster - completely inaccurate.

She is an easy mark for influence by anyone other than me currently.   And yet... .  she now is backing off on a divorce.

[tuum est61]

Any and all:

is the behavior I described during my string of posts yesterday common to BPD in anyone else's experience?  I truly need feedback here.

Mike

Mike,

It's common behavior and therapy is often supportive. You will have to make your own decisions as to how to proceed.  What do you want to do?  

[tuum est61]

Sorry to seem to be leaving questions with you rather than answers.

I rented an apartment for two months last summer before returning to my marital home. I got the same "I begged you to stay" gas lighting as well.  

My W did go through some therapy at the time - I was told by her that her therapist recommended she separate from me - but who knows what was said. My church attendance is viewed as hypocritical.  

The thing is a pwBPD simply doesn't process things the same way as you and me. They have an extremely fine filter on facts that only let's the ones through that protect them the most. We all do that to some extent - but our "presence of mind" pushes back on the strictly emotional response.  

Many of us "nons", however, have our own emotional issues - primarily codependency - that fuel this machine.  It's what lead many of us to be in this relationship in the first place.

It seems to me Mike that in questioning your W's behaviors, you remain very attuned (stuck) to trying to finding ways to manage them/ mitigate them. - control them - and you can't.  You have to learn how to live with these behaviors - whether you stay or leave.

[Mike_confused]

Well... .  I have given up the notion of controlling anything... .  I am tuned into them because I have read so much.   My questions come from a need to understand... .  it is the scientist in me.   

Let me put it this way... .  there is no way I will go back to her without an obvious change... .  and even then I will not give up my golden parachute.

I am amazed and confused by her behaviors and statements yesterday because they are outside my normal ability to understand... .  I have had to make a living on being rational, deliberate, thought out and gutsy... .  

she is none of the above... .  please do not consider my posts over the last 24 hours to be an indication that I am raising the white flag.

I have a need to understand... .  all you great folks here help me with that.

[wanttoknowmore]

Dear Mike-Confused,

The problem is that you are an Engineer whose mind thinks 2+2=4 but

the world of BPD is irrational and hyper-emotional where 2=2 sometimes eaquals 4, sometimes 3,sometimes 5 depending on the intensity and type of feelings boiling inside her. You can not understand such irrational behavior by rational methods. You can only feel them and conclude in broad terms,such as "she is pissed now",'she is anxious now',  "she is fearful now" so on and so forth. You have to supply her your rationality to keep her irrationality in check. In other words, you have to rent her your sense of self.

Rule is SET, that is Support, Empathy and Truth. MIKE sir, mind is not Math... Mind is poetry.

[Mike_confused]

I read poetry too... .  at the moment... .  I am sick of her inconsistency.  My heart breaks for her and I love her deeply, but I am ready to cut the rope and let her fall.   

In very basic terms, it is all give to her and no take from me - there is nothing left.    She either makes some progress or I will never see her again.


Based on these intense conclusions by me, I am trying to make sense of what appears to be a shift in her attitude.  I understand the basics of BPD.   I am simply trying to forecast what may come next, and whether I fish or cut bait.   

[wanttoknowmore]

Mike,

In life, we somtimes,get an unfair deal... such as being born with handicap, born in dirt poor family, married to a person who has cancer and you get the point. The decision we have to make is whether to accept and continue in such relationship or let it go? That depends on how much love you still have left for her after her behavior has spent most of it. If I were in your shoes,

I will sit down with her and make it clear in no uncertain terms that she needs to get into therapy if she wants to keep this relationship. If she refuses, cut the cord and set yourself  free. Freedom is your birthright.

[Mike_confused]

I love her.  She is in therapy... .  done all this... .  she ius using therapy to support her currently warped point of view.

What I am asking is:  based on my posts yesterday regarding her shift in behavior... .  does this indicate that she is attempting or will attempt to recycle?  I am trying to be prepared.  I am not willing to recycle a damn thing without major concessions on her part.   

I apologize if I was not clear about what I am trying to determine.  I appreciate you input... .  it is very helpful.

[pessim-optimist]

Mike,

I am still sorting thing out too. (I primarily post on the "parents of" since our main pwBPD is my husband's daughter), but we suspect his ex is BPD and he had a disaster of a divorce, terrible consequences in relationships with both of his daughters till today and his ex comes out lilly-white and he is still the monster 20 years later - I mean she destroyed his whole life, his reputation civil AND christian circles, finances you name it.

But, to your questions:

I think that the phrase "I hate you, don't leave me" describes it all pretty good. You may have even read the book with this title.

I think that whatever they want or don't want, they can't stand the feeling of being rejected. So, if she was divorcing you, that might be ok, but since you might be doing the "divorcing" in her mind - by filing, that feels to her like rejection and no matter what she wants ultimately, she can't stand the feeling of being rejected or abandoned by you. And that would be true even if she was doing the abandoning and felt for some way that you are doing it. Confusing, right?

Regarding the non-logic in their behavior, I find it SO confusing and frustrating too. What helps me is to stop myself from analyzing the situation logically, and try to think what is happening (emotions, context, circumstances) and I try to fit it into the patterns the books on BPD describe. I kind of created this "BPD logic" map in my mind and try to categorize their behaviors according to that map.

Regarding recycling, that's a hard one. I think she will do this to you for sure if you let her. As to the future of your relationship - it may end, or continue, but you will have to be in the driver seat, and the outcomes are dependent upon your new skills regarding BPD (validation, boundaries etc.), and your w's willingness or ability to adapt to the changes.

All the best to you! The theoretical world is so nice, it really gets messy/confusing when it comes to actual interactions!

[Mike_confused]

Her emotions are running wild right now.  I have read... .  "I hate you, don't leave me".    You are right about rational thought and logic not working for me.   She said I left her by walking out... .  true, after she punched me and locked me out of the house.   She melted down after I said I'd make it easier on her by filing for divorce - she has said for two months now she wants a divorce.   Not sure when though.

I suspect she is buying time hoping her emotions switch again before she makes another recycling attempt.


I am tucked away in the woods.  Peaceful, but strangely missing her.

[Mike_confused]

Separated on month today from my uBPD wife.  I have not seen her.  I do really miss her - most of the time.  My posts over the last few days indicate how she has twisted the story to be that I left her and she didn't want me to go.  Not how I remember it.  I also posted a detail of how during one of our phone conversations my uBPD wife was deriding me to such an extent that I said I would take the initiative and file for divorce this week.  Upon that statement from me she had a full crying meltdown saying we didn't have to rush. 

I expressed my awe of such a warped, dis-regulated reaction to the site members.  She is having surgery on her lower back to fuse two disks.   It does need to be done.   She can "FOCUS" on nothing else.   I understand her consternation over any surgery.   She told me we can maybe deal with things after she recovers post surgery.

"Maybe deal with things"?  I am just not communicating with her.  She has sent a couple texts to tell me about her aunt planning to stay with her after surgery and when her pre-op visit is.

Is this woman going to pull the trigger-so to speak?  I am not going to stay in limbo until it suits her.

Thoughts?

[tuum est61]

Tough times Mike.  An "anniversary" like this is tough.

I expressed my awe of such a warped, dis-regulated reaction to the site members.

As I read your post reiterating her "bizarre" behavior", I reflect on my own struggles with similar behavior by my own W.  I think that since spending time on this site, I have now reached an understanding that this is entirely normal and rational behavior for them.  It's not a place one gets to easily - it isn't really an epiphany - just a slow realization that finally hits a threshold where a modicum of peace and certainty amidst the chaos is found.  

I think that if you look closely at what your W is saying to you, trying to view it from her emotional laden perspective, wouldn't you agree that you did in fact "leave" her? Isn't your "taking the initiative and filing" AND "not communicating with her" part of that? Can you see that because she doesn't really want you to leave that she might "think" she begged you not to leave - even if she only said it once - or in fact didn't say it at all?  And because she FEELS this way, it is therefore FACT, so yeah, there's no need to rush to divorce?  

Is she going to pull a trigger?  I dont know.  Unlikely.  My W threatened to do so.  I never heard from a lawyer.   Did I get legal advice on my situation? Yes.  You should too - as preparation - should she act.  You don't have to "stay in limbo" but depending on what YOU want, you certainly don't have to be the one that pulls the trigger yourself, as long as you've taken appropriate precautions.

So she tried pulling you a bit with the details about her post op situation. What do you think you are going to do with that?

[Mike_confused]

tuum,


I am not going to do anything with her latest bait.  I can't, being painted black as I currently am, because my mere presence serves to annoy and anger her.

So do I just sit here and wait for her to make a move months from now?   That's not fair.   Moreover, I won't go back to her without a clear indication that she understands that she has a problem.  In other words, I have decided that if my lovely uBPD wife wishes to continue to believe and tell everyone that I am a bad guy with problems that ruined her life, well... .  she can continue to do that.

Without me.

I realize she may in fact never "fess up".   She is in therapy with someone that specializes in NPD and also, BPD.   If this T is worth a damn, she will or already has picked up on my wife's traits.   I can't bank on that.

My bottom line is that if she does come to me with the intent of reconciling, I won't do it unless I see some hope founded in concrete indicating that she can get some control of her emotions/BPD.

That is where I stand.  I can't relive the torment.

[tuum est61]

You know, my W went to therapy for several sessions - and on the surface - as she reports it - her therapist was "shocked" about how I was treating her - apparently insisting that my W even contact a lawyer to initiate the separation/divorce.  She wouldn't do it herself - said I needed to initiate the proceedings.  I held out a long time - several months - but I drew up a separation agreement - and had been holding it for 3 weeks when I suffered a particularly bad daily "you need to leave" dysregulation, so I pulled out the agreement and gave it to her.

Its been three months - and I've not been asked to leave again.  She hasn't even mentioned it.  

I'm not suggesting you "game play" with a separation agreement.   I was prepared to truly leave - I had in fact come back after leaving for 2 months - taking my own apartment in another neighborhood during last summer.  Giving my W the draft SA was done because since she was insisting she wanted me to leave - it was done to prepare for leaving.  It was not done maliciously nor with an intent to have her "change her mind" - even though the latter was what she did.  It was a truly dispassionate, emotionally detached act on my part - but felt strangely compassionate towards my W since she was so apparantly frustrated where we were "at".

What I am suggesting here is that only you are going to know what the next step is and when you need to take it.  You will take your own path - we are here to help you find it - it might be a bit brushed in and obscured but you will find it at just the right time. The pols on this site are great for brush clearing.

So, to be more specific, do you think you might visit her in post op? Think you will be able to keep your boundaries if and when you do?  :)o you think you will be able to validate the huge pile of feelings she will have?  

It WOULD be safer to stay in the woods. But as you say, "do you just sit here and wait for her to make a move months from now?"

[Mike_confused]

I would like to visit her.  I have no problem maintaining my boundaries - a skill which has brought me countless verbal attacks from her.  My problem always was that I argued my point - something I am skilled at, but is useless against her emotional reasoning.  I do not think I will wait forever until she issue an edict.   I also doubt I would have a separation agreement; rather, it would be straight to a divorce proceeding.  We have little common property and no children together.

I am at the point where I will make no further effort until and unless she shows some level of awareness of her real issues and their impact on me/us.

[MaryJane3]

This is such a helpful thread, thank you to everyone who is posting here.  I have been separated from my uBPDh since Thanksgiving and it has been such a rollercoaster ride.  It is definitely good to have a place of peace and safety away from him but I still get pulled into the chaos of his different schemas, he is cycling through all of them faster than ever.  There is so much push/pull going on its hard to keep up.  I go from angel to devil in the snap of the fingers. 

Mike_confused I can identify with you so much and feel your pain and frustration.  It is so hard to care for someone who is so controlled by a disorder that is very difficult to live with.  I know I won't go back unless he recognizes what he is suffering from and begins and commits to serious long term treatment.  I wish I could just change my thought processes and behaviors to be able to live with him even if he doesn't get help but I have my children to think about and their wellbeing and my wellbeing as well.  To take care of him and his disorder means giving up huge chunks of myself, my dreams and hopes, it is just not worth it unless he is willing to do something to get better.

I am sitting here wanting to be patient but afraid my only choice will be to end it permanently.  He is ranting and raving about divorce now because I haven't given in to his demands for immediate reconciliation so I can serve his every waking want and need. 

I was wondering, have you guys seen a pattern, even when in healthy adult schema that they use constant complaints of illness, aches, pains, headaches, heart trouble and so forth to get attention?  I can't recall a day in my 6 years with my uBPDh that he didn't have a physical complaint or ailment and expected me to dote on him and serve him like a sick child needing care and attention.

[Mike_confused]

MaryJane,

Oh my God... .  my wife... .  my uBPD wife has not felt well in 5 years.   She is constantly constantly ill.  Fibromyalgia, severe migranes, had her gall bladder out... .  disk problems in her neck and now headed for back surgery to fuse 2 disks in he low back.  I feel for her tremendously, love her and want to make her better, but I can't.   I have given her massages every night for an hour for 4 years (I have aches too).  She uses poor health as a control.  I don't care she tells me, I abandoned her because I missed a doctor's appointment of her's (while at a meeting out of town so that I can earn a living to take care of her and her children, as well as mine).

She claims that by missing the appointment I let her down when she needed me the most.  I get that but she is a big girl - we all need to do what is necessary, in theory.

I have been separated from her a month as of yesterday (not legally, just at my family home in the deep woods).  Limited contact, mostly texts.  You have read the long string above I assume.

I guess what I am saying is that health appears to be a big weapon in the BPD arsenal.  To look at my wife you would not think she is ill - slim trim and tone.  She goes to a gym regularly.  I do believe that if you go to enough doctors you can find one that will tell you what you want to hear.  She has had at least two MD appointments every week for the three years of our marriage (I have fantastic health insurance).

Does any of this match what you are experiencing?

[Mike_confused]

Mary Jane,

to your other statement:  I want to be with her, but I am not willing to totally give up my lifestyle and my dreams.  I will reconcile IF she shows an awareness of her BPD and takes steps to get better.  Like you, I fear that my only choice ultimately will be to end the marriage and walk away from her.

She promised me many things and has forgotten all of them.

Mike

[Mike_confused]

one more thing MaryJane,

her constant, continual, chronic and never ending complaints of ill health have required me to tend to her like a sick child.   She has switched primary care doctor's several times until she found one that would cater to her.  This MD put he on cymbalta SUPPOSEDLY for her fibromyalgia... .  it made her CRAZIER than ever before, if that is possible.

She subsequently had a falling out with this MD, as if the MD was a friend, not a professional (there you go with no boundaries again).



Mike

[fakename]

mike_confused... .  

wow. we have some similarities... .  

my ex with BPD (i think) also has fibromyalgia... .  

i broke up with her feb 4th... .  no contact since, except for an email from her the day after of i guess her breaking up with me? haha, i dont know... .  you can read what i posted about her so far on here if you like:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=194877.msg12205256#msg12205256


anyway, the massages! oh my god, i would give my ex endless massages too cause she said she was in pain. even waking up early to give them even though i was so tired... a lot of times i would wish she would at least try to give me some sort of massage sometime... .  but it was really all just take and no give... .  i also think she uses her health as a means of control...

i remember when i had to give up my weekend to take care of her so she could get lasik eye surgery, and soon after that weekend, she broke up with me, to go back to her ex... i always felt that whenever she did something for herself or made some improvement, she would go out and try to make things work with someone else... she never really did put in as much effort with me as she did with others... .  

my ex also is like yours, slim, trim and tone... .  exercises daily, but will blame her flare-ups on me, will use her feelings of fatigue to control me, or to skip our plans to do whatever she wants... .  

even when i joined a fibro community support group on webmd, to try to udnerstand what she goes through and try to ake her feel like she's not alone with the community there, she never made any attempts to go on there, i would have to do everything, i would even post thigns for her and then read all the responses to her... .  

my ex is also on cymbalta, and she would say it decreases her libido. she uses sex as a tool i've learned... .  

the falling out you mentioned with her MD, my ex had something similar with her boss... .  he suddenly stopped giving her the attention he used to, and then she would complain about that and it would really affect her and she would say she's just gonna give him the cold shoulder if he ever tried talking to her or something... .  if i tried to tell her its a professional relationship and tried to comfort her or give her advice on it, she would just yell at me... .  (as an aside, i know she didnt have any romantic relationship with her boss, at least i'm 95% sure)... .  

anyway, just wanted to write cause we had that fibro commonality... .  

[fakename]

also, i'm curious, as soon into a relationship do these BPD people start playing the victim and talk about how all their ex's treated them terribly, or if they have health issues like fibro or just try to lure people in to be the hero?

[Mike_confused]

As soon as I started dating my now wife (uBPD) she told me the horror stories of how she was treated in the past.   The hypochondria, or whatever it is, built up over time but did not fully materialize until right after we were married.

[tuum est61]

Yes, many pwBPD have an ongoing set of ills that are in constant need of attention.

Some of us "nons" get drawn into the "parental"l role of looking after our sick "child.". Some of us figure out that we can step back and for some inexplicable reason, a lot of the symptoms will disappear. It's hard though.

I do a lot of validating about my W's headaches, irritable bowel,  tiredness, even "feeling fat" - but less actual "action." Ending the constant catering didnt affect our intimacy in any significant way (although my W has always struggled with intimacy)  didn't make things any worse.

It's hard to accept that as much as our pwBPD "wants" this from us, they don't "need" it and in fact if we trip over ourselves to respond they actually respect us less. I still do a lot for my W - but there's a lot I don't do anymore.

Mike - you've been gone a month - no every evening massages for your W - she seems to have survived, eh? If you do go for a re-engage, watch for some boundaries around what you "do" and validate the heck out of it.  

[Mike_confused]

All:

I am not sure if my uBPD wife and I will reunite/reconcile.   If we do there certainly will be expectations on my part.  As for the illnesses, and just off the top of my head, I can name fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome, migranes, ovarian cysts, gall bladder surgery, 2 years of physical therapy for various aches and pains, upper neck disk problems, lowed back disk problems (HAVING FUSION SURGERY NEXT WEEK), water on the knee, etc.

She has 6 MRI's I can recall and has been tested for Lyme Disease, rheumatoid arthritis, lupis, all of which she self diagnosed.   She had none.   She is the picture of health.  I am not condemning regular physical exams, but she is beyond exhausting with this... .  it reached the point where its was the only thing she wanted to talk to me about.