Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

It's been common theme here over the years -  particularly from the men - that the ex's are "crazy hot" (a description I just read in another thread.)  If I've read this once, I've read it a thousand times - in some, way, shape, or form. 

We women have that same attraction, but it seems to be more of an emotional attachment.  The women here rarely go on and on about how "hot," their ex is.  We might talk about a physical attractiveness, but it isn't mentioned constantly - over and over and over again.

The attraction we have to our exes -- whether physical, emotional or otherwise is very strong, but really... .  what's with the "hot" description?  I really do want to understand. This description has been used about me by some of the men in my life -- it always feels uncomfortable to me. It really just feels demeaning and very shallow to me. I would much rather someone describe the qualities of my character, than use such a shallow description of me.  It makes me feel that they think I have no substance and that I'm being judged solely on the way I look.  And isn't it true that no one is "hot" to everyone?  One person's version of "hot" can be another person's version of "gross!"

I see many beautiful people in my line of work. Some of them are the ugliest creatures on the planet.

Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder.  I've seen pics of some of the people here that are referred to as "hot."  I'm not saying they aren't attractive, but "hot?"  I don't know.  Maybe I just don't get what "hot" means.  All I know is that it has an extremely negative connotation to me and I bristle every time I read it.

Am I just way off base?

turtle

[turtle]

It's been common theme here over the years -  particularly from the men - that the ex's are "crazy hot" (a description I just read in another thread.)  If I've read this once, I've read it a thousand times - in some, way, shape, or form. 

We women have that same attraction, but it seems to be more of an emotional attachment.  The women here rarely go on and on about how "hot," their ex is.  We might talk about a physical attractiveness, but it isn't mentioned constantly - over and over and over again.

The attraction we have to our exes -- whether physical, emotional or otherwise is very strong, but really... .  what's with the "hot" description?  I really do want to understand. This description has been used about me by some of the men in my life -- it always feels uncomfortable to me. It really just feels demeaning and very shallow to me. I would much rather someone describe the qualities of my character, than use such a shallow description of me.  It makes me feel that they think I have no substance and that I'm being judged solely on the way I look.  And isn't it true that no one is "hot" to everyone?  One person's version of "hot" can be another person's version of "gross!"

I see many beautiful people in my line of work. Some of them are the ugliest creatures on the planet.

Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder.  I've seen pics of some of the people here that are referred to as "hot."  I'm not saying they aren't attractive, but "hot?"  I don't know.  Maybe I just don't get what "hot" means.  All I know is that it has an extremely negative connotation to me and I bristle every time I read it.

Am I just way off base?

turtle

[trevjim]

You make a great point turtle, but there is a science in why men are more focused on attraction then women. (apparently if scientists are to be believed)

The way it apparently goes is that it derives from our caveman instincts. The males look for a female that will be a healthy mother to their offspring, ie big hips, curves in the right places, healthy looking etc.

The women look for someone who will be dominant and will care for them and keep them safe, a macho confidant leader of the pack so to speak.

Now I don't know how true this is, its just something I've read on more than one occasion.

I am the guy that said 'crazy hot' , I think that maybe goes back to my self esteem issues. I've never been overly blessed with female attention, so when my 'crazy hot' ex came into my life, I couldn't believe my luck. You are right that, looks are great and that, but it is inner beauty that counts, and among the many things I've learnt from that R/S, its that inner beauty really is beautiful and it has changed my outlook on life

Edit. The reason I say hot is probably a force of habit, my BPDex used to say to me she didn't like being called beautiful and pretty, she wanted to be 'hot' and sexy. So I hot used to calling her hot. I apologize if it offends you, it wad not my intention

[trouble11]

I know what you mean Turtle and no you are not at ALL off base.  I too have been referred to as "hot" or a MILF.  The first several times I didn't even know what that was.  I consider myself cute at best and that's on a good day.     I find all the crazy hot references kinda unnerving.  Maybe because that's how my BPD referred to his girlfriend before me.  When I saw her see was no better looking than me or anyone else for that matter.  Not ugly, not gorgeous, and definitely not "hot".   I know the ex had to think this to make himself feel better about himself.  I kinda get that from him ... .  but not sure what to think when we hear it here.    

In all fairness ... .  I do remember thinking in the beginning that my exBPDbf was good looking.  I don't any more ... .  once the me washed off it was kinda like looking at a mud fence.  Fortunately for him ... .  he's a cop and therefore gets to date way above his looks scale.  Guess the uniform hides a whole lot of ugly, but eventually it seeps out of the seams.  

Anyway ... .  I hope we hear from the guys here.  

[jdcthunder14]

Just another word for attractive.

Men are visual, but I think you diminish woman’s ability to do this too. Put up a hunky guy on yours or anyone else’s facebook page and see the reaction that the woman post. Physical attraction matters, period. There are several billion years of evolution at play in this attraction. As trevjim posted, at its heart is the biology of reproduction. Of course our complex human society does not allow for caveman tactics in picking a mate.

There really is no science behind the comments we see on here. You know full well that a very small % of people actually comment than just read so that biases the conclusions immediately. Also most of us on here, especially in the beginning when things are most raw are searching for some sense to it all and will grasp at anything that sounds like our story.

Just a hypothesis and certainly nothing conclusive but my sense is that a “hot” person with BPD can and should be more successful at “playing the BPD game” than a more ordinary person. I know mine was… since she was very attractive (not just my opinion) she had no trouble at all moving onto the next guy. We will not get any real sense of whether that is true or not from this website though because of what I mentioned above.

[trevjim]

Just a hypothesis and certainly nothing conclusive but my sense is that a “hot” person with BPD can and should be more successful at “playing the BPD game” than a more ordinary person. I know mine was… since she was very attractive (not just my opinion) she had no trouble at all moving onto the next guy. We will not get any real sense of whether that is true or not from this website though because of what I mentioned above.

Absolutely, my ex was 'hot' not just my opinion, way out my league in terms of looks, and each time we argued and I left even just for a day,she would sleep around because she could. I think this made her BPD worse as attention and sex was so easy to come by. Think of a heroin addict trying to get sober, if heroin wasnt around, they would stand no choice but to try and get better, but if they could just go to the first guy they see and ask for some, its going to be a lot easier to use again (not a great metaphore ) and of course I would be pissed of at her antics and then we would argue and her BPD behaviors would be worse. She also would and probably has got into a relationship with the first guy who came along now as she is 'hot' and easily attracted him.

Also as a certain miss Monroe demonstrated, being 'hot' is one things, but being a hot woman that is in need of rescuing (BPD behavior) it really plays on a male's attraction

[turtle]

Edit. The reason I say hot is probably a force of habit, my BPDex used to say to me she didn't like being called beautiful and pretty, she wanted to be 'hot' and sexy. So I hot used to calling her hot. I apologize if it offends you, it wad not my intention

I'm not offended. Not at all.  I just want to understand. Over the years, there have been many discussions here about the use of the word "hot."  Some of them were very heated - .  

Maybe it's just my own frame of reference about the reference of "hot."  I'm sure that's part of it.  To me... .  the word "hot" implies bimbo, mindless, and slutty.  So, of course, the fact that your ex wanted to be described as "hot" and "sexy" feels extremely negative to me.  

IIn all fairness ... .  I do remember thinking in the beginning that my exBPDbf was good looking.  I don't any more ... .  once the me washed off it was kinda like looking at a mud fence.  Fortunately for him ... .  he's a cop and therefore gets to date way above his looks scale.  Guess the uniform hides a whole lot of ugly, but eventually it seeps out of the seams.  

And this is a prime example of what I'm talking about here.  You remember thinking he was "good looking."  That feels more than reasonable to me.  .  No where are you going on and on about how "hot" he was.

Just another word for attractive.

Really?  Am I really that off base here?  If so... .  please tell me.  When you --- jdcthunder14 --- read the word "hot" over and over and over again, does it really just mean "attractive" to you?

Men are visual, but I think you diminish woman’s ability to do this too. Put up a hunky guy on yours or anyone else’s facebook page and see the reaction that the woman post.

I agree that men are visual.  They make that very clear - .  

Again, maybe it's just me, but a) I would never post a picture of a hunky guy on my f/b page, and b) I would never comment on a post with a pic of a hunky guy.

Physical attraction matters, period.

I absolutely agree with this!  It DOES matter, but the obsession with it by some just gets to me sometimes.

Of course our complex human society does not allow for caveman tactics in picking a mate.

Hmm... .  are you sure about that?  .  I've encountered a few cavemen in my lifetime.

Also most of us on here, especially in the beginning when things are most raw are searching for some sense to it all and will grasp at anything that sounds like our story.

This is very true and thank you for that reminder.

I know mine was… since she was very attractive (not just my opinion)

I like that you used the word "attractive."  And... .  of course our exes were not just attractive in our eyes.  There are a lot of attractive people in the world!

Absolutely, my ex was 'hot' not just my opinion, way out my league in terms of looks, and each time we argued and I left even just for a day,she would sleep around because she could.

What an absolutely UGLY thing to do.  I don't care what the outside package looks like - this is disgusting behavior - not pretty or attractive at all!

turtle

[trouble11]

Wow ... .  all this kinda puts you guys at a disadvantage.  If George Clooney walked up and hit on me, I would immediately know something was not right.  That would be a much more noticeable flag to me than anything my BPD presented.  That's not to say we don't appreciate attractive men.  IMO ... .  we just tend to play more in our own league.  I have also noticed this from time to time on dating sites.  I have a realistic view of my appearance, and I have several mirrors, so I don't wink at the "hottest" guys.  I'm more interested in the ones that are more at my level on the appearance scale.    It's all sort of fascinating.  

[jdcthunder14]

Turtle.

For me it is yes, just a word that is used by many men and women to describe attractive.

As to the hunky guy, of course not everyone does stuff like that but I have a few woman facebook friends that have and the comments almost always mention that he is so "hot."

Speaking of terrible behavior... .  at one point in the relationship with mine she told me of a time in her life when she was with a different guy every night, just dismissing them in the morning, she described herself as quite a btch. Funny that I was at all surprised that she cheated on me with such an skewed moral compass.

[jdcthunder14]

It may be an egotistical statement but mine wasn't out of my league... .  I have been with very attractive women before. Actually my ex and I talked about this very thing in the beginning. I told her that I was not going to be enamored by her looks and I most certainly wasn't looking for a trophy.

[turtle]

For me it is yes, just a word that is used by many men and women to describe attractive.

Okay.  I will think about changing my negative connotation for the word "hot."  I don't know though.  Something about that word feels very off to me.  Not only here, but in my own personal experiences and in our society as well.

Speaking of terrible behavior... .  at one point in the relationship with mine she told me of a time in her life when she was with a different guy every night, just dismissing them in the morning, she described herself as quite a btch. Funny that I was at all surprised that she cheated on me with such an skewed moral compass.

Well... .  we've all had that "a-ha" moment where we realize we shouldn't have been surprized when they behaved EXACTLY like they told us - or showed us - that they would. Sort of leaves you sitting in the corner feeling like a fool, doesn't it?  I know I felt like a total fool more times than I can count.

turtle

[turtle]

That's not to say we don't appreciate attractive men.  IMO ... .  we just tend to play more in our own league.  

I think this is a very insightful comment!

turtle

[turtle]

It may be an egotistical statement but mine wasn't out of my league... .  I have been with very attractive women before. Actually my ex and I talked about this very thing in the beginning. I told her that I was not going to be enamored by her looks and I most certainly wasn't looking for a trophy.

I don't think this is an egotistical statement.  I think it's an honest assessment.  Now... .  if you said "I've been with many "effing hot" women before,"  I would dismiss everything you said next.  .

[sunrising]

... .  made her BPD worse as attention and sex was so easy to come by. Think of a heroin addict trying to get sober, if heroin wasnt around, they would stand no choice but to try and get better, but if they could just go to the first guy they see and ask for some, its going to be a lot easier to use again (not a great metaphore ) and of course I would be pissed of at her antics and then we would argue and her BPD behaviors would be worse. She also would and probably has got into a relationship with the first guy who came along now as she is 'hot' and easily attracted him.

Also as a certain miss Monroe demonstrated, being 'hot' is one things, but being a hot woman that is in need of rescuing (BPD behavior) it really plays on a male's attraction[/quote]
I think Trevjim hit the nail on the head here, at least in my personal experience.  My exwBPD is very attractive by most people's accounts and a simple observation of her behavior since I've known her, as well as what I know about her behavior before us, shows me that her looks are a tremendous aide to her in being able to repeat her cycle.  She can end a relationship now and needn't wait a few hours for more men to come calling. All she has to do is change her Facebook relationship status to "single" and in come the requests; which is why she does that. I think it must be common for children, especially "pretty girls", to have their looks over-emphasized to a point where it is harmful to their emotional development.  I feel very confident this was the case with my ex, as I know her mother is a shallow person and no doubt contributed to this phenomenon.  Case in point: My ex was hospitalized for 5 days and diagnosed with BPD.  When she got out, we had a chance to talk for a few hours before she moved out and I started NC.  She shared with me the results of an exercise she had been asked to do by her Dr at the hospital.  He asked her to list her perceived strengths and weakness on a piece of paper.  #2 on the strengths side was "good hair".  I've come to realize that her looks are one of only a couple things she "knows" about herself.  Her job, her looks, and how she uses her looks to manipulate people would pretty much round out the list of what she knows about herself, in my opinion.  

[turtle]

She shared with me the results of an exercise she had been asked to do by her Dr at the hospital.  He asked her to list her perceived strengths and weakness on a piece of paper.  #2 on the strengths side was "good hair". 

Wow.  That is very sad.

[MaybeSo]

If I never see or hear the term Crazy Hot or Porn Star Sex again it would be a Good thing!

Men are more visual than women, and humans like and seek attractive partners.

However, the language we use says something about our values and beliefs. We speak of partners in Marketing/packaging terms today... .  it's become the norm. And, the standard for what is considered an attractive package has become so extreme that it's hard to achieve without surgical interventions... .  crazy hot doesn't really exist in nature. Associating a beloved partner with porno or being a profession sex worker 30 years ago would have been considered an insult... .  people still liked having sex with there wives 30 years ago... .  we got along fine without hardcore porn in your face 24/7 for centuries.

So is it any wonder we have unsatisfying relationship experiences with our target "package"? We all use to know at some level looks really don't matter... .  though we all chuckled at our instinct "to look".   Now it's changed to " looks matter the most" and gee... .  I hope theres a person there somewhere inside that package. Well, often there's not. That person is too busy lifting weights at the gym and fretting over how to get money for a boob job to develop a real sense of self. So, we get exactly that which we seek.

[turtle]

If I never see or hear the term Crazy Hot or Porn Star Sex again it would be a Good thing!

I so, so, so, agree!

So is it any wonder we have unsatisfying relationship experiences with our target "package"? We all use to know at some level looks really don't matter... .  though we all chuckled at our instinct "to look".   Now it's changed to " looks matter the most" and gee... .  I hope theres a person there somewhere inside that package. Well, often there's not. That person is too busy lifting weights at the gym and fretting over how to get money for a boob job to develop a real sense of self. So, we get exactly that which we seek.

Maybeso... .  Can I just say that I think you're fabulous?

[trevjim]

So is it any wonder we have unsatisfying relationship experiences with our target "package"? We all use to know at some level looks really don't matter... .  though we all chuckled at our instinct "to look".   Now it's changed to " looks matter the most" and gee... .  I hope theres a person there somewhere inside that package. Well, often there's not. That person is too busy lifting weights at the gym and fretting over how to get money for a boob job to develop a real sense of self. So, we get exactly that which we seek.

I think looks do matter, for me, there has got to be emotional and physical attraction. sure it can go so far and become shallow, and meat heads and barbie dolls are incredibly unattractive personalitys, but that doesnt mean we should just let ourselves go, I lift weights and do alot of cardio, 1 because i enjoy it, and 2 because I like to take care of my body. If i was posting pics of my body on facebook etc, then Its gone to far and to vanity. I like to take care of my body and i would expect my girlfriend to at least take some pride in how she looks

Ive gone on a date with an incredibly good looking girl, however she was soo boring i decided not to have a second one, where as I have also met some wonderful girls who are great to be around, yet Ive no physical attraction to them.

[jdcthunder14]

Well... .  we've all had that "a-ha" moment where we realize we shouldn't have been surprized when they behaved EXACTLY like they told us - or showed us - that they would. Sort of leaves you sitting in the corner feeling like a fool, doesn't it?  I know I felt like a total fool more times than I can count.

turtle

Oh absolutely... .  now that I think of it she did a whole lot of "warning" me about what was coming. That infatuation stage blinds a person a bit though.

[sunrising]

... .  the language we use says something about our values and beliefs. We speak of partners in Marketing/packaging terms today... .  it's become the norm. And, the standard for what is considered an attractive package has become so extreme that it's hard to achieve without surgical interventions... .  crazy hot doesn't really exist in nature.

I couldn't agree more.  I can see how the phenomenon you're describing CREATES BPD.  At least in the case of my ex, I can certainly see how she and her mother's (and likely others) focus on her physical appearance played a part in preventing her from developing emotionally. Why develop emotionally when you can lure in "any man you want" with your looks?  I can't imagine this isn't common and could be why BPD MAY be more common in women.  My experience is that boys tend to be more commonly accepted/ embraced by their family and peers for any # of attributes which are usually at least slightly less shallow than physical appearance.  I know I had/ have plenty of male friends who aren't physically attractive by conventional standards, but they're funny, entertaining,  talented, etc and, therefore, attract people.  With women, and particularly in the case of adolescent girls, it seems their looks are considered much more heavily by anyone attracted to them; even often in platonic relationships.  My personal theory is that this is why you hear a lot of people describing their BPDex as "hot".  Obviously I don't think my explanation encompasses all the factors, and I agree that our physical perception of them can be skewed by our own emotions,  but I can see how "pretty people" wind up developing BPD traits more often than "not-so-pretty" people.  We've all heard the phrase "she/ he gets by on their looks".  I can see how this phrase would apply to a lot of pwBPD and even see how it contributes to them "becoming" a pwBPD.       

[turtle]

Oh absolutely... .  now that I think of it she did a whole lot of "warning" me about what was coming. That infatuation stage blinds a person a bit though.

Yep.  Blind as a bat!

I think looks do matter, for me, there has got to be emotional and physical attraction. sure it can go so far and become shallow, and meat heads and barbie dolls are incredibly unattractive personalitys, but that doesnt mean we should just let ourselves go, I lift weights and do alot of cardio, 1 because i enjoy it, and 2 because I like to take care of my body. If i was posting pics of my body on facebook etc, then Its gone to far and to vanity. I like to take care of my body and i would expect my girlfriend to at least take some pride in how she looks

Ive gone on a date with an incredibly good looking girl, however she was soo boring i decided not to have a second one, where as I have also met some wonderful girls who are great to be around, yet Ive no physical attraction to them.

I think the bolded part is absolutely reasonable, trevjim.  Absolutely.  I also take care of myself and I would expect a partner to do the same.  

And your second paragraph here is exactly what I'm talking about.  This girl was "incredibly good looking," but you weren't attracted to her.  So... .  what makes your ex "crazy hot," so "hot" that you put up with such horrible behavior,  yet the incredibly attractive girl is boring.  THAT'S what needs to be examined.

This idea of "hot" is so over the top that it just gets to me sometimes.

There was a poster here who actually said to me. "I don't care that my gf treats me like ~, cheats on me, lies to me, betrays me, manipulates, and rages. She's so "hot," I'm willing to put up with it."  So... .  I asked to see a photo.  I thought that she was attractive, but certainly not over the top.  And in the photo I saw, she looked like a "slut" and that term fits her behavior.  All I could say to him was "well, you've made your choice... .  enjoy!"

Bottom line is we all have to define the fallacy of our own definitions about what is and isn't acceptable to us.  If a person decides that having a psychotic "hot" girl friend - and living in chaos, insecurity and insanity is more important than not being treated like crap... .  then that's their choice. They just shouldn't be surprised or hurt when they wear other people out by complaining about how horrible it all is.

I realize this works for women too, but it's usually in a different arena -- not looks.  I certainly had to come to terms with my own definitions about what is and isn't acceptable to me too - and I had to really define what my priorites were for a relationship.  And although mine didn't center around looks... .  some of the priorities I had were totally off kilter.

turtle

[trevjim]

And your second paragraph here is exactly what I'm talking about.  This girl was "incredibly good looking," but you weren't attracted to her.  So... .  what makes your ex "crazy hot," so "hot" that you put up with such horrible behavior,  yet the incredibly attractive girl is boring.  THAT'S what needs to be examined.

My ex attracted me emotionaly aswell. In hindsight it was probably mirroring. Either way we really got on a 'clicked' plus I had worked with her for a year and knew I got on as a friend.

Having been with her though, the fact she was so good looking was great for the physical side of the relationship, but it caused me so much paranoia which turned into jelousey when she would sleep about. So it is a double edged swoard when trust is an issued and when they betray any trust you do cling on to.

[struggli]

When I met my ex, I had been working in the downtown area where there are many glamorous, gorgeous model types.  I interacted with them nonstop, but only on a business level.  My intuitive sense tells me to stay away from 99% them.  I can smell the attitude.  I can tell they are they type that would only talk to someone wearing a suit and driving a BMW.  Maybe it's projection on my part.  Or maybe it's intuition.  I feel like I can tell when we are the same page with just a brief interaction.

Nevertheless, I met my ex in the same area.  And although she was maybe a 9 (to speak in our shallow male terms), her personality was welcoming, friendly, down to earth.  What she SEEMED to have on the inside made her more beautiful than any of those women.  I want someone I find visually AND intellectually/emotionally appealing.  I was immediately drawn to her because she seemed to have that core of a good, caring, warm person.  And to top it all off, she must've had the same vibe from me because she gave me her number without my asking.

She became the most beautiful woman in the world to me.  Even if I did look at other women, I never thought, "I would rather be with her instead."  For the first time ever I thought "I am completely satisfied."

However, as time went on, I could see that down to earth quality was actually part of her innocent-style seductiveness, which was very hard to accept.  The wolf in sheep's clothing thing.  I originally thought her display of wholesomeness and being genuine was a reflection of her inner values.  That's what  originally drew me to her -- my belief that she wasn't a self-absorbed, heartless, shallow person.

(And, in fact, she was very smart.  She wasn't a bimbo.  )

I soon realized she was open and welcoming to everyone, more than I was comfortable with experiencing.  She would let guys ask her out and then tell them they could be friends and exchange numbers.  She would hold hands with other guys.  She would tell other guys she'd just met about her FOO stuff (leading them to believe that she was disclosing very personal information and therefore intimately interested).  Basically, no boundaries.

So, over time, I began to feel she was "out of my league" because it seemed as if I was always having to compete with other males, like she wasn't satisfied with me enough to stop doing these things I asked her to stop doing. 

I firmly felt that it was partly her responsibility to make me feel secure by not doing those things.  Right?  I mean as a good partner would do, right?

Anyway, guys were always asking her out and she always had guys texting her, so I began to feel I wasn't up to par which dragged my self-esteem down.  But I think she will always do that no matter what (or so I like to believe in order to think it wasn't just me).

She was asked to move to NY to be a model by a talent agent.  She was/is gorgeous and gets a lot of attention.  She admitted once that she knows how to get guys to do "whatever she wants" which really pissed me off.  "Beautiful people get what they want, isn't that right?" she said to me one time.

All my friends/co-workers told me how HOT (yes, that word) she is.

But I never felt like she wasn't mine or I wasn't good enough until the facade of her being MY woman started falling apart to reveal that she is a flirt (possibly a cheater) with everyone else who makes eye contact with her.

Anyway, I'm ruminating about my own story and going off topic, right?

If the debate is just over the word "Hot", I don't think it's derogatory or means slutty or anything.  But apparently the term has different meanings from each gender's perspective.  In my experience, guys never say "beautiful, gorgeous, attractive".   We say "hot".  And we don't say 'woman."  We say "chick" or "girl"(not dependent upon age).  And we call each other "dude", "man", "bro", etc.  It's just all very informal and casual vernacular, that's all.  Or maybe it has something to do with our social class.  Maybe if we were poet laureates, we'd say "That's quite an attractive woman upon whose tender bosom I'd like to lie."

I agree that culture is enabling BPD (I even have a thread about it). (I haven't been able to watch porn since the BU 8 months ago.  All I see is disordered women the few times I've tried to watch.) I agree that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  Sometimes I'm surprised what other guys see as ATTRACTIVE is vastly different from what I see as attractive.  That's a good thing, I think.

I would've been OK with being the only person in the world who thought my ex was BEAUTIFUL.  People could have vomited at the sight of her and I would've been OK with that.  Because to me she was the only one for me -- well, initially at least.

Maybe if I'd been doing the biological caveman thing and shoving away all the other guys I'd have been more attractive to her?  Maybe I did my biological part of seeking out a WOMAN who was attractive to me, but didn't properly do the mate guarding thing?  I just figured a woman that loved her man would behave in such a way to not be building an entourage of suitors all the while.  Maybe that's distorted thinking to think I should be the only guy in her life.  Still coming down from the roller coaster high... .  

[seeking balance]

Turtle - this is an interesting thread... .  

We all like beauty, honestly.  Men are more visual and woman more emotional in general - but that is not 100% either.

IMHO - I think the people who talk so much about "hot", "porn star", etc on these board is because they are using something outside of themselves to make them feel better, important, that they matter.  It has become an external validation of their worth - maladaptive coping to pain.

Overall, we all like attractive people - but we all don't tie our self worth to that... .  

OK - how is that for starting some controversy!   

[trevjim]

When I met my ex, I had been working in the downtown area where there are many glamorous, gorgeous model types.  I interacted with them nonstop, but only on a business level.  My intuitive sense tells me to stay away from 99% them.  I can smell the attitude.  I can tell they are they type that would only talk to someone wearing a suit and driving a BMW.  Maybe it's projection on my part.  Or maybe it's intuition.  I feel like I can tell when we are the same page with just a brief interaction.

Nevertheless, I met my ex in the same area.  And although she was maybe a 9 (to speak in our shallow male terms), her personality was welcoming, friendly, down to earth.  What she SEEMED to have on the inside made her more beautiful than any of those women.  I want someone I find visually AND intellectually/emotionally appealing.  I was immediately drawn to her because she seemed to have that core of a good, caring, warm person.  And to top it all off, she must've had the same vibe from me because she gave me her number without my asking.

She became the most beautiful woman in the world to me.  Even if I did look at other women, I never thought, "I would rather be with her instead."  For the first time ever I thought "I am completely satisfied."

However, as time went on, I could see that down to earth quality was actually part of her innocent-style seductiveness, which was very hard to accept.  The wolf in sheep's clothing thing.  I originally thought her display of wholesomeness and being genuine was a reflection of her inner values.  That's what  originally drew me to her -- my belief that she wasn't a self-absorbed, heartless, shallow person.

(And, in fact, she was very smart.  She wasn't a bimbo.  )

I soon realized she was open and welcoming to everyone, more than I was comfortable with experiencing.  She would let guys ask her out and then tell them they could be friends and exchange numbers.  She would hold hands with other guys.  She would tell other guys she'd just met about her FOO stuff (leading them to believe that she was disclosing very personal information and therefore intimately interested).  Basically, no boundaries.

So, over time, I began to feel she was "out of my league" because it seemed as if I was always having to compete with other males, like she wasn't satisfied with me enough to stop doing these things I asked her to stop doing. 

I firmly felt that it was partly her responsibility to make me feel secure by not doing those things.  Right?  I mean as a good partner would do, right?

Anyway, guys were always asking her out and she always had guys texting her, so I began to feel I wasn't up to par which dragged my self-esteem down.  But I think she will always do that no matter what (or so I like to believe in order to think it wasn't just me).

She was asked to move to NY to be a model by a talent agent.  She was/is gorgeous and gets a lot of attention.  She admitted once that she knows how to get guys to do "whatever she wants" which really pissed me off.  "Beautiful people get what they want, isn't that right?" she said to me one time.

All my friends/co-workers told me how HOT (yes, that word) she is.

But I never felt like she wasn't mine or I wasn't good enough until the facade of her being MY woman started falling apart to reveal that she is a flirt (possibly a cheater) with everyone else who makes eye contact with her.

Anyway, I'm ruminating about my own story and going off topic, right?

If the debate is just over the word "Hot", I don't think it's derogatory or means slutty or anything.  But apparently the term has different meanings from each gender's perspective.  In my experience, guys never say "beautiful, gorgeous, attractive".   We say "hot".  And we don't say 'woman."  We say "chick" or "girl"(not dependent upon age).  And we call each other "dude", "man", "bro", etc.  It's just all very informal and casual vernacular, that's all.  Or maybe it has something to do with our social class.  Maybe if we were poet laureates, we'd say "That's quite an attractive woman upon whose tender bosom I'd like to lie."

I agree that culture is enabling BPD (I even have a thread about it). (I haven't been able to watch porn since the BU 8 months ago.  All I see is disordered women the few times I've tried to watch.) I agree that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  Sometimes I'm surprised what other guys see as ATTRACTIVE is vastly different from what I see as attractive.  That's a good thing, I think.

I would've been OK with being the only person in the world who thought my ex was BEAUTIFUL.  People could have vomited at the sight of her and I would've been OK with that.  Because to me she was the only one for me -- well, initially at least.

Maybe if I'd been doing the biological caveman thing and shoving away all the other guys I'd have been more attractive to her?  Maybe I did my biological part of seeking out was attractive to me, but didn't properly do the mate guarding thing?  I just figured a woman that loved her man would behave in such a way to not be building an entourage of suitors.  Maybe that's distorted thinking.  Still coming down from the BPD high... .  

Great post.

Sound like we dated the same girl!

Wolf in sheep's clothing is a very good description. My ex was also incredibly smart, and if hit on would take numbers etc, and was proud of the fact she could manipulate men.

She would also be very warming and friendly to peope, but nasty to myself and her mother etc.

These are all BPD traits though.

And yes, culture and class can have an outcome on what words we use.

               

[JonnyJon42]

What i would like to know is what happens to them when beauty fades.

Seems alot of the BPD women use looks to get what they want ( mine does all the time ) so what do they do when the looks fade. I know im not a good looking guy but for people who use there looks to get validation seems like that would be a very very scarey thought.

From what i have seen with women like men go off looks alot more when younger. What ive noticed is mid 20's for alot of women that shifts to i need more then just looks not to say that it dont happen with men i think at some point we all start looking for more then just a good body and pretty face.

Just my 2 cents

[turtle]

She became the most beautiful woman in the world to me.  Even if I did look at other women, I never thought, "I would rather be with her instead."  For the first time ever I thought "I am completely satisfied."

I bolded the word "became" because that's how getting to know people - whether romantically or otherwise - goes.  We see people and judge them based on what we see.  Isn't the statistic something like, you make your impression of a person within 3 seconds of meeting them?  I could be wrong about that, but I seem to remember reading that somewhere.  Anyway, as we get to know a person, that's when they BECOME beautiful, ugly, friendly, fun, boring, etc.

I soon realized she was open and welcoming to everyone, more than I was comfortable with experiencing.  She would let guys ask her out and then tell them they could be friends and exchange numbers.  She would hold hands with other guys.  She would tell other guys she'd just met about her FOO stuff (leading them to believe that she was disclosing very personal information and therefore intimately interested).  Basically, no boundaries.

Absolutely no boundaries and NOT COOL!

So, over time, I began to feel she was "out of my league" because it seemed as if I was always having to compete with other males, like she wasn't satisfied with me enough to stop doing these things I asked her to stop doing.

I firmly felt that it was partly her responsibility to make me feel secure by not doing those things.  Right?  I mean as a good partner would do, right?

 

You never should have had to ask her to stop.  It never should have been happening in the first place!

But I never felt like she wasn't mine or I wasn't good enough until the facade of her being MY woman started falling apart to reveal that she is a flirt (possibly a cheater) with everyone else who makes eye contact with her.

And there it is... .  the facade. Bleh.

If the debate is just over the word "Hot", I don't think it's derogatory or means slutty or anything.  But apparently the term has different meanings from each gender's perspective.  In my experience, guys never say "beautiful, gorgeous, attractive".   We say "hot".  And we don't say 'woman."  We say "chick" or "girl"(not dependent upon age).  And we call each other "dude", "man", "bro", etc.  It's just all very informal and casual vernacular, that's all.  Or maybe it has something to do with our social class.  Maybe if we were poet laureates, we'd say "That's quite an attractive woman upon whose tender bosom I'd like to lie."

Okay... .  this is a good point.  I don't like the word "dude" either.  .  Especially when women call each other "dude."  It just sounds ridiculous to me.

I agree that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  Sometimes I'm surprised what other guys see as ATTRACTIVE is vastly different from what I see as attractive.  That's a good thing, I think.

It IS a good thing.  I just find it curious that the people who refer to their exes as "hot" are usually convinced that the rest of us just don't really get how "hot" she is.  Maybe that's what bugs.  I don't know... .  all I know is it sure bugs!  And... .  every time -- without fail -- that I've seen a picture of the supposedly "hot" girl, I am completely underwhelmed and end up thinking.  So... .  this is what this man is giving up his dignity for?

I just figured a woman that loved her man would behave in such a way to not be building an entourage of suitors.  Maybe that's distorted thinking.  Still coming down from the BPD high... .  

I don't think this is distorted thinking at all.  I think it's odd for a person (male or female) to be building an entourage of suitors.  It's extremely disrespectful.  If a person feels they need to do that, then they shouldn't be in a relationship. And... .  I think it's odd for a person to build an entourage of suitors even when they aren't in a relationship. 

[struggli]

What i would like to know is what happens to them when beauty fades.

Seems alot of the BPD women use looks to get what they want ( mine does all the time ) so what do they do when the looks fade. I know im not a good looking guy but for people who use there looks to get validation seems like that would be a very very scarey thought.

From what i have seen with women like men go off looks alot more when younger. What ive noticed is mid 20's for alot of women that shifts to i need more then just looks not to say that it dont happen with men i think at some point we all start looking for more then just a good body and pretty face.

Just my 2 cents

They become bitter and angry from what I've read on here about the older BPD types.  Some commit suicide.

Or, alternatively, maybe find a new angle to manipulate.  Play up the victim role more, become more promiscuous, turn to more aggressive conning.

Oh.  Some work on themselves.

[turtle]

IMHO - I think the people who talk so much about "hot", "porn star", etc on these board is because they are using something outside of themselves to make them feel better, important, that they matter.  It has become an external validation of their worth - maladaptive coping to pain.

I think there is a lot of truth to this. 

I don't think it's bad to talk about physical beauty or attractiveness.  In fact, I think it's an important part of our lives.  However, there are sure a lot of folks who tend to get stuck on that one theme!

What i would like to know is what happens to them when beauty fades.

From what i have seen with women like men go off looks alot more when younger. What ive noticed is mid 20's for alot of women that shifts to i need more then just looks not to say that it dont happen with men i think at some point we all start looking for more then just a good body and pretty face.

I think as a "hot" person ages... .  if they haven't come to terms with who they really are and what is really important ... .  life gets very bleak.

I think with maturity, the definitions of a good body and a pretty face become very different. 

What used to be attractive to me in a man is very different now than it was when I was in my 20's - that's for sure! 


turtle

[willy45]

PART 1:

Turtle... .  This is an excellent question. Let me start off by saying that my thoughts about how 'hot' my ex is is completely not based in any reality. None. The last time I saw her I thought she looked like an old lady. But in my mind, she is the 'hottest' thing in the world. So, I agree with you. This has nothing to do with objectivity.

WARNING... .  THIS WILL BE GRAPHIC:

Here is my story... .  from the beginning. It hurts to tell. But I hope it helps:

When I first got involved with my ex, she seduced me. She seduced me hard. I was in a committed long-term relationship at the time. But she seduced me like crazy. At first, it seemed like harmless flirting. But it kept going. I was attracted to her. Sure. She was pretty. Smart. Funny. We got along incredibly well. She had long wavy red hair (dyed), long legs, beautiful green eyes. perfect breasts. She looked like a femme fatale from 1950s movies. I thought she was kind of 'hot' but I didn't think she was insanely good looking or anything. I didn't think she was totally out of the ordinary in terms of attractiveness. But, I thought she was attractive. The seduction started when we began to hang out. She would wear sexy clothing and show off her body while pretending not to do it. If I would check her out, she would give me a coy little look like what I was doing was wrong but she liked it. One day, she asked me if I had ever cheated on anyone before. I said no. She kind of looked at me like I was insane. I thought the question was weird but didn't think anything of it. A few days later, she got in a fight with her roommate and asked if she could crash at my place. She seemed pretty distraught. I said sure, I could sleep on the couch. Somehow, I don't remember how, we both ended up sleeping in the same bed. She kind of curled up next to me. I held her. She smelled amazing. Her skin was really soft. Her hair was brushed up against my cheek. And we fell asleep. Nothing sexual happened but it was insanely erotic.

The next day, I was heading back to see my girlfriend. I felt absolutely terrible and elated at the same time. I had connected with this person on such an intimate level. It was beyond sex. We didn't have sex. She was just so close to me. When I saw my girlfriend, I told her that I needed some time apart. She freaked out (as she should have). I thought I was going to be with this new girl. We had such a connection. A couple of days later, this new woman called me and told me she was staying with her boyfriend (someone who as 25 years older than her and who she claimed was an abusive alcoholic). I was devastated. I got back together with my girlfriend and chalked it up to a mental lapse. I stayed friends with the BPD ex and we continued to have a really deep connection. We ended up spending a few days together here and there. Nothing sexual. Just close connecting. This went on for about a year. I knew it was bad news. But we had a really great time together.

One night, her boyfriend finally dumped her. She had cheated on him with 3 or 4 other guys and he had enough. He dumped her. I was around so she called me and I went over to help her out. She tried to kiss me. I told her no. We kissed for about 30 seconds and then I pushed her off me and told her this wasn't right. She left in a panic. I left too. Scared. But oddly turned on.

We stayed friends for the next several months. I was working on my Master's thesis. She encouraged me and we spent a good deal of time together but I was struggling to get it done. One day, she told me: "I have amazing boobs. If you finish your Master's thesis, I will show you my boobs."

Ok. So. I am a man. And I can't say this didn't get me. Of course I wanted to see amazing boobs. But I said no. Over the next few months, she kept making it a joke and it became a joke between us. It seemed harmless but kind of turned me on. Then one day, she said it again and said that this time she meant it. I called her bluff. I really didn't think she would do anything. It was part of our joking around and I called her on it. And she lifted up her shirt and said if I finished my thesis, there would be more. At this point, she had gotten back together with her 'abusive ex'. I was still with my girlfriend. This put me into a tailspin. She did indeed have great boobs. And her whole coy, seducer thing combined with our seemingly amazing connection was intoxicating. I knew it was wrong. But I was seduced. The next several times I saw her, she would keep teasing me. She would lift up her shirt and do the dishes and pretend like nothing was going on. She would come to the door barely dressed and walk around like there was nothing going on. She would tease me. One day, I was in her room and she told me she wanted to show me some clothes she bought. She came out in some lingerie and walked around like there was nothing going. She would bend over and pose for me. And then she would walk away and then change into another outfit. And she would do the same thing. She changed into about 3 or 4 different outfits. I was brimming with lust and she could obviously tell. But I didn't want to do anything. I was extremely confused. I wanted her to stop and I didn't at the same time. I just didn't understand what was going on. And this is where it gets weird... .  GRAPHIC WARNING! I was leaving and she told me to come back and she told me to sit down to talk. I did (I was in a haze of lust and endorphins... .  ). She then asked me why I wasn't f*&$ing her and that I obviously wasn't a man and then she proceeded to masturbate in front me all the while telling me that I wasn't allowed to touch her. When she was done, she said she was sleepy and she went to bed. Needless to say... .  I was HOOKED. With every meeting, the boundaries got continually lowered. I was absolutely overcome with lust. Yeah. I thought she was 'attractive' before but nothing out of the ordinary. I thought she had great boobs and nice legs. I liked her hair and she had really pretty eyes... .  but as they say... .  'crazy eyes'. That's pretty much it.  I never saw her and thought she was drop dead gorgeous or striking or beautiful. She was in the classification of 'attractive' but not over the top. But now. Holy cow. After that, she was the 'hottest' thing I had ever seen.

I broke up with my girlfriend at the time. And me and my BPD ex had a torrid love affair. The sexual tension that had built up exploded. And she continued to seduce me. Each time we had sex, the seduction was greater and greater and greater. It started off kind of crazy (as you can see above) and it got crazier. She fulfilled my every fantasy. It is like she studied pornography in order to mimic it. In fact, I'm sure she did this. She told me so. And whenever there was lull, she would amp it up even more.

The entire time, I knew this girl had issues. They were obvious. Father abanonded her, mother was crazy, brother went to jail for selling crack, and on and on. The usual BPD stuff. And I knew I should stay away. But I was hooked. It was like an addiction. I had never felt that kind of incredible high before. We would have sex all the time. We had sex 8 times one night. Yes. 8. As a man, I didn't think that was physically possible. But, apparently it is. And we would have phone sex on top of this. Yes. Unbelievable but true.

After about 3 months of this, I broke it off. I couldn't take it any more. She started to be a bit crazy and started talking about having a family with me and wanting to grow old with me. And that freaked me out. I also thought it might be good for her to heal from her past 'abusive' relationship. I didn't want it to go on. So I broke up with her.

For about a year, we remained friends. Sort of. I told her that I didn't want to talk to her. 6 weeks later she called with some sob story. I got reeled back in trying to help her. I felt guilty for having this love affair with her and then ditching her. For the next year, we stayed pretty close friends. I kind of felt like I was doing it out of pity. She broke her leg. She broke her foot. We were both in grad school living out of town and she didn't have any friends or family. So I drove her around. I cooked for her. I took care of her. During this time, I never slept with her. I never wanted to. I didn't find her attractive at all. She was kind of this gross mess that would follow me around like a puppy dog. A sad, dysfunctional, broken puppy dog. She kept telling me we where meant to be together and that it was like we were in a Shakespearean drama of unrequited love. I thought she was crazy.

Fast forward another year. I was single. It was valentine's day. She was single. She called to see if we could hang out on valentine's day because it was a ___ty day to be alone. I said sure. She could come over to my place and we could watch a movie. She did. Somehow, we ended up having sex. I don't remember the details. It wasn't all that great. But I was hooked again. And the sex started to get amped up. I would try to break up with her and stop it over and over and over again. But we would hook up every few weeks. Each time, I would tell her I couldn't do it anymore. But somehow we still did. After several months of that, I just gave up and we entered into a more formal relationship. I was addicted to the sex. She had become the 'hottest' thing I had ever seen. The sex we had was like nothing I had ever experienced before. And the CRAZY thing about all this... .  I wasn't really even attracted to her! She had become this crazy hot sex goddess in my mind but in reality, I wasn't even attracted to her. On a deep, deep level, I thought she was nuts and her neediness was totally a turn off.

But, I was in grad school. As was she. She was leaving. So was I. I figured I was safe. That it was just easier to have crazy awesome sex and that the relationship would end and she would leave and I would leave and that would be that.

Enter more crazy sex... .  

We didn't officially break up the summer we both went home. She talked about moving back with me. I told her no. She went back home. We would have phone sex every now and again but nothing much. She would continually try to seduce me. I think she could sense I wasn't interested long term (I told her as such). Then she started to amp up the sex. She found this other woman that was super hot. And she told me she was going to have a fling with her and then call me afterwards to tell me how it was. Ok. Admittedly, a stupid male fantasy. But, a male fantasy come to life. I was on board. Why not? I thought. This sounded great and she lived thousands of miles away so why not? What could it hurt? And holy cow was it was it ever hot. Seriously. I would get photos. I would get phone calls. I would get detailed accounts. And she would tell me this while having phone sex with her. Ever adventure she had with this other woman was increasingly hot.

And that sucked me back in. Obviously. And now I was desperate to see her. The sex was now even more over the top. I became more addicted. She would tell me to come visit her and we could have threesomes. So I did. But they didn't materialize. But she would constantly hang that over my head. Dangle it like a carrot. But she would still dress up in all kinds of outfits and do the craziest things. She would seduce me like no other I have ever been with. It was literally like I was living in a porn, like this woman just stepped out of a sexy magazine and was there for my pleasure. And she would get off on the power which made her even sexier to me. She now had complete control over me. That was it. I was done. Cooked. I couldn't fight it any longer. And the long-distance relationship commenced.

I would put up with all the drama. All the neediness. All the abuse. All the chaos. I would just put up with it. The sex started to be used as a tool of control. She would dangle it in front of me and then tell me that I had to love her first. She would put me through all these tests like looking deeply into my eyes to see if I loved her. She would ask me incessant questions about my devotion to her. She would tell me all the things she loved about me and then get upset that my list wasn't as long as hers. I would do anything and put up with anything to just get the sex back. And she knew that. And she would get angry at me for 'grabbing at her' and she would get angry at me for me 'not finding her attractive anymore'. The usual confusing BPD mess and chaos. Pretty typical I can see now. Back then, it was a confusing ___ show. It made me feel terrible about myself.

After the abuse kept getting worse and worse and worse, I checked out. I didn't care anymore. I was still addicted to the sex but I didn't feel like putting up with abuse any more. At the time, I didn't label it as abuse. I just decided that there was nothing I could do about things anymore. That there was nothing I could say anymore. I couldn't engage with her to make anything better. I gave up. And the abuse got worse and worse and worse after that. One day after raging at me and she could tell I was giving up, she says: "I will have sex with another woman again if you like". She said that to me totally out of the blue. I wasn't interested. I thought that was madness. Doing something so potentially destabilizing while she was raging at me all day. It turned me off.

Now, the craziness... .  You guys ready for this? This is where I got completely insane. And this is what explains the 'hotness' thing.

I stopped trying to make things better in the relationship in order to get the sex back. I realized that there was nothing I could do anymore to make this relationship work. She came screeching down the stairs one night yelling at me that I just though she was a 'Crazy F'ing btch'. I wasn't thinking that. I was watching TV and not even thinking about her. But I looked at her and said, 'I didn't before, but now I do". And that was the truth. So I checked out. But I would fantasize about her. I would fantasize about her when she wasn't there. I would fantasize about her when she was with me. I would fantasize about her when we were having sex. Yes. You read that right. I would fantasize about have sex with her DURING sex. I couldn't get off with her unless I fantasized about her. And she would engage with me about them. She would help me fantasize about her while we were having sex. Think about that... .  and start to think about what that would do to a person's perceptions of another.

[willy45]

Part II: 


At this point, she truly was super human. She became dislocated from reality. She no longer lived in the world. She because this almighty entity that defined my sexuality. Every thought of sex had to do with her. Everything. She was it. The fantasies knew no boundaries. I could explore every facet of my sexuality with her as the main actor. This was easier for me to do than actually have sex with her. She would go to work and I was excited about that because it gave me the chance to fantasize about her. Seriously. I would RATHER fantasize about her. Even when she was in the room. I completely disassociated the reality of who she was and replaced it with a fantasy. I remember her just lying there doing some work and I fantasized about her while she lay next to me.

This fantasy is so incredibly and deeply engrained in me now. It is all consuming. Nobody can ever live up to it. Not even her. Seriously. That is how messed up I have become. The only thing that does it for me is this fantasy of a person who doesn't even exist, who never existed, who will never exist. A super human goddess of 'hotness'. I just wanted that high back. And this is what my mind did to get it back and keep it.

And that is part of the illness that I am now living with, as I am sure many of the other men on the board are also living with. The 'hot' person in our minds doesn't and never did exist. For me, this 'hot' person was built up as a direct result of the seduction and the abuse. It became my way of coping, my escape, my way to hold onto this person, my way of continuing to hold onto her. It is my way of dealing with the pain of what I was going through. It was a deal with the devil. I gave up my self for this fantasy that didn't even exist. I would put up with the worst kind of emotional abuse so that I could live in this fantasy, so that I could continue to have sex. And this sex wasn't even with another person. This sex was with this super human non-person that only lived as a construct in my mind. My mind created it. I was groomed for it. It is now wired like this. And it was used to control me, to accept the raging and the abuse and the demands.

So don't be offended by the remarks on 'hotness'. I'm sure many of the men will be able to relate to my story. This is the impact that it has had on me. And it sucks. It is horrible. It is hideous. My ex abused me. She took the one thing away from me that was precious. My sense of self. My sense of self-worth. My own ability to perceive the world and make judgements about it. My ability to love myself. My entire sense of sexuality. Everything I think and do is in reference to her because that is how I was trained and that is what I have been doing. And sex is an overpowering and deeply important part of who a person is. I am no longer heterosexual. I am unisexual. I am only attracted to one thing. And that one thing is a fantasy of a person who abused me, who took from me, who raged at me, who belittled me, who gaslighted me, who criticized me, who scared me. My sexuality is now no longer my own. It was taken for me. And I gave it up.

That is what 'hotness' is about. Doesn't seem so 'hot', does it?