do I say something now and if so, what?

[patientandclear]

Y'all probably feel I've asked this same question several times, but I'm in the 11th hour before my uBPDexbf leaves town, and we are having dinner tomorrow night.  I'm trying to sort out my emotions & sort out what, if anything, I should say to him at this moment.  I guess the key question is -- do I tell him I love him?  That I would like to try again?

He emailed yesterday saying he'd decided he is not going to move away after all.  He's going to travel for a while, then return here.  Until I read that, I was experiencing the same physical shock feelings I experienced when he first broke up with me (and for months afterwards) -- feeling like there was a vise around my heart, waking up at exactly the same time, early, every morning, regardless of when I went to sleep or how tired I was; physically shutting down (losing consciousness) when certain thoughts passed through my mind, about losing him.  The attachment I feel to this man is clearly operating on a pretty primal level.  After doing a lot of reading, I think the way he came into my life, appeared to see and understand and love me completely, and then left so suddenly and inexplicably, I am dealing with the loss of a primary attachment much like a kid who loses her parent -- still very traumatic.  I have an incredible impulse to try to regain what we had, even though I realize consciously it wouldn't be like it was before.

I don't quite know what's going on for him, about us.  I seem to be very important to him.  He shows me that in lots of ways, and we've made progress dealing with various only-partly-articulated feelings he seems to experience that closeness with me will envelope him, that I am trying to change him, that if he cares too much I will leave him.  But not enormous progress, and this is not something we've talked much about explicitly.

Though this could be mostly classic BPD idealization, he always spoke of me as his great love, even after he ended the relationship initially.  Many times he said he didn't know why he felt he could not turn away from the  "inward spiral it seems I must follow, even in the face of the most amazing love I've known."  He wanted to try again a few months after the breakup; I was wiliing, if he would work on why he'd panicked and bolted in therapy; but either he then had cold feet, or his therapist (as he said at the time) insisted he not plunge back into a r/s with me, because he would hurt me again (which he said he couldn't do) and he needed to address his fear of being alone.  I supported that, we stayed in touch, then he immediately started up another r/s, which felt like such a betrayal I withdrew into NC for 10 months.  That ended quickly & he is now quite dedicated to being along, it seems, with me as his sort of check-in person.

We clearly do have something unusual in his life -- I think I am the only ex-gf he's close to, and we have pushed through hard things and made repairs and continue to share intimately with each other.  In other words at this point I think we have something valuable as is, and there is a reality to our r/s that was absent when we were newly in love.

About a month after we reconnected last fall, he suddenly got very distant (just after we'd had a wonderful, intense, emotionally intimate day together).  The distance lasted two weeks, and then he emailed very abruptly, similar to how he communicated when he broke up with me, that he was happy to be my friend, not a friend-maybe-leading-to-something-else.  This was so odd and out of the blue -- it felt like rejection at first (like, I already got that memo, thanks!), but I think that is just my rejection sensitivity with him.  In fact I hadn't remotely suggested that we be other than friends.  I think his declaration about this was mostly to police his own boundaries.  He is working hard (though seemingly without therapy or DBT training) on defining a "self" independent of relationships with other people.  He's talked a lot about that with me -- he feels all his life he's lost himself in relationships (always short-lived except one long very volatile r/s in which he also says he lost his self).  I think at this juncture he is adamant that he doesn't want a r/s to intrude into his process of self-definition, and of course I completely support that.  Nor would any r/s I would want to be a part of be in tension with him being himself, but I know it is virtually impossible for him to trust that.

He is a victim of extensive emotional, physical and sexual abuse as a kid, and his parents, when not perpetrating, virtually abandoned him.  I think his basic deal is that he has sought love, it has gone poorly because of abandonment/engulfment panics, ours was maybe the most spectacular failure & he still can't fully explain why his feelings went so crazy about us; and at this point, he is terrified of entering another r/s, let alone with me.  Yet, he wants to be very close to me, and in some ways, I am his "person," especially as I have proven I can let him have necessary space, am willing to deal with his negative emotional reactions to things with us, am willing to change my own approach, etc.

The bottom line is I really love him, he wants and fears love, I enjoy him, he enjoys me, we have a history that is both painful and encouraging, and he is now planning to come back here.  I have been scrupulous about not challenging in any way the boundary between friendship & romance with him, and I don't want him to think I have had a secret agenda of being his girlfriend all along, because this has been much more than that.  At the same time, I've been open with him that my feelings haven't changed, that I would go further with him if he were in a place where that were possible, that I will miss him when he goes and that his leaving indefinitely made me really sad.  I think he knows, at some level, my feelings.  On the other hand we never actually discuss this.  Even my email to him after he said he wanted to be friends only -- in which I said OK but what prompted this need for clarification? -- he didn't answer.  Said later he had an answer in his drafts folder that he thought he'd sent.  Because I didn't hear from him I waited almost two weeks to send one last "hey, we can do this" email, to which he responded so gratefully -- but he's still never answered my question about what went wonky for him leading up to that.

He is heading off into the world for who knows how long, but says he is returning.  I'm sure he will stay in touch.  My question is -- should I say I love him?  Or let my actions continue to show that?  Let him, if he ever can, raise the issue when and if he gets to a point of being willing to risk being that intimate with someone again?  He seems to respond well when I take the initiative, but on this one, I don't know -- it seems like it may feel to him like a major boundary violation.  On the other hand, don't we all want to know we are loved as we move about the world -- isn't it important sometimes to be brave and speak up?

Of course, complicating this, I am not trying to say we should be in a r/s now.  He still has processing to do, clearly, and I've always said I cannot be partners with someone who pulls away every few days when we are especially close.  And he is still that person.  I would be more saying--this is my deep feeling for you.  Take it with you & know that I feel this for  you.

Thanks so much for your guidance ... .  

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[laelle]

Sweet, dearest Patient.

Might want to try some SET here.

Wow, you must be so excited.  Tomorrow is the big day. What a great opportunity for you to get to travel, I can understand you wanting to see the (states, world, cities),  not many people get a chance at doing that.  You know I love ya like crazy and will miss you dearly. While I am excited for you, I am also sad because I love the time we spend together.  I will truly miss that. You are a great person, and I love you very much. Keep in touch please, you know me, ill worry, and when you come back around, would love to get another opportunity to spend time with you.  

Any perceived rejection in his response, dont react or respond negatively. You are going to be overly sensitive at this moment, and you may just not be happy with anything he says other than your deepest hope of... .  I cant go because im in love with you.  Any emotional response, accept it, its nice to be loved.  You are a great person and deserve to be loved.  Then let it go.

You mentioned through that entire post about what he wants and how he is.  Its not about him, its about you!  You ruminate alot on that fantasy relationship you use to have hun, but it wasnt real.  The reality is what can be sustained.  I would take sustainable reality over a dream that keeps getting crushed any day of the week.

Let go of the past, and continue working on that sustainable present.  Could lead to a happy future.  

[heartandwhole]

P&C,

How about being true, true, true to you tomorrow?  Maybe you could do and say what is in your heart and let the chips fall where they may?  I see you doing the acrobatic thing with your pwBPD, and believe me, I know sometimes it's necessary and I am very adept at it myself, but I'm just suggesting that for once you put YOU first.  I know you'll do it with love.  You can't mess this up. You have no control over him or his feelings or his departure or his coming back.  None.  Right?  

I see myself so much in what you write about this situation, and my heart goes out to you.  My pwBPD also said he was leaving to travel the world, right when we were falling deeply in love - I was floored.  I told him I was happy for him but also crushed, because I would miss him.  He was surprised at my feeling - he didn't get it at first that I would be hurt    He seemed to understand after the fact and really empathized with me and validated my feeling.  He changed his mind about leaving (surprise) and warned me about how changeable he was with regard to plans.  He made sure to tell me that he wasn't changeable when it came to people he loved deeply (that was me)... .  but that didn't turn out to be true and well, you know the rest of the story.

I know this has been really challenging for you and we all support you and want the best for YOU (and your friend, too).  If you are as compassionate, caring and loving to "little P&C" as you are with your pwBPD, I think both of you will feel good.

Good luck and let us know what happens!  

P.S. Do you like Bonnie Raitt?  You could always send him this:

www.youtu.be/Vtwi-b9hTP4

[rosannadanna]

P & C,

My two cents:

I originally recommended that you not share your feelings with him b/c I thought it would be a lose/lose for you and a win/win for him and I didn't want to see you hurt.

But, now that he has backpedaled and said that he will indeed be coming back, I now worry that you will wait for him to come back and not live your life while he is out living his life.

I think about being in your shoes and it must be hella painful if you love your dude like I love mine.  I detached from the old relationship but still had love for him when I re-engaged.  Before re-engagement, I imagine as many possible outcomes as possible, good and bad.  If he was still painting me black, but in a subtle, condescending, passive-aggressive way (he's done that before and I allowed it  I was going to assess and get the heck out of there.  If he was seeing someone else exclusively, I would also walk.  I found that he was emotionally regulated, so, whew, I could proceed.  But I was prepared to walk; I had no expectation of outcome so I couldn't be disappointed.

Ok, getting back to you.  If I was in your shoes, I would rip the band-aid off and just do the dramatic, romantic movie ending expression of your feelings. Imagine his neutral politeness; or a sweet, thinly veiled condescending response; or flat-out rejection, or a confusing, cryptic response, or whatever!  No matter how much his response might hurt, you will survive this.  In fact I am recommending this to you b/c I think seeing his response will help you detach even more while he gone and truly get on with your life.

I asked you this in another post.  Why are you more comfortable being preoccupied with someone who is unavailable than with yourself?

No matter what you decide to do, sending love and hugs your way  

[laelle]

Speak your truth Patient, but remember its his life too.  I am all for you being honest with how you feel, but I think you should keep it in proportion with the fact that it might be difficult for those feelings to be dealt with on the last nite before he goes away for a while.  For both of you.

There is always time.  Maybe he needs this time to figure himself out.

[myself]

Hi. Be yourself! You feel you love him. You want to share your life with him. Express it. For: You (and him). It doesn't have to be in a shouting from the mountaintops way. Yes, you'd like him to say it back to you, mean it, and follow through. He might not be able to, as you well know. Make sure you don't also become someone with a problem being close, though. At certain points, over analyzing, and asking others who and how you should be, gets in the way of being who you really are. It may or may not work out with this man, as friends or lovers, but it can turn out better for yourself if your heartfelt honesty helps sweep away those eggshells. Whether he's coming back or not, he's here right now. Be yourself with him. That really is the answer you've been looking for. 

[OTH]

You two are dancing again.

I've always said I cannot be partners with someone who pulls away every few days when we are especially close.

What does this mean? Does he have to promise you he is serious? Not make plans to move away for awhile? What do you hope to get from him that will make your heart feel safe? That is what it boils down to right? You just don't feel safe telling him how you really feel. Why?

[almost789]

Are you being true to you? You mentioned when this first "friendship" started, it was NOT romantic and you would remain neutral. Now you say you "love" him. When there is love involved certainly there is romance involved. Is it really possible to turn off those romantic feelings? Not usually. I don't think you are being true to you. You are asking, what should I do, what should I say, so as to hope for the perfect outcome for the two of you. But what about you? If you have to constantly ask others how to be and what to do and say it seems you are denying you. Shouldn't you be more focused on finding you and what makes you happy? Does he make you happy? Are you willing to give up your happiness for him? I agree with the other posters. Why are you preoccupied with someone who is not available? Couldnt' you better be spending your time finding someone who is available, who can love you the way you deserve? I'm not being critical here, I was in the same boat as you for a very long time. I don't think telling him you love him will help anything. He most probably knows your feelings for him as you've stayted "with" him despite all his behaviors. He says your "niave" You mentioned this once. He thinks your niave because you love him. They don't think they deserve your love and furthermore if you profess your love for them they begin to wonder what is wrong with you, that you could love someone who is so clearly not available to you.

[rosannadanna]

But I was prepared to walk; I had no expectation of outcome so I couldn't be disappointed.

I said this in my earlier post.  I want to ammend it a little b/c it is not entirely true.  The truth is that I had my boundaries set and I knew I would stick to them and if I needed to walk, I would.  But I really would have been disappointed and sad.  But would it have been a set back?  I don't think so.  I had done alot of work on myself and it would have just been a step in my journey in self-discovery.  It would have taught me that I can prepare myself for bad feelings, but I cannot and should not avoid them.  By being honest, it shows that you are being vulnerable, and that is empowering.  Feeling our bad feelings and not avoiding them is very hard, but also incredibly enpowering b/c it is an accomplishment in and of itself.  But it is also so enlightening we really start to see how amazing we really are.

Just remember you are amazing!

[patientandclear]

Myself -- good, clear guidance as always.  The problem is there are various versions of myself -- the bold one, the scared one, the cautious one, the one who wants to honor the boundaries we've stated, the one who realizes life is short and failing to tell people we loved them is often a mistake.  It's not so easy to find my core values -- these are all my values, if that makes sense.

Laelle -- your point that there is plenty of time, that what we are doing presently is valuable and real, that he is free, as am I ... .  these are all super helpful reminders.  Your instincts about all of this are so good.  You help me to remember that what is going on now is good, not bad, and I need to look forward, not back.  Thank you!

Heartandwhole -- the more you say about your situation, the more painfully it reminds me of mine, yes.  Thank you so much for sharing the details, it really helps me recognize the patterns and take it all less personally.  And in the end your point that I have no control over what he does or feels, I have control over what I do, is what is guiding me.

Rosanna & SummerT321 -- you asked why I am preoccupied with someone who is unavailable, rather than myself.  Maybe this is something I need to correct, but I don't get that dichotomy.  Our relationship ended sadly and suddenly, with him saying he didn't really understand why.  If it's possible to repair and heal, I'd like to.  That means paying attention to how he thinks and feels, as well as to my own boundaries and requirements. But paying attention to him isn't just for him, if that makes sense -- it's also for me, so that what we do together is healthy and happy, not sad and destructive.  In other words, I am caring about him, in part, for myself.

I am not waiting for him, if that makes sense.  I am living fully in what does exist between us; with someone with these emotional challenges, that is complicated.  But I am trying to do my best with what we've got here. That's why I had 10 months of NC and came back into his life as a friend -- because that was available.  The fact is that the months since have shown empirically that there is much of value here.  I've been open to dating and I have dated during this time.  The fact is that others I've met do not enrich my life as he does.  That may change and if it does, I'm open.  But I don't understand throwing away something difficult but also good, in favor of an imaginary other who doesn't exist (yet), either.

Rosanna -- I SO appreciate that last post!  That's exactly what I'm thinking now, after all this deliberation.  To risk and be vulnerable is empowering.  It's up to him what he does with it.  I know him well enough to know that he will find it difficult to process and yet ultimately I think it will be good that I was less constrained and careful, and more honest.  In any event, I won't feel bad about it.

You two are dancing again.

I've always said I cannot be partners with someone who pulls away every few days when we are especially close.

What does this mean? Does he have to promise you he is serious? Not make plans to move away for awhile? What do you hope to get from him that will make your heart feel safe? That is what it boils down to right? You just don't feel safe telling him how you really feel. Why?

What I mean by this is that I am not asking him to be my partner, now.  I've been in the same place since we explored whether to get back together 18 months ago: if he has insight into why things fell apart, and into how to avoid leaving completely when he feels badly; and if he is in a place where he wants to be in a relationship (he's not right now), I would do that with him.  Otherwise, I respect where he is and will be his friend.

I am uncertain whether to tell him what I feel now because I worry it will scare him.  The love between us is currently unspoken.  I say things like I will miss you and it makes me sad that you're going; he doesn't even use such words (an enormous change from when we were first together, not that that will surprise anyone here).  He shows me he cares by what he does--and that is not a bad thing of course.  But.  He has also expressed that common feeling with pwBPD that I may have a secret agenda, pretending to be his friend and actually wanting something else.  This resonates with his sexual abuse in his childhood by a trusted adult, and is, I understand, so common with pwBPD who do not believe you would really want or love them just for themselves.  As Laelle wrote, what we've built in our current reality, without "love" words, is better and stronger than what was going on initially when we were "in love," so I don't want to do anything to shake his confidence that I meant what I said, that I would respect the currently necessary boundaries.

All that said ... .  I think I've decided that I will say something but in a way that I hope reassures him I am not threatening his autonomy. I will do my best!  And will report back.

Thanks so much for helping me process this situation, everyone.  I am the sort of person who needs to agonize up front so that I don't have regrets afterword.  Many people have said that it's telling that I can't figure out instinctively what to do, but the problem is that with BPD, instincts can be quite damaging.  In the end, I think I've decided that my instincts here are not damaging, as long as they come surrounded with other affirmations that what he is doing is OK and that I am OK with him being who he is.  I can do that.

[almost789]

Perhaps that person doesnt exist now and im sure while focusing on him other doors are being closed which could otherwise be opened to explore what does exist. Im sure this is true for me no doubt Ive probably lost other opportunities this past 2 years ive been focused on him. Wouldnt it be nice to have someone to love and who loves you the way you are regardless of what you may or may not say. It seems to me the mere fact that you dont know what to say for fear of rubbing him the wrong way is denying yourself in a walking on egg shells type of way.

[coworkerfriend]

No advise from me, P&C - just   for you.

[rosannadanna]

Regret:  sorrow aroused by circumstances beyond one's control or power to repair

You can't avoid regret, according to the formal definition above.

Looking forward to hearing how it goes  

[laelle]

Good luck P&C, the future is not yet written and it doesnt have to be written in panic.  It can take its time.  Life is a beautiful gift.  You are a lovely person, whether with this guy, another, or none at all.  Remember he has planned this for a while and while it brings sadness for you, it is something he is looking forward to for him.  Tell your truth P&C, not your analysis of it.    Your so cute.   

[elemental]

Laelle happy to see you back 


Patient, all I can say is hugs to you. I couldn't bear the tension of what you are managing. You seem so immersed and saturated in it. I myself would quietly disappear at this point. I am near to that in my own situation, so probably it's just me.


What does he mean by traveling for a "while"? How long is a while...

[Phoenix.Rising]

Hi P&C,

If you love him, tell him.  But how do you define this love?  Platonic?  Romantic?  If you are honest with yourself about his illness, you realize that he cannot return the type of love you have for him without some long-term work on himself, and maybe not even then. 

Another important piece in this to me:  If you tell him you love him, show him.  In other words, don't talk the talk and then not walk the walk.  PwBPD do not trust us on a deep level.  They do not trust love.  Do you think a romantic relationship would be the loving thing to engage in with him if he doesn't have treatment?

I've been thinking that engaging in a sexual relationship with a pwBPD who was sexually abused as a child only causes them more harm, even if they are willing participants.  I believe in a lot of cases, this creates a re-enactment of their initial trauma, whether they (and you) are aware of it or not.  I don't see how this is helpful or loving even if it is intended it to be.   

However, a loving friendship (which you've been doing) makes sense to me, but if you are fantasizing about a romantic relationship with him in the future, I only see that causing pain for both parties unless some serious therapeutic work is undertaken.  Best of luck to you! 

[laelle]

Hey Ele     Alive and kicking. Its good to be back. Hope your doing ok.  PM me and fill me in.

[seeking balance]

Radical Acceptance

I recently reread Road Less Traveled and this situation could read from the book when talking about emotional maturity and balance.

Mature people accept pain is a natural consequence for living a balanced life.  The example in the book, think about riding a bike - it is a super high going down the hill with no breaks!  There is a corner, and you wipe out getting hurt.  If you don't want to get hurt, next time slow down going down the hill, realize there is a corner that hurts when you go too fast around and wipe out.  Is it as fun?  well, no.

P&C, I have not seen you try the tools on some of your other threads, so I don't know exactly which part is the corner for you.  Is the corner professing your love or is the corner your own inability to radically accept and fit your expectations accordingly.

Loving him = ? (what is it that you want?)

A whole other component is that I have been reading on the various boards that you have accepted who he is and you have accepted you do not want a romantic relationship with him.  OTH posted about this earlier in the thread.  Is it possible his leaving is simply pushing your own abandonment fears?  Most of us have them - there are workshops even on BPD and lonely child relationships.

Tell him or not - either way there is pain... .  which aligns most with who you are?  Your core?

[patientandclear]

So, faithful readers, I thought I should report back to you.

I, again, so appreciate the latest comments.  Laelle, your point about "the future is not yet written and it doesn't have to be written in panic, it can take its time" had a big impact on me.  Phoenix Rising, yours about "if you love him, show him (more than tell him)" did also.  And even though I went to dinner planning to say something "big," in the end, it felt wrong to do it.  We had a lovely time.  He asked me if he could send me small things from the road to keep while he is away (still unclear how long that might be, but at least, many months); he gave me a gift inscribed with thanks for my help and support.  All was good.  And I realized this is no small thing.

I also realized I was going to be putting him in a position where he was bringing a lot to the table, and I would then be sort of trumping him with a declaration of my feelings that would be very hard for him to respond to gracefully or without panicking.

So I didn't make my big announcement.  Instead we said a sweet and awkward goodbye, as if he's going to be here next week for our next conversation.

I'm thinking now I may write and say what I meant to say tonight, which I still think is something he would like to know, but maybe in a time and place when he can just process it quietly, and when I can be more sure of how I am expressing myself.

SummerT321, your point about my connection to this man making me less open to happiness in other forms ... .  I don't feel that way.  That would be more of any issue, I think, if I had not learned about BPD.  I do accept that he likely cannot be with me in a romantic r/s on terms that are viable for me, at least, not presently.  And that means that if I were to meet someone I found compelling, I would absolutely pursue that.

But I also want to be true to the genuine feelings between me and my ex.  And while he is not in a place to reciprocate now, and may never be, I don't want him to go through life wondering if anyone will ever really love him, and I don't want to bury my own feelings out of fear or frustration.  The dialectically complicated truth is that I love him AND at some level I think he loves me AND he is mortally fearful of closeness for excellent reasons AND he has little apparent insight about that AND he nonetheless has proven to be fairly brave about exploring intimate connection with me after our sad breakup, pushing himself to explain himself to me in ways that are hard for him AND he is leaving AND he seems to want to remain closely connected AND he makes me happy once I've assimilated that he engages in distancing but will come back AND we share a lot and push each other AND he shows he appreciates me and is emotionally reciprocal most of the time AND he makes impulsive sudden decisions AND I have no idea when I'm going to see him again ... .  

SB, your questions are making me think carefully.  I THINK I do, truly, accept where he is right now.  I do, however, have some hope for the future, either that he will continue to grow in ways that someday make a romantic r/s possible, or that knowing I love him will in some way be comforting.  He shared with me this fall his questions about whether love is possible.  I guess I want him to know that from my side, it is possible to love him as he is.  That just seems good in itself, no matter what he makes of it.  :)oes that make any sense?

Thanks so much, again, for all the solidarity & insight.

[almost789]

Hi patient, I totally understand and I told mine I love him too. Ive never denied it, always told him this. He told me as well, even after we broke up. But, it didnt help make us stay together. Its such a sadnsick disorder that what they want the most they cant have. From their perspective, Its like seeing something from afar that you so desperately want and need but at the same time you would have to walk through a house of flames to get it. This is how much emotional pain it causes to them to get close. I also read somewhere that trying to save a BPD person with love was like trying to save a drowning victim by adding more water to the pool.

In my case I do feel as though ive been far too proccupied with him that I cant recognize other  opportunities for happiness for me.

[laelle]

Well said P&C...   You know exactly what your doing.  I know its hard to be separated from someone you care about first hand, but it does get easier.  I actually enjoy my relationship this way for the moment.  Can deal when I want and easily detach when I need to.  We talk about more in the future, and when it feels right and our planets align or something, it will happen    He is lucky to have you.

Nothing wrong with telling him that you love him in a kind email.  Sadly, dont count on validation, but you never know. 

Feel good that at least you told your Truth.  Being truthful to yourself is never wrong.